Bidam:
Where is the mother?

You understand what I mean, stop picking loop holes in statement. Father means the person that brought you forth or procreated you. It doesn't have to include a mother.

Bidam:
Can you point a single verse in scripture where the Jews called God their father? Jesus was teaching them The Father is the SOURCE from which he came that's all.

John 8v41 -Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; WE HAVE ONE FATHER, EVEN GOD.

I agree the word "Father" could mean source or creator, God is called the Father of spirits, because He create every spirit. But "begotten" cannot be twisted to mean anything other than someone you procreated.

Angels were also referred to as "sons of God" in scripture (Genesis and Job); but Jesus was the only begotten son (only procreated Son)

That was why the sense in which Jesus called God "Father" was offensive to the Jews. Because it was in terms of one who procreated you, not just a source or creator.

Jesus is called "The firsborn of every creature."

Jesus wasn't created. The Father begat (procreated) Him and He created all things.

Jesus is deity but He is not the Father, neither is He equal in aithority to the Father. He called the Father "My God", the same way Thomas called Jesus "My God".

Too many scriptures proof this point explicitly for it to even be an issue of argument

PastorKun:
It still beats my imagination how some believers try to justify the trinity myth. Apart from the fact it is contrary to scriptures, it just doesn't make any sense and rather than it promoting the faith it gives non believers ammunition to ridicule the faith.

The trinity doctrine is the number one thing that repels Jews from Christianity. Any person who knows God and His word well enough will hate Christianity because of trinity. The Romans twisted the original Christianity.

Bidam:
Agreed, a perfect sinless nature for the sacrifice of the sins of humanity. No mankind could fufill that except a deity.

You write from the viewpoint of the fallen man. Mankind before the fall was just a little lower than angels; he had a lot of divinity in him. Jesus is a new man, without the blemish of sin. So, the man Jesus was not like us; he was not a fallen being.

Kei144:


The trinity doctrine is the number one thing that repels Jews from Christianity. Any person who knows God and His word well enough will hate Christianity because of trinity. The Romans twisted the original Christianity.

1 cor 1
23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

The jews just can't comprehend the entire wisdom of God and many are also blinded to who really died on the cross, they find it foolish cos they just can't comprehend it.

ayoku777:


You understand what I mean, stop picking loop holes in statement. Father means the person that brought you forth or procreated you. It doesn't have to include a mother.

Jesus said "I and the Father are ONE". If you are viewing this in terms of human relation, i need to ask you that cos it doesn't make logical sense concerning procreation. Hope you get my point of view.

John 8v41 -Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; WE HAVE ONE FATHER, EVEN GOD.

Ok.

I agree the word "Father" could mean source or creator, God is called the Father of spirits, because He create every spirit. But "begotten" cannot be twisted to mean anything other than someone you procreated.

The onus is on you to prove it in terms of human relation or biology.

That was why the sense in which Jesus called God "Father" was offensive to the Jews. Because it was in terms of one who procreated you, not just a source or creator.

No, you are wrong Jesus was alluding to His deity. He told them He was before Abraham.

ayoku777:


The verse you quoted is Colosians 1v15 -Who is the image of the invisible God, the FIRSTBORN of every creature.

This shows that Jesus was begotten of the Father in the very beginning.

The Father created nothing, He only pro-created (or begat) the Word; and the Word created all things.

Colosians 1v16 -For by Him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible...

Hebrews 1v2 -(He) Hath in these last days spoken unto us by His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, BY WHOM ALSO HE MADE THE WORLDS

To pro-create means to bring forth or to come out from. I don't think the Father requires a wife for that.

Jesus became the physical image when He was born of a woman. But He was always the Father's image even before that.

Is the father invisible?

ayoku777:


Father is exactly how it means in human relation unless you wana twist the meaning of "begotten". Its not together, that the Father and Jesus is God. Jesus is God and the Father is the Most High God.

Jesus called the Father My God, not Fellow God.

