italo:


Here are the questions, hoping you are ready to give a sincere answer this time.

1. Does the visible Church hold on to millions of contradictory doctrines, as is seen today among those who claim to be Christians and claim to partake in the sacraments you mentioned?


2. Does the invisible Church hold on to millions of contradictory doctrines?

You still see the Church as a number of denominations and buildings.
Is like am speaking one language and you are speaking another. We won't understand each other and I hate arguing.

Am saying this again with love, "you need to have a revelation of what the Church is ".

Hiswordxray:


You still see the Church as a number of denominations and buildings.
Is like am speaking one language and you are speaking another. We won't understand each other and I hate arguing.

Am saying this again with love, "you need to have a revelation of what the Church is ".

Actually he hasn't uttered a word about denominations or buildings. It's a straight forward question. Can there be a plethora of contradictory doctrines within the church or not? It is a simple Yes, or no, answer. Or may a simple Yes, No, or 'It's Complicated answer'. I don't know if he'll accept it's complicated but I would accept it because I would love to delve into the complications.

PastorAIO:


Actually he hasn't uttered a word about denominations or buildings. It's a straight forward question. Can there be a plethora of contradictory doctrines within the church or not? It is a simple Yes, or no, answer. Or may a simple Yes, No, or 'It's Complicated answer'. I don't know if he'll accept it's complicated but I would accept it because I would love to delve into the complications.

italo referred specifically to MILLIONS of contradictory doctrines. The word 'doctrine' itself is used loosely. On difference in opinions, i think even family members have different opinions and understanding on several issues, it doesn't mean they are not family. The same thing with church. You may want to consider what is major and what is minor. Are there millions of contradictory doctrines on who is the way to eternal life? Etc. It's either one believes there is hell or there's no hell. There are no million beliefs in that, just about two or so.

Image123:


italo referred specifically to MILLIONS of contradictory doctrines. The word 'doctrine' itself is used loosely. On difference in opinions, i think even family members have different opinions and understanding on several issues, it doesn't mean they are not family. The same thing with church. You may want to consider what is major and what is minor. Are there millions of contradictory doctrines on who is the way to eternal life? Etc. It's either one believes there is hell or there's no hell. There are no million beliefs in that, just about two or so.

Good, in addition the catholic believes there are many ways to God in far contrast to the orthodox doctrine of ONE way TO THE Father through Jesus Christ.

Image123:


italo referred specifically to MILLIONS of contradictory doctrines. The word 'doctrine' itself is used loosely. On difference in opinions, i think even family members have different opinions and understanding on several issues, it doesn't mean they are not family. The same thing with church. You may want to consider what is major and what is minor. Are there millions of contradictory doctrines on who is the way to eternal life? Etc. It's either one believes there is hell or there's no hell. There are no million beliefs in that, just about two or so.

There are only 2 beliefs on the subject of hell. 1, there is no hell. and 2, there is hell. That one is not rocket science.

Are there millions of contradictory doctrines on who is the way to eternal life?

apparently so. Of course there are many that bandy the name Jesus about, but that does not mean that they are talking about the same thing. 'In Jesus name' is now just a formula that people tag on to the end of prayers to give the prayer more oomph!

Doctrine, the word, can be used loosely to mean any number of things. For example you yourself are now using it to mean opinions and understanding, and to be fair to you, such usage has precedents. But I believe that the way that it is used in Church history and in this present case is in it's original etymological sense of TEACHING (from Latin docere, to teach).

Can the church have different contradictory teachings?

italo:


Does this "Church" include all the millions of "denominations" and ministers that are teaching millions of contradictory doctrines...or are they excluded?

Do you mean the universal or local church?

italo:


1. Does the visible Church hold on to millions of contradictory doctrines, as is seen today among those who claim to be Christians and claim to partake in the sacraments you mentioned?


2. Does the invisible Church hold on to millions of contradictory doctrines?

This article satisfies all your objections including that of the OP.

