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Re: My Thoughts And Questions About Religion by PastorAIO: 9:27am On Aug 10, 2015
joseph1013:
YOU REALLY CAN FIND GOD

Christians often implore me to seek God. If I do, they assure me I will find him. But I already know they are right.

When the ancient Greeks sought God they found Zeus and Aphrodite, the ancient Iranians found Ahura Mazda, Hindus today find Vishnu, Brahma plus a host of other gods and Christians find Jesus and Yahweh. Humans have found many thousands of gods over millennia.

Finding gods is not the problem--humans are very proficient at it. The gods do not even have to exist yet humans can still find them. The problem for humans is not finding gods, it is demonstrating that their gods are real.

That is something that has never been accomplished.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-j8ZMMuu7MU

2 Likes 2 Shares

Re: My Thoughts And Questions About Religion by joseph1013: 11:04am On Aug 10, 2015
PastorAIO:



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-j8ZMMuu7MU

Wow...this video is simply awesome. There's a lot of psychology in religion.
Re: My Thoughts And Questions About Religion by PastorAIO: 11:43am On Aug 10, 2015
joseph1013:


Wow...this video is simply awesome. There's a lot of psychology in religion.

There is a lot of psychology in all facets of human behaviour.
Re: My Thoughts And Questions About Religion by menesheh(m): 11:45am On Aug 10, 2015

1 Like 1 Share

Re: My Thoughts And Questions About Religion by joseph1013: 12:02pm On Aug 10, 2015
PastorAIO:


There is a lot of psychology in all facets of human behaviour.

I can't disagree with that. What we can examine is the degree to which it is used to manipulate people and keep them in chains.

2 Likes

Re: My Thoughts And Questions About Religion by PastorAIO: 12:05pm On Aug 10, 2015
joseph1013:


I can't disagree with that. What we can examine is the degree to which it is used to manipulate people and keep them in chains.

And also if we can understand the causes that drive our behaviour we will be in a better position to come to some harmony with ourselves and our environment. In other words, we would be able to do religion better.
Re: My Thoughts And Questions About Religion by Nobody: 8:49pm On Aug 10, 2015
joseph1013:
Is there any Christian in the House? I was discussing with someone today about suffering and why God (if he exists) allows it. He gave me alot of answers and one of them struck me. He said God does what he likes and no one should question him.

I was born into a Christian home but I am also a sceptic and always ready to question religious teachings of any church, mosque, synagogue or temple. And I am particularly fond of the question why God would allow suffering. I will try to approach this question based on what you have quoted below. I would have used a broader access to this question, that includes other (religious and non-religious) teachings but let us stay within the realm of Christianity for now since this is where you are coming from.

I showed him this and asked him if this was right

Amos 4:6-13New International Version (NIV)

6 “I gave you empty stomachs in every city
and lack of bread in every town,
[b]yet you have not returned to me
,”
declares the Lord.

7 “I also withheld rain from you
when the harvest was still three months away.
I sent rain on one town,
but withheld it from another.
One field had rain;
another had none and dried up.

8 People staggered from town to town for water
but did not get enough to drink,
yet you have not returned to me,”
declares the Lord.

9 “Many times I struck your gardens and vineyards,
destroying them with blight and mildew.
Locusts devoured your fig and olive trees,
yet you have not returned to me,”
declares the Lord.

10 “I sent plagues among you
as I did to Egypt.
I killed your young men with the sword,
along with your captured horses.
I filled your nostrils with the stench of your camps,
yet you have not returned to me,”
declares the Lord.

11 “I overthrew some of you
as I overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah.
You were like a burning stick snatched from the fire,
yet you have not returned to me,”
declares the Lord.

12 “Therefore this is what I will do to you, Israel,
and because I will do this to you, Israel,
prepare to meet your God
.”

The repetition of "yet you have not returned to me" is what is, in my view, based on the quote you chose, crucial to answering the question why God would not only allow suffering but also inflict suffering on humans. He inflicted suffering on some humans, but not others, because he wanted them to RETURN to him and to MEET him.

You know, this accurately depicts a wicked, psychopathic and vengeful personality. If a human does this, the world would be in uproar with condemnation. But a God can be said to have done it and believers will say he is free to do what he wants. Why should that be?

For you to say that God depicts a "wicked, psychopathic, vengeful personality", it means that you consider suffering as something "evil". This is one possible perspective but it is subjective and hence the opinion that God is a "wicked, psychopathic, vengeful" personality is a very subjective perspective. Who says (s)he / it is a personality at all? cheesy But more importantly, who says that suffering is "evil"?

For those who says that God has changed. That the New Testament God is different from the Old Testament God, here is the problem:

I don't agree with people who see it that way. Again, subjective.

Do you excuse a man who has caused untold hardship on people just because of an appearance of goodness? Do you erase the faults of a person who feels no remorse for doing horrendous deeds in the past simply because he is said to have done a few miracles today?

You decide![/b]

Again, your opinion is based on two premises:

a. God is a man and a personality.
b. Suffering is bad, evil, something negative, something that possibly serves no purpose.
Re: My Thoughts And Questions About Religion by joseph1013: 8:02am On Aug 11, 2015
Mindfulness:


I was born into a Christian home but I am also a sceptic and always ready to question religious teachings of any church, mosque, synagogue or temple. And I am particularly fond of the question why God would allow suffering. I will try to approach this question based on what you have quoted below. I would have used a broader access to this question, that includes other (religious and non-religious) teachings but let us stay within the realm of Christianity for now since this is where you are coming from.

The repetition of "yet you have not returned to me" is what is, in my view, based on the quote you chose, crucial to answering the question why God would not only allow suffering but also inflict suffering on humans. He inflicted suffering on some humans, but not others, because he wanted them to RETURN to him and to MEET him.

[b]Welcome! Something tells me I will love this...

Hmmm...he inflicted suffering on some humans, but not others, because he wanted them to RETURN to him and to MEET him. Interesting...

Can you reconcile suffering to cause repentance with these verses in Scriptures?

Psalms 145:9
The LORD is good to all, And His mercies are over all His works.

Psalms 136:1
Give thanks to the LORD, for He is good, For His lovingkindness is everlasting.

How do you reconcile a God who is said to be good to all with one who inflicts great suffering on those who does good to all as seen in the above verses?

Another angle, you say you are a believer, or you come from a Christian home. (Are you a Christian?) So let me ask you, if God does good to those who do good to him and he makes people who reject him suffer, how is he better than an average human being. In all honesty, even an average human is better than God because while an average human might want to be vengeful but is unwilling to face the wrath of the law for his actions, God is supposedly said to be above the law. So he does what he likes however he likes.

The behaviour of making men who reject him suffer defines a person who is a psychopath, sociopath, maniac and someone suffering from schizophrenia.

That behaviour is criminal in every country in the civilized world today.[/b]



For you to say that God depicts a "wicked, psychopathic, vengeful personality", it means that you consider suffering as something "evil". This is one possible perspective but it is subjective and hence the opinion that God is a "wicked, psychopathic, vengeful" personality is a very subjective perspective. Who says (s)he / it is a personality at all? cheesy But more importantly, who says that suffering is "evil"?

[b]Are you aware that even God knows that suffering is evil? Consider this from the book of Job:

Job 2 (NLT)
3 Then the Lord asked Satan, “Have you noticed my servant Job?
He is the finest man in all the earth. He is blameless—a man of
complete integrity. He fears God and stays away from evil. And
he has maintained his integrity, even though you urged me to
harm him without cause.”

4 Satan replied to the Lord, “Skin for skin! A man will give up
everything he has to save his life. 5 But reach out and take away
his health, and he will surely curse you to your face!”

6 “All right, do with him as you please,” the Lord said to Satan.
“But spare his life.” 7 So Satan left the Lord’s presence, and
he struck Job with terrible boils from head to foot.

8 Job scraped his skin with a piece of broken pottery as he sat
among the ashes. 9 His wife said to him, “Are you still trying to
maintain your integrity? Curse God and die.”

10 But Job replied, “You talk like a foolish woman. Should we accept
only good things from the hand of God and never anything bad?”
So in all this, Job said nothing wrong.

11 When three of Job’s friends heard of the tragedy he had suffered,
they got together and traveled from their homes to comfort and console
him.

This account of Job's suffering makes us understand that God knows that the afflictions visited upon Job was evil. He sanctioned it to prove himself right but he knows that what Job was going through was not deserved.

[/b]


Again, your opinion is based on two premises:

a. God is a man and a personality.
b. Suffering is bad, evil, something negative, something that possibly serves no purpose.

[b]Seriously, I keep hearing new things from believers every day, especially Nigerian Christians (if you are one). I have NEVER NEVER EVER heard anyone deny that God is a personality. NEVER! Not a single theologian. Not a single pastor. Not even the most indifferent Christian have I heard voice that God is not a personality.

And the reason is this: the Bible itself tells us that God is a person.

Here is the definition of a personality:

personality
pəːsəˈnalɪti/
noun

the combination of characteristics or qualities that form an individual's distinctive character.

Absolutely! There is huge library of proof that God is a person (though not human) rather than merely an idea or thing, and He shares common characteristics with man. Theism (Judaism, Christianity and Islam) teach that God is a person. That is, He has emotion and shares characteristics of personhood with angels and men.

Scripture ascribes intellect and emotion to God. These relate to self-consciousness.

Romans 11:33
Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God!
How unsearchable are his judgments and how fathomless his ways!

1 John 4:8 The person who does not love does not know God, because
God is love.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow concerning his promise, as some
regard slowness, but is being patient toward you, because he does not
wish for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

Personal pronouns are used of God in Scripture. I, He, My, etc. rather than it, that, etc.

Names of God reveal His personality. For examples, El Shaddai means Almighty One full of grace and mercy; El Roi means the God who sees me. Consider...

Genesis 16:13
So Hagar named the Lord who spoke to her, “You are the God who
sees me,” for she said, “Here I have seen one who sees me!”

The personality of man provides strong evidence for the personality of God. Consider...

Genesis 1:26-27
Then God said, “Let us make humankind in our image, after our likeness,
so they may rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over
the cattle, and over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move
on the earth.” God created humankind in his own image, in the image of
God he created them, male and female he created them.[/b]


Your opinion is based premised on the fact that Suffering is bad, evil, something negative, something that possibly serves no purpose.

My opinion is based on the fact that suffering may serve a purpose for God which in this context is repentance but it reveals a God that is not all-loving. It reveals a God that is blood-thirty, blood-letting, wicked and one that would resort to the cruelest of things to have his way.

That is the picture I see all through the Old Testament. In fact it is difficult to see a single thing that God did in the Old Testament that would not land him in the court of law in the 21st century. Can you help me out with any of such acts?

3 Likes

Re: My Thoughts And Questions About Religion by Nobody: 1:18pm On Aug 11, 2015
joseph1013:

[b]Welcome! Something tells me I will love this...