And I never said Jesus isn't deity or not eternal. I said the Father is greater than Him in authority. Many scriptures proof that. The Father is the only one that prays to no one. Jesus and the Holy Spirit prays.

But the Father called Jesus "his fellow" Zechariah 13:7.
I have proved it to you in Genesis that Jesus is the Most High God. He may call the Father his God, but show me in the scriptures where Jesus WORSHIPPED the Father.

If God is a jealous God, and has instructed no one to worship another, how come all angels, men and devils worshipped Jesus (the Lamb) in the book of revelation in the presence of the Father, and the Father was not angry?

Jesus Himself said "all men should honour the Son same way they honour the Father.

Jesus is the most High God, just like the Father.

Debroslink:


But the Father called Jesus "his fellow" Zechariah 13:7.
I have proved it to you in Genesis that Jesus is the Most High God. He may call the Father his God, but show me in the scriptures where Jesus WORSHIPPED the Father.

If God is a jealous God, and has instructed no one to worship another, how come all angels, men and devils worshipped Jesus (the Lamb) in the book of revelation in the presence of the Father, and the Father was not angry?

Jesus Himself said "all men should honour the Son same way they honour the Father.

Jesus is the most High God, just like the Father.

No don't do that. Don't use deductive reasoning to establish doctrine. Deductive reasoning is not always a safe way to establish or arrive at sound doctrine.

Deductive reasoning is how people usually make the bible say what they want it to say instead of what it really said.

To say that, God is a jealous God, so for Him to let angels, men and devils worship the lamb in His presence proves Jesus is Most High like the Father. That is deduced

Or to say, because the Father created heaven and earth by Jesus the word, so that means Jesus is the "possessor of heaven and earth" referred to in Genesis, so that makes Him Most High.

That means I can also deduce that God said, I am Jehovah, and my glory will I not give to another. And Jesus said the glory the Father gave to him, he has given to us, that means God counts us as Jehovah.

You see, with deductive reasoning, you can claim the bible implied what it never said.

There is no where in scripture where Jesus was the subject of referrence that He was called Most High.

Isaiah directly called Jesus GIBBOWR ELOHIM (Mighty God). Jeremiah called Him YAHOVA TSIDKENU (Lord our righteousness). John and Thomas called Him GOD. But Most High God? No! Only the Father that Jesus himself called "My God" was given that.

Let's no go beyond what is written and begin to claim the bible implied what it didn't say. You can make the bible imply anything with that method of interpretation.

ayoku777:


No don't do that. Don't use deductive reasoning to establish doctrine. Deductive reasoning is not always a safe way to establish or arrive at sound doctrine.

Deductive reasoning is how people usually make the bible say what they want it to say instead of what it really said.

To say that, God is a jealous God, so for Him to let angels, men and devils worship the lamb in His presence proves Jesus is Most High like the Father. That is deduced

Or to say, because the Father created heaven and earth by Jesus the word, so that means Jesus is the "possessor of heaven and earth" referred to in Genesis, so that makes Him Most High.

That means I can also deduce that God said, I am Jehovah, and my glory will I not give to another. And Jesus said the glory the Father gave to him, he has given to us, that means God counts us as Jehovah.

You see, with deductive reasoning, you can claim the bible implied what it never said.

There is no where in scripture where Jesus was the subject of referrence that He was called Most High.

Isaiah directly called Jesus GIBBOWR ELOHIM (Mighty God). Jeremiah called Him YAHOVA TSIDKENU (Lord our righteousness). John and Thomas called Him GOD. But Most High God? No! Only the Father that Jesus himself called "My God" was given that.

Let's no go beyond what is written and begin to claim the bible implied what it didn't say. You can make the bible imply anything with that method of interpretation.

The most High can also be called "most Holy"

Dan 9:24
Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to[b] anoint the most Holy[/b].
KJV

You and I agree that the reference above is directed towards Jesus

Since you insist Jesus is not the Most High God, show me scriptural references where Jesus WORSHIPED the Father.