"In the early 1500s, a German monk named Martin Luther was so conscious of his sins that he spent up to six hours in the confessional. Through study of the Scriptures he found that salvation didn't come through anything he did, but simply through trusting in the finished work of the cross of Jesus Christ. He listed the contradictions between what the Scriptures said and what his church taught, and nailed his "95 Thesis" to the church door in Wittenberg, Germany.

Martin Luther became the first to "protest" against the Roman church, and thus he became the father of the Protestant church. Since that split, there have been many disagreements about how much water one should baptise with, how to sing what and why, who should govern who, etc, causing thousands of splinter groups. Many of these groups are convinced that they alone are right. These have become known as Protestant "denominations." Despite the confusion, these churches subscribe to certain foundational beliefs such as the deity, death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ. The Bible says, "The foundation of God stands sure, having this seal, The Lord knows them that are his (2 Timothy 2:19)"

"Thomas Jefferson once wrote of a preacher, Richard Mote, "who "exclaimed aloud to his congregation that he did not believe there was a Quaker, Presbyterian, Methodist or Baptist in heaven, having paused to give his hearers time to stare and to wonder. He added that, in heaven, God knew no distinctions"

"For the Lord knows the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish" (Psalms 1:6).- The Evidence Bible.

OLAADEGBU:


This article satisfies all your objections including that of the OP.

I didnt raise objections. I only asked two 'yes or no' questions.

Neither the article nor you hypocrites have answered.

OLAADEGBU:


Do you mean the universal or local church?

I mean the one you described thus:

In summary, the church is not a building or a denomination. According to the Bible, the church is the body of Christ—all those who have placed their faith in Jesus Christ for salvation (John 3:16; 1 Corinthians 12:13).

Does this "Church" include all the millions of "denominations" and ministers that are teaching millions of contradictory doctrines...or are they excluded?

Hiswordxray:


You still see the Church as a number of denominations and buildings.
Is like am speaking one language and you are speaking another. We won't understand each other and I hate arguing.

Am saying this again with love, "you need to have a revelation of what the Church is ".

I dont see the Church as a number of denominations and buildings. Stop heaping lies against me because you are trying to dodge my simple questions.

1. Does the visible Church hold on to millions of contradictory doctrines, as is seen today among those who claim to be Christians and claim to partake in the sacraments you mentioned?


2. Does the invisible Church hold on to millions of contradictory doctrines?

Image123:


italo referred specifically to MILLIONS of contradictory doctrines. The word 'doctrine' itself is used loosely. On difference in opinions, i think even family members have different opinions and understanding on several issues, it doesn't mean they are not family. The same thing with church. You may want to consider what is major and what is minor. Are there millions of contradictory doctrines on who is the way to eternal life? Etc. It's either one believes there is hell or there's no hell. There are no million beliefs in that, just about two or so.

There is nothing hypocrites wont do.

Ok,



1. Does the visible Church hold on to contradictory doctrines (teachings), as is seen today among those who claim to be Christians and claim to partake in the sacraments mentioned?


2. Does the invisible Church hold on to contradictory doctrines (teachings)?

Bidam:
Good, in addition the catholic believes there are many ways to God in far contrast to the orthodox doctrine of ONE way TO THE Father through Jesus Christ.

You seem to believe that Catholic doctrine is false, so is the Catholic Church a part of the Church?

Yes or No.

PastorAIO:


There are only 2 beliefs on the subject of hell. 1, there is no hell. and 2, there is hell. That one is not rocket science.



apparently so. Of course there are many that bandy the name Jesus about, but that does not mean that they are talking about the same thing. 'In Jesus name' is now just a formula that people tag on to the end of prayers to give the prayer more oomph!

Doctrine, the word, can be used loosely to mean any number of things. For example you yourself are now using it to mean opinions and understanding, and to be fair to you, such usage has precedents. But I believe that the way that it is used in Church history and in this present case is in it's original etymological sense of TEACHING (from Latin docere, to teach).

Can the church have different contradictory teachings?

These crafty people who are finding it difficult to face up to such simple questions sincerely...do you think they are being Christ like?

It seems to me that their hearts are shaded with deceit.

