joseph1013:


I think upbringing is quite synonymous with indoctrination. The truth is that one way or the other, we are all indoctrinated. The question is to what degree.

A parent could do all he can to help raise a critical thinking, independent child, but if the society the child lives does not support that, the success rate won't be that much. And I don't think there is a society that does not indoctrinate.

But hey, could we say a society that teaches people to be critical thinkers has indoctrinated them with critical thinking?

PastorAIO:


Even critical thinking has criteria that are arbitrarily determined. It seems to boil down to values. And a persons values are often conferred to him from his environment.

In a society that values survival above everything, a man well indoctrinated by that society will happily kill another man to get by and consider his actions a good thing.
In a society that values other ideals, a man well indoctrinated by that society will/may give us his life to defend that ideal and will consider his actions a good thing.

But those values that form the criteria for critical thinking are provided arbitrarily by his society/environment.

There is another way though. And that is one whereby the criteria that provides the foundation of a man's thoughts are found, not externally in the environment, but rather deep inside of him in the heart of his very being.

joseph1013:


Example?

PastorAIO:


Presuming that a man is not just a blank slate that is then 'programmed' with all the characteristics that become his personality, but rather that the man has an essential nature, a true being, an adamant core .... Then such behaviour that accords with this, and such thinking that serves this would be based on a criteria that is all his own, not one imposed from without.

But that would presume that there was such an essential nature, and that we are not just accidents of our environment.

joseph1013:
What sayeth thou about genes and our individual genetic makeups?

PastorAIO:


Hmmm... Okay. Let us take that as the adamant core. If a man is therefore genetically predisposed to be aggressive towards his neighbours, but due to socialization and indoctrination he actually exhibits quite mild attributes, would he be left with a deep seated feeling of unfulfilment? Even though he me be respected for his mildness by society, even lauded, would it all leave him dissatified within? Furthermore would it be morally right for him to shake off such indoctrination and revert to his original aggressive nature?

joseph1013:
[b][size=14pt]A discussion on Bruce Jenner Transgenderism[/size]
I feel compelled to respond to the comments I have read on Bruce Jenner and his gender re-assignment treatment. Some of the comments are absolutely hateful, judgemental and nauseatingly ignorant. No wonder that transgender people are believed to have higher than average suicide rates. But here is the irony - the most toxic comments I have read have come from Christians, the same people who ask for respect for their beliefs all the time, and to whom the bible says "don't judge".
Most of those who condemn transgender-ism do not know anything about the condition. Nor do they know the degree of emotional/psychological stress that transgender people endure on a daily basis. I don't understand transgender-ism or how it comes about or the best way to treat it. I don't know if gender reassignment surgery is necessarily the right treatment for the condition. But I will not complicate life for transgender individuals by denigrating them and suggesting that they are corrupting their bodies when they seek a way to manage their problems.
The issue to me is not whether gender re-assignment surgery will convert a man to a "real woman". I do not believe that this is physically possible. The issue is whether the treatment can alleviate suffering. Or should we let these people commit suicide because the treatment they seek does not conform to your moral code? Why do you talk down an intervention that has helped SOME transgender people when you yourself know of no better treatment or a cure for the condition? How is it your place to judge how others must live their lives? How do you not see that your attitude and comments hurt other people so much? Why not live, and let live?
Maybe this real life encounter from a medical doctor friend will help to soften some minds:
When I was a 'fundamentalist' Christian, I was anti-gay.
In medical school I learnt 'theory', but it was in 500L when I came face-to-face with a 33-yr old male pseudo-hermaphrodite in Ogbomosho, that I got the jolt of my life, because there was absolutely nothing we could do for him/her in that village setting.
Dressed in maxi-dress and head-tie, with earrings, and s/he genuflected when s/he walked in, said, "e kaaro sir", and the deep bass voice almost threw me off my seat!
S/he was huge but not muscular, no breasts or bum, s/he had a tiny blind-ending vagina, no womb, no ovaries; had testes in the abdomen.
S/he had been socialised as a female all his/her life, and though it was a Baptist Hospital, religious considerations were the last thing on our minds!
We just did repeated bouginage (expansion/elongation) of the vagina, so that someday, if lucky, it might be wide and deep enough to accommodate a small penis, so s/he can have sex and feel 'normal' (you can only imagine the stigma in a village setting, his/her chances are zero, I didn't envisage a happy ending). S/he was also planned for surgery to remove the testes (to reduce the testosterone and also the cancer risk). That was back in 1999 (no access to high-fallutin technology), by now s/he would be about 50yrs old and I have often wondered what became of him/her (I hope not suicide).
Since then I have seen various variants, especially in psychiatry, where you are often expected to help sort out the psychosocial issues, non-judgmentally.
The reason they are lumped together as LGBTQIA, is that, they are all related, the issues are the same.
I must confess I still cringe (in my mind only) with disgust, but, I think, with experience over the years, I am getting better at keeping it under control. I feel a lot of empathy, and try to contribute the little help I can.
If you had met this Ogbomosho wo/man on the road, wouldn't you be asking why 'he' is dressed as a woman and behaving like one, in spite of 'his' 'strong face', large Adam's apple, deep bass voice, no breasts, no bum? You might even condemn 'him' in your mind, or to 'his' face, simply because you don't know the whole story. Newsflash: 'she' actually believes 'she' is female, and so did 'her' parents who raised 'her' up as one. What's 'her' gender identity? Female! This is in spite of having XY chromosomes, having testes and high levels of testosterone! What's her sexual orientation? Clue - can be homosexual, bisexual or asexual... anything BUT heterosexual; whose fault would that be?
You as a man, would you marry this 'woman', knowing:
- her voice is a deeper bass than yours
- she has no breasts or bum
- she has no curves, and her face 'strong pass your own'.
- she has no womb, no ovaries, so would never conceive
- she is XY like you, and has testes like you
- you can't have sex with her because her vagina is like that of a new-born baby - would not even admit the tip of your little finger
Assuming she decides to move to a different town where she is unknown, and start dressing and behaving like a man, you as a woman, would you marry this 'man', knowing:
- he has no penis, instead, he has a vagina like yours
- his testes are in his abdomen, and are very unlikely to produce sperms, but more likely to become cancerous
- he still knows deep down, that he is a woman, despite the outward appearance of a man
Ok, now that nobody has agreed to marry him/her, are you now suggesting s/he should remain single all her life, shouldn't love and be loved, shouldn't have oral or anal sex with a woman or a man, shouldn't dream of having children by IVF or adoption, etc?
Should s/he just ignore all attractions, emotions and sexual drives, move into a convent or monastery (even if she has no interest in Catholicism) and remain celibate till death?
Would you call him/her mentally disordered because s/he would not have a stable or straight-forward gender and sexual identity and orientation ( let's face it: whichever one s/he is inclined towards would be the wrong one!)
Is s/he likely to face a tumultuous life, whichever direction she goes?
Is s/he likely to develop a mental illness due to all these pressures?
Would it be fair for you to stigmatise this unfortunate wo/man, condemn and persecute him/her simply because s/he doesn't fit into your neat male/female categories, or because s/he explores sexuality in a different way than what your scriptures dictate?
This is not a hypothetical scenario, we are talking about a real human being with real problems, that have no straight-forward answers, due to no direct fault of his/hers. Now you know this one' s story, so you might be more understanding, but do you ever attempt to know the whole stories of all those people you are condemning?
Don't be quick to condemn what you know absolutely nothing about. These people need support and understanding, they have enough problems already, don't add more to their burdens.
The best you can do is do your own research and understand it more, and since you can't help them, why not just let them be?[/b]