For those who do not believe in the trinity and those who go about saying "God begat Jesus, and Jesus Created all things", these make Jesus (the word) finite in time, which is wrong. For In the beginning was the word.

However, my question is: If Jesus and not the father created all things, Who was it that in Gen 1:1 created heaven and earth. Who said in Gen 1:3 "let there be light". Who rested on the seventh day after creating man on the sixth?

[quote author=ayoku777 post=28450745]And verses that proof that Jesus is God

1: John 1v1 -In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, AND THE WORD WAS GOD.

Jesus, the Word is God.

2: Isaiah 9v6 -For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon His shoulders: and HIS NAME SHALL BE called Wonderful, Counsellor, THE MIGHTY GOD, The Everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Jesus is GIBBOWR ELOHIM (Mighty God)

3: Jeremiah 23v5-6 -Behold the days come saith the Lord, that I will raise unto David a righteous branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.

In His days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and THIS IS HIS NAME whereby He shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGTHEOUSNESS.

Jesus is YAHOVAH TSIDKENU.

4: 1Timothy 3v16 -And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: GOD was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Who is God manifest in the flesh? Who is the God justified in the Spirit and seen of angels? Who is the God RECEIVED UP INTO GLORY? It is JESUS.

5: Psalm 45v6-7 -Thy throne, O GOD, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre.

Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: THEREFORE GOD, THY GOD, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

Notice those two verses. In verse 6 He began by talking to God, "Thy throne O GOD is forever". Then he said "Therefore GOD, thy God hath anointed thee".

So God (The Father) anointed God (The Son). Did you see it?

Personally, I myself don't believe in the Trinity gospel. I believe Jesus is not the same person as the Father; but I believe Jesus is God (Elohim) just like the Father, according to the scriptures I have shown you and others.

According to Jesus in John 14v28b -For my Father is greater than I.

The Father is greater in authority than Jesus; because He prays to His Father (John 17v1), and He was begotten of the Father (John 1v14) but Jesus is also God too. Those scriptures make that clear.

Infact the only names of the Father that Jesus doesn't share or bare (according to my study -which i stand to be corrected) are Ancient of Days and Most High. Other than that He is also Elohim and even Yahova, like the Father.[/quote


gbam
on point.

the things of d spirit,r spiritual decern and canot be known by carnal minds who do not understand d mission of christ.

[quote author=frosbel post=28445231][/quote]

that is ur own understanding

Syncan:
For those who do not believe in the trinity and those who go about saying "God begat Jesus, and Jesus Created all things", these make Jesus (the word) finite in time, which is wrong. For In the beginning was the word.

However, my question is: If Jesus and not the father created all things, Who was it that in Gen 1:1 created heaven and earth. Who said in Gen 1:3 "let there be light". Who rested on the seventh day after creating man on the sixth?

What a great question!!!



I have returned to the God of my fathers
Creator of heaven and earth
God of the universe
He's Jesus to me
Eternal Deity
Praise His name

ayoku777:


That is what I am saying Jesus is God, and the Father is God.

But note that the Father is called "THY GOD" to Jesus. Meaning the Father is GOD to Jesus even though Jesus is also God. Meaning Jesus is God, but the Father is HIS GOD too

John 20v17b -go tell my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father; and to MY GOD, and your God.

That explains why the Father is called THE MOST HIGH GOD.

That would mean two Gods of which the Father is the Most high.

Omo see mental gymnastics. Jesus is God, but also lesser than God. Ergo Jesus is lesser than himself?

Unless you are saying Jesus is the Thor to God's Odin, in which case, carry on I guess.

^^

They prefer to remain confused !

timmy2409:


Omo see mental gymnastics. Jesus is God, but also lesser than God. Ergo Jesus is lesser than himself?

Unless you are saying Jesus is the Thor to God's Odin, in which case, carry on I guess.

Very typical of people, to disprove things with smug mockery without scriptures to back it up.