Hmmm...he inflicted suffering on some humans, but not others, because he wanted them to RETURN to him and to MEET him. Interesting...

Can you reconcile suffering to cause repentance with these verses in Scriptures?

Psalms 145:9
The LORD is good to all, And His mercies are over all His works.

Let me start with this one. Yes, you can reconcile it if you want to. Assuming that suffering serves a good purpose, it may be necessary and therefore good.

Psalms 136:1
Give thanks to the LORD, for He is good, For His lovingkindness is everlasting.

How do you reconcile a God who is said to be good to all with one who inflicts great suffering on those who does good to all as seen in the above verses?

Like I said, it again depends on your attitude to suffering. Have you never seen humans who went through hardships and at the end came out stronger and wiser? You are still stuck to the the perspective that suffering is necessarily something evil and unnecessary.

Another angle, you say you are a believer, or you come from a Christian home. (Are you a Christian?)

I do NOT consider myself a Christian but I do embrace some of the Christian values, you can do so without being a Christian in the traditional sense.

So let me ask you, if God does good to those who do good to him and he makes people who reject him suffer, how is he better than an average human being. In all honesty, even an average human is better than God because while an average human might want to be vengeful but is unwilling to face the wrath of the law for his actions, God is supposedly said to be above the law. So he does what he likes however he likes.

Well, this is a very subjective interpretation of what God does or does not do. God is, according to the Bible, not so simple. He does also inflict suffering on those who are faithful to him. The Book of Job illustrates that very clearly.


The behaviour of making men who reject him suffer defines a person who is a psychopath, sociopath, maniac and someone suffering from schizophrenia.

That behaviour is criminal in every country in the civilized world today.[/b]

Like I said, your opinion is based on the premise that suffering is bad and serves no purpose. And like I said, good humans suffer too. This is part of the human experience. Every human being suffers at one time or at another. This is what the Bible tells us and this can also be observed by any of us.


[b]Are you aware that even God knows that suffering is evil? Consider this from the book of Job:

Job 2 (NLT)
3 Then the Lord asked Satan, “Have you noticed my servant Job?
He is the finest man in all the earth. He is blameless—a man of
complete integrity. He fears God and stays away from evil. And
he has maintained his integrity, even though you urged me to
harm him without cause.”

4 Satan replied to the Lord, “Skin for skin! A man will give up
everything he has to save his life. 5 But reach out and take away
his health, and he will surely curse you to your face!”

6 “All right, do with him as you please,” the Lord said to Satan.
“But spare his life.” 7 So Satan left the Lord’s presence, and
he struck Job with terrible boils from head to foot.

8 Job scraped his skin with a piece of broken pottery as he sat
among the ashes. 9 His wife said to him, “Are you still trying to
maintain your integrity? Curse God and die.”
10 But Job replied, “You talk like a foolish woman. Should we accept
only good things from the hand of God and never anything bad?”
So in all this, Job said nothing wrong.

11 When three of Job’s friends heard of the tragedy he had suffered,
they got together and traveled from their homes to comfort and console
him.

This account of Job's suffering makes us understand that God knows that the afflictions visited upon Job was evil. He sanctioned it to prove himself right but he knows that what Job was going through was not deserved.

[/b]



Good you mention Job. I have also mentioned the story from the Bible before I saw this part of your quote.
First of all, God says nowhere that suffering is evil but he does say that Job does not deserve it. Job, on his part, accepts whatever experience God / life gives him without judging God. What does it tell us about Job's attitude? And what can his attitude teach US?


[b]Seriously, I keep hearing new things from believers every day, especially Nigerian Christians (if you are one). I have NEVER NEVER EVER heard anyone deny that God is a personality. NEVER! Not a single theologian. Not a single pastor. Not even the most indifferent Christian have I heard voice that God is not a personality.

Like I said, I do NOT consider myself a Christian. I have my own way of thinking. I try to stay free of dogmas or in other words from mental bondage.

And the reason is this: the Bible itself tells us that God is a person.

Here is the definition of a personality:



Absolutely! There is huge library of proof that God is a person (though not human) rather than merely an idea or thing, and He shares common characteristics with man. Theism (Judaism, Christianity and Islam) teach that God is a person. That is, He has emotion and shares characteristics of personhood with angels and men.
Scripture ascribes intellect and emotion to God. These relate to self-consciousness.

This is interesting but this is not a definition of personality, at best, an attempt to define what a personality consists of.

Scripture ascribes intellect and emotion to God. Well, scripture was written and re-written by humans, translated and re-translated and is therefore limited to the experience that is conveyed by language. Language is limited and can lead to misunderstandings. It should therefore be treated with caution and questioned. I guess we both agree on this.

Do the following experiment if you have the opportunity. Tell someone a short story. Then tell the person to tell another person, who has not yet heard the story. And then tell the third person to re-tell the story to a fourth person and then ask the fourth person to tell you the story again. I am sure the story will be AT LEAST slightly modified.

@bold

This is the most interesting part of all.
God is consciousness. Every human being is consciousness. We all look different, have different positions and different roles to play. All of them are temporary. You may be a doctor today but you will be a retiree in the future. With your parents, you are a son but with your kids you are the father. You may be a patient person or hot-tempered. You may be patient in one moment but impatient in another. Who are you? Your name, your race, your tribe, your profession? You are all this and then nothing of all. It is temporary but you are always consciousness. If God is consciousness and we were all created in "HIS" image, then we are all consciousness and that's what we all are, regardless of race, social position or social role.

Romans 11:33
Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God!
How unsearchable are his judgments and how fathomless his ways!
1 John 4:8 The person who does not love does not know God, because
God is love.

God is love does not mean that God is personality. Is love a personality?

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow concerning his promise, as some
regard slowness, but is being patient toward you, because he does not
wish for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

Again, attributes like slow or patient do not necessarily mean that God is a personality. A dog can be slow and patient, is a dog a personality? It is open for debate. However, I am not an expert on scripture, I am not a priest, I do not even consider myself a Christian. I am just sharing my thoughts with you, which may or may not be right or wrong.

Personal pronouns are used of God in Scripture. I, He, My, etc. rather than it, that, etc.

You are absolutely right but like I said, humans have written and re-written the Bible and language is a tricky way to approach spiritual topics, which at times, can only be experienced, not thought or told.

The scripture says that God created humans in "HIS" image. If God is a man, are women not humans? Were they not created in "HIS" image?
(This is the reason I have always tried to put his in quotation marks because I do not believe that God is a person(ality), neither do I believe that "he" is a man or woman. This is my very personal belief.

Names of God reveal His personality. For examples, El Shaddai means Almighty One full of grace and mercy; El Roi means the God who sees me. Consider...

How does Almighty One or One who sees me reveal a personality? Mosquitos can see too, are they a personality?

Genesis 16:13
So Hagar named the Lord who spoke to her, “You are the God who
sees me,” for she said, “Here I have seen one who sees me!”

Again, think of the mosquito.

The personality of man provides strong evidence for the personality of God. Consider...

Genesis 1:26-27
Then God said, “Let us make humankind in our image, after our likeness,
so they may rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over
the cattle, and over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move
on the earth.” God created humankind in his own image, in the image of
God he created them, male and female he created them.[/b]

I have already talked about God and the creation of humans in "HIS" image. If God, according to the Bibel, created MEN AND WOMEN in "HIS" image, what is God, male, female, both? I

I think that over hundreds of years nobody has ever truly understood much of what the Bible teaches us, apart maybe from a few Buddhists grin


My opinion is based on the fact that suffering may serve a purpose for God which in this context is repentance but it reveals a God that is not all-loving. It reveals a God that is blood-thirty, blood-letting, wicked and one that would resort to the cruelest of things to have his way.

Yes, if you consider suffering "evil" and useless. I see it differently. Suffering was what made me grow. And looking back in my life, in retrospective, every hardship made sense. And from the eternal perspective, suffering was nothing but a short period and a lesson that helped me develop my consciousness and compassion.

That is the picture I see all through the Old Testament. In fact it is difficult to see a single thing that God did in the Old Testament that would not land him in the court of law in the 21st century. Can you help me out with any of such acts?

Let us for a moment assume that there is a God for sure. God created the world and the whole (amazing, mysterious, spectacular) universe. Would you doubt his sense of judgement like you do that of your fellow humans who cannot create anything that comes close to the creation of the universe? Or would you rather become more humble and trust that "someone" who was able to create the Earth, the Moon, the stars, the sky and all of the millions of different creatures that populate the world knows what (s)he / it is doing?
Re: My Thoughts And Questions About Religion by joseph1013: 2:45pm On Aug 11, 2015
Mindfulness:


Let me start with this one. Yes, you can reconcile it if you want to. Assuming that suffering serves a good purpose, it may be necessary and therefore good.

Of course, you can by rationalization. People have been doing it for centuries. What we should ask is if it passes the test of logic. This does not.



Like I said, it again depends on your attitude to suffering. Have you never seen humans who went through hardships and at the end came out stronger and wiser? You are still stuck to the the perspective that suffering is necessarily something evil and unnecessary.

Yes I have. I have also seen people who went through hardships and come off worse. Worst still, we have all heard of people who went through suffering and died. We have heard of kids in Somalia who died because of preventable diseases. We have heard of kids forced to engage in suicide bombers by Boko Haram.

The point is that you can use uncommon examples of people who rise above personal suffering to justify millions who do not.

I say that tens of thousand of children who experience pain and death in the hands of malaria every year is something evil and unnecessary if you hold on to the fact that there is a god who allows that.



I do NOT consider myself a Christian but I do embrace some of the Christian values, you can do so without being a Christian in the traditional sense.

[b]They are not necessarily christian values. They can be rightly termed humanity values. Consider the Golden rule that Christians pride themselves in. Aside the commandment to love God, loving one's neighbour is the most important commandment Jesus gave. By no means is it exclusive to the Bible. In fact, people have believed in that before the Bible was written.

See examples:

"Never impose on others what you would not choose for yourself." – Confucius (Ancient China)

"Avoid doing what you would blame others for doing." – Thales (624 BC – 546 BC) (Ancient Greece)

"expect from others what you did to them" - Seneca (Ancient Rome)

"Why does a man inflict upon other creatures those sufferings, which he has found by experience are sufferings to himself ?" - Tiruvaḷḷuvar (200 BC – 500 AD) (Tamil tradition)

Check out any noteworthy deed in the Bible and you will realize it is nothing exclusive. These human values have been around for generations past gone.[/b]




Well, this is a very subjective interpretation of what God does or does not do. God is, according to the Bible, not so simple. He does also inflict suffering on those who are faithful to him. The Book of Job illustrates that very clearly.




Like I said, your opinion is based on the premise that suffering is bad and serves no purpose. And like I said, good humans suffer too. This is part of the human experience. Every human being suffers at one time or at another. This is what the Bible tells us and this can also be observed by any of us.