AllNaijaBlogger:



What does a man who does surgery to become a woman have to do with christianity?

joseph1013:
Please read the post again. This time, more carefully.

CLUE: "He created them male and female..." (Gen 5:2)

AllNaijaBlogger:



Yes and so? Does it stop a man from changing his gender?

joseph1013:
How is an hermaphrodite changing its gender?

Is a hermaphrodite also part of 'male and female'?

AllNaijaBlogger:


Hermaphrodite is both genders. But Jenner isnt a hermaphrodite.

joseph1013:
[b]THE PAEDOPHILE ARGUMENT

I was chatting with a muslim friend today and she probed me on my stance on the homosexuality case that has been ruled in the US. I told her exactly what I said in one of my posts here. I dont care what happens between two adults that are mutaully consenting to each other. Like most religionists, she poured her displeasures on why God hates it and then added another of the silly arguments I have heard a thousand times.

She said hat making homosexual sex legal will lead to making paedophile sex legal. This style of argument is known as the slippery slope fallacy--it does not follow that legalising one will inevitably lead to the other.

And there is a good reason why one will not lead to the other. Like all interpersonal sex, homosexual sex is legal only between freely consenting adults. Paedophile sex can never be between freely consenting adults because one party, by definition, is never an adult.

There is also an evidential reason to dismiss this argument. There are 117 countries in which homosexuality is legal. It has been legal in Martinique since 1791, in Brazil since 1831, Mexico since 1871 and in Argentina since 1887. So, there's been plenty of time for the slippery slope to operate.

Now, how many countries have legalised paedophile sex? Precisely none.[/b]

timonski:

so do you believe in the non-existence of god?

joseph1013:


Then I refer you to the Maslow Hierarchy of Needs. If his in-born aggressiveness is his idea of self-actualization, then he'd let go if it will hinder Love/Belonging and Esteem.

You seem to think nature trumps nurture when it has to do with behaviour. Why is that?

PastorAIO:


Maslow's hierarachy is derailing from my point. I'm suggesting that if there is an essential character to a person, an innate core, then Society's values can detract him from that and while he becomes a model citizen of that society he will have an deep sense of discontent.

joseph1013:


What can be more of an innate core of a person than his GENETIC makeup? And this is where the nature (genes) vs nurture (society) question arises again?

Isn't it possible for a man to raise above the this-is-just-the-way-I-am syndrome and still be remarkably better off? Or are we always at the mercy of our 'essential character' such that it alone determines our ultimate happiness?

PastorAIO:


A man with a certain genetic make up eats lots of food with high protein and grows very tall.

A man with the exact same genetic trait for height eats food with less protein and doesn't grow as tall.

What is the essential true height for that genetic trait?

In other words, Do genes determine your core self or does it just provide you with a range of possibilities?

NB. Genes are not primal urges.

NB. I'm being hypothetical when I say of genetics, 'Let us take that as the adamant core'.