Psalm 45v6-7 -Thy throne, O GOD, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right. Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore GOD, THY GOD, hath anointed with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

John 14v28 -For THE FATHER IS GREATER THAN I

John 20v17b -But go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to MY GOD, and your God.

1Cor 15v28 And when all things shall be subdued unto Him, then shall THE SON ALSO HIMSELF BE SUBJECT TO HIM that put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.

I've given you four scriptures to show that Jesus is God but He is not the Father's equal, not now after His ascension and glorification, and not later when all things are subdued unto Him.

Smug remarks don't carry weight in spiritual debate, at least not among those sincerely looking for truth -only the scriptures do.

asamaigho:

gbam
on point.

the things of d spirit,r spiritual decern and canot be known by carnal minds who do not understand d mission of christ.

True.

Honesty and sincerity of heart is the key to unlocking the scriptures.

If we will let the scripture say what it said instead of try to make it say what we want it to say, we will find that many mainstream and widely accepted doctrines in the church have very weak or no scriptural foundation.

ayoku777:


Very typical of people, to disprove things with smug mockery without scriptures to back it up.

Psalm 45v6-7 -Thy throne, O GOD, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right. Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore GOD, THY GOD, hath anointed with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

John 14v28 -For THE FATHER IS GREATER THAN I

John 20v17b -But go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to MY GOD, and your God.

1Cor 15v28 And when all things shall be subdued unto Him, then shall THE SON ALSO HIMSELF BE SUBJECT TO HIM that put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.

I've given you four scriptures to show that Jesus is God but He is not the Father's equal, not now after His ascension and glorification, and not later when all things are subdued unto Him.

Smug remarks don't carry weight in spiritual debate, at least not among those sincerely looking for truth -only the scriptures do.

1. Jesus is God (1 John 5: 7-8 )
2. Jesus is less than God (OP's multiple verses)

How are these two statements reconcilable, please? Like I said, unless you're claiming that Jesus is a sort of lesser 'god', then this just doesn't work. Jesus cannot be the same as the alleged supreme creator, and then still be a lesser being. Admit the bible contradicts itself and move on.

Syncan:
For those who do not believe in the trinity and those who go about saying "God begat Jesus, and Jesus Created all things", these make Jesus (the word) finite in time, which is wrong. For In the beginning was the word.

However, my question is: If Jesus and not the father created all things, Who was it that in Gen 1:1 created heaven and earth. Who said in Gen 1:3 "let there be light". Who rested on the seventh day after creating man on the sixth?

This is the answer to your question:

Hebrews 1v2 -(God) hath in these last days spokun unto us by His Son, whom He hath appointed heir of all things, BY WHOM ALSO HE MADE THE WORLDS.

The Father made the world by His Son Jesus (The word). Or Jesus made the world by the authority of the Father.

As to the whether Christ is finite relatively to the Father or not, that is debatable. Because if you are begotten, then the person who begat must pre-exist the person begotten.

But this scriptures stand out:

Colosians 1v15 -(Jesus) who is the image of the invisible God, THE FIRSTBORN OF EVERY CREATURE.

Revelation 3v14 -These things saith the Amen, the Faithful and True witness, THE BEGINNING OF THE CREATION OF GOD.

The reason I said the issue is debatable is because of this second scripture.

"The beginning of the creation of God" is an ambiguous expression that can mean two things.

It could mean Jesus is the one who began the creation of God. Or it could mean Jesus is the first (pro)creation of God. That is, the Father procreated Jesus and Jesus created all things, making Him the first of His works.

Even so, finite or not, Jesus is shown in many scriptures as not being the Father's equal, not now, not ever. The Father is God to Jesus. This lays the trinity mantra to rest.

timmy2409:


1. Jesus is God (1 John 5: 7-8 )
2. Jesus is less than God (OP's multiple verses)

How are these two statements reconcilable, please? Like I said, unless you're claiming that Jesus is a sort of lesser 'god', then this just doesn't work. Jesus cannot be the same as the alleged supreme creator, and then still be a lesser being. Admit the bible contradicts itself and move on.

Didn't you see the verse in Psalms where one God was anointing another God; and the God anointing was the God of the one anointed?

Psalm 45v6-7;

Please check it yourself. I've shown it so many times, I'm beginning to sound like a broken record already.

ayoku777:


This is the answer to your question:

Hebrews 1v2 -(God) hath in these last days spokun unto us by His Son, whom He hath appointed heir of all things, BY WHOM ALSO HE MADE THE WORLDS.

The Father made the world by His Son Jesus (The word). Or Jesus made the world by the authority of the Father.

As to the whether Christ is finite relatively to the Father or not, that is debatable. Because if you are begotten, then the person who begat must pre-exist the person begotten.

But this scriptures stand out:

Colosians 1v15 -(Jesus) who is the image of the invisible God, THE FIRSTBORN OF EVERY CREATURE.

Revelation 3v14 -These things saith the Amen, the Faithful and True witness, THE BEGINNING OF THE CREATION OF GOD.

The reason I said the issue is debatable is because of this second scripture.

"The beginning of the creation of God" is an ambiguous expression that can mean two things.

It could mean Jesus is the one who began the creation of God. Or it could mean Jesus is the first (pro)creation of God. That is, the Father procreated Jesus and Jesus created all things, making Him the first of His works.

Even so, finite or not, Jesus is shown in many scriptures as not being the Father's equal, not now, not ever. The Father is God to Jesus. This lays the trinity mantra to rest.

You are the guy contradicting yourself and making a mockery of the Godhead. What you are telling us is that there are multiple gods in heaven. So is the Father greater than the Holy Spirit?

Bidam:
You are the guy contradicting yourself and making a mockery of the Godhead. What you are telling us is that there are multiple gods in heaven. So is the Father greater than the Holy Spirit?

How are my making mockery of something I keep using scriptures to back up?

For what's worth, you guys are the ones making an EMOTIONAL CASE for something you can't disprove with scripture.

As for the Holy Spirit, I can't even find a scripture that defines Him as God. I'm open to scriptural proof of His God-hood though.

ayoku777:


How are my making mockery of something I keep using scriptures to back up?

And like i keep telling you and it seems to fly over your head is that Jesus was sent from the Father through the Spirit. You cannot separate your self from your words, Just like you cannot separate God from His Word. Gen 1:1 is clear that Jesus created the heavens and the earth. The Word(Jesus) was with God and the Word( Jesus) was God. Jesus in His Humanity has to make reference to the Father( The source) from which He was sent so humanity could understand that He came from God. He already said I AND THE FATHER ARE ONE.( meaning EQUALITY but distinct in personality.)

For what's worth, you guys are the ones making an EMOTIONAL CASE for something you can't disprove with scripture.

No one is making an emotional case here but you. Once this basic foundational theology is destroyed your Christianity will be a sorry mess. That's how cults are breeded all over the place. We are trying to snatch you away from the jaws of it.

As for the Holy Spirit, I can't even find a scripture that defines Him as God. I'm open to scriptural proof of His God-hood though.

[quote] The Holy Spirit is God quite alright. God creates( Gen 1:26). John said God is Spirit. The Holy Spirit is not a force but a person. God is one but he expresses himself in three distinct personalities and dimensions.

Everything Jesus has was given Him by the Father:

John 13v3 -Jesus knowing that the Father hath given all things into His hands, and that He was come from, and went to God.

Even His death and resurrection; the authority and command to lay down His life and take it back was from the Father.

John 10v18 -I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. THIS COMMANDMENT HAVE I RECEIVED FROM MY FATHER.

Do you need the command or authority of your equal to decide what to do with your own life?

Even Christ's authority to be self-existent like the Father, unlike the rest of us that live off of God; was given Him of the Father.

John 5v26 -For as the Father hath life in Himself; SO HATH HE GIVEN TO THE SON to have life in Himself.

These are all scriptures, I wish I'm making them up, or even twisting their meaning. But no, I'm not.