[b]When we speak about suffering, we are not speaking about you hitting your leg against the stone while working. We are not even speaking about failing your exams. We are speaking about the fact that during the minute that it takes me to compose this sentence, thousands of
animals are being eaten alive, many others are running for their lives, whimpering with fear, others are slowly being devoured from within
by rasping parasites, thousands of all kinds are dying of starvation, thirst, and disease.

We are saying what can satisfactorily account for the sufferings of women and children? In what way will god justify religious persecution—the flame and sword of religious hatred? Why will god sit idly on his throne and allow his enemies to wet their swords in the blood of his friends?
Why will he not answer the prayers of the imprisoned, of the helpless? And when he heard the lash upon the naked back of the slave, why did he not also hear the prayer of the slave? And when children were sold from the breasts of mothers, why was he deaf to the mother's cry?[/b]



Good you mention Job. I have also mentioned the story from the Bible before I saw this part of your quote.
First of all, God says nowhere that suffering is evil but he does say that Job does not deserve it. Job, on his part, accepts whatever experience God / life gives him without judging God. What does it tell us about Job's attitude? And what can his attitude teach US?

Cmon...if you believe that the devil is the father of evil and that nothing good comes from him, how can you not believe that what he was doing to Job was evil?

First of all that story is a fable but if it were true, it can be explain the way we explain why a pastor will choose to allow his child suffering from a life-threatening disease die in the 'hands of God' than take the child to the hospital. People do stupid things for religious reasons.


This is interesting but this is not a definition of personality, at best, an attempt to define what a personality consists of.

Na wa o. I gave you a definition from the Oxford Advanced Learner's Dictionary and you say it is not a definition. Funny.

Scripture ascribes intellect and emotion to God. Well, scripture was written and re-written by humans, translated and re-translated and is therefore limited to the experience that is conveyed by language. Language is limited and can lead to misunderstandings. It should therefore be treated with caution and questioned. I guess we both agree on this.

Do the following experiment if you have the opportunity. Tell someone a short story. Then tell the person to tell another person, who has not yet heard the story. And then tell the third person to re-tell the story to a fourth person and then ask the fourth person to tell you the story again. I am sure the story will be AT LEAST slightly modified.

So you believe that the Bible is not inerrant and not an accurate description of God. So what are we discussing about? If you believe the Bible can not be relied upon to describe God, then there is no use for this discussion. You cannot argue from the Bible and when I decide to give you a dosage of your medicine carpet me by saying the parts I have quoted do not accurate describe him. That's double crossing.

@bold

This is the most interesting part of all.
God is consciousness. Every human being is consciousness. We all look different, have different positions and different roles to play. All of them are temporary. You may be a doctor today but you will be a retiree in the future. With your parents, you are a son but with your kids you are the father. You may be a patient person or hot-tempered. You may be patient in one moment but impatient in another. Who are you? Your name, your race, your tribe, your profession? You are all this and then nothing of all. It is temporary but you are always consciousness. If God is consciousness and we were all created in "HIS" image, then we are all consciousness and that's what we all are, regardless of race, social position or social role.

See what I'm talking about? You accept the part of scriptures that say God is conscious and alive and we are created in his image, yet you talk of misinterpretation and language being subject to misinterpretation when I say ascribe intellect and emotion to God. Double standard!



God is love does not mean that God is personality. Is love a personality?



Again, attributes like slow or patient do not necessarily mean that God is a personality. A dog can be slow and patient, is a dog a personality? It is open for debate. However, I am not an expert on scripture, I am not a priest, I do not even consider myself a Christian. I am just sharing my thoughts with you, which may or may not be right or wrong.



You are absolutely right but like I said, humans have written and re-written the Bible and language is a tricky way to approach spiritual topics, which at times, can only be experienced, not thought or told.

The scripture says that God created humans in "HIS" image. If God is a man, are women not humans? Were they not created in "HIS" image?
(This is the reason I have always tried to put his in quotation marks because I do not believe that God is a person(ality), neither do I believe that "he" is a man or woman. This is my very personal belief.



How does Almighty One or One who sees me reveal a personality? Mosquitos can see too, are they a personality?



Again, think of the mosquito.

You sir should read up what a person is. Only a person has the attributes I wrote about. And I say it again, if you are arguing the Abrahamic perspective then I say you are left on your own because the question of if God is a personality or not is not open to debate in the thousands of theology schools around the world. Even quack pastors in Nigeria do not say God is not a person.

If I give you a definition from Oxford done by Emeritus professors of English and Literature and you say it is not correct, then I have no greater authority to appeal to again.




I have already talked about God and the creation of humans in "HIS" image. If God, according to the Bibel, created MEN AND WOMEN in "HIS" image, what is God, male, female, both?

The God of the Bible is a patriarchal god and therefore you will see him all over scriptures using the male term. He even avoided talking about women in the genealogy of Jesus.

I think that over hundreds of years nobody has ever truly understood much of what the Bible teaches us, apart maybe from a few Buddhists grin


Now is not the time to go over to Buddhism. Let's stay on point. How do you know that people never understood the Bible and that you now do? How do you know what countless researchers in the past do not know and you simply now have the mind of God? I'd really like to have an answer to this question.


Yes, if you consider suffering "evil" and useless. I see it differently. Suffering was what made me grow. And looking back in my life, in retrospective, every hardship made sense. And from the eternal perspective, suffering was nothing but a short period and a lesson that helped me develop my consciousness and compassion.

Now I can clearly see where you are coming from and that's why intuitively I said the suffering I'm talking about does not refer to you going broke, looking for admission for five years or not getting a job after three years of NYSC.

I'm talking of something like this:



Now that picture is an image taken in Sudan of a child starving and a vulture waiting patiently for the child to die and then feed on his body. That's the bl**dy f**k I'm talking about. I'm not referring to you not having appetizers to start your Dinner meals.


Let us for a moment assume that there is a God for sure. God created the world and the whole (amazing, mysterious, spectacular) universe. Would you doubt his sense of judgement like you do that of your fellow humans who cannot create anything that comes close to the creation of the universe? Or would you rather become more humble and trust that "someone" who was able to create the Earth, the Moon, the stars, the sky and all of the millions of different creatures that populate the world knows what (s)he / it is doing?

[b]What are you on about? There are inventions of man that beat some of nature's best. And we are still evolving. You can take the telephone, the aircraft, the speedtrain, the huge skyscrapers, surgical operations, and the internet for granted today because man has made it so 'unspecial'. And yet with all these extra-wonderful inventions, we still doubt the sense of judgement of humans like ourselves. Infact, the foundation of science is skepticism; doubting everything that a fellow scientist says until there is enough evidence to proof his or her assertions. That is why we have grown so much over the centuries.

There is no doubt that the world we live in has such wonderful things, but overall the world is a pretty messed up place. Studying the world reveals that it is pretty much unintelligent design. The Earth, the Moon, the Stars are reveal unintelligent design if there is ever a designer.

One straight forward example, the human population is 7 billion...there is grave overpopulation in some parts of the world, yet the 70% of the world is water while 30% of the world is just land. Shouldn't intelligent design have given us more room?[/b]

4 Likes

Re: My Thoughts And Questions About Religion by joseph1013: 3:06pm On Aug 11, 2015
STILL ON SUFFERING...

This came up while responding to mindfulness comment and I thought to make a separate post.

When responding to difficult questions about God's nature such as his apparent failure to intervene on behalf of suffering children, it is common for Christians to maintain that, like a dog undergoing a painful medical procedure, we cannot understand God's purposes in all that happens; we must simply trust that God knows what he is doing.

This may be the case, but if so, how can anyone be held accountable for thinking like the dog, for failing to grasp that the purposes of God, if he exists, are good?

We do not blame the dog for its reaction to the medical procedure and then pierce him with a knife for refusing to understand. We never think of casting it into the fire for not having the commonsense to know that we have its best intentions at heart.

When I was younger, we raised goats and on several occasions, myself together with my mum have had to chain our goats in order to vaccinate them or treat them for certain infections. They always resisted and threw tantrums. They always gave me a hard time. It was always a strenuous period of chasing and holding them to the ground to ensure that we dont give them the injections in the wrong places. But tell you what, we never for once thought of hurting them because they did not allow us do our job. We never told them to 'go and die' because we perceived them to be uncooperative. No matter how long it took, we kept trying and trying and trying to make sure that we did our job. We never cast them into an open fire for refusing our 'purpose' for their temporary suffering.

If we cannot imagine a good reason for the starvation or slow death of a child or a chimpanzee due to leukemia, and our minds lead us to consider that God is either not good, not omnipotent, not omniscient, or nonexistent, is this grounds for the infinite wrath of God, even if he does in fact exist? Does God give us a mind and prevent us from drawing natural conclusions on pain of eternal punishment?

Why do we stop being logical and stop our reasoning faculties anytime God is mentioned?

4 Likes

Re: My Thoughts And Questions About Religion by Nobody: 3:45pm On Aug 11, 2015
joseph1013:


Of course, you can by rationalization. People have been doing it for centuries. What we should ask is if it passes the test of logic. This does not.

Ok.


Yes I have. I have also seen people who went through hardships and come off worse. Worst still, we have all heard of people who went through suffering and died. We have heard of kids in Somalia who died because of preventable diseases. We have heard of kids forced to engage in suicide bombers by Boko Haram.

The point is that you can use uncommon examples of people who rise above personal suffering to justify millions who do not.

I say that tens of thousand of children who experience pain and death in the hands of malaria every year is something evil and unnecessary if you hold on to the fact that there is a god who allows that.

How do you know that those who go through hard times and come off better are fewer than those who come off worse?
And who says that death is something evil and to be feared?

And then, did God force kids to become suicide bombers or humans?

As for the rest, you freedom of speech and opinion. I hold on to the freedom of no opinion, something that very few people have. cheesy


[b]They are not necessarily christian values. They can be rightly termed humanity values. Consider the Golden rule that Christians pride themselves in. Aside the commandment to love God, loving one's neighbour is the most important commandment Jesus gave. By no means is it exclusive to the Bible. In fact, people have believed in that before the Bible was written.

Who said they were necessarily Christian values?

See examples:

"Never impose on others what you would not choose for yourself." – Confucius (Ancient China)

"Avoid doing what you would blame others for doing." – Thales (624 BC – 546 BC) (Ancient Greece)

"expect from others what you did to them" - Seneca (Ancient Rome)

"Why does a man inflict upon other creatures those sufferings, which he has found by experience are sufferings to himself ?" - Tiruvaḷḷuvar (200 BC – 500 AD) (Tamil tradition)

Check out any noteworthy deed in the Bible and you will realize it is nothing exclusive. These human values have been around for generations past gone.[/b]

So?