Just saying.

italo:


You seem to believe that Catholic doctrine is false, so is the Catholic Church a part of the Church?

Yes or No.

A circular argument you have been parading for years will lead you nowhere, if you really are a honest seeker for the truth. Refer:

Enigma:
Also if people say because churches (NOT "religious institutions", NOT "ecclessial communities" or any such nonsensical Roman Catholic construct), that because churches have different "doctrines" they cannot be the Church or part of the Church, then the same thing can be said of the Roman Catholic denomination or organisation.

The Roman Catholic denomination or organisation clearly has doctrines that are not only contrary to the Bible but are even anti-Christ e.g. its doctrine that no one can be saved unless s/he submits to the Roman Catholic "pope". That particular doctrine is even more idiotic when we know that some of the Roman Catholic "popes" were not even Christians at all, some were never ordained as priest before they were made "pope", some were buying and selling the "pope" thing, some turned the "pope" palace and kingdom into a den of whoredom and debauchery.

These are the people claiming to be the "only Church". Yeah right! Utter nonsense.

https://www.nairaland.com/1478018/why-churches-different-doctrines-denominations/2

Bidam:
A circular argument you have been parading for years will lead you nowhere, if you really are a honest seeker for the truth. Refer: https://www.nairaland.com/1478018/why-churches-different-doctrines-denominations/2

I haven't made any arguments. I only asked you a question which neither you, nor the essay you posted, answered.

My direct question to you, Bidam, not Enigmar was:

You seem to believe that Catholic doctrine is false, so is the Catholic Church a part of the Church?

Yes or No.

PastorAIO:


There are only 2 beliefs on the subject of hell. 1, there is no hell. and 2, there is hell. That one is not rocket science.

So at least in this instance, there are only two contradictory views or understandings, not millions.

apparently so. Of course there are many that bandy the name Jesus about, but that does not mean that they are talking about the same thing. 'In Jesus name' is now just a formula that people tag on to the end of prayers to give the prayer more oomph!

We are not referring to false teachers and co. We are talking about the church. People who are MEMBERS of the church and the possibility or reason for having different understandings on some issues.

Doctrine, the word, can be used loosely to mean any number of things. For example you yourself are now using it to mean opinions and understanding, and to be fair to you, such usage has precedents. But I believe that the way that it is used in Church history and in this present case is in it's original etymological sense of TEACHING (from Latin docere, to teach).

Can the church have different contradictory teachings?

Yes and No. Like i said earlier, there are different aspects of life, and different perspectives and understandings to life. We can both be in the same class, taught by the same person, and not write the exact same thing in a test, even though we were told the exact same thing. We may both pass that test and be certified as professors and masters in that course. Very possible. The point is that there CAN BE differences and we still belong in the same class. Same thing with a family. You might not agree with your brother, your mother, your sister, your mother on everything. That doesn't mean you are not family. In fact, you might actually be contradictory on some issues, don't mean you're not blood.Your blood is thicker than your water as it were. In the church(the body of Christ), there exists something similar. Individuals and groups might have different and differing viewpoints and understanding on some issues. However, you would hardly find disagreement on salient issues of the faith.
Jesus is Lord from yesterday till forever, anybody with a different view to that is NOT a member of the body of Christ. Jesus died for our sins. Without faith, it is impossible to please God. Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved. these are fundamental truths. You cannot have millions of contradictory opinions about these.

italo:
I didnt raise objections. I only asked two 'yes or no' questions.

Neither the article nor you hypocrites have answered.

Jesus Himself was asked some seemingly 'yes or no' questions, He wasn't gullible to tempters. Not every yes or no question would get a yes or no answer. Take that as moral lesson from the story.

Joh 8:4 They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.
Joh 8:5 Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?

Luk 20:22 Is it lawful for us to give tribute unto Caesar, or no?

italo:


There is nothing hypocrites wont do.

Where are the hypocrites and what are their hypocrisies?

Ok,



1. Does the visible Church hold on to contradictory doctrines (teachings), as is seen today among those who claim to be Christians and claim to partake in the sacraments mentioned?