No one is denying Jesus is GOD, He is God according to scripture. But that He is equal in authority to the Father? NO. And that too is according to the scripture.

Bidam:
And like i keep telling you and it seems to fly over your head is that Jesus was sent from the Father through the Spirit. You cannot separate your self from your words, Just like you cannot separate God from His Word. Gen 1:1 is clear that Jesus created the heavens and the earth. The Word(Jesus) was with God and the Word( Jesus) was God. Jesus in His Humanity has to make reference to the Father( The source) from which He was sent so humanity could understand that He came from God. He already said I AND THE FATHER ARE ONE.( meaning EQUALITY but distinct in personality.)

No one is making an emotional case here but you. Once this basic foundational theology is destroyed your Christianity will be a sorry mess. That's how cults are breeded all over the place. We are trying to snatch you away from the jaws of it.

Seriously? So "I AND MY FATHER ARE ONE" means EQUALITY?

So when Jesus prayed to the Father to make us ONE in them AS THEY ARE ONE (John 17v21-22). Is He asking the Father to make us His equal? So that means the Church is now equal to the Father and the Son?

Or when the bible says; "He that is joined to the Lord is ONE SPIRIT" (1Cor 6v17)

Does that mean our human spirit and the Holy Spirit are now equals.

No, please, that is imported revelation. Oneness is not equality in authority. Oneness means same principles, same purpose and same power. But not same authority.

And, Trinity is not even a scriptural theology, much less a foundational one. Where in scripture did Jesus, ever claim equality with the Father?

Even after His resurrection and glorification, He still called the Father "My God". And at the end of the age when all things are subdued under Him, the Son himself will still be subject to the Father who put all things under Him. (1Cor 15)

And Jesus didn't just "coin" the word FATHER, to help explain His source. There was indeed a Father in heaven, under whose authority He came, and by whose command He did all that He did including lay down His life and take it back.

The same Father He remained subject to after His glorification calling Him "My God", and will remain subject to for all eternity when all things are subdued under Him.

And Jesus said, "God is Spirit" not "God is the Holy Spirit".

We all know the Father is Spirit, but He is not the Holy Spirit, Just as the Word is also Spirit (John 6v63) but the Word is not the Holy Spirit.

But then again, I have no problem believing the Holy Spirit is also God. But He's not Father, nor the Most High God either.

ayoku777:


This is the answer to your question:

Hebrews 1v2 -(God) hath in these last days spokun unto us by His Son, whom He hath appointed heir of all things, BY WHOM ALSO HE MADE THE WORLDS.

The Father made the world by His Son Jesus (The word). Or Jesus made the world by the authority of the Father.

As to the whether Christ is finite relatively to the Father or not, that is debatable. Because if you are begotten, then the person who begat must pre-exist the person begotten.

But this scriptures stand out:

Colosians 1v15 -(Jesus) who is the image of the invisible God, THE FIRSTBORN OF EVERY CREATURE.

Revelation 3v14 -These things saith the Amen, the Faithful and True witness, THE BEGINNING OF THE CREATION OF GOD.

The reason I said the issue is debatable is because of this second scripture.

"The beginning of the creation of God" is an ambiguous expression that can mean two things.

It could mean Jesus is the one who began the creation of God. Or it could mean Jesus is the first (pro)creation of God. That is, the Father procreated Jesus and Jesus created all things, making Him the first of His works.

Even so, finite or not, Jesus is shown in many scriptures as not being the Father's equal, not now, not ever. The Father is God to Jesus. This lays the trinity mantra to rest.

Too much talk, yet i can't find any answer within.

Ayoku777, frosbel, kei44, I ask you and others again: If Jesus and not the father created all things,

1)Who was it that in Gen 1:1 created heaven and earth?.......
2)Who said in Gen 1:3 "let there be light"?......
3)Who in Gen 2:2 rested on the seventh day after creating man on the sixth day?.....

ayoku777:


Seriously? So "I AND MY FATHER ARE ONE" means EQUALITY?

Let's look at the scripture in context.

“I and the Father are one.” 31 The Jews picked up stones again to stone Him. 32 Jesus answered them, “I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?” 33 The Jews answered Him, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God.” 34 Jesus answered them, “Has it not been written in your Law, ‘I SAID, YOU ARE GODS’? 35 If he called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken), 36 do you say of Him, whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’?" (John 10:30-36).

The Jews were not angry because He said He and the Father are one but His claim on equality with the FATHER.Simples.

So when Jesus prayed to the Father to make us ONE in them AS THEY ARE ONE (John 17v21-22). Is He asking the Father to make us His equal? So that means the Church is now equal to the Father and the Son?

The church is the Body of Christ, a single individual doesn't make up the Church,so stop being disingenuous by twisting Jesus prayers.

Joh 5:18 For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God.

Did Jesus' words give His audience reason to believe He was equal with His Father?

Or when the bible says; "He that is joined to the Lord is ONE SPIRIT" (1Cor 6v17)

Does that mean our human spirit and the Holy Spirit are now equals.

Again your distorted reasoning did not make you to see that Jesus is in a class of His own. His nature is different from the human nature in the sense that He was perfect and sinless from birth.
“For this cause therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, [size=16pt]making Himself equal with God.”[/size] (John 5:18).

Notice that saying that God was Jesus’ Father was to make himself equal with God. Therefore, we can see the term “Son of God” is not a denial that Jesus is God. Instead, it affirms it.

No, please, that is imported revelation. Oneness is not equality in authority. Oneness means same principles, same purpose and same power. But not same authority.

If that means principles, purpose and power, then we would have seen the apostles resurrected after 3 days.

And, Trinity is not even a scriptural theology, much less a foundational one. Where in scripture did Jesus, ever claim equality with the Father?

You think so? Is the word supernatural and bible in scriptures?
"Jesus said to them, 'Truly, truly, I say to you,[size=16pt] before Abraham was born, I am.'[/size] 59 Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him, but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple," (John 8:58-59).


Jesus' words here are significant because he says he is the "I am." This is similar to what is found in Exodus.

God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM”; and He said, “Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’” 15 God, furthermore, said to Moses, “Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, ‘The LORD, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.’ This is My name forever, and this is My memorial-name to all generations," (Exodus 3:14-15).

Even after His resurrection and glorification, He still called the Father "My God". And at the end of the age when all things are subdued under Him, the Son himself will still be subject to the Father who put all things under Him. (1Cor 15)

Who is the Image of the invisible God? Like i said the source is the Father.

And Jesus didn't just "coin" the word FATHER, to help explain His source. There was indeed a Father in heaven, under whose authority He came, and by whose command He did all that He did including lay down His life and take it back.

The same Father He remained subject to after His glorification calling Him "My God", and will remain subject to for all eternity when all things are subdued under Him.

And Jesus said, "God is Spirit" not "God is the Holy Spirit".

We all know the Father is Spirit, but He is not the Holy Spirit, Just as the Word is also Spirit (John 6v63) but the Word is not the Holy Spirit.

But then again, I have no problem believing the Holy Spirit is also God. But He's not Father, nor the Most High God either.

God is bigger than your little mind to grasp, You can't comprehend His awesome vastness, He is invisible and can never be seen by man. He is the source of all creation. Only Jesus can be seen when you go to Heaven. The vast heaven is God's throne and the earth is His footstool, that's how awesome our God is. Jesus is equal with God even though he is distinct in personality and function from God the Father and God the Spirit.

Phil. 2:5-8--"Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard [size=16pt]equality[/size] with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. 9 Therefore also God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those who are in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."

1Cor 15v27-28 -For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest the he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

And when all things shall be subdued unto him, THEN SHALL THE SON ALSO HIMSELF BE SUBJECT UNTO HIM that put all things under him.

Its obvious from this scripture that Jesus, even in his glorified, exalted state, will forever be subject to the Father; even after the kingdom is fully come to earth.

The Son and the Father will never be equal. Unless "subject unto" now has a new meaning besides the meaning it has always had.

ayoku777:
Everything Jesus has was given Him by the Father:

John 13v3 -Jesus knowing that the Father hath given all things into His hands, and that He was come from, and went to God.

Even His death and resurrection; the authority and command to lay down His life and take it back was from the Father.

John 10v18 -I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. THIS COMMANDMENT HAVE I RECEIVED FROM MY FATHER.

Do you need the command or authority of your equal to decide what to do with your own life?

Even Christ's authority to be self-existent like the Father, unlike the rest of us that live off of God; was given Him of the Father.

John 5v26 -For as the Father hath life in Himself; SO HATH HE GIVEN TO THE SON to have life in Himself.

These are all scriptures, I wish I'm making them up, or even twisting their meaning. But no, I'm not.

No one is denying Jesus is GOD, He is God according to scripture. But that He is equal in authority to the Father? NO. And that too is according to the scripture.

@Frosbel, Is puppy a dog?

ayoku777:
1Cor 15v27-28 -For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest the he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

And when all things shall be subdued unto him, THEN SHALL THE SON ALSO HIMSELF BE SUBJECT UNTO HIM that put all things under him.

Its obvious from this scripture that Jesus, even in his glorified, exalted state, will forever be subject to the Father; even after the kingdom is fully come to earth.

The Son and the Father will never be equal. Unless "subject unto" now has a new meaning besides the meaning it has always had.

Here is an article i got from AW Tozer. Enjoy sir!

Christ did not hesitate to use the plural form when speaking of Himself along with the Father and the Spirit. “We will come unto him and make our abode with him.” Yet again He said, “I and my Father are one.” It is most important that we think of God as Trinity in Unity, neither confounding the Persons nor dividing the Substance. Only so may we think rightly of God and in a manner worthy of Him and of our own souls.

It was our Lord’s claim to equality with the Father that outraged the religionists of His day and led at last to His crucifixion. The attack on the doctrine of the Trinity two centuries later by Arius and others was also aimed at Christ’s claim to deity. During the Arian controversy 318 Church fathers (many of them maimed and scarred by the physical violence suffered in earlier persecutions) met at Nicaea and adopted a statement of faith, one section of which runs:
I believe in one Lord Jesus Christ,The only-begotten Son of God,
Begotten of Him before all ages,God of God, Light of Light,
Very God of Very God, Begotten, not made,Being of one substance with the Father,By whom all things were made.

For more than sixteen hundred years this has stood as the final test of orthodoxy, as well it should, for it condenses in theological language the teaching of the New Testament concerning the position of the Son in the Godhead.

The Nicene Creed also pays tribute to the Holy Spirit as being Himself God and equal to the Father and the Son:
I believe in the Holy Spirit
The Lord and giver of life,
Which proceedeth from the Father and the Son,
Who with the Father and Son together
Is worshipped and glorified.

Apart from the question of whether the Spirit proceeds from the Father alone or from the Father and the Son, this tenet of the ancient creed has been held by the Eastern and Western branches of the Church and by all but a tiny minority of Christians.

The authors of the Athanasian Creed spelled out with great care the relation of the three
Persons to each other, filling in the gaps in human thought as far as they were able while staying within the bounds of the inspired Word. “In this Trinity,” runs the Creed,“nothing is before or after, nothing is greater or less: but all three Persons co eternal, together and equal.”
How do these words harmonize with the saying of Jesus, “My Father is greater than I”?

Those old theologians knew, and wrote into the Creed, “Equal to His Father, as touching His Godhead; less than the Father, as touching His manhood,” and this interpretation commends itself to every serious-minded seeker after truth in a region where the light is all but blinding.
EXCERPTS from Tozer – Knowledge of the Holy.

Jesus is God in flesh.
God is eternally invisible, Jesus Christ is His image, and in Jesus Christ dwells the fullness of the Godhead bodily.