@wellborn

thank u bro, eh, since everyday originated from some God worship, as from tomorrow, everybody goes on a Holiday!
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and to all those who want to "authenticate everything in and out of the Bible" before you believe in Jesus, I would like to ask you how many things(not even faith/religion related) have you authenticated. Let me roll out some examples:
- Your Birth certificate, have you authenticated it?
- all the "Jargons" that lecturers spoke about from primary school to Univ level, how many of us left school because we authenticated something that Einstein did not authenticate. Have you just been taking things for granted?
- doctors say an average adult has about 206 bones in his/her body. Pls can you count all the bones in your body and see if they measure up or perhaps you got some extras? You could be the next superman, you never know,

pls post your results on NL, for the benefit of us all.

let God be true, but every man a liar

@zahymaka, you've asked a very legitimate question in one of your sequel posts, and I'd like to present you with a few considerations. Please pardon the many questions in my rejoinder as a way to make you do some thinking privately. You asked a question like:

zahymaka:
What I want to know is why the people who chose the books decided that some were biblical and others weren't. I really feel they shoul dall be joined together. This Gospel of Judas however, seems to be from somewhere else. I doubt it's authenticity.

Why Should Only Some Books Be Canonized?

Here again, I'd like to make some sense in what you might be appealing for. I do not know what criteria were adopted for choosing the synoptic Gospels and John's as inspired in preference over the gnostic gospels. In an earlier post, I tried to show that God could have used anybody to bring these books together, and whether or not they were common thieves or political criminals is not the huge deal; it's not who put the NT together but what the Bible teaches that matters the most to me. However, I do believe in my heart that the NT books make more sense than the gnostic documents, for the following reasons:

(1) Scripture is Divinely Inspired (II Tim. 3:16-17 and II Pet. 1:20-21)
The claim of the Bible to divine inspiration is something that is conspicuously lacking in the gnostic documents. Don't get me wrong: some of the gnostic gospels also claim to have been "inspired" (more 'mystic' actually); but then, when you ask certain questions, you're more likely to meet a blank wall than get answers. There's not a single pointer to authentic prophecy (past, present or future) in any of the 29 gnostic artifacts that I've read (bar the Gospel of Judas, until it's published and marketed). There's not a coherent teaching on salvation, the ministry of the Holy Spirit, the nature of heaven, hell, or fellowship among Christians. You will not find any real connection between the OT and the gnostics, and the few that make a hint of it make it sound like they've been quoting another book rather than the OT. I do not need at this point to swell this page with discussions on the inspiration of the Bible as the Word of God (maybe sometime in another thread, it'd be a welcome delight to do so). I just leave you to ask yourself this question: in view of the matters mentioned above, what concrete evidence do you proffer for the divine inspiration of the gnostic documents?

(2) Scripture Speaks to the Heart (Heb.4:12)
How is it that when you read the gnostic documents, you very rarely get the impression that you're being challenged as when you read the Bible? Even as a Christian, do you find divine promises in the gnostics as are recorded in the Bible? Do you feel the power of the Holy Spirit challenging you to joyful obedience, integrity and commitment when you study the gnostics? So many questions, but the point is made: gnosticism does not divinely challenge your life as does the Bible. "For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart." [Heb 4:12]

(3) Are the Gnostic Documents Consistent?
Put all gnostic materials you can find (there are actually more than 29 of them) and ask yourself if they speak the same thing? At least, you have noticed that "the gospel of Barnabas. . .differs grossly from the accounts of the other gospels" (your earlier quote). Not only so, but all the others differ grossly from one another. When you read several of them, it often has to do with "the secret sayings of Jesus" (e.g., the Gospel of Thomas, and now as purported in the Gospel of Judas). You already know what you were asking for by suggesting that "they should all be joined together" - if that ever were to happen, what would be your answer to those who'd ask you why the Bible would be full of "inconsistency" by that time?

(4) Do The Researchers Themselves Have Faith in Their Discoveries?
Watch this: you'll always find that the 'researchers' and 'scholars' who are vendors of these new 'truths' do not ever believe or practise them. This is actually classic with such groups as the Jesus Seminar, who after ten years of debating the "authentic Jesus of history", still do not believe in Him - and yet, they will try to persuade you into believing or having faith in their research.

You may have noticed that 'researchers' and 'scholars' who believe that the canonized NT is a political cover-up and hoax cannot defend the contrarian views of the gnostic documents they banter about as "inspired truth". What sets the Bible apart from all these other documents is its claim to divine inspiration, and that is precisely what these documents are lacking. Earlier, I pointed out that as an example, the Gospel of Thomas pretends to have been written by a "Didymos Judas Thomas" - and I'm amazed that even secular scholars themselves know for a fact that its authorship is spurious, or anonymous at best. The same thing applies to the gospels of Philip, Mary Magdalene, Barnabas, Peter, and several others. . . "no one knows who wrote these documents" is often what researchers will tell you.