2. Does the invisible Church hold on to contradictory doctrines (teachings)?

Good to see you remove the erroneous, exaggerated 'millions'. The visible church, which i guess to be every church building or denomination, is not necessarily the true church. For instance, the Roman Catholic church is currently confused and contradictory on whether gays should be priests or not, and on even evolution. Do you think this makes the Catholic church a false church?
i cannot see the invisible church, but like i explained to AIO, members of the body of Christ might be different in outlook and function, and may even share differing perspectives and understandings in some teachings. But when it comes to the weighty, major, salient issues, there is no contradiction. Jesus is Lord.

italo:


I dont see the Church as a number of denominations and buildings. Stop heaping lies against me because you are trying to dodge my simple questions.

1. Does the visible Church hold on to millions of contradictory doctrines, as is seen today among those who claim to be Christians and claim to partake in the sacraments you mentioned?


2. Does the invisible Church hold on to millions of contradictory doctrines?

If you want an answer so badly here it is:
But first I didn't mention anything about the visible and invisible Church. I only talked about the Church.
The Church am talking about is a living body. A body does not need doctrine. Or do you need doctrine for your body to function?
All the body does is to express the person or the life in it. All the Church does is to express the life in it. The Church is not an organization that needs law but a body that expresses Christ.

Image123:

So at least in this instance, there are only two contradictory views or understandings, not millions.




We are not referring to false teachers and co. We are talking about the church. People who are MEMBERS of the church and the possibility or reason for having different understandings on some issues.





Yes and No. Like i said earlier, there are different aspects of life, and different perspectives and understandings to life. We can both be in the same class, taught by the same person, and not write the exact same thing in a test, even though we were told the exact same thing. We may both pass that test and be certified as professors and masters in that course. Very possible. The point is that there CAN BE differences and we still belong in the same class. Same thing with a family. You might not agree with your brother, your mother, your sister, your mother on everything. That doesn't mean you are not family. In fact, you might actually be contradictory on some issues, don't mean you're not blood.Your blood is thicker than your water as it were. In the church(the body of Christ), there exists something similar. Individuals and groups might have different and differing viewpoints and understanding on some issues. However, you would hardly find disagreement on salient issues of the faith.
Jesus is Lord from yesterday till forever, anybody with a different view to that is NOT a member of the body of Christ. Jesus died for our sins. Without faith, it is impossible to please God. Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved. these are fundamental truths. You cannot have millions of contradictory opinions about these.

So for you, members of the Church are at liberty to disagree on any doctrines of the faith (teachings), except the "salient issues of the faith."

1. Where do you get that teaching from? The Bible or your personal tradition? If it is the Bible, show me the verse that says that.

2. Who defines which Christian doctrine is a "salient issue" and which Christian doctrine is not? The Bible or you? If it is the Bible, please show me the verse.

3. You would consider anyone who disagrees with you on any of those points above, not a member of the Church. Yes or no?

Image123:


Jesus Himself was asked some seemingly 'yes or no' questions, He wasn't gullible to tempters. Not every yes or no question would get a yes or no answer. Take that as moral lesson from the story.

Joh 8:4 They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.
Joh 8:5 Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?

Luk 20:22 Is it lawful for us to give tribute unto Caesar, or no?

The Pharisees also dodged questions because they were afraid to come out into the light...just like you hypocrites.

Image123:

Where are the hypocrites and what are their hypocrisies?


Good to see you remove the erroneous, exaggerated 'millions'. The visible church, which i guess to be every church building or denomination, is not necessarily the true church. For instance, the Roman Catholic church is currently confused and contradictory on whether gays should be priests or not, and on even evolution. Do you think this makes the Catholic church a false church?
i cannot see the invisible church, but like i explained to AIO, members of the body of Christ might be different in outlook and function, and may even share differing perspectives and understandings in some teachings. But when it comes to the weighty, major, salient issues, there is no contradiction. Jesus is Lord.