[b]When we speak about suffering, we are not speaking about you hitting your leg against the stone while working. We are not even speaking about failing your exams. We are speaking about the fact that during the minute that it takes me to compose this sentence, thousands of
animals are being eaten alive, many others are running for their lives, whimpering with fear, others are slowly being devoured from within
by rasping parasites, thousands of all kinds are dying of starvation, thirst, and disease.

And so?

We are saying what can satisfactorily account for the sufferings of women and children? In what way will god justify religious persecution—the flame and sword of religious hatred? Why will god sit idly on his throne and allow his enemies to wet their swords in the blood of his friends?
Why will he not answer the prayers of the imprisoned, of the helpless? And when he heard the lash upon the naked back of the slave, why did he not also hear the prayer of the slave? And when children were sold from the breasts of mothers, why was he deaf to the mother's cry?[/b]

Does God justify anything? Does God need to justify anything?


Cmon...if you believe that the devil is the father of evil and that nothing good comes from him, how can you not believe that what he was doing to Job was evil?

Who told you I believe in the devil?

First of all that story is a fable but if it were true, it can be explain the way we explain why a pastor will choose to allow his child suffering from a life-threatening disease die in the 'hands of God' than take the child to the hospital. People do stupid things for religious reasons.

Absolutely but people also do great things for religious reasons.



Na wa o. I gave you a definition from the Oxford Advanced Learner's Dictionary and you say it is not a definition. Funny.

I don't think so. Just checked the definition in the Oxford Advanced Learner's Dictionary.
Is that your Bible, by the way? cheesy


So you believe that the Bible is not inerrant and not an accurate description of God. So what are we discussing about? If you believe the Bible can not be relied upon to describe God, then there is no use for this discussion. You cannot argue from the Bible and when I decide to give you a dosage of your medicine carpet me by saying the parts I have quoted do not accurate describe him. That's double crossing.

The Bible was written by humans. There are some passages that make sense to me and many that do not but to take the Bible literally is mental bondage and very dangerous.


See what I'm talking about? You accept the part of scriptures that say God is conscious and alive and we are created in his image, yet you talk of misinterpretation and language being subject to misinterpretation when I say ascribe intellect and emotion to God. Double standard!

I believe what I believe whether the Bible agrees with me or not. No double standards here, it just happens that some parts of the Bible resonate with me and others do not. I am not the slave of any religion. Do you believe that I have to accept the Bible 100% or reject it altogether? Why? And how is believing the Bible 100% any different from not believing it at all? Both are extreme attitudes and I avoid any form of extremism. wink


You sir should read up what a person is. Only a person has the attributes I wrote about. And I say it again, if you are arguing the Abrahamic perspective then I say you are left on your own because the question of if God is a personality or not is not open to debate in the thousands of theology schools around the world. Even quack pastors in Nigeria do not say God is not a person.

I enjoy being on my own very much so I will go with it. You can argue that God is a person, you do not know, neither do I. This is where faith or no faith come into the equation. Reason is a very limited tool.

If I give you a definition from Oxford done by Emeritus professors of English and Literature and you say it is not correct, then I have no greater authority to appeal to again.

Like I said, I have checked the definition in the dictionary and it goes as follows. Sorry, I don't remember you wrote the same.

[countable, uncountable] the various aspects of a person’s character that combine to make them different from other people
His wife has a strong personality.
The children all have very different personalities.
He maintained order by sheer force of personality.
There are likely to be tensions and personality clashes in any social group.
People’s clothes are often an expression of their personality.
[uncountable] the qualities of a person’s character that make them interesting and attractive
We need someone with lots of personality to head the project.
She was very beautiful but seemed to lack personality.
[countable] a famous person, especially one who works in entertainment or sport
synonym celebrity
personalities from the world of music
a TV/sports personality
[countable] a person whose strong character makes them noticeable
Their son is a real personality.
[uncountable] the qualities of a place or thing that make it interesting and different
synonym character
The problem with many modern buildings is that they lack personality.

http://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/definition/english/personality?q=personality



The God of the Bible is a patriarchal god and therefore you will see him all over scriptures using the male term. He even avoided talking about women in the genealogy of Jesus.

God wrote the Bible? cheesy


Now is not the time to go over to Buddhism. Let's stay on point. How do you know that people never understood the Bible and that you now do? How do you know what countless researchers in the past do not know and you simply now have the mind of God? I'd really like to have an answer to this question.

What researchers?

You claim that you can prove that God is a person using quotes from the Bible and I tried to show you that no of your points actually proves that God is a person. Read my last post again, please, this time with a mind more open.

Now consider this, since you are interested in Christianity and the Bible. I said right from the beginning that I like to take a broader perspective but it is ok.

Then Moses said to God, "Behold, I am going to the sons of Israel, and I will say to them, 'The God of your fathers has sent me to you.' Now they may say to me, 'What is His name?' What shall I say to them?" 14God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM"; and He said, "Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you.'"
Exodus 3:14

How do you read "I AM WHO I AM" and "I AM has sent me to you."

"Be still, and know that I am God!
Psalm 46:10

And how do you interpret this? Is it not stillness where you find God? What is stillness? The absence of noise, also mental noise in form of thoughts?


Now I can clearly see where you are coming from and that's why intuitively I said the suffering I'm talking about does not refer to you going broke, looking for admission for five years or not getting a job after three years of NYSC.

You do not know, you assume. Nothing what you have mentioned above is what I had on my mind. But we re not here to have a pity party, are we?

I'm talking of something like this:



Now that picture is an image taken in Sudan of a child starving and a vulture waiting patiently for the child to die and then feed on his body. That's the bl**dy f**k I'm talking about. I'm not referring to you not having appetizers to start your Dinner meals.

You are aware that the WHOLE WORLD could be fed and everyone could be sated. You do know that there is enough food for everyone? You do know that while 800 million people suffer from hunger in one part of the world, 600 million are overweight in another?

Now the so called intelligent species, the human, is not able to solve a problem that could be solved quite easily? With all their advanced reasoning and logic? Who is imposing suffering on other humans? God?


[b]What are you on about? There are inventions of man that beat some of nature's best. And we are still evolving. You can take the telephone, the aircraft, the speedtrain, the huge skyscrapers, surgical operations, and the internet for granted today because man has made it so 'unspecial'. And yet with all these extra-wonderful inventions, we still doubt the sense of judgement of humans like ourselves. Infact, the foundation of science is skepticism; doubting everything that a fellow scientist says until there is enough evidence to proof his or her assertions. That is why we have grown so much over the centuries.

I know that science has become like a new religion for people. Science is great but scientists have also erred and were sure that they were ABSOLUTELY right, they have also caused suffering and environmental pollution and despite all these inventions you are still able to post pictures of hungry children, like the one you posted. We are the only species that destroys themselves. We invented the atom bomb. Countries spend more money on weapons than on charity. Long live the human logic. cheesy

There is no doubt that the world we live in has such wonderful things, but overall the world is a pretty messed up place. Studying the world reveals that it is pretty much unintelligent design. The Earth, the Moon, the Stars are reveal unintelligent design if there is ever a designer.

Your opinion.

One straight forward example, the human population is 7 billion...there is grave overpopulation in some parts of the world, yet the 70% of the world is water while 30% of the world is just land. Shouldn't intelligent design have given us more room?[/b]

Did humans not invent something that is called contraceptives? Is God impregnating women? I could go deeper into this but I guess that this enough.

I like your way of thinking. I can follow and understand it even though I do not agree with every point you make. The debate is healthy though.

1 Like

Re: My Thoughts And Questions About Religion by Nobody: 3:49pm On Aug 11, 2015
joseph1013:


Of course, you can by rationalization. People have been doing it for centuries. What we should ask is if it passes the test of logic. This does not.

Ok.


Yes I have. I have also seen people who went through hardships and come off worse. Worst still, we have all heard of people who went through suffering and died. We have heard of kids in Somalia who died because of preventable diseases. We have heard of kids forced to engage in suicide bombers by Boko Haram.

The point is that you can use uncommon examples of people who rise above personal suffering to justify millions who do not.

I say that tens of thousand of children who experience pain and death in the hands of malaria every year is something evil and unnecessary if you hold on to the fact that there is a god who allows that.

How do you know that those who go through hard times and come off better are fewer than those who come off worse?
And who says that death is something evil and to be feared?

And then, did God force kids to become suicide bombers or humans?


[b]They are not necessarily christian values. They can be rightly termed humanity values. Consider the Golden rule that Christians pride themselves in. Aside the commandment to love God, loving one's neighbour is the most important commandment Jesus gave. By no means is it exclusive to the Bible. In fact, people have believed in that before the Bible was written.

Who said they were necessarily Christian values?

See examples:

"Never impose on others what you would not choose for yourself." – Confucius (Ancient China)

"Avoid doing what you would blame others for doing." – Thales (624 BC – 546 BC) (Ancient Greece)

"expect from others what you did to them" - Seneca (Ancient Rome)

"Why does a man inflict upon other creatures those sufferings, which he has found by experience are sufferings to himself ?" - Tiruvaḷḷuvar (200 BC – 500 AD) (Tamil tradition)

Check out any noteworthy deed in the Bible and you will realize it is nothing exclusive. These human values have been around for generations past gone.[/b]

So?


[b]When we speak about suffering, we are not speaking about you hitting your leg against the stone while working. We are not even speaking about failing your exams. We are speaking about the fact that during the minute that it takes me to compose this sentence, thousands of
animals are being eaten alive, many others are running for their lives, whimpering with fear, others are slowly being devoured from within
by rasping parasites, thousands of all kinds are dying of starvation, thirst, and disease.

And so?

We are saying what can satisfactorily account for the sufferings of women and children? In what way will god justify religious persecution—the flame and sword of religious hatred? Why will god sit idly on his throne and allow his enemies to wet their swords in the blood of his friends?
Why will he not answer the prayers of the imprisoned, of the helpless? And when he heard the lash upon the naked back of the slave, why did he not also hear the prayer of the slave? And when children were sold from the breasts of mothers, why was he deaf to the mother's cry?[/b]

Does God justify anything? Does God need to justify anything?


Cmon...if you believe that the devil is the father of evil and that nothing good comes from him, how can you not believe that what he was doing to Job was evil?

Who told you I believe in the devil?

First of all that story is a fable but if it were true, it can be explain the way we explain why a pastor will choose to allow his child suffering from a life-threatening disease die in the 'hands of God' than take the child to the hospital. People do stupid things for religious reasons.

Absolutely but people also do great things for religious reasons.



Na wa o. I gave you a definition from the Oxford Advanced Learner's Dictionary and you say it is not a definition. Funny.

I don't think so. Just checked the definition in the Oxford Advanced Learner's Dictionary.
Is that your Bible, by the way? cheesy


So you believe that the Bible is not inerrant and not an accurate description of God. So what are we discussing about? If you believe the Bible can not be relied upon to describe God, then there is no use for this discussion. You cannot argue from the Bible and when I decide to give you a dosage of your medicine carpet me by saying the parts I have quoted do not accurate describe him. That's double crossing.