Now, the question is, why would anyone want to write a document purporting to be the 'buried truth' of the real story of Christianity and yet subscript them with fictitious names? It's just like writing a document and subscripting it with the name "Zahymaka Kimba Welborn" - sounds authentic, huh?    There was no one called "Didymos Judas Thomas" among the early disciples, and the gospel of Barnabas has not been much debated because anyone would see at once that its author was neither Barnabas nor a true Christian. I wonder, though, why you doubted the authenticty of the authorship of the Gospel of Judas. Good point you made, nonetheless.

It is interesting to note that the Jesus Seminar group has produced a "Scholar's Version" Translation of the New Testament (SV for short). With all their scholarship of over a decade, would you be any surprised that most of them have a less than average commitment to the version of the 'Jesus' they recommend to you? I'll just close with a verse in their own translation:

        "You scholars and Pharisees, you impostors! Damn you! You slam the door of Heaven's domain
         in people's faces. You yourselves don't enter, and you block the way of those trying to enter."
         -- Matt 23:13.

May God have mercy on such 'scholars' who spend sleepless night trying to shut heaven's domain in people's faces - don't let it happen to you.


With kind thoughts and warmest regards.

kimba:

@wellborn

thank u bro, eh, since everyday originated from some God worship, as from tomorrow, everybody goes on a Holiday!
-----------------------------------

Phew! Thanks bro - even if that wasn't official, I'm on holiday all the same

whats this judas story all about

i thought Kimba's reply was fantastic and i decided jagunlabi and co should read it again


WHAT ELSE WONT THEY SAY

Let the scoffers say what they want. They are nothing but a bunch of scoffers.

@jagunlabi
You make me laugh, o boy. You started the thread with a news article from msnbc.msn.com. Then you go on and say:

Quote
The real joke probably is that christians have been decieved all along,for millenia long.It is now that the truths are beginning to surface.

You know what: man reveals who he is through his words. I guess you must have been looking for these kind of Christianity-condemning-pro-antichrist topics on the web. The Bible even said in the Last days, Anti-Christs will arise. Even if you found it by mistake, at least something must have been leading you there. It would have been better if you took time to read previous posts on Nairaland about religious related topics, what people said, their opinions etc. You didnt actually need the msnbc comment to start trash-talking.

Mr. Jagunlabi
(1) Not everything that you see on the internet is 100% truth, allright? Learn to see beyond the news, see those writing it, see the financiers. I believe you wont be interested to see beyond the news, doing your own research as you are a ready proponent of such a wrong religious view.

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I know some of those already.I know even some that will knock you off your feet.

Example: while some people are suing tobacco companies because cigarette gave them a cencer gift, some others are advertising it on TV, with a tender voiced warning, smoking is dangerous to your health, consult your doctor. Tell me that those people behind the tobacco industry don't know that cigarette is bad for health on a long run? tell me they don't know the difference between black and white. But hey, its what they are paid to do, right.

But, no shaking, i stand with @nightrider:

Quote
You'd have to knock Jesus of the cross and knock him back into the grave to knock me of my feet. The world can spin all the stories it wants. I'm standing on the rock.

I'm rather dissappionted with the stories, i expected the deception to be a bit stronger.
Satan can't even try it, not to talk of a mortal human like jagunlabi.

The truth is that the story on your msn weblink is quite LAME!!! Let me add salt and pepper: The truth is that there is someone that has to get a PhD in religion somewhere, and he/she has to cook up some news to shake the world. Thats ingenuity on its own. At least the major and ingenuous idea associated with Nigeria is 419, and we have received world-recognition for that. So, definitely, someone has to get into the lime-light by discovering the "gospel of Judas".

And is it not so stupid, whoever is behind the discovery left the whole Old Testament, passed by the New Testament, passed by the Gospels, threw away all that Paul wrote, totally forgot the Revelation, picked out the disciples one by one and landed on Judas - saw his faithfulness, and his sincerity in following the Lord, and in Jesus' interest in Him to become the Betrayer.

----------------------
this is a small digression from the topic, but its worth reading:
You might have come across the Satanic Bible. If you don't know, now you do. There is a Satanic Bible, that some people in America and Europe read. They gather together (like Christians do) for "Satanic Worship". They sing and clap in "Satanic Praise". They even Preach their own "Satanic messages" and go our for evangelism - soul winning. Now, wont you be scared if someone came to you preaching Satan.? The info I have says their leader is the son of a Baptist pastor, and that some of his key leaders went to Bible school, Seminary, to study the Bible. Guess what thesis they came out with: The gospels according to Satan.