1. There are millions of contradictory so-called Christian doctrines. It is not an exaggeration. I removed it just to prevent you from having any excuses to dodge the questions. If you think, there aren't up to millions of contradictory doctrines, (I) show me another Christian who agrees with the totality of your own doctrine. (II) tell me how many contradictory doctrines there are.

2. The Catholic Church is not confused or contradictory because Catholic doctrine is explicitly spelt out in the Catechism and Canon law. If the Catholic Church has definitively taught on an issue, then no Catholic is at liberty to disagree with it. We are only at liberty to hold personal opinions where the Catholic Church has not taught definitively on an issue.

3. Again, who defines what is "weighty" and "salient?" You?

4. The visible Church can be a false Church?

Hiswordxray:

If you want an answer so badly here it is:
But first I didn't mention anything about the visible and invisible Church. I only talked about the Church.
The Church am talking about is a living body. A body does not need doctrine. Or do you need doctrine for your body to function?
All the body does is to express the person or the life in it. All the Church does is to express the life in it. The Church is not an organization that needs law but a body that expresses Christ.

Acts 2:42 They devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching (doctrine) and fellowship, to the breaking of bread (religious practice) and the prayers.

Obviously, you are not a part of the Church of the apostles.

It is safe to call you a false teacher. No?

Other verses:

Titus 2:1 But as for you, teach what is consistent with sound doctrine

2 John 1:9 Everyone who does not abide in the teaching of Christ, but goes beyond it, does not have God; whoever abides in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. 10 Do not receive into the house or welcome anyone who comes to you and does not bring this teaching;

Then read Acts 15 to see how seriously the early Church took disputes in doctrine.

Image123, did the apostles also tolerate any opposition to Church doctrine (salient or not) as you do?

Or could it be that you are a part of another "church," not theirs. A new "church" that teaches a new doctrine. A new doctrine which the apostles warned us would come from the evil one?

italo:


Acts 2:42 They devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching (doctrine) and fellowship, to the breaking of bread (religious practice) and the prayers.

Obviously, you are not a part of the Church of the apostles.

It is safe to call you a false teacher. No?

Other verses:

Titus 2:1 But as for you, teach what is consistent with sound doctrine

2 John 1:9 Everyone who does not abide in the teaching of Christ, but goes beyond it, does not have God; whoever abides in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. 10 Do not receive into the house or welcome anyone who comes to you and does not bring this teaching;

Then read Acts 15 to see how seriously the early Church took disputes in doctrine.

I do not disagree with those verses and I know what am saying. Yes Christians have doctrines and churches have doctrines but the Church does not have doctrines for she is a body.
It like John saying, yes we sin (1John 1:but the child of God can't sin (1John 3:9). If you don't understand these statement it shows you are still a Spiritual baby and you need to grow up to understand our language.
Like Paul said " not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words." (1Cor 2:13).
And I can't explain it to you because if I do you won't understand me. Concerning this Paul said " 6 However, we speak wisdom among those who are mature, yet not the wisdom of this age, nor of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. 7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God ordained before the ages for our glory," (1Cor 2:6-7).

italo:

My beloved brother, I am not calling you a Spiritual baby to condemn you but I am saying it because by greatest desire is to see Christians grow into Spiritual maturity. The greatest problem of Christianity is that many of us are spiritual babies including our leaders. I am not saying I have gotten there but am saying we need to recognize that we are babies and try to grow up instead of proving knowledge.

May God help you as you desperately desire spiritual growth. Amen!

Hiswordxray:


I do not disagree with those verses and I know what am saying. Yes Christians have doctrines and churches have doctrines but the Church does not have doctrines for she is a body.
It like John saying, yes we sin (1John 1:but the child of God can't sin (1John 3:9). If you don't understand these statement it shows you are still a Spiritual baby and you need to grow up to understand our language.
Like Paul said " not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words." (1Cor 2:13).
And I can't explain it to you because if I do you won't understand me. Concerning this Paul said " 6 However, we speak wisdom among those who are mature, yet not the wisdom of this age, nor of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. 7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God ordained before the ages for our glory," (1Cor 2:6-7).