The Bible was written by humans. There are some passages that make sense to me and many that do not but to take the Bible literally is mental bondage and very dangerous.


See what I'm talking about? You accept the part of scriptures that say God is conscious and alive and we are created in his image, yet you talk of misinterpretation and language being subject to misinterpretation when I say ascribe intellect and emotion to God. Double standard!

I believe what I believe whether the Bible agrees with me or not. No double standards here, it just happens that some parts of the Bible resonate with me and others do not. I am not the slave of any religion. Do you believe that I have to accept the Bible 100% or reject it altogether? Why? And how is believing the Bible 100% any different from not believing it at all? Both are extreme attitudes and I avoid any form of extremism. wink


You sir should read up what a person is. Only a person has the attributes I wrote about. And I say it again, if you are arguing the Abrahamic perspective then I say you are left on your own because the question of if God is a personality or not is not open to debate in the thousands of theology schools around the world. Even quack pastors in Nigeria do not say God is not a person.

I enjoy being on my own very much so I will go with it. You can argue that God is a person, you do not know, neither do I. This is where faith or no faith come into the equation. Reason is a very limited tool.

If I give you a definition from Oxford done by Emeritus professors of English and Literature and you say it is not correct, then I have no greater authority to appeal to again.

Like I said, I have checked the definition in the dictionary and it goes as follows. Sorry, I don't remember you wrote the same.

[countable, uncountable] the various aspects of a person’s character that combine to make them different from other people
His wife has a strong personality.
The children all have very different personalities.
He maintained order by sheer force of personality.
There are likely to be tensions and personality clashes in any social group.
People’s clothes are often an expression of their personality.
[uncountable] the qualities of a person’s character that make them interesting and attractive
We need someone with lots of personality to head the project.
She was very beautiful but seemed to lack personality.
[countable] a famous person, especially one who works in entertainment or sport
synonym celebrity
personalities from the world of music
a TV/sports personality
[countable] a person whose strong character makes them noticeable
Their son is a real personality.
[uncountable] the qualities of a place or thing that make it interesting and different
synonym character
The problem with many modern buildings is that they lack personality.

http://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/definition/english/personality?q=personality



The God of the Bible is a patriarchal god and therefore you will see him all over scriptures using the male term. He even avoided talking about women in the genealogy of Jesus.

God wrote the Bible? cheesy


Now is not the time to go over to Buddhism. Let's stay on point. How do you know that people never understood the Bible and that you now do? How do you know what countless researchers in the past do not know and you simply now have the mind of God? I'd really like to have an answer to this question.

What researchers?

You claim that you can prove that God is a person using quotes from the Bible and I tried to show you that no of your points actually proves that God is a person. Read my last post again, please, this time with a mind more open.

Now consider this, since you are interested in Christianity and the Bible. I said right from the beginning that I like to take a broader perspective but it is ok.

Then Moses said to God, "Behold, I am going to the sons of Israel, and I will say to them, 'The God of your fathers has sent me to you.' Now they may say to me, 'What is His name?' What shall I say to them?" 14God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM"; and He said, "Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you.'"
Exodus 3:14

How do you read "I AM WHO I AM" and "I AM has sent me to you."

"Be still, and know that I am God!
Psalm 46:10

And how do you interpret this? Is it not stillness where you find God? What is stillness? The absence of noise, also mental noise in form of thoughts?


Now I can clearly see where you are coming from and that's why intuitively I said the suffering I'm talking about does not refer to you going broke, looking for admission for five years or not getting a job after three years of NYSC.

You do not know, you assume. Nothing what you have mentioned above is what I had on my mind. But we are not here to have a pity party, are we?

I'm talking of something like this:



Now that picture is an image taken in Sudan of a child starving and a vulture waiting patiently for the child to die and then feed on his body. That's the bl**dy f**k I'm talking about. I'm not referring to you not having appetizers to start your Dinner meals.

You are aware that the WHOLE WORLD could be fed and everyone could be sated. You do know that there is enough food for everyone? You do know that while 800 million people suffer from hunger in one part of the world, 600 million are overweight in another?

Now the so called intelligent species, the human race, is not able to solve a problem that could be solved quite easily? With all their advanced reasoning and logic? Who is imposing suffering on other humans? God?


[b]What are you on about? There are inventions of man that beat some of nature's best. And we are still evolving. You can take the telephone, the aircraft, the speedtrain, the huge skyscrapers, surgical operations, and the internet for granted today because man has made it so 'unspecial'. And yet with all these extra-wonderful inventions, we still doubt the sense of judgement of humans like ourselves. Infact, the foundation of science is skepticism; doubting everything that a fellow scientist says until there is enough evidence to proof his or her assertions. That is why we have grown so much over the centuries.

I know that science has become like a new religion for people. Science is great but scientists have also erred and were sure that they were ABSOLUTELY right, they have also caused suffering and environmental pollution and despite all these inventions you are still able to post pictures of hungry children, like the one you posted. We are the only species that destroys themselves. We invented the atom bomb. Countries spend more money on weapons than on charity. Long live the human logic. cheesy

There is no doubt that the world we live in has such wonderful things, but overall the world is a pretty messed up place. Studying the world reveals that it is pretty much unintelligent design. The Earth, the Moon, the Stars are reveal unintelligent design if there is ever a designer.

Your opinion.

One straight forward example, the human population is 7 billion...there is grave overpopulation in some parts of the world, yet the 70% of the world is water while 30% of the world is just land. Shouldn't intelligent design have given us more room?[/b]
[/quote]

Did humans not invent something that is called contraceptives? Is God impregnating women? I could go deeper into this but I guess that this enough.

I like your way of thinking. I can follow and understand it even though I do not agree with every point you make. The debate is healthy though.
Re: My Thoughts And Questions About Religion by Nobody: 3:52pm On Aug 11, 2015
joseph1013:
[b]STILL ON SUFFERING...

This came up while responding to mindfulness comment and I thought to make a separate post.

When responding to difficult questions about God's nature such as his apparent failure to intervene on behalf of suffering children, it is common for Christians to maintain that, like a dog undergoing a painful medical procedure, we cannot understand God's purposes in all that happens; we must simply trust that God knows what he is doing.

This may be the case, but if so, how can anyone be held accountable for thinking like the dog, for failing to grasp that the purposes of God, if he exists, are good?

We do not blame the dog for its reaction to the medical procedure and then pierce him with a knife for refusing to understand. We never think of casting it into the fire for not having the commonsense to know that we have its best intentions at heart.

While younger, we raised goats and on several occasions, myself together with my mum have had to chain our goats in order to vaccinate them or treat them for certain infections. They always resist and throw tantrums. They always give me a hard time. It's always a strenuous period of chasing and holding them to the ground to ensure that we dont give them the injections in the wrong places. But tell you what, we never for once think of hurting them because they do not allow us do our job. We never tell me to 'go and die' because we perceive them to be uncooperative. No matter how long it takes, we keep trying and trying and trying to make sure that we do our job. We never cast them into an open fire for refusing our 'purpose' for their temporary suffering.

If we cannot imagine a good reason for the starvation or slow death of a child or a chimpanzee due to leukemia, and our minds lead us to consider that God is either not good, not omnipotent, not omniscient, or nonexistent, is this grounds for the infinite wrath of God, even if he does in fact exist? Does God give us a mind and prevent us from drawing natural conclusions on pain of eternal punishment?

Why do we stop being logical and stop our reasoning faculties anytime God is mentioned?[/b]

I am sure at the end of the whole procedure the goats still didn't know why you made them suffer. grin
Re: My Thoughts And Questions About Religion by joseph1013: 5:15pm On Aug 11, 2015
Mindfulness


How do you know that those who go through hard times and come off better are fewer than those who come off worse?
And who says that death is something evil and to be feared?

And then, did God force kids to become suicide bombers or humans?

As for the rest, you freedom of speech and opinion. I hold on to the freedom of no opinion, something that very few people have.


[b]Interestingly, the position you have is the one that can easily call for tripping. This is what I mean, you cheery pick the verses that appeal to you. When you are called out on others contradict your position, you switch sides by saying that you don't believe in those verses because you are not a Christian. So either way, you can always eat your cake and have it. You are neither here nor there.

Therefore if I say that the kinds of suffering I am referring to has a high rate of casualties compared to those that do survive, you simply switch sides. That's what is termed intellectual dishonesty.

I mean, you are saying how do I know folks who do not survive intense suffering do not survive, I simply refer to to the holocause. How many of them survived. I refer you to the Tsunami and ask you how many of them survive. I ask you to look up the several natural disasters in the world and ask you to name how many people were able to get back on their feet.

You ask if God force kids to become suicide bombers? And I ask you why you say God is omnipotent if he cannot stop terrorists from taking advantage of gullible kids and even forcing them against their will. But of course you will say you dont agree that God is omnipotent. Isn't it?[/b]


Does God justify anything? Does God need to justify anything?

If you say God does not need to justify anything then on what account is God just like Christians say. Of course, you dont agree with that because you are not a christian, right? You only use the Bible to support your views. grin grin grin

Who told you I believe in the devil?

Oh goodness! You dont believe in the devil yet you are using the suffering of Job to drive home a lesson. Who was the chief actor in his suffering?

Absolutely but people also do great things for religious reasons.

Same way Dangote does good for Nigeria. What you should be asking is the net positive and negative of religion. If religion is so great, why did you leave the dogma?

I don't think so. Just checked the definition in the Oxford Advanced Learner's Dictionary.
Is that your Bible, by the way?

Like I said, I have checked the definition in the dictionary and it goes as follows. Sorry, I don't remember you wrote the same.

[countable, uncountable] the various aspects of a person’s character that combine to make them different from other people

[b]Fair enough! What I do multiple times everyday is to type any word + definiton on google and most of the time it display the OXford Advanced Dictionary definition. I guess it used the Merriam-Webster Dictionary this time around.

(As an aside, it is a great thing to do to get words. Built up my vocabulary a great deal using that method)

Even with that, you can see that there is no difference in my definition and yours. Yours reads

"the various aspects of a person’s character that combine to make them different from other people"

While mine says, "the combination of characteristics or qualities that form an individual's distinctive character."

What's the difference. But you say it is not a definition.

Using your definition, God is a personality. How can you object on such an elementary definition?

And your statement about it been a Bible is a tad bit childish. Do you go to the map to look for Pakistan and after you see, someone asks you that it is not correct and asks if the map is your Bible? Doesn't make any sense. If the dictionary is where words are defined, it's illogical to dispute it.[/b]


The Bible was written by humans. There are some passages that make sense to me and many that do not but to take the Bible literally is mental bondage and very dangerous.

Then you have no business defending the Bible. If it is to cherry pick whatever appeals to you while not accepting its inerrancy, then your opinions cannot be respected because your views can still be had without having knowledge of the existence of the Bible.

I enjoy being on my own very much so I will go with it. You can argue that God is a person, you do not know, neither do I. This is where faith or no faith come into the equation. Reason is a very limited tool.

No one is saying you cannot be on your own, but do not attempt to make statements you cannot defend. If you pick verses about God from the Bible and we say the Biblical God is a person and you go ahead to say he is not a person despite Bible scholars saying so, it simply sounds silly and shows lack of thought from your own end.

God wrote the Bible?

That's the problem I will have with you not knowing anything about the Bible and trying to argue from it. If Scriptures itself says 'EVERY scripture is god breath', then I dont know what you are on about.

What researchers?

You claim that you can prove that God is a person using quotes from the Bible and I tried to show you that no of your points actually proves that God is a person. Read my last post again, please, this time with a mind more open.

Now consider this, since you are interested in Christianity and the Bible. I said right from the beginning that I like to take a broader perspective but it is ok.

Then Moses said to God, "Behold, I am going to the sons of Israel, and I will say to them, 'The God of your fathers has sent me to you.' Now they may say to me, 'What is His name?' What shall I say to them?" 14God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM"; and He said, "Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you.'"
Exodus 3:14

How do you read "I AM WHO I AM" and "I AM has sent me to you."

"Be still, and know that I am God!
Psalm 46:10

And how do you interpret this? Is it not stillness where you find God? What is stillness? The absence of noise, also mental noise in form of thoughts?

Every biblical scholar you can think about know God to be a personality. Any researcher you can think about. From Gordon Fee to Richard Bauckham to N T Wright. Every single scholar in any theological school.

Ask any Christian if he believes God is a person and tell me what you hear.

This is perhaps the silliest notion you've brought up. I AM THAT I AM itself connotes a person. There may be an underlying issue here with you here. Perhaps, you were not schooled in the English language.


You are aware that the WHOLE WORLD could be fed and everyone could be sated. You do know that there is enough food for everyone? You do know that while 800 million people suffer from hunger in one part of the world, 600 million are overweight in another?

Now the so called intelligent species, the human, is not able to solve a problem that could be solved quite easily? With all their advanced reasoning and logic? Who is imposing suffering on other humans? God?

Who created humans with all the evil tendencies? Who sits back and watches when he is said to be all powerful and all-knowing? Quit the charade!

I know that science has become like a new religion for people. Science is great but scientists have also erred and were sure that they were ABSOLUTELY right, they have also caused suffering and environmental pollution and despite all these inventions you are still able to post pictures of hungry children, like the one you posted. We are the only species that destroys themselves. We invented the atom bomb. Countries spend more money on weapons than on charity. Long live the human logic.

Here we go. Science bashers for religion. They are able to type on the internet because of science but still cast aspersion on it.

There is never a person I have heard that says science is perfect. Science is always evolving and using evidence to better our lives. We live better lives because of science. There are setbacks but we are better off today than our ancestors.

4 Likes

Re: My Thoughts And Questions About Religion by joseph1013: 5:19pm On Aug 11, 2015
Mindfulness:


I am sure at the end of the whole procedure the goats still didn't know why you made them suffer. grin


EXACTLY! You know why they dont know? Because we dont claim to be their God. We didnt create them. We didnt give them FREEWILL. We didnt claim to suffer for their redemption and we certainly didnt create Hell for them.

If we happen to be all-powerful in their realm, we would not allow them to have those diseases in the first place.

I really don't know, but this is simple enough logic.

5 Likes

Re: My Thoughts And Questions About Religion by Nobody: 6:00pm On Aug 11, 2015
joseph1013:
Mindfulness


[b]Interestingly, the position you have is the one that can easily call for tripping. This is what I mean, you cheery pick the verses that appeal to you. When you are called out on others contradict your position, you switch sides by saying that you don't believe in those verses because you are not a Christian. So either way, you can always eat your cake and have it. You are neither here nor there.

Interestingly, you have not answered any of my questions.

And yes, I do "cherry pick" the verses that appeal to me. Why not? Am I in mental bondage? Do I have to choose either or and become a fanatic or reject a religion altogether, even the parts that appeal to me, and become an atheist? I am free to pick whatever resonates with me and this is what I will just do. What is wrong with it? Is it all black OR white?

Therefore if I say that the kinds of suffering I am referring to has a high rate of casualties compared to those that do survive, you simply switch sides. That's what is termed intellectual dishonesty.

You are mixing it up now. We were talking about people who went through hardships and came off better or worse. You claimed that those who come off worse outnumber those who came off stronger and wiser. And I asked you how you knew?

I mean, you are saying how do I know folks who do not survive intense suffering do not survive, I simply refer to to the holocause. How many of them survived. I refer you to the Tsunami and ask you how many of them survive. I ask you to look up the several natural disasters in the world and ask you to name how many people were able to get back on their feet.

You tell me, you seem to have the numbers.

You ask if God force kids to become suicide bombers? And I ask you why you say God is omnipotent if he cannot stop terrorists from taking advantage of gullible kids and even forcing them against their will. But of course you will say you dont agree that God is omnipotent. Isn't it?[/b]

You have again not answered any of my questions. Before you ask me questions, answer mine please.
I can answer your question here according to my personal belief but I refuse to until you also take your time to answer my questions.


If you say God does not need to justify anything then on what account is God just like Christians say. Of course, you dont agree with that because you are not a christian, right? You only use the Bible to support your views. grin grin grin

Do Christians say that God is obliged to justify anything?
And yes, I am NOT a Christian but that does not mean that I reject everything about this religion or any other for that matter. I am not an extremist cheesy

Oh goodness! You dont believe in the devil yet you are using the suffering of Job to drive home a lesson. Who was the chief actor in his suffering?

You are unable to separate the person from the message, this is a problem undecided
What I believe is one thing, what the Bible says is another. I can only offer possible or alternative interpretations since I like playing with thoughts and different interpretations but I do not have to agree with any of them, and that is even if it is ME who offers this or that alternative view or interpretation.

I enjoy the discussion and I believe that we both can learn a thing or two from the discussion but I really need you to stop taking and making it so damn personal.

Same way Dangote does good for Nigeria. What you should be asking is the net positive and negative of religion. If religion is so great, why did you leave the dogma?

You are again misreading my comments for some reasons. Where did I say that the religion was great?
You said that people do evil things in the name of religion and I said that there are also people who do good in the name of religion. It is different from saying that the religion is great. Can you see the difference?


[b]Fair enough! What I do multiple times everyday is to type any word + definiton on google and most of the time it display the OXford Advanced Dictionary definition. I guess it used the Merriam-Webster Dictionary this time around.

Anyway.

(As an aside, it is a great thing to do to get words. Built up my vocabulary a great deal using that method)

True! And language is power! However, instead of only looking up single words in dictionaries, please read my sentences more carefully. Maybe it will reduce the number of misunderstandings.

Now can you see, how I acknowledge the value of language even though in my previous posts I pointed out how language is a limited construct that is prone to misunderstandings?

Every worldly "thing" is like a coin with two sides, a good and a bad one, at least this is what our sense of reasoning makes us to believe. The world consists of polarities, dark-bright, good-bad, friendly-rude, happy-sad, male-female, early-late, day-night and so on and so forth.

It is just a way it is. It applies to religion, a person, a job, everything.

You can complain and accuse God if you want to. I am just afraid it will lead to more suffering than necessary.

Even with that, you can see that there is no difference in my definition and yours. Yours reads
"the various aspects of a person’s character that combine to make them different from other people"

While mine says, "the combination of characteristics or qualities that form an individual's distinctive character."

What's the difference. But you say it is not a definition.

Sorry, my fault, I overlooked this part in your post. It was not my intention.

Using your definition, God is a personality. How can you object on such an elementary definition?

What are the aspects of God's character that make him / her / it different from other people?
What is God's "distinctive character"?

The definitions are based on a comparison between different people and not deities.

And your statement about it been a Bible is a tad bit childish. Do you go to the map to look for Pakistan and after you see, someone asks you that it is not correct and asks if the map is your Bible? Doesn't make any sense. If the dictionary is where words are defined, it's illogical to dispute it.[/b]

Like i said, science is the new religion. If you had been educated in the West (I assume you were not), you would have been taught to even question the Oxford Advanced Learner's dictionary. Are scientists the new Gods (rhetorical question) who never err?

Then you have no business defending the Bible. If it is to cherry pick whatever appeals to you while not accepting its inerrancy, then your opinions cannot be respected because your views can still be had without having knowledge of the existence of the Bible.

I am not defending the Bible, I am discussing it.



No one is saying you cannot be on your own, but do not attempt to make statements you cannot defend. If you pick verses about God from the Bible and we say the Biblical God is a person and you go ahead to say he is not a person despite Bible scholars saying so, it simply sounds silly and shows lack of thought from your own end.

Which scholar, Mr Science cheesy, says that God is a person?

He is possibly an old man with a long beard sitting on a throne in heaven? cheesy Sarcasm. Don't take it personal.


That's the problem I will have with you not knowing anything about the Bible and trying to argue from it. If Scriptures itself says 'EVERY scripture is god breath', then I dont know what you are on about.

The thing is that you think in either or terms. Many people contributed to writing the Bible. Some of them might have been enlightened and highly spiritual while others may not have been. It is not for you to decide which parts resonate with whom or whether someone must accept everything or reject everything altogether. The world consists of polarities and between them there are many different shades of grey.

And if you want to make the discussion more scientific then you should also mention the fact that SCHOLARS themselves acknowledge that some parts of the Bible can be (historically) proven while others are not. The existence of a God and what he looks like, dislike has never been proven by any scientist to the best of my knowledge.

Every biblical scholar you can think about know God to be a personality. Any researcher you can think about. From Gordon Fee to Richard Bauckham to N T Wright. Every single scholar in any theological school.

Quote them.

Ask any Christian if he believes God is a person and tell me what you hear.

What other people say is what I have to believe?

This is perhaps the silliest notion you've brought up. I AM THAT I AM itself connotes a person. There may be an underlying issue here with you here. Perhaps, you were not schooled in the English language.

It connotes a person? And you call my notion silly and insult me by saying that I have a linguistic problem?

Right now, there IS a plate on my desk. The plate IS.

am, are, is = be, being

How does the verb (to) be in any form connotes a person? Is the plate a person?


Who created humans with all the evil tendencies? Who sits back and watches when he is said to be all powerful and all-knowing? Quit the charade!

It is the evil, wicked psychopath who sits in heaven, according to you. cheesy

Why do you ask me? You do not accept any alternative views without going in the attack mode.



[color=#550000][b]Here we go. Science bashers for religion. They are able to type on the internet because of science but still cast aspersion on it.e]

Again Joseph, NOTHING in life is either good or bad, NOTHING, not science not religion, not even food or medicine, not even water.

Just another question, maybe you will answer this time, so because scientists developed the computer and the Internet over the years, that I use, I have no right to question them and point out that there is also a dark side to science, even though I know that what is held to be scientifically proven today, maybe considered a mistake, a fallacy tomorrow, like we have had it seen in the past? cheesy
Re: My Thoughts And Questions About Religion by rabzy: 6:04pm On Aug 11, 2015
joseph1013:

[b]
Again, apples and oranges. God is not anyone that does surveillance. God does not need to do a surveillance. He knows what Boko Haram will do next week before Shekarau was born.

I'd like to know the Church you attend because your view is not supported in the mainstream. Here are scriptural verses that refutes what you are saying:

Isaiah 46:9
I am God, and there is none like me,
declaring the end from the beginning
and from ancient times things not yet done.

Psalm 139:4
Even before a word is on my tongue,
behold, O LORD, you know it altogether.

Psalm 139:1-3
O LORD, you have searched me and you know me.
You know when I sit and when I rise; you perceive
my thoughts from afar. You discern my going out.

Psalm 139:15-16
My frame was not hidden from you when I was
made in the secret place, when I was woven
together in the depths of the earth. Your eyes
saw my unformed body; all the days ordained
for me were written in your book before one of
them came to be. How precious to me are your
thoughts, God! How vast is the sum of them!
Were I to count them, they would outnumber
the grains of sand—when I awake, I am still with you.

Job 21:22
Can anyone teach knowledge to God, since
he judges even the highest?

1 Chronicles 28:9
And you, my son Solomon, acknowledge the
God of your father, and serve him with wholehearted
devotion and with a willing mind, for the LORD
searches every heart and understands every
desire and every thought. If you seek him, he will
be found by you; but if you forsake him, he will
reject you forever.

Hebrews 4:13
Nothing in all creation is hidden from God’s sight.
Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the
eyes of him to whom we must give account.

1 John 3:20
Whenever our hearts condemn us. For God is
greater than our hearts, and he knows everything

All these do not say God CAN know everything. They all mean that God KNOWS everything. Your theology is baffling.
[/b]

Hi Joe,

As i have said what God can do does not always translate to what he decides to do or chooses to do.

Often times Bible writers talk about God's attributes in the absolute sense, i.e if God searched the heart of a man and discern his thoughts like the case of Cain, it does not mean he actively does it for everyone at all times. If God discerns the thoughts of a man today, it does not mean he would try to know what the man or all humans would do in tomorrow, next year or throughout their life.

(Genesis 6:5, 6) . . .Consequently Jehovah saw that the badness of man was abundant in the earth and every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only bad all the time. 6 And Jehovah felt regrets that he had made men in the earth, and he felt hurt at his heart.

While the Bible said the inclination of man was only bad all the time, but that is not the case as we all know. I dont think there is any man who lived throughout his life and never had a single thot that was good. That is the absoluteness i was talking about.
God searches the heart of every man to know the very depths of their motives and administer righteous Judgement, but it does not mean he peers into the future of every man to know what they would do. There would be no need for any hurt feelings.

At Genesis 11:5-8 God is described as directing his attention earthward, surveying the situation at Babel, and, at that time, determining the action to be taken to break up the unrighteous project there.

After wickedness developed at Sodom and Gomorrah, God advised Abraham of his decision to investigate (by means of his angels) to “see whether they act altogether according to the outcry over it that has come to me, and, if not, I can get to know it.” (Ge 18:20-22; 19:1).

God spoke of ‘becoming acquainted with Abraham,’ and after Abraham went to the point of attempting to sacrifice Isaac, God said, “For now I do know that you are God-fearing in that you have not withheld your son, your only one, from me.”—Ge 18:19; 22:11, 12. This indicated that he didn't peer into Abraham's future to know if he really is going to act faithfully or not.

(Nehemiah 9:7, cool 7 You are Jehovah the true God, who chose A′bram and brought him out of Ur of the Chal·de′ans and gave him the name Abraham. 8 You found his heart faithful before you, so you made a covenant with him to give him the land of the Ca′naan·ites, the Hit′tites, the Am′or·ites, the Per′iz·zites, the Jeb′u·sites, and the Gir′ga·shites, to give it to his offspring; and you kept your promises, because you are righteous.

God found his heart to be faithful and therefore made a covenant with him, he didnt know this millenniums in advance.

God’s arranging a test for adam and eve by means of “the tree of the knowledge of good and bad” and his creation of “the tree of life” in the garden of Eden also would be meaningless and a cynical act, if he knew beforehand that Adam and eve would fail the test. To offer the best conditions and a perfect life to them and their children knowing fully well that they would not be able to retain it is wicked and heartless.


Satan had a discussion with God about Job in which they disputed whether Job would be faithful or not, Satan knew God intimately and knew God does not know what course of action Job would take. That was why it was a contest and God said okay go and do your worst. All the other angels also were in attendance and everyone was patiently waiting to see the outcome. It would make no sense if all of them knew God knows beforehand the final outcome. Its like betting against someone who had already watch a match.

In a similar vein, the apostle Peter writes: “Jehovah is not slow respecting his promise [of the coming day of reckoning], as some people consider slowness, but he is patient with you because he does not desire any to be destroyed but desires all to attain to repentance.” (2Pe 3:9) If God already foreknew and foreordained millenniums in advance precisely which individuals would receive eternal salvation and which individuals would receive eternal destruction, it may well be asked how meaningful such ‘patience’ of God could be and how genuine his desire could be that ‘all attain to repentance.

God uses his ability of foreknowledge selectively. He uses it when it makes sense to do so and fits the circumstances.
Re: My Thoughts And Questions About Religion by rabzy: 6:13pm On Aug 11, 2015
joseph1013:
DO YOU KNOW?

If you were to examine the oldest known Bible to date known as the Codex Sinaiticus or the "Sinai Bible" housed in the British Museum, you would find a staggering 14,800 differences from today's Bible and yet Millions of Christians continue to quack that the modern bible still remains the perfect unchanged word of God?

Emancipate yourself from mental slavery!

A book that has been copied million of times and translated into thousands of languages is expected to have some differences. Scholars were even astounded to see how little the differences where. Most of the differences were easily correctable copyist errors that had no impact on the original message of the Bible.

I watched the intelligent design vs evolution court case and i saw the case was thrown out on the basis of a technicality. Not because intelligent design was just hogwash.
Re: My Thoughts And Questions About Religion by Nobody: 6:23pm On Aug 11, 2015
joseph1013:


EXACTLY! You know why they dont know? Because we dont claim to be their God. We didnt create them. We didnt give them FREEWILL. We didnt claim to suffer for their redemption and we certainly didnt create Hell for them.

If happen to be all-powerful in their world, we would not allow them to have those diseases in the first place.


I really don't know, [b]but this is simple enough logic
.[/b]

Logic is simple, life is not!

I am sure when you were a child, your parents made you suffer by not allowing you to do or have this or that or by even beating you up You cried, you suffered. When you grew up, you knew why your parents made decisions that were painful for you back in the day because they knew better and because it was good for you at the end. I am making this comparison because it takes your thought process and the comparison with the goats further.

We both know that some children experience serious drama when parents do not let them do or this or punish them for this or that?
Are the parents wrong? At times yes, they are human but more often than not they want the best for their children even if their kids do not understand it.

Now let ME assume God is a person, a fatherly figure.

Now see God's "decisions" from an eternal perspective.
How is a disease or hunger evil if it helps you to enter heaven and live in paradise FOREVER where there is no suffering, in other words a place that you would make the earth to be if you could?

How are 2 months, 5 years or even 20 years of suffering bad from the eternal perspective? Even 50 years are nothing as compared to ETERNITY.

Now PLEASE do NOT make the mistake to think that this alternative view is my personal conviction. It might be though, who knows? cheesy
Re: My Thoughts And Questions About Religion by joseph1013: 10:33am On Aug 12, 2015
mindfulness

I can answer your question here according to my personal belief but I refuse to.

Your flip-flopping is going nowhere and it's making the discussion redundant.

Come to the table with your hands clean. Tell us what your personal belief is and then we can engage further. Defending the Christian God when you left the Christian God for reasons you have failed to explain does not make for a freeflowing conversation.

Seems to me like you are simply arguing for argument sake.

When you are bold enough to tell us what you believe and why you believe it, you can join me at the banquet.

I thought I was going to enjoy this but I'm disappointed you are holding back from bringing a unique perspective to the table.

Until then...

1 Like

Re: My Thoughts And Questions About Religion by joseph1013: 10:51am On Aug 12, 2015
rabzy:


Hi Joe,

As i have said what God can do does not always translate to what he decides to do or chooses to do.

Often times Bible writers talk about God's attributes in the absolute sense, i.e if God searched the heart of a man and discern his thoughts like the case of Cain, it does not mean he actively does it for everyone at all times. If God discerns the thoughts of a man today, it does not mean he would try to know what the man or all humans would do in tomorrow, next year or throughout their life.

(Genesis 6:5, 6) . . .Consequently Jehovah saw that the badness of man was abundant in the earth and every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only bad all the time. 6 And Jehovah felt regrets that he had made men in the earth, and he felt hurt at his heart.

While the Bible said the inclination of man was only bad all the time, but that is not the case as we all know. I dont think there is any man who lived throughout his life and never had a single thot that was good. That is the absoluteness i was talking about.
God searches the heart of every man to know the very depths of their motives and administer righteous Judgement, but it does not mean he peers into the future of every man to know what they would do. There would be no need for any hurt feelings.

At Genesis 11:5-8 God is described as directing his attention earthward, surveying the situation at Babel, and, at that time, determining the action to be taken to break up the unrighteous project there.

After wickedness developed at Sodom and Gomorrah, God advised Abraham of his decision to investigate (by means of his angels) to “see whether they act altogether according to the outcry over it that has come to me, and, if not, I can get to know it.” (Ge 18:20-22; 19:1).

God spoke of ‘becoming acquainted with Abraham,’ and after Abraham went to the point of attempting to sacrifice Isaac, God said, “For now I do know that you are God-fearing in that you have not withheld your son, your only one, from me.”—Ge 18:19; 22:11, 12. This indicated that he didn't peer into Abraham's future to know if he really is going to act faithfully or not.

(Nehemiah 9:7, cool 7 You are Jehovah the true God, who chose A′bram and brought him out of Ur of the Chal·de′ans and gave him the name Abraham. 8 You found his heart faithful before you, so you made a covenant with him to give him the land of the Ca′naan·ites, the Hit′tites, the Am′or·ites, the Per′iz·zites, the Jeb′u·sites, and the Gir′ga·shites, to give it to his offspring; and you kept your promises, because you are righteous.

God found his heart to be faithful and therefore made a covenant with him, he didnt know this millenniums in advance.

God’s arranging a test for adam and eve by means of “the tree of the knowledge of good and bad” and his creation of “the tree of life” in the garden of Eden also would be meaningless and a cynical act, if he knew beforehand that Adam and eve would fail the test. To offer the best conditions and a perfect life to them and their children knowing fully well that they would not be able to retain it is wicked and heartless.


Satan had a discussion with God about Job in which they disputed whether Job would be faithful or not, Satan knew God intimately and knew God does not know what course of action Job would take. That was why it was a contest and God said okay go and do your worst. All the other angels also were in attendance and everyone was patiently waiting to see the outcome. It would make no sense if all of them knew God knows beforehand the final outcome. Its like betting against someone who had already watch a match.

In a similar vein, the apostle Peter writes: “Jehovah is not slow respecting his promise [of the coming day of reckoning], as some people consider slowness, but he is patient with you because he does not desire any to be destroyed but desires all to attain to repentance.” (2Pe 3:9) If God already foreknew and foreordained millenniums in advance precisely which individuals would receive eternal salvation and which individuals would receive eternal destruction, it may well be asked how meaningful such ‘patience’ of God could be and how genuine his desire could be that ‘all attain to repentance.

God uses his ability of foreknowledge selectively. He uses it when it makes sense to do so and fits the circumstances.

Buddy, are you a Jehovah's witness? I can see a pattern emerging...are you?

(Genesis 6:5, 6) . . .Consequently Jehovah saw that the badness of man was abundant in the earth and every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only bad all the time. 6 And Jehovah felt regrets that he had made men in the earth, and he felt hurt at his heart.

While the Bible said the inclination of man was only bad all the time, but that is not the case as we all know. I dont think there is any man who lived throughout his life and never had a single thot that was good. That is the absoluteness i was talking about.

Na...na...na. You are trying to rationalize Jehovah's statement. It simply means that Jehovah does not know what he is talking about. The same way he did not know what he was talking about when he said the earth was founded upon the seas. The same way he said pillars hold the earth. The same way he said vegetation came before he created sunlight.

The bible was written by medieval men who men no idea of civilization. It's not their faults they made these grave errors.


God’s arranging a test for adam and eve by means of “the tree of the knowledge of good and bad” and his creation of “the tree of life” in the garden of Eden also would be meaningless and a cynical act, if he knew beforehand that Adam and eve would fail the test. To offer the best conditions and a perfect life to them and their children knowing fully well that they would not be able to retain it is wicked and heartless.

Not true! God knew Adam and Eve will fail the test and that's why scriptures say that he had planned for Jesus to be killed before the creation of the world.

See this:

1st Peter 1:20(New Living Translation)
God chose him as your ransom long before the world began,
but he has now revealed him to you in these last days.

Revelaton 13:8 (New International Version)
All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast--all whose
names have not been written in the Lamb's book of life, the
Lamb who was slain from the creation of the world.

How about that? He knew they would sin before he created them and then had planned Jesus to die.

See, the fact that we could both dig up verses of scriptures to support different views (eventhough I have way more verses and examples than you do) indicate that the Bible is a confusing book. It is not inerrant and definitely not something people should live for.

2 Likes

Re: My Thoughts And Questions About Religion by joseph1013: 10:58am On Aug 12, 2015
rabzy:


A book that has been copied million of times and translated into thousands of languages is expected to have some differences. Scholars were even astounded to see how little the differences where. Most of the differences were easily correctable copyist errors that had no impact on the original message of the Bible.

You don't get it.The reason it has been copied millions of times is because the original manuscripts have been lost. They can't find the original copies again. So what the have are the fragments of the copies of the copies of the original manuscripts. That's why!

For such an important book, shouldn't the author that is so powerful preserve the original copies so that people don't believe different things from the same piece? Should it be such that people would not have to include their own words because some parts of the manuscripts have been torn so they just guess the words that should have completed some sentences.

There are so many words and sentences that are not found in any of the manuscripts in the Bible.


I watched the intelligent design vs evolution court case and i saw the case was thrown out on the basis of a technicality. Not because intelligent design was just hogwash.

You mean the Dover Court case? What technicality is that? Can you tell us? And what ways do you think the Intelligent design proponents ought to have won?

Which valid point did they bring to the table?
Re: My Thoughts And Questions About Religion by joseph1013: 11:12am On Aug 12, 2015
Mindfulness:


Logic is simple, life is not!

I am sure when you were a child, your parents made you suffer by not allowing you to do or have this or that or by even beating you up You cried, you suffered. When you grew up, you knew why your parents made decisions that were painful for you back in the day because they knew better and because it was good for you at the end. I am making this comparison because it takes your thought process and the comparison with the goats further.

We both know that some children experience serious drama when parents do not let them do or this or punish them for this or that?
Are the parents wrong? At times yes, they are human but more often than not they want the best for their children even if their kids do not understand it.

Now let ME assume God is a person, a fatherly figure.

Now see God's "decisions" from an eternal perspective.
How is a disease or hunger evil if it helps you to enter heaven and live in paradise FOREVER where there is no suffering, in other words a place that you would make the earth to be if you could?

How are 2 months, 5 years or even 20 years of suffering bad from the eternal perspective? Even 50 years are nothing as compared to ETERNITY.

Now PLEASE do NOT make the mistake to think that this alternative view is my personal conviction. It might be though, who knows? cheesy

The bolded reveals why I can't continue this discuss with you. Refer to my previous reply.

Come clean...let's trash it out if they are your personal beliefs. No need to fidget or be fearful.
Re: My Thoughts And Questions About Religion by joseph1013: 12:28pm On Aug 12, 2015
[b]A LIL ABOUT 'FEELINGS'...

Someone says, "Stop all this hammering about evidence. There's physical evidence and non-physical evidence. Physical evidence is easier to see, while spiritual evidence is a feeling, an inner knowing. You are just being straight-jacketed by insisting on physical evidence."

I would agree with part of that statement. There IS such a thing as NON-PHYSICAL evidence. Things like measurements between the Earth and a star, for instance, would be a form of "non-physical evidence."

But, we can't put "feelings" and "inner knowing" into that same category.

Simply put: evidence that can only be seen or felt by one person is -- by definition -- not evidence.

Evidence is objective.
Evidence is testable.
Evidence is measurable.

None of those things apply to intuition or feelings. Obviously we DO experience intuition and feelings; but they don't qualify as evidence.

In other words, if you asked a flight engineer if a new test plane was safe to fly in, would you be satisfied if he said, "Well, we don't have any evidence that it's safe. But I just have a good feeling about it"?

Would a judge be satisfied if you said, "Your honor, I don't have any proof that Jonathan stole the money....I just have a strong feeling that it was him." Would any of us really expect that judge to take action on Jonathan without evidence?

No, we wouldn't. And, it's important that we don't dilute the standards of evidence just to fit the situation.[/b]

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Re: My Thoughts And Questions About Religion by PastorAIO: 12:32pm On Aug 12, 2015
joseph1013:
A LIL ABOUT FEELINGS...

Someone says, "Stop all this hammering about evidence. There's physical evidence and non-physical evidence. Physical evidence is easier to see, while spiritual evidence is a feeling, an inner knowing. You are just being straight-jacketed by insisting on physical evidence."

But feelings are observable. through MRI scans and activity of hormones and neurochemicals in the bloodstream.
Re: My Thoughts And Questions About Religion by joseph1013: 12:37pm On Aug 12, 2015
PastorAIO:


But feelings are observable. through MRI scans and activity of hormones and neurochemicals in the bloodstream.

Very well then. It is Evidence if it is objective, testable, and measurable.

If it can only be seen or felt by one person, then by definition, it is not evidence.
Re: My Thoughts And Questions About Religion by PastorAIO: 12:59pm On Aug 12, 2015
joseph1013:


Very well then. It is Evidence if it is objective, testable, and measurable.

If it can only be seen or felt by one person, then by definition, it is not evidence.

Imagine this:

A man claims to leave his body and rise to another plane where he sees visions of heavenly beings.

During this time he is under MRI scan and indeed it is seen that there is unusual activity in his temporoparietal lobe of his brain as well as the parts of his brain responsible for REM activity and vision.

Would you consider that evidence of the things he saw?
Re: My Thoughts And Questions About Religion by Nobody: 1:06pm On Aug 12, 2015
joseph1013:


Your flip-flopping is going nowhere and it's making the discussion redundant.

Come to the table with your hands clean. Tell us what your personal belief is and then we can engage further. Defending the Christian God when you left the Christian God for reasons you have failed to explain does not make for a freeflowing conversation.

Seems to me like you are simply arguing for argument sake.

When you are bold enough to tell us what you believe and why you believe it, you can join me at the banquet.

I thought I was going to enjoy this but I'm disappointed you are holding back from bringing a unique perspective to the table.

Until then...

Like I said, I wasn't defending anything.
Re: My Thoughts And Questions About Religion by Nobody: 1:09pm On Aug 12, 2015
joseph1013:


The bolded reveals why I can't continue this discuss with you. Refer to my previous reply.

Come clean...let's trash it out if they are your personal beliefs. No need to fidget or be fearful.

My personal belief is not limited to Christianity.
Re: My Thoughts And Questions About Religion by joseph1013: 1:12pm On Aug 12, 2015
PastorAIO:


Imagine this:

A man claims to leave his body and rise to another plane where he sees visions of heavenly beings.

During this time he is under MRI scan and indeed it is seen that there is unusual activity in his temporoparietal lobe of his brain as well as the parts of his brain responsible for REM activity and vision.

Would you consider that evidence of the things he saw?

[b]It is not conclusive evidence to accept where he said he went simply because there are unusual activities in his brain. So many factors may be responsible for that.

A few things to consider:

- Is the unusual activity peculiar to him or have we had experiences of people hallucinating making such claims too?
- What led to him having such an experience?
- What do we know of people who have made such claims in the past?

The story of a boy who published a book of his experience in heaven comes to mind. The book “The Boy Who Came Back From Heaven,” by Alex Malarkey was published in 2010. It was a best seller. So many Nigerian Christians still have that book and are still awed by that experience.

Just this January, the boy recounted his story saying it contains a lot of inaccuracies. He said the assuring description of miracles, angels, and life beyond This World in the book are all false.

He said, “I did not die. I did not go to Heaven.”

It proves that claims that cannot be proven by solid evidence are potentially dangerous.

Here is the story in Washington Post: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/style-blog/wp/2015/01/15/boy-who-came-back-from-heaven-going-back-to-publisher/[/b]

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Re: My Thoughts And Questions About Religion by joseph1013: 1:15pm On Aug 12, 2015
Mindfulness:


My personal belief is not limited to Christianity.

I did not say your belief is limited to Christainity, in fact you already told us that you're not a Christain. I simply ask you what are your beliefs. What do they entail?

Do you believe in God? What God do you believe in? Why do you believe in the version of the God that you believe in?

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