While a student in Univ, in the Library, i came across this nice looking hard covered Bible, and the cover just caught me off my feet. Lo and behold, twas a picture of Jesus with a ponytail, with earings and lipstick. I was like wow. I spent the next 5-hours reading to my dismay, what people would do for research in this world of ours. Just some intro: In Genesis, God is referred to as (she), and God created Eva. Eva named all the animals, asked God for a help meet, God made Eva to sleep, took out of her(Evas) ribs and created Adam. Eva sees Adam, and says, this is the bone of my bone, Eva is potrayed as the head of the family, because she received instructions from God and tells Adam what to do. In fact, twas Adam that got deceived by satan and now called his wife to eat the fruit. Their kids, Cain and Abel were the first 2-girls in the garden and Seth was the first boy, now should i continue?

Jesus in the new testament was a lady, i forgot what they said about mary and joseph, anyway, she(Jesus) had 12 lady disciples. Now imagine someone sitting down and from Genesis to Revelation wrote all such crap. I turned to the back to see the author, and twas a lady, who got a PhD in divinity(i think) with a major in God and woman relationship. Part of the info is that she goes around the world holding seminars and proposing her faith that the Bible is from a (she) perspective.

Ill look for her website and post it.
------------------------------------

back to the topic
The question is: Wasnt it prophesized in the Old Testament that the Son of God will be betrayed and woe betides whoever will betray the Lord?

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12186080/

Quote
The newly translated document’s text begins: “The secret account of the revelation that Jesus spoke in conversation with Judas Iscariot.”

In a key passage Jesus tells Judas, “You will exceed all of them. For you will sacrifice the man that clothes me.” This indicates that Judas would help liberate the spiritual self by helping Jesus get rid of his physical flesh, scholars said.

“Step away from the others and I shall tell you the mysteries of the kingdom,” Jesus says to Judas, singling him out for special status. “Look, you have been told everything. Lift up your eyes and look at the cloud and the light within it and the stars surrounding it. The star that leads the way is your star.”


And to whoever believes in the above should please explain these verses from the Bible:


Quote
Luk 6:16 And Judas [the brother] of James, and Judas Iscariot, which also was the traitor.
Luk 22:3 Then entered Satan into Judas surnamed Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve.
Luk 22:47 And while he yet spake, behold a multitude, and he that was called Judas, one of the twelve, went before them, and drew near unto Jesus to kiss him.
Luk 22:48 But Jesus said unto him, Judas, betrayest thou the Son of man with a kiss?


If Judas did not betray Jesus, how did Satan come into the picture.
Do you mean Jesus, Judas and Satan planned together to hatch the plot?


Quote
Jhn 6:70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?
Jhn 6:71 He spake of Judas Iscariot [the son] of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.
Jhn 13:1 Now before the feast of the passover, when Jesus knew that his hour was come that he should depart out of this world unto the Father, having loved his own which were in the world, he loved them unto the end.
Jhn 13:2 And supper being ended, the devil having now put into the heart of Judas Iscariot, Simon's [son], to betray him;



Quote
Jhn 12:1 Then Jesus six days before the passover came to Bethany, where Lazarus was which had been dead, whom he raised from the dead.
Jhn 12:2 There they made him a supper; and Martha served: but Lazarus was one of them that sat at the table with him.
Jhn 12:3 Then took Mary a pound of ointment of spikenard, very costly, and anointed the feet of Jesus, and wiped his feet with her hair: and the house was filled with the odour of the ointment.
Jhn 12:4 Then saith one of his disciples, Judas Iscariot, Simon's [son], which should betray him,
Jhn 12:5 Why was not this ointment sold for three hundred pence, and given to the poor?
Jhn 12:6 This he said, not that he cared for the poor; but because he was a thief, and had the bag, and bare what was put therein.


Why should Jesus, the emblem of Love Himself call Judas(the Bible calls him a thief, someone that has no love anywhere in his heart) aside, give Him a vision and mission that He(Jesus) could not give to any member of His inner circle members(Peter, James and John), just so that woe will fall upon his (Judas) head, and for Him to fulfill the scriptures? What qualified Judas to "receive the mysteries of the Kingdom" that Peter could not receive? What made Judas so special?

And what agreement has Jesus with a thief

For such a mission as the one described on the weblink you provided(http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12186080/), i believe, Jesus should have chosen the best of His crew. At least, thank God, they(scholars) didnt say that Judas was forced to betray Jesus, meaning he betrayed Jesus on his own free-will.

And if Jesus and Judas planned it, why did Judas hang himself afterwards?

