In other words are these 'works if the law' essentials parts of the Faith without which there is no faith.

PastorAIO:


As indeed Abraham attempted to sacrifice his son as a demonstration of his faith, a demonstration without which the faith is dead...
Can we also say that the act of circumcision is a demonstration of Faith, a act without which we know that the Faith is dead?

circumcision fall among the category of ceremonial law.........the error Paul correct is that salvation is by the working of the law.........the error James correct, work is unnecessary after a person is save.James wrote how a believer can show his faith ( (justification or vindication before men) so circumcision is NOT the means of salvation, is the evidence of faith ( the necessity of the believer to show that his faith is real, not a dead faith.

PastorAIO:
In other words are these 'works if the law' essentials parts of the Faith without which there is no faith.

the key word here is " work" what is your understanding of work ? is it " work is the means of Salvation" or " the evidence of Faith"
if its the means of salvation, the answer to your question is no. but if its the evidence of faith, your answer is yes.

malvisguy212:
circumcision fall among the category of ceremonial law.........the error Paul correct is that salvation is by the working of the law.........the error James correct, work is unnecessary after a person is save.James wrote how a believer can show his faith ( (justification or vindication before men) so circumcision is NOT the means of salvation, is the evidence of faith ( the necessity of the believer to show that his faith is real, not a dead faith.

So in your understanding which men were Abraham attempting to demonstrate his faith to when he attempted to slaughtering Isaac?

You seem to think works of faith are just for impressing other people, or to vindicate yourself before them.

James' letter suggests to me that the works are a necessary expression of the faith.

That's like saying that a necessary property of triangles is to have a sum of angles equal to 180 degrees. If you hear of a geometric structure whose angles don't add up to 180 degrees then you'll know for sure that it can't be a triangle.

The essence and the expression are inseparable.

Furthermore circumcision was established with Abraham long before mosaic law was established.

malvisguy212:
the key word here is " work" what is your understanding of work ? is it " work is the means of Salvation" or " the evidence of Faith"
if its the means of salvation, the answer to your question is no. but if its the evidence of faith, your answer is yes.

It is the evidence of faith.

Furthermore it is a Necessary evidence of faith.

PastorAIO:


So in your understanding which men were Abraham attempting to demonstrate his faith to when he attempted to slaughtering Isaac?

You seem to think works of faith are just for impressing other people, or to vindicate yourself before them.

James' letter suggests to me that the works are a necessary expression of the faith.

That's like saying that a necessary property of triangles is to have a sum of angles equal to 180 degrees. If you hear of a geometric structure whose angles don't add up to 180 degrees then you'll know for sure that it can't be a triangle.

The essence and the expression are inseparable.

Furthermore circumcision was established with Abraham long before mosaic law was established.

Abraham had no one to prove his Faith is real. but when James use Abraham as an example of a saving Faith, the audience in James 2 and the readers understand his point........I cannot draw a 3HD drawing on a 2HD screem.

PastorAIO:


It is the evidence of faith.

Furthermore it is a Necessary evidence of faith.

yes, my faith is not the result of my good work, it is the result of " work" accomplished by someone.

In Romans 4:5 we have a description of the person who is justified freely by God’s grace: "But to him that worketh not , but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness."

Notice that he is the person THAT DOES NOT WORK! He does not work at all! He is not trusting or counting on anything that he has done. alright, if he does not work, what then does he do ? he BELIEVED. he believe on God who is justified FREELY by His Grace. "who does not work but believe" this tell us that Faith is NOTa work. Rather, faith is resting upon the work of Another. Faith is resting all of one’s weight on the WORTH (the Person, who He is ), on the WORK (what He has done) and on the WORD (what He has said) of Jesus Christ. Faith is non-meritorious.

malvisguy212:
Abraham had no one to prove his Faith is real. but when James use Abraham as an example of a saving Faith, the audience in James 2 and the readers understand his point........I cannot draw a 3HD drawing on a 2HD screem.

You are the one that said the sole purpose of works is to impress and vindicate yourself before other men.

I'm trying to show that this cannot be true as there was no one present when Abraham attempted to slaughter Isaac.