It has been said by someone that you have a mental problem. I think that person was being nice to you.

italo:
It has been said by someone that you have a mental problem. I think that person was being nice to you.

Just as they said Jesus was possessed by a demon because they couldn't understand his wisdom ?

But I know you do not mean to say that.
I love you, my beloved brother and BYE

italo:


So for you, members of the Church are at liberty to disagree on any doctrines of the faith (teachings), except the "salient issues of the faith."

1. Where do you get that teaching from? The Bible or your personal tradition? If it is the Bible, show me the verse that says that.

2. Who defines which Christian doctrine is a "salient issue" and which Christian doctrine is not? The Bible or you? If it is the Bible, please show me the verse.

3. You would consider anyone who disagrees with you on any of those points above, not a member of the Church. Yes or no?

You are putting words in my mouth as it were. i did not say they were at liberty to disagree. The point i make is that their disagreement foesn't mean they are not part of the body or church. just like family members may have disagreements and different likes and understandings. It is the will of God that there be no schisms or disunity but that is not happening yet as it were.

Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ:
This passage talks about God giving the church gifts for perfection till/UNTIL we ALL come in the unity of faith and of knowledge. We do not all have unity of faith and knowledge. Some are weaker in faith than others, some do not have the same knowledge or understanding. Paul for instance had some knowledge and understanding that some other believers did not have. And he had his disagreements, like for instance with his friend Barnabas on ministry decisions.
The Bible refers to some teachings as milk and some as meat, hence showing that all teachings are not on the same level. Even in the law, Jesus was asked which is the greatest. He didn't say they were all equal teachings. there are weightier matters than the others. Anyone who does not think Jesus is Lord is not a member of the church.

italo:
The Pharisees also dodged questions because they were afraid to come out into the light...just like you hypocrites.

Hopefully you got the point, Jesus Himself was asked some seemingly 'yes or no' questions, He wasn't gullible to tempters. Not every yes or no question would get a yes or no answer.

italo:


1. There are millions of contradictory so-called Christian doctrines. It is not an exaggeration. I removed it just to prevent you from having any excuses to dodge the questions. If you think, there aren't up to millions of contradictory doctrines, (I) show me another Christian who agrees with the totality of your own doctrine. (II) tell me how many contradictory doctrines there are.

Just so we are clear on this, i do not need to answer your questions. i have no such obligation or requirement. i'm not here to beg you or argue with you. How many contradictory positions can one get in whether Jesus Christ resurrected or not? Can we have millions of churches havng millions of teachings on whether Jesus resurrected or not? If you refuse to get that plain point, that is your business not mine.

2. The Catholic Church is not confused or contradictory because Catholic doctrine is explicitly spelt out in the Catechism and Canon law. If the Catholic Church has definitively taught on an issue, then no Catholic is at liberty to disagree with it. We are only at liberty to hold personal opinions where the Catholic Church has not taught definitively on an issue.

And who ratifies the catechism or canon law? Is the Roman Catholic church not currently confused and contradictory on whether gays should be priests or not, and on even evolution? Are those not contradictory doctrines/teachings? So, you are at liberty to hold personal opinions but other denominations are not at liberty to hold theirs? Theirs is millions of contradictory doctrine while yours is personal opinions liberty. Who is fooling who?

3. Again, who defines what is "weighty" and "salient?" You?

The Bible. The matters of redemption and eternal life are weighty and salient.

4. The visible Church can be a false Church?

Yes, like some sect of the catholic are likely false.

italo:
Image123, did the apostles also tolerate any opposition to Church doctrine (salient or not) as you do?

Or could it be that you are a part of another "church," not theirs. A new "church" that teaches a new doctrine. A new doctrine which the apostles warned us would come from the evil one?

Different understanding is not opposition to church doctrine. There were brethren in the early church who had differing views on circumcision in Acts 15. They were brethren and so rightly referred to. But thankfully, the church came together to consider the matter, and God's gifts of apostles, teachers etc were able to come to an agreed teaching on the matter. That letter was sent to other BRETHREN who probably had different views on the subject. They were not false or another church. What they lacked was same understanding, knowledge and revelation.