Quote
Mat 27:3 Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders,
Mat 27:4 Saying, I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood. And they said, What [is that] to us? see thou [to that].
Mat 27:5 And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself.
Mat 27:6 And the chief priests took the silver pieces, and said, It is not lawful for to put them into the treasury, because it is the price of blood.
Mat 27:7 And they took counsel, and bought with them the potter's field, to bury strangers in.
Mat 27:8 Wherefore that field was called, The field of blood, unto this day.
Mat 27:9 Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremy the prophet, saying, And they took the thirty pieces of silver, the price of him that was valued, whom they of the children of Israel did value;
Mat 27:10 And gave them for the potter's field, as the Lord appointed me.


I believe if what Judas did was a "Jesus sanctioned assignment" Judas should not have said what he had said in Mat 27:4(Judas admitted guilt), isnt it. or is the part of Judas hanging himself part of the plan also? Is there any mystery of the Kingdom in the Bible that tells anyman to go and kill himself. Of what good would the death of Judas and the death of Jesus do to Christianity. Did Judas have to die? did he receive any reward for it? The Bible said someone was going to betray the son of God, but no names were mentioned. If Jesus had to go and personally commission Judas for the job, why wasnt Judas specifically mentioned anywhere. He gave his heart over to the devil.

Then Mr Jagunlabi, you should ask yourself where and when did Jesus take Judas apart for this special revelation? was there any writer in the Bible, any theologian, any historian in past or recent times that ever talked/suggested anything about the "closeness of Jesus and Judas"? How come he got a gospel to preach. So where did this new relationship between Judas and Jesus start from? Its only the author that knows, and unfortunately, he's not around now to back-up His script.

But you know the best part: God has been backing up His Word since Genesis, Jesus has been backing up His promises, the Holy-Spirit has been backing up the Believers. So theres no need to fall-prey to history that has no back-up.

@obong

Quote
its just an old cult, why is everyone so fascinated with tis xtianity stuff. its clear someone a long time ago decided what story would be told and what would not be, and today the same group is doing it again,. by diggin up old caves to find scrolls that were supposedly lost, just to further generate interest in this cult

Christianity is a way of Life. Christianity is not a cult. By the way, Obong, what do you believe in. Scientists tell us that man mortal man cannot claim to exist without a belief. So Obong, which cult are you in?

@slac

Quote
There are dark secrets hidden in christianity and i know the worst is yet to come.
As for me i don't believe in all that church stuff.

Believe in Jesus first, He'll explain all you need to know to you.

@jagunlabi

Quote
Who are we africans to debate what is true and what is false within a foreign,or to be more precise,european liturgy?Have we ever really,trully as black africans,studied the true history of this religion that we have so foolishly adopted as ours?Do we really know how it was formed?What dark,sinister secrets have been hidden from the rest of the world,including us, for thousands of years about this cult called christianity?Blind followership won't get us to paradise,as a lot of you guys have been decieved by indoctrinated brainwashing.
You all think that you know the true Jesus?How mistaken you all are!What you have today is a fake,corrupted,paganised Jesus,that is far far far removed from that Jesus, the jewish rabbi that walked the grounds of Palestine!Make una dey dia dey play ignoramus,and let yourself be decieved in this day and age of enlightenment!
Una never see anything yet,there are more stinko secrets to surface.So make una dress warm


Fine, Jagunlabi, we Africans are not in a position to verify debate anything, neither do we have the brainpower or resource to verify anything. Ok, so what? have you, on your own personal effort or anyone in nairaland ever spent 12 consecutive months verifying the identity of your own parents. who told you that what they looked at when you finally learnt to add 1+1 was what they looked at when you were born? what scientific steps have you taken to verify your own personal birth-certificate? is it really genuine? you should have had someone extra-ordinary to stand beside your mother to verify that you were the one that really popped out from her belly and you were not mis-placed or mis-appropriated in the Hospital to the wrong parent. All the scientific or art knowledge you know today, how many have you personally verified. How many of us here have actually disagreed with out math teacher when we found out that 1+1 wasnt equal to 2. And did you disagree with anyone when you left primary school that you wanted to change your name because you just found out that was not your original name? and then you went to high-school and university and believed all the science and art bull-rubbish that all the professors told you? and for those of us who graduated at the top of our class, did we get an award for believing a whole lot of errors/unverified theories we were told about, and which we had to "understand", memorize and recollect during exams for 4 or 5 long years, or was the award because we found out a whole lots of truths/course we took in college that our professors did not find out in their time as students, and for which they recognized that Yes, we were smart? please tell me,

and for those who don't believe in Jesus, when did that start? when you were one year old? of when you were 6 or 7 and reasoning began descending on you?

whatever you believe in today: is it a personal revelation/effort on your part. Let the Catholics tell me they had a personal revelation and their belief is different from others, let the Muslims tell me that there was a supernatural revelation before you decided for Allah, If i say im an aethist, i and a whole lot of other people are aethists, and what is the basis of our belief for us calling ourselves african aethists since we as Africans never heard any way of verifying anything(religion, science, art, facts, figures, technology, nothing), nothing about what we were told(that there is a God, or there is no God), or that there is one who doesnt give a damn about whats happening? Let someone tell us about his own personal research you have done, and what results you have gotten that are different from what others have or had gotten.

So Mr. jagunlabi, if your conclusion that African Christians are wrong in their belief in Jesus, since as you said they had no way of verifying the history of their faith, then the same is true for you that you(and all those who despise Christianity) are wrong in your disbelief in Jesus because you have not, as a person verified the root cause and history of what faith or faithlessness holds sway in your heart and mind. Its just two sides of the same coin, brother, an application of some logic.

Let me give you another problem to solve: do you know Mr Jagunlabi, that your two ears are not on the same level on your head? One is higher than the other. Take a mirror , and a tape-rule and a measure and measure the distance from center of your head downwards to your left and right ear. You might not notice the difference, but the difference is there. Now, what have you done as regards this discrepancy. But its truth. Perhaps, you might just be knowing for the first time.


Man ceases to exist when he ceases to belief in a supernatural being. There is an element of God in every human heart and soul, whether that person likes it or not. Its either we resist it, or accept Him. The greater truth is that the host of Heaven always back up the Bible. The Bible was one of the first references on science and medicine.

I'm not here preaching Christianity, neither am I despising it, im just trying to make you see the import of having a balanced view on things. And Mr Jagunlabi, what personal effort have you made to verify the genuineness of this Nairaland forum, and all the technology the internet offers us, I can conclude that yes, these things were imposed on you.

Naturally, common sense should make us to see the light, but its a pity tha what each of us is born with that is so common, is no more common.

@orikinla

Quote
On those calling Christianity a foreign religion, which religion is not foreign?
IFA?
Where did Oduduwa come from?
Historically from Iraq.
Where did Abraham come from?
Historically from Iraq.
Where did the Father and Founder of the Hausas come from?
Historically from Iraq.

Even IFA Divination pointed to Jesus Christ.
For even Satan knows the truth.

And i wonder how many Nigerians have gone to Iraq to go and verify the roots of their Faith, yet Ifa divination is now on the intenet.

should i end now?
Mr Jagulabi and his likes:
If the Bible is what you don't believe in, NairaLand is not the best resource for you to prove your disbelief or find your faith.

thanks for the article nightrider, it was really insightful.

the bible says that

the bible says satan deceived eve. satan told her if she eats the fruit she will be like God. she went ahead to eat the fruit and instead death and destruction came to mankind.

the bible says satan did not just deceive judas isacariot , satan entered into him. so you can imagine the hgh level of deception.
satan must have told him all sorts of crap, which he believed in his mind and he went on to betray jesus. he ended up committing sucide. Satan must have given him beautiful promises which made him do what he did.

Jesus knew that judas would betray him. even king david said it. woe to the man who would betray him.

the betrayal of jesus had been foretold hundreds of year before he was born in the manuscripts penned by king david and he told of the doom that would befall the man. and its corroborated in the new testament, with the death of judas by sucide, hundreds of years later. Even unbelieving scientists have agreed that it would have been impossible for the old testament to so accurately describe what happened hundreds of years later in the new testament. Old testament prophets even foretold up to the piont where Jesus clothes would be cast for lots. how could they possibly have known that. like i said it has been proven that old testament was written hundreds of years before what occured in israel. so how did they know.

king davids grave is in israel today( so it's not fake) for those of you who don't believe in the bible

God is true , let every man manuscript be a liar

@wellborn, kimba, nightrider and other Christians in here:

well done. you all have done a good job. i can't make some comments of mne right now because i don't have much time, but God bless you all and may he shine the light upon this unbelieving folks.

@ them scoffers: scoff on!!!! it was written already so i'm not suprised.

Whoaaa glade.x et al

There is nothing wrong in reasoning, as long as it doesn't shake one's belief. David's grave is there, as well as other things found in the bible. I think I even saw an article purporting that Noah's ark may have been found. I may have said this before, but there are many parts of the bible that have been misconstrued, though true (Jesus being white, Jesus being born on Dec 25, whites using the bible to support slavery, etc).

So, if I disagree with what someone said, based on their reasoning, yet I am a christian, will you say God should bless me too? I sure hope so


, and that's my 2 cents

my2cents

nobody said Jesus was born on 25th december, the bible doesn't say that.

what you fail to realise is that christmas is not a celebration of Jesus birthday
it is a celebration of Jesus birth. so it can be on anyday. and 25th december was chosen. for whatever reason it was chosen doesn't matter, becuz God created all days.

Jesus was a jew are jews black.jews are white

and where did the whites use the bible to support slavery, rather i remember that the bible was used to abolish slavery.

Well then nightrider, allowme to retort

> nobody said Jesus was born on 25th december, the bible doesn't say that, what you fail to realise is that christmas is not a celebration of Jesus
> birthday
I will agree with you there, but the date chosen is pretty interesting. If my secondary school teaching serves me right, I believe it was originally a day set aside to honor a roman god. It is funny that that day of all days would be chosen. Check out http://www.holidays.net/christmas/story.htm

> Jesus was a jew are jews black.jews are white
LOL. I don't even want to begin to think what this line means. But again, I will maintain, that for years, we have been led to believe that Jesus was white. If not, y do all the photos, statues, etc show him as such? So sure, Jews are white and black. I am not even saying he was black. He definitely wasn't white.

> and where did the whites use the bible to support slavery, rather i remember that the bible was used to abolish slavery.
Weeell, if my University history serves me right, I believe they always referred to the following scriptures to keep their slaves under check: Ephesians 6:5, Colossians 3:22. This is what I was taught o! For all I know, it could have been another attempt at indoctrination

> what you fail to realise is that christmas is not a celebration of Jesus birthday
> it is a celebration of Jesus birth. so it can be on anyday. and 25th december was chosen. for whatever reason it was chosen doesn't matter,
> becuz God created all days.

Again, if you want to be technical about the bible, the bible doesn't say we should "celebrate Jesus birth". Nowhere will you find anyone observing his birth. It does say we should "celebrate" Jesus death (Luke 22:19, 1 Cor 11: 24-26). When? Upon the first day of the week (Acts 20:7)

Depending on your response, I would be glad to retort more

, and that's my 2 cents

Now, now, now, my gentleman, e-z! 

my2cents:

Well then nightrider, allowme to retort . . .
I will agree with you there, but the date chosen is pretty interesting. If my secondary school teaching serves me right, I believe it was originally a day set aside to honor a roman god. It is funny that that day of all days would be chosen. Check out http://www.holidays.net/christmas/story.htm

I really don't know where you stand, but the arguments about Dec.25, Sunday, Saturday, Easter, etc. will lead us nowhere. I amuse myself sometimes by browsing the net for news, and I've come across so many things about each day of the year (including the leap days, Feb.29) dedicated to one god/demon/pagan deity or the other by Romans or some other civilizations. Question: if everyday of the week was owned by a Roman pagan god, did your secondary school teaching not give you what day was dedicated to Christian worship? The interesting thing is that some of the sources I read these things from say that everything in Christianity was borrowed from Roman paganism! Meaning? Simply meaning that. . . you most probably have been eating your breakfast as borrowed from a Roman pagan deity (whoops!!  ). No, seriously.

As for me, I celebrate His birth, death and resurrection in several ways than one - worship in Church, at home singing and dancing to praise songs about the victory of Jesus, His soon coming back, and the glorious hope that awaits wretched sinners like me whom He washed in His blood. His triumph would never be have been possible without His incarnation and birth. I'm not going to let any Roman pagan god dedication (Mithra or otherwise) prevent me from shouting His praise! [size=14pt]Hallelujah!![/size]   

my2cents:

LOL. I don't even want to begin to think what this line means. But again, I will maintain, that for years, we have been led to believe that Jesus was white. If not, y do all the photos, statues, etc show him as such? So sure, Jews are white and black. I am not even saying he was black. He definitely wasn't white.

Okay, Jesus was not black, and He wasn't white - do you have a name for what you describing? I'm still scratching my head. . . maybe, uhm. . "translucent"?  (God, please forgive me!) See, my dear, you've a great mind, but don't waste it. If you're neither here nor there, why bother? The way I see it, He is not racist; and His death on the Cross was to bring people of all cultures, race and tongue together in the divine family of God - see Gal.3:28. He most certainly was born a Jew, and Jews have a colour; but His being black or white does not make you or me any more or less spiritual.

I suppose that II Cor. 5:16 speaks to people who try to ferret out questions of all sorts about the identity of Jesus - His colour, height, sleeping campbag, colour of eye, weight, pedicure and manicure. . . haba! Wetin happen? I just don't care so much about these things: before the incarnation of Jesus, we were all sinners in the eyes of God. So, if God chose to send His Son to the world through the sinful nation of the Jews, is that any worse or better than if God had sent His Son as an American, South African, or Aborigine? God promise that salvation was going to be by the Jews - the prophecy was fulfilled, and that should rest our hearts. 

Let's just rejoice in Jesus - He is the thrill of my soul, and I just can't wait for Him to return - and there'll be so much joy in that day to even be concerned about Dec. 25, Mithra, His skin colour, etc. Just relax and enjoy in Him.

God bless 

Dude (or dudette ),

Welborn, no need preaching to the choir. I am only reasoning with him and others. I am only stating fact. It is good to have fact when making a point. I quoted scripture to back me up, he didn't. There are people who aren't black or white, by the way. If not, what are the chinese? what are the present day egyptians? They certainly aren't transluscent. LOL.

I am not taking it personal. Just correcting his notion. As Seun the administrator said, we should read posts in their entirety before responding as it may hv been dealt with earlier on. Someone else already talked about most of what he said.

In the end, we shouldn't just go to war based on who said what. We should sit back, ponder what they said and make it a battle of ideas.

did the bible say you should celebrate your birthday? why do you?
if you clebrate your own. i'll gladly celebrate my Lord's birth. when he was born angels sang, sheperds journeyed and worshipped. they definately celebrated his birth, so whether the bible says it or not theres nuthin wrong with it.

whatever colour you want to call Jesus, he wasn't black, which is what i thot you were refering to in your earlier post. jews are middle eastern, so whatever color they are thats obviously what he was. Not that i care.

whites use the bible to support slavery, if your history serves you right, then your probably right. but as for the rest ,

my2cents:

Welborn, no need preaching to the choir. I am only reasoning with him and others.

In the end, we shouldn't just go to war based on who said what. We should sit back, ponder what they said and make it a battle of ideas.

Sorry dude  ,

I wasn't preaching to the choir. . . and I most certainly read your post before making comments - you should've seen that if you applied the same rule to yourself. Some of what you stated are not facts - that's why I asked you to take it e-z. When you make issues a battle of ideas, did my rejoinder sound any less so?

Bless up dude.  

nightrider, ki lo de? na wa o!

The bible obviously doesn't say I should celebrate my birthday, but obviously I am not to be worshipped LOL. This is about Jesus, not me

I don't care about Jesus' race. I do care about how some people tried to impose on me their beliefs, while making my beliefs sound inferior.

LOL, u funny man.

welborn ,

I anxiously await you to point out what facts of mine are wrong. Do state them, and if they are wrong, I will gladly apologize.

So, let's do it - wrestlemania 22. Hulk Hogan vs Ultimate Warrior 2

You don't get it, do you? Once you begin to sport for a fight (wrestlemania and all that trash talk) - welborn doesn't partake. If you want to learn, re-read my post, sit back and ponder what I've said - then make some sense from it. Need some sane discussion, talk to me.

Warm regards.

I c u didn't spot the sarcasm.

I am for reason. I am for battling ideas out. In the end, we can agree to disagree.

So perhaps you should take it easy. It is interesting that some pple, when it comes to religion, wd rather jump off a cliff, than reason something out.

Now I can see you are pissed - u used to end your posts with ", bless, ". Now, it is "warm regards" LOL. Make God no bless me again? Na wa o!

My2cents,

I will like to give you a scenario in answer to your curiosity about the date chosen for Christmas celebrations and Sunday worship.  In Nigeria today, I know that muslims now have Friday night vigils and Sunday meetings because of their desire to keep thier brethren from going to church.  This action doesn't mean they now worship Jehovah, rather, it is an effort to occupy the time of their faithfuls, who they consider in danger of going to church and getting saved, thereby negleting their faith.  Such deductive reasoning could well be extended to Christians.  Maybe a similar situation existed in the early church and having meetings on the same day as the others could have been seen as one way of keeping some weak christians from idol worship.

From all indication however, I believe sunday was chosen for Christian worship because Our Savior rose up from the grave on a Sunday.  As Paul said, our faith is in vain without the Resurrection of Jesus.  It follows then that we should worship Him on the day when our Faith was sealed.

The issue of Jesus being white or black is so trivial and unimportant that I don't even want to give it a reply.  White or black, yellow or green, it doesn't matter.  What matters is His blood that was shed.  Remission of sins is through the blood.  And in any case, have you noticed the colour of the blood of all races is RED?

Technical or not, celebrating His birth does not take anything away from Christianity.  We know that Angels were seen rejoicing on the day He was born.  And besides, I've never known anyone that complained of the Rice and Food Very Plenty that is available on Christams celebrations.  If you think about what it involved and how long it took for Jesus to come in the flesh, then you will know that the day is also worth celebrating.  The first prophecy of Jesus' birth came in Genesis and see how long it took for that Word to become Flesh.  Men of God had to keep saying it in prophecy over the years till the WORD fulfilled what God said, that it will never return to Him void.

Likewise today, we keep saying He is coming back a second time, and though He tarries, He will yet show up.  As said in the book of revelation "The Spirit and the Bride say COME".  Come O Lord Jesus.

TayoD et al,

Let me clarify myself: I am a christian. Not jus because I was born into a christian family, but by virtue of being baptized. Now, all I did is what any normal lawyer would do, dissect the argument that was made. I believe that we will know the truth on the judgement day. For now, all I am saying is that we shouldn't argue about this based on emotion.

Religion is obviously a hot button issue amongst Nigerians. I accept that. Just remember though, that this religion wasn't ours originally and was taught to us. When I talk about the bible, I like to see it from the perspective of many passages. I also like to see it from a historical perspective. In the end, I will make the decision for myself, but I won't do something, just because, it has been preached for thousands of years, like a zombie.

Again, sure, there were probably 7 days of celebration for other gods. All I was saying is that it is funny that that date was chosen in the first place. Many years ago, I am sure that date was accepted as fact, until someone started researching that it was too cold for anyone to be out on december 25th.

So you can all bring me down from the cross now (ooops, have I started another emotion-filled thread? )

my2cents:

I c u didn't spot the sarcasm.
I am for reason. I am for battling ideas out. In the end, we can agree to disagree.
So perhaps you should take it easy. It is interesting that some people, when it comes to religion, wd rather jump off a cliff, than reason something out.
Now I can see you are pissed - u used to end your posts with ", bless, ". Now, it is "warm regards" LOL. Make God no bless me again? Na wa o!

@my2cents,

were you really trying to be sarcastic?! - because I wasn't; and if you're suggesting that I didn't "spot the sarcasm", then I take it you left me a sarcasm to spot in your post. No thanks, I don't live my Christian life that way. Again, if you could not reason out anything from my posts, good as well - but I noticed you do have a penchant for petty brawls by stating that "some people. . . wd rather jump off a cliff."

Let me explain something to you. You may not find it difficult to be uncivilized. And, no thanks - I'm not pissed. I thought you'd be mature enough to see that and be grown up; if you still don't, no qualms. I end my posts in several ways than one -

   Peace to all
   Bless up
   Many blessings    
   . . . or simply no subscript at all.

If I wanted, I could say the very same things with "warm regards" - that means I'm pissed? I don't think you really needed to stoop that low. I've asked you to talk to me - in sane discussions. Seeing you're more interested in having a brawl, seeking to be sarcastic than sensible, and coming back with vituperations, I'll leave you to foam in the mouth if you please. And you don't need my blessings for that. When you come back with good points, I'll see ya then.  

My2cents,

Common, I don't think there's anyone here crucifying you. We know you won't rise from the dead the third day if we do .

Anyway to be serious, this is what I believe we are all trying to do in this forum: 1 Peter 3:15 says "But in you hearts set Christ apart as holy (and acknowledge Him) as Lord. Always be ready to give a logical defense to anyone who asks you to account for the hope that is in you, but do it courteously and respectfully." (Amplified Bible).

I respect your opinion and it helps me to think about my faith as well.

By the way, is it baptism that makes you a Christian or faith in Jesus and making Him your Lord and Savior?

TayoD,

I believe that baptism does: Mark 16:16, Acts 2, Acts 19:5, Romans 6:3, 1 Corinthians 12:13 and Galatians 3:27. In particular, for the last scripture, if we put on Christ and at Antioch, we were first called Christians, wouldn't that imply that being baptized is what makes us Christians?

In the end, you can have faith, or as some say "be saved by grace (sometimes, by simply placing your hand on the TV screen), but yes, you need to be baptized.

By the way, thanks for not crucifying me (although you didn't end your last post with "*bless*" LOL. At least I am happy you understand where I came from

welborn,

Something tells me that you are the one who needs to take it e-z

QED

my2cents:

Again, sure, there were probably 7 days of celebration for other gods. All I was saying is that it is funny that that date was chosen in the first place. Many years ago, I am sure that date was accepted as fact, until someone started researching that it was too cold for anyone to be out on december 25th.

They are wrong. I lived in the Scandinavia (Sweden, Finland, and Norway) for no less than 4 months on the average because of the nature of my work. You'll be surprised to find that, pregnant women have been very active in winter in these places. In Mongolia, most of the pregnant women are active in winter with domestic chores - even trekking for miles away from home. It doesn't make sense to doubt the timing of the Lord's birth simply because some people researched that "it was too cold for anyone to be out on december 25th." That is the kind of research that emerged recently with a professor suggested that Jesus might not have walked on water but on ice. (find it here). This is one of the few things I wanted to amicably point out to you before you spinned off. Let's just take it e-z and have a sane discussion about issues.

About baptism making people Christians. I'm afraid baptism does not make a person born again as is found in John 1:12-13  and  3:3-5. Many people have been baptized and still were not born again. The Ephesian disciples were baptized and rebaