euromilion:
I would've thought that sex and rituals doesn't go together as they contradict each other,even the Catholic Church understand this,that's why they must take oat of celibacy before priesthood.

Sex is considered unholy by spiritualists,except for yogis,however ejaculations are not needed.

I don't quite agree, for me sex and rituals do not contradict one another, in many cases they can be intrinsic. In any event the ritual I described was not spiritual, it was a Magickal rite with a stated desired outcome. Also there is another dimension to sexual communion when applied to other deities, in this case, an Egyptian deity. In Tantra, sex is a means of reconciling the duality, under appropriate conditions it is the Gateway to achieving a Siddhi or Enlightenment if you will.

I would not take the Catholic position on celibacy as a yardstick to prove that sex is unholy, they are simply repressed. In ancient Canaanite writings we know that the worship of Asherah, the female consort of Yahweh required huge sexual promiscuity, it was for this reason Asherah was written out of the Hebrew Bible.

euromilion:

@pastoraio

I usually don't talk to rude people,but I'll give you a benefit of doubt,one can make a point without disrespecting the other,however,Time has changed,every inventor are rewarded bountifully now.Those names you mentioned may've been poor due to time or other reasons best known to them,not because they didn't have sex with a priest or whatever.

Anyway,I don't have energy to type on forum let alone argue on the net.

I think it's best you believe what you believe,and I know what I know.

Peace.

I was rude, and I apologise. It wasn't really intentional, but my turn of phrase includes phrases such as 'what nonsense ….'. It is something that I've worked to tone down in Nairaland but it still pops up now and then. I really do apologise and while I'll try to refrain from it, knowing myself I really can't promise that it won't happen again. But I'll have you know that the intention of it is not to antagonise.

My point was that it takes more than service and invention to make money and most times it doesn't even take invention and service at all.

Just go to any financial centre in the world to get my point.

Sarassin:


I don't quite agree, for me sex and rituals do not contradict one another, in many cases they can be intrinsic. In any event the ritual I described was not spiritual, it was a Magickal rite with a stated desired outcome. Also there is another dimension to sexual communion when applied to other deities, in this case, an Egyptian deity. In Tantra, sex is a means of reconciling the duality, under appropriate conditions it is the Gateway to achieving a Siddhi or Enlightenment if you will.

I would not take the Catholic position on celibacy as a yardstick to prove that sex is unholy, they are simply repressed. In ancient Canaanite writings we know that the worship of Asherah, the female consort of Yahweh required huge sexual promiscuity, it was for this reason Asherah was written out of the Hebrew Bible.

It's interesting you mentioned some of those deities I know of some them,they re mostly Jewish,Egyptians or can I say middle easterns deities.

If I may ask,what country are you at?.
I've attended many rites in few African countries such as South Africa,Nigeria and some others,vast majority of their rites forbid sex zero percent,I don't know if you have experienced such.

I know that different deity require different sacrifice,but African deities has huge similarities,if you know what I mean.

PastorAIO:

I was rude, and I apologise. It wasn't really intentional, but my turn of phrase includes phrases such as 'what nonsense ….'. It is something that I've worked to tone down in Nairaland but it still pops up now and then. I really do apologise and while I'll try to refrain from it, knowing myself I really can't promise that it won't happen again. But I'll have you know that the intention of it is not to antagonise.
My point was that it takes more than service and invention to make money and most times it doesn't even take invention and service at all.
Just go to any financial centre in the world to get my point.

I see,but you got to understand that no man is an island,we're all learners,because someone share different view as you doesn't make your/their view any less/better.No offence taken.

Points taken though.

I work in financial centre,I do not see any sign or pointer,except that I may need 3d or 9d glasses to look for the signs next time.

@ Sarassin and euromillion are you guys for real? Rites in different countries of the world! What are you guys seeking?? Are your cults in anyway related to Ifa or is it masonry or illuminati? Are there any financial/social/political benefits? Are there special teachings for attaining power/influence/self esteem etc and any side effects/repercussions? And do you think historical figures like Abraham, King Solomon, Pythagoras, Jesus, Muhammad etc were also occult members?

euromilion:


It's interesting you mentioned some of those deities I know of some them,they re mostly Jewish,Egyptians or can I say middle easterns deities.

If I may ask,what country are you at?.
I've attended many rites in few African countries such as South Africa,Nigeria and some others,vast majority of their rites forbid sex zero percent,I don't know if you have experienced such.

I know that different deity require different sacrifice,but African deities has huge similarities,if you know what I mean.

I am in Funchal on the Island of Madeira.

Sarassin:

We are all different and the details of our struggles will differ. My mentor had taught me the Shaman method of “dreaming” and what I can only loosely refer to as working with the “double” I will share this experience.

One particular day after our exercises I had fallen asleep in one of the work-sheds, I woke up to the sounds of footsteps approaching and in order not to be found asleep at an inopportune time In the windowless shed, I got up and hid some distance away from the shed, it then occurred to me that I had left my satchel containing notes where I had previously been asleep, anyone could simply walk off with it, I looked across to the shed to where I had been sleeping a few moments ago, I nearly crapped myself with the fright of my life, there I was…fast asleep.

Gingerly, I touched my awakened self, it was me, I slapped my own face, it hurt yet I looked across and there I was totally zonked out, the people I wanted to hide from approached my sleeping self and walked right past as if I didn’t exist. At this point, I was losing my mind and began to scream, I “woke” up to find myself in the shed I had been sleeping….thankfully, it had been a dream, but then, the people I had seen approaching me in my sleep had continued on their way and I could still hear them talking. I caught up to them and asked if they had seen anyone asleep in the shed as they walked past, they could not have failed to, they said no, not a soul.

This was my very first experience in encountering my double.

Can this be called a dream?.
I leave my body most times like that while asleep, i look at my self sleeping and i see my children sleeping too, but before i step out of my room i find my self in the arena where i'm transacting.

At first i was afraid each time i leave my body, but now i'm conscious of it like normal.

Strange though, because i don't practice any religion, was raised a christian.

@Sarassin, can one be initiated into some funny things unknowingly?

How do i make this stop?.....is like i don't have control over it?.

stonemasonn:
@ Sarassin and euromillion are you guys for real? Rites in different countries of the world! What are you guys seeking?? Are your cults in anyway related to Ifa or is it masonry or illuminati? Are there any financial/social/political benefits? Are there special teachings for attaining power/influence/self esteem etc and any side effects/repercussions? And do you think historical figures like Abraham, King Solomon, Pythagoras, Jesus, Muhammad etc were also occult members?

I studied Jewish arcana in the form of Qabalah in its purest form, I devoted a substantial part of my life to learning how to develop a better awareness, perception and the manifestation of my intentions through the study of Shamanic practices. In addition, at various times I learnt different aspects of the mystery Liturgy of Hermes Trismegistus. None of these have any relations to Ifa or Illuminati (who are as extinct as the dodo) you may find extremely watered down Qabalah and Hermetic doctrine in Freemasonry, but for me, Freemasonry is more about style over substance, I practice Tantra and have been studying the Vedas in its original form in Sanskrit for over a decade.

You ask what I sought, the answer of course is Enlightenment.
You ask whether there were any financial, political or social benefits? Really I would not know, those things hold no interest to me. Once you have experienced Gnosis, your life is never really the same again.

Of course it is possible to pervert the gains of teachings for the attainment of power and glory e.t.c, if that is what is desired. But if you are fortunate enough to achieve even a “fractional” enlightenment then you will glimpse your purpose in life.

In Goetia King Solomon reputedly held the Sigils of dominion over 72 demons, but I believe you already knew this.

Pythagoras, brilliant mathematician, philosopher and dare I say, mystic, you can glimpse his work in the writings of Aristotle, Plato and Orpheus, the father of all Greek thought…including Christianity. It is from Pythagoras we are bequeathed the idea of the “triune God”

urheme:



Can this be called a dream?.
I leave my body most times like that while asleep, i look at my self sleeping and i see my children sleeping too, but before i step out of my room i find my self in the arena where i'm transacting.

At first i was afraid each time i leave my body, but now i'm conscious of it like normal.

Strange though, because i don't practice any religion, was raised a christian.

@Sarassin, can one be initiated into some funny things unknowingly?

How do i make this stop?.....is like i don't have control over it?.

No. You cannot be unknowingly initiated into anything, and yes you can indeed make it stop but before I comment fully could you possibly give a more detailed account of your experience, the more details you can provide...the better. At some point, I am going to write about my second "dreaming" experience, it may help.

stonemasonn:
@ Sarassin and euromillion are you guys for real? Rites in different countries of the world! What are you guys seeking?? Are your cults in anyway related to Ifa or is it masonry or illuminati? Are there any financial/social/political benefits? Are there special teachings for attaining power/influence/self esteem etc and any side effects/repercussions? And do you think historical figures like Abraham, King Solomon, Pythagoras, Jesus, Muhammad etc were also occult members?

Mere curiosity and pursuit of knowledge.

Yes there are some indications to suggest that some of the aforementioned names were link to masonry e.g Jesus,Abraham,Solomon.

I tried to study Ifa,but it's a bit complicated,so I gave up.

I practice Masonry.

Hope this answers yr questions.

euromilion:


I work in financial centre,I do not see any sign or pointer,except that I may need 3d or 9d glasses to look for the signs next time.

I'm sure you've heard of arbitrage.

And most recently you'd have heard of Libor rates fixing.

Glasses are not necessary. Only honesty. The arbitrager is not inventing anything or providing any service.

euromilion:


Mere curiosity and pursuit of knowledge.

Yes there are some indications to suggest that some of the aforementioned names were link to masonry e.g Jesus,Abraham,Solomon.

Are you sure of this ?

These phenomena are normal and common phenomena and it is about time we start to investigate them without the hullabaloo and mumbo jumbo of primitive religious/mystical ideas. They are all effects that can be initiated in the brain and can be switched on and off. We have to start studying these things scientifically.

Activity in one region of the brain could explain out-of-body experiences. Researchers in Switzerland have triggered the phenomenon using electrodes1.

People describe out-of-body experiences as feeling that their consciousness becomes detached from their body, often floating above it. Because these lucid states are popularly linked to the paranormal, "a lot of people are reluctant to talk about them", says neurologist Olaf Blanke of Geneva University Hospital in Switzerland.

Blanke found that electrically stimulating one brain region — the right angular gyrus — [size=14pt]repeatedly triggers out-of-body experiences[/size]. Blanke and his team were using electrodes to excite the brain of a woman being treated for epilepsy.

http://www.nature.com/news/2002/020919/full/news020916-8.html


It seems obvious to me that even what we call normality or reality is something that has just been constructed by the mind. One of the functions of the mind is to arrange experience according to a perspective. That perspective normally happens to be our body. So we experience reality happening from the point of view of where our body's are located. However that function can be disrupted and we begin to experience our environment from a perspective other than that of where our bodies are located. Finito!

If you like call it winchy or any outlandish term but at the end of the day it is just a perfectly normal explainable phenomena.

urheme:



Can this be called a dream?.
I leave my body most times like that while asleep, i look at my self sleeping and i see my children sleeping too, but before i step out of my room i find my self in the arena where i'm transacting.

At first i was afraid each time i leave my body, but now i'm conscious of it like normal.

Strange though, because i don't practice any religion, was raised a christian.

@Sarassin, can one be initiated into some funny things unknowingly?

How do i make this stop?.....is like i don't have control over it?.

Hello Sarassin,

Please what are the chances of failure, and the risks that come with failure, when one pursues mystical paths.

And, What do you think of people like Crowley, who to me is an obvious failed mystic in spite of his popularity?

How does one avoid ending up like people such as this?

Sarassin:


I studied Jewish arcana in the form of Qabalah in its purest form, I devoted a substantial part of my life to learning how to develop a better awareness, perception and the manifestation of my intentions through the study of Shamanic practices. In addition, at various times I learnt different aspects of the mystery Liturgy of Hermes Trismegistus. None of these have any relations to Ifa or Illuminati (who are as extinct as the dodo) you may find extremely watered down Qabalah and Hermetic doctrine in Freemasonry, but for me, Freemasonry is more about style over substance, I practice Tantra and have been studying the Vedas in its original form in Sanskrit for over a decade.

You ask what I sought, the answer of course is Enlightenment.
You ask whether there were any financial, political or social benefits? Really I would not know, those things hold no interest to me. Once you have experienced Gnosis, your life is never really the same again.

Of course it is possible to pervert the gains of teachings for the attainment of power and glory e.t.c, if that is what is desired. But if you are fortunate enough to achieve even a “fractional” enlightenment then you will glimpse your purpose in life.

In Goetia King Solomon reputedly held the Sigils of dominion over 72 demons, but I believe you already knew this.

Pythagoras, brilliant mathematician, philosopher and dare I say, mystic, you can glimpse his work in the writings of Aristotle, Plato and Orpheus, the father of all Greek thought…including Christianity. It is from Pythagoras we are bequeathed the idea of the “triune God”

Dear Sarassin,

Lemme go back to the other thread and read up your contributions and then come back here to comment to be sure it's really you I'm reading from.

Just a few minutes please...

Sarassin:


Are you sure of this ?

Sure of which?bold it please.

PastorAIO:

Hello Sarassin,

Please what are the chances of failure, and the risks that come with failure, when one pursues mystical paths.

And, What do you think of people like Crowley, who to me is an obvious failed mystic in spite of his popularity?

How does one avoid ending up like people such as this?

Hello PastorAIO, The chances of failure are extremely high, it is a battle between one's consciousness which represents the carnal mind and the sub-conconscious which represents the higher good. The risks that come with failure can often be devastating depending on the particular paradigm. I once toyed with the idea of participating in a particular mystical order but having studied some of the material I eventually rejected the idea however till date the Egregore of that particular order still attacks me. I studied Qabalah and when the time came, I stood on hallowed grounds to invoke the names of the most high, I could not do it and it represented an epic failure (without recourse) But then I had success with others, it is horses for causes.

In my view Crowley was a great Mystic and Occultist, he re-defined the boundaries of Hermetic Qabalah, he also came up with un-believeable "asanas" but I believe his greatest failing was that of EGO. It was his Ego that led him to give a public display of his abilities, (e.g stepping off of cliffs in the presence of nuns and the electrical demonstration e.t.c)

To become a successful Mystic, one has to conquer the carnal mind which always acts against us and avoid falling into the trap of pandering to the Ego.

euromilion:


Sure of which?bold it please.

You wrote that Abraham Solomon and Jesus were linked to Freeasonry, how ?

Sarassin:


You wrote that Abraham Solomon and Jesus were linked to Freeasonry, how ?

Yes of course.in some ancient higher degree ritual rites has it in some of the lore.

Some of these things are revealed only to selected few,(hence esoteric),however,for those that are willing to learn,there are streams of informations out there now.

I may talk a bit more on this subject when am less busy.

dazzle101:
Dear Sarassin,

Lemme go back to the other thread and read up your contributions and then come back here to comment to be sure it's really you I'm reading from.

Just a few minutes please...

As far I'm aware there's just ONE of me on these pages.

Sarassin:


In my view Crowley was a great Mystic and Occultist, he re-defined the boundaries of Hermetic Qabalah, he also came up with un-believeable "asanas" but I believe his greatest failing was that of EGO. It was his Ego that led him to give a public display of his abilities, (e.g stepping off of cliffs in the presence of nuns and the electrical demonstration e.t.c)

To become a successful Mystic, one has to conquer the carnal mind which always acts against us and avoid falling into the trap of pandering to the Ego.

How do you reconcile the two aspects of your post which I've distinguished by marking them purple and brown.

How can a great mystic have the Great failing of an EGO?

How can a 'successful Mystic' still be pandering to his ego and completely fail to conquer his carnal mind?

Crowley was a man driven by his very basest drives. They totally dominated and controlled him. He never had any control over anything he did. He was driven by his fleshly addictions. Even to the point of being a junkie. What were the results of all his money making rituals? Did he ever make any money?

It is one thing to create an effect, any effect. It is quite another thing to create the right effect.

If you're into sensationalism and have a dilettantists approach then there are many effects that you can encounter. You will see many colours and go to many places. Heck, if you allow me to whack you over the head with a cricket bat I swear you will see stars! However to equate that with great mysticism would be a grievous error.

I wonder, what was so unbelievable about the asanas that Crowley came up with?

Sarassin:


As far I'm aware there's just ONE of me on these pages.

Loool yea sure! U talked about something to do with an eidetic memory or so, was wondering how u knew about that when I read the post!!! Now I know somewhat how


Carry on!!!

PastorAIO:


How do you reconcile the two aspects of your post which I've distinguished by marking them purple and brown.

How can a great mystic have the Great failing of an EGO?

How can a 'successful Mystic' still be pandering to his ego and completely fail to conquer his carnal mind?

Crowley was a man driven by his very basest drives. They totally dominated and controlled him. He never had any control over anything he did. He was driven by his fleshly addictions. Even to the point of being a junkie. What were the results of all his money making rituals? Did he ever make any money?

It is one thing to create an effect, any effect. It is quite another thing to create the right effect.

If you're into sensationalism and have a dilettantists approach then there are many effects that you can encounter. You will see many colours and go to many places. Heck, if you allow me to whack you over the head with a cricket bat I swear you will see stars! However to equate that with great mysticism would be a grievous error.

I wonder, what was so unbelievable about the asanas that Crowley came up with?

I hold no candle for Crowley but I would separate the accomplishments from the man. No one can deny his many character failings, they ranged from extreme hostility to Christianity, misogyny, neglect of family, loss of friends through obnoxiousness, to megalomania and sado-masochistic tendencies, but we are often reminded that inspired wisdom is often socially condemned as insanity.

He was a creator of a new religious tradition whether one accepts a flawed character such as Crowley as a spiritual and mystical leader depends on one's model of spirituality. My point is a person might have attained to real mystical accomplishments yet retain base characteristics of their personality.

As a mystic I understand Crowley as a certain prophet. Selected because in spite of his human frailties he was a man of great strength, intelligence and certain discipline, an occultist of many incarnations with the potential to fit himself for a place with the Prophets and Bodhisattvas of other religions. The man was not enamoured of money, his rituals may or may not have worked, what we do know is that he worked his way through two great inherited fortunes.

You cannot understand the man unless you work within his system gaining attainment and only then can one judge Crowley, i.e from an Initiated perspective. No other perspective is equal to the task of interpreting an Adept.

euromilion:


Yes of course.in some ancient higher degree ritual rites has it in some of the lore.

Some of these things are revealed only to selected few,(hence esoteric),however,for those that are willing to learn,there are streams of informations out there now.

I may talk a bit more on this subject when am less busy.

Yes, I would love for you to expatiate your views on the subject.

Sarassin:


Yes, I would love for you to expatiate your views on the subject.

I can't discuss degree rituals rite,as it is sacred,and I take my obligations seriously,however,I'll post some pointer.

King James 1 authorised the bible version of KJV,as you can see below was a known mason,and,also king Solomon,as you can see the Solomon temple was built by Hiram Abif.

It's hard because these knowledges are not for everyone,and the few that knew are not allowed to share them,even if they do share,people will still doubt them.if you have chance search essene order.

You may want to checkout this link.
www.bibliotecapleyades.net

Sarassin:


I hold no candle for Crowley but I would separate the accomplishments from the man.

Accomplishments? pray tell. All I can know is that he climbed a few hills.

No one can deny his many character failings, they ranged from extreme hostility to Christianity, misogyny, neglect of family, loss of friends through obnoxiousness, to megalomania and sado-masochistic tendencies, but we are often reminded that inspired wisdom is often socially condemned as insanity.

I'll have to take your word for that.

He was a creator of a new religious tradition whether one accepts a flawed character such as Crowley as a spiritual and mystical leader depends on one's model of spirituality.

So is Bobby Henderson.
I take it now that for you spirituality is not an objective reality but rather different people have different models of what it is.

My point is a person might have attained to real mystical accomplishments yet retain base characteristics of their personality.

I couldn't disagree more. If your spiritual 'accomplishments' cannot be evidenced in your daily personality then you're just jiving.

As a mystic I understand Crowley as a certain prophet. Selected because in spite of his human frailties he was a man of great strength, intelligence and certain discipline, an occultist of many incarnations with the potential to fit himself for a place with the Prophets and Bodhisattvas of other religions.

I'll have to take your word for all this too. You had a mystical experience that showed you Crowley was a prophet. I see no evidence that he is. But if you say so ….

The man was not enamoured of money, his rituals may or may not have worked, what we do know is that he worked his way through two great inherited fortunes.

Yep, That great Mystical Cosmic Law remains immutable. The one about the Foo1 and his Money.

You cannot understand the man unless you work within his system gaining attainment and only then can one judge Crowley, i.e from an Initiated perspective. No other perspective is equal to the task of interpreting an Adept.

Now you sound like a deluded pentecostal claiming that you cannot understand his delusion unless you give yourself to it thoroughly.

Me I know one thing for sure in my life:

If I'm looking for Money, I can never go to a wretched pauper for advise

If I'm looking for Love, I can never go to the lonely man for advise

If I want to learn engineering, I will go to an engineer

If I want to learn medicine, I will look for a doctor

If I want to learn music, I'll seek to learn from a musician

If I want to learn Iwa Pele, I'll look for a humble man

etc etc etc, I'm sure you get my drift.

There is no way I'm going to chook my head inside a system whose founder has no qualities I admire. Furthermore a system that is widely known for it's practitioners ending up in the asylum. I even know personally of people who dabbled and they're in the nuthouse. Not to mention the more famous direct students of Crowley himself.

Crowley is nothing more than an example of the Sorcerer's apprentice. Playing with things that he doesn't understand, cannot handle, and ultimately destroys him. Like I said, it's very easy, too easy, to create an effect, any effect. Too easy to see colours, to meet beings, to visit planes etc. Anybody can pick up Sacred Magic of Abramelin the Mage and start destroying his life.

PastorAIO:


Accomplishments? pray tell. All I can know is that he climbed a few hills.

Ok, if you assert that Crowley had no accomplishments then I’ll leave it at that. As I stated earlier I hold no candle to the man.

So is Bobby Henderson.
I take it now that for you spirituality is not an objective reality but rather different people have different models of what it is.

Spirituality has to be subjective, it is hugely dependent on the individual’s perception and awareness of their own spirituality.

I couldn't disagree more. If your spiritual 'accomplishments' cannot be evidenced in your daily personality then you're just jiving.

I can provide you a list of religious founders all the way from the Prophet Muhammed to Joseph Smith and Ron L. Hubbard whose lives would not pass your morality test, the knees of whose followers continue to blister in unabated obeisance, let us not get too judgemental.

I'll have to take your word for all this too. You had a mystical experience that showed you Crowley was a prophet. I see no evidence that he is. But if you say so ….

This is not to say that I regard Crowley as a prophet in the traditional sense, or that I had some epiphany to that effect, certainly not. My overall point is that mystical, spiritual or occultic abilities often have no bearing on the personality of the subject. We should not define such abilities under a narrow religious spectrum.

Yep, That great Mystical Cosmic Law remains immutable. The one about the Foo1 and his Money.

Money was never a motivation of Crowley and few who knew of him would describe him as a foo.l.

Now you sound like a deluded pentecostal claiming that you cannot understand his delusion unless you give yourself to it thoroughly.

Me I know one thing for sure in my life.....................:

Beyond stage-managed shenaningans, Pentecostals have nothing to prove.

In my view, whatever path Crowley chose, his personality likely would have destroyed him. Without wishing to give too much oxygen to this Crowley issue because Thelema is really not my thing, It is fair enough to say the system is not for you because there is nothing for you to admire about in the founder, but as for practitioners ending up in an asylum, I think that any practitioner runs that risk in any mystical order that has Hermetic Qabalah at its roots with a sprinkling of ceremonial magic. What is more? they all seem to be doing the same thing. One thing is for sure it is not for the dilettante or the casually curious.

You say it is very easy to create effects, sounds, see colours e.t.c, I say it is not the case. Western mages talk a good game, they all have the knowledge but in my experience, very few have the ability to walk the walk, Mysticism is about "doing" hence I turned my back on the lot and looked in other directions.

Please do not take the work on that link seriously,I've just went through it,it's very inconclusive,and can't be trusted.

My apologies.

Sarassin:


Ok, if you assert that Crowley had no accomplishments then I’ll leave it at that. As I stated earlier I hold no candle to the man.

Where did I assert that Crowley had no accomplishments? You are the one that spoke of his accomplishments and I said that other than climbing a few hills I wasn't aware of any. Then I asked you what accomplishments. You haven't answered yet.

Spirituality has to be subjective, it is hugely dependent on the individual’s perception and awareness of their own spirituality.

So in context I take it that you believe Bobby Henderson's church of the Spaghetti monster to be a proper spiritual discipline validated by the subjective 'perception and awareness' of it's many adherents the world over.

I can provide you a list of religious founders all the way from the Prophet Muhammed to Joseph Smith and Ron L. Hubbard whose lives would not pass your morality test, the knees of whose followers continue to blister in unabated obeisance, let us not get too judgemental.

Would your list also include Evangelical preachers and Pentecostal con men? You seem to think that charlatans are incapable of founding religions that will have loyal followers for centuries. Or is the number of followers your criteria for whether a religious founder was a successful mystic or not?

And while we're on this subject, do you think that Casteneda's Don Juan actually existed?

This is not to say that I regard Crowley as a prophet in the traditional sense, or that I had some epiphany to that effect, certainly not. My overall point is that mystical, spiritual or occultic abilities often have no bearing on the personality of the subject. We should not define such abilities under a narrow religious spectrum.

You'd have fooled me. I thought I read you say he was a great mystic or something. If you had no such epiphany then what was that opinion based on. I suspect it is based on swallowing the hype the the publishers of his books have been dishing out for a few decades now.
I don't think I've made any judgment on Crowley's morality. I don't know where you saw that. I criticised his lack of self discipline, I criticised his addictions and the fact that he was controlled by his baser appetites.

Money was never a motivation of Crowley and few who knew of him would describe him as a foo.l.

Is that so? I wonder what William B. Yeats would answer to that. Or many others that were in the Golden Dawn.

In any case the adage stands true: A Foo1 and his money are soon parted.

Beyond stage-managed shenaningans, Pentecostals have nothing to prove.

They have lots of followers which seems to be an important criteria for you. They are also capable of creating many wonderful psychological effects which impress their congregations immensely. Never mind the fact that Derren Brown often replicates them on tv. How do you explain people falling over when the pastor waves his jacket? That isn't stage managed. When you know what buttons to push you can create many great effects.

In my view, whatever path Crowley chose, his personality likely would have destroyed him. Without wishing to give too much oxygen to this Crowley issue because Thelema is really not my thing, It is fair enough to say the system is not for you because there is nothing for you to admire about in the founder, but as for practitioners ending up in an asylum, I think that any practitioner runs that risk in any mystical order that has Hermetic Qabalah at its roots with a sprinkling of ceremonial magic. What is more? they all seem to be doing the same thing. One thing is for sure it is not for the dilettante or the casually curious.

Anybody can end up in a asylum just trying to make it through this vale of tears we call life, but when you see that there are activities that make it considerably more likely that you will go psychotic it is better to avoid that activity, wouldn't you think?

Talking of dilettante and casually curious. What happened to Crowley in Boleskine house? That was where he attempted the Magic of Abramelin to meet his HGA. Did he spend the full 6 months? Or did he flee from the house? Did he unleash forces he couldn't control and then run away apparently leaving the house haunted? Did he manage the required celibacy? The abstinence from drugs and alcohol?

You say it is very easy to create effects, sounds, see colours e.t.c, I say it is not the case. Western mages talk a good game, they all have the knowledge but in my experience, very few have the ability to walk the walk, Mysticism is about "doing" hence I turned my back on the lot and looked in other directions.

I say it is. Just give me a cricket bat and come and bring your head before me. La ila illaallah, you will see flashing lights!!
Ask anybody that has taken lsd or smoked igbo how easy it is to hallucinate.

euromilion:
Please do not take the work on that link seriously,I've just went through it,it's very inconclusive,and can't be trusted.

My apologies.

Thanks for the square and compass. From what I can glean from the documents it is not clear to me that King James I was actually a Freemason, it seems to indicate he was an enthusiast, as Monarch it is unlikely, he could of course have been a patron but this is conjecture on my part.

I don’t see the link to King Solomon being a Mason, I may be wrong but there seems to be some conflation of the gifted stonemasons who were contracted to rebuild the Jerusalem temple with the trade guilds that eventually coalesced to form the Freemasonry guild in the 17th century.

I take your point on the link. Thanks

As for king James,he's a known fact,even the lodge records has it,and for the others names only the people that has gone through the degrees knew the lore,I'll try to get back to this subject soon.

Let me not derail yr thread.

dazzle101:
Dear Sarassin,

Lemme go back to the other thread and read up your contributions and then come back here to comment to be sure it's really you I'm reading from.

Just a few minutes please...

Yes dear, he is the one. He tried introducing this stuff over there, but found out he was in a wrong terrain, that's why he opened this one for his kind.
Satan's chances are running out very fast, so He has to work very hard. Soon, very soon...

PastorAIO:


Where did I assert that Crowley had no accomplishments? You are the one that spoke of his accomplishments and I said that other than climbing a few hills I wasn't aware of any. Then I asked you what accomplishments. You haven't answered yet.

You should read some of his works, in particular Liber LXXXIV Vel Chanokh as well as Crowley’s treatise on his work with “Aethyrs” Liber 418 (The vision and Voice)

Would your list also include Evangelical preachers and Pentecostal con men? You seem to think that charlatans are incapable of founding religions that will have loyal followers for centuries. Or is the number of followers your criteria for whether a religious founder was a successful mystic or not?

And while we're on this subject, do you think that Casteneda's Don Juan actually existed?

My point exactly, it takes all sorts. Moral rectitude has never been a pre-requisite to forming a religious or mystical order. The number of followers of a religious order is of no consequence to me, I do not practice any religion.

You'd have fooled me. I thought I read you say he was a great mystic or something. If you had no such epiphany then what was that opinion based on. I suspect it is based on swallowing the hype the the publishers of his books have been dishing out for a few decades now.
I don't think I've made any judgment on Crowley's morality. I don't know where you saw that. I criticised his lack of self discipline, I criticised his addictions and the fact that he was controlled by his baser appetites.

Yes, I did state that I consider Crowley a great occultist and mystic, that is my opinion and it is based on his work not on hype. In my view when you criticize a man for his lack of self-discipline, addictions and what have you, then it is a moral judgement.

They have lots of followers which seems to be an important criteria for you. They are also capable of creating many wonderful psychological effects which impress their congregations immensely. Never mind the fact that Derren Brown often replicates them on tv. How do you explain people falling over when the pastor waves his jacket? That isn't stage managed. When you know what buttons to push you can create many great effects.

I am not sure where you have gotten the idea that great followership is of importance to me. I saw the program Derren Brown replicated the dodgy miracles perpetrated by evangelical con-men, it merely vindicated what I already knew. I am also familiar with the techniques of auto-suggestion and mesmerism, Benny Hinn jackets and all.

Anybody can end up in a asylum just trying to make it through this vale of tears we call life, but when you see that there are activities that make it considerably more likely that you will go psychotic it is better to avoid that activity, wouldn't you think?

Talking of dilettante and casually curious. What happened to Crowley in Boleskine house? That was where he attempted the Magic of Abramelin to meet his HGA. Did he spend the full 6 months? Or did he flee from the house? Did he unleash forces he couldn't control and then run away apparently leaving the house haunted? Did he manage the required celibacy? The abstinence from drugs and alcohol?

As for Crowley in Boleskin Hse, I read that he abandoned the process less than half-way through after getting called away and neglected to carry out banishing rites leading to all sorts of manifestations. More likely he lacked the self-discipline to complete the process. The singer Jimmy Page has since stated that Boleskin Hse was renowned for being haunted even before Crowley purchased the property. Crowley would not be the first or the last to attempt the Abramelin Rites and fail. More than anything else I believe he wanted to validate the grimoire.

I say it is. Just give me a cricket bat and come and bring your head before me. La ila illaallah, you will see flashing lights!!
Ask anybody that has taken lsd or smoked igbo how easy it is to hallucinate.

You do not rate Crowley, I get it. Your opinions of his abilities seem to me to be formed by the larger than life personality of the man.

I think the vast majority are familiar with perhaps just one aspect of Crowley’s work and that is mostly his work on invocations/evocations of entities and his incorporation of Goetia into Thelema, this is the part that mostly concerns the dilettante who will then fancy their abilities in their quest for wealth, fame and whatnot to conjure a demon, a spirit or entity to do their bidding.

Crowley himself once stated that Magical Invocations/Evocations were a form of psychological self-exploration, Carl Jung had similar views. I have no idea what level practitioner you are or if indeed you are a practitioner at all, but given that we know any invocation or evocation inevitably means that the summoned entity will take possession of the practitioner, do you then wonder why absolute idi.ots lacking basic precautions and lacking the psychic strength to withstand the inundation of force that will accompany a possession….lose their minds?

Whether it is Crowley’s system or not Hermetic Qabalah, or to call a spade a spade, Ceremonial magic is not a business for shrinking violets or those of the disposition of wallpaper flower, one requires a huge Ego, a brass neck and supreme confidence in one’s own abilities to command one’s space and summon, conjure and instruct an entity. Mis-application of ritual, ego-driven non-observance of simple precautionary measures and a lack of diligence often leads to devastating and un-intended consequences. You are either all in or all out, and if you get it wrong no cricket bats or Philly blunt will save you. If it is too much then it is perhaps best you stick to “iwa pele”