Abraham didn't do it to impress anyone but it was an act that flowed necessarily out of his Faith.

I repeat, works flow out necessarily and subsequently to True Faith.

malvisguy212:
yes, my faith is not the result of my good work, it is the result of " work" accomplished by someone.

I didn't say faith is a result of good work.ler me repeat what I said:

I said that works are a necessary expression of true faith without which you know that True Faith doesn't exist.
No smoke, no damp fire .
No works, no Faith.

Smoke doesn't cause fire but smoke is a sure sign of fire.

PastorAIO:


You are the one that said the sole purpose of works is to impress and vindicate yourself before other men.

I'm trying to show that this cannot be true as there was no one present when Abraham attempted to slaughter Isaac.

Abraham didn't do it to impress anyone but it was an act that flowed necessarily out of his Faith.

I repeat, works flow out necessarily and subsequently to True Faith.

Abraham’s life was chosen as an example because it wonderfully illustrates what kind of faith-evidencing works James had in mind. Works in James are the outworking of faith; apart from a living faith, they would be dead works. Abraham’s work of faith was seen not only in his obedience to God’s command, but especially in the fact that he believed that God would raise up his son (Genesis 22:5) God had promise that isaac would have children, Abraham believe God even though God told him to kill Isaac, ( how can a dead son bear children ?) Abraham believe God will raised him back to life. Abraham Faith manifest itself when he offer Isaac.

PastorAIO:



I didn't say faith is a result of good work.ler me repeat what I said:

I said that works are a necessary expression of true faith without which you know that True Faith doesn't exist.
No smoke, no damp fire .
No works, no Faith.

Smoke doesn't cause fire but smoke is a sure sign of fire.

yes, you are correct, however, work in this context does not mean you are working your way to salvation.

Wilgrea7:

the early apostles had some differing views.. not all accepted Paul's doctrine.. there were different denominations of Judaism plus other religions... people who converted had a little bit of that knowledge transferred... but there was somewhat friction betweeen the apostles and paul.. as well as some other unnamed people

2. Which misconception did pastor Aio clear, I cant find it.

his comment is on this thread.. somewhere close to my first comment

3. The bible says the apostles are the foundation on which the Church is built and Jesus is the chief conner stone. If you disagree go and argue with eph 2:20, not with me. Sorry.

the “bible" does not say.. the writers are the ones that say.. the writers may be lying or telling the truth.. but then.. that is an argument for another day

1. The friction between Paul and others was cleared up in Acts 15.

2. I read the comments by Aio and it has little to do with the issues i raised.


3. You can tell a Protestant that "the bible does not say..." i am a Catholic, Church father compiled the scriptures and councils set down the books as a unified whole in teaching the oracles of God. So that each book is inspired and not just the opinion of its writer.. As such i boldly declare the bible say....

Ubenedictus:



1. The friction between Paul and others was cleared up in Acts 15.

2. I read the comments by Aio and it has little to do with the issues i raised.


3. You can tell a Protestant that "the bible does not say..." i am a Catholic, Church father compiled the scriptures and councils set down the books as a unified whole in teaching the oracles of God. So that each book is inspired and not just the opinion of its writer.. As such i boldly declare the bible say....

i concede for now.. because i don't know much on the subject.. although i feel there was a variation.. i will speak when i know more

donteanz:
■ Over the years, i've heard the teachings of the bible on how Jesus had taught us on how to live a life that is pleasing unto God. Subsequent studying of the bible had lead me to uncover many things that has been disregarded.
The teachings of apostle Paul were different from that of the messiah and even contradicted some of the teachings and law of prophet Moses. And Jesus during his life time said, "for i have not come to change but to fulfil the law" of Moses. I would be glad if anyone could help shed more light to this.

1. Jesus Christ's teachings and commandments are the foundation upon which all of His followers, including Paul, are expected to abide by. Jesus Christ said, "If you abide in me, I will abide in you". Jesus Christ is the embodiment of God's Truth and Constitutional Law in the Kingdom of God, and those who abide by the teachings and commandments of the Law, He, Jesus Christ, will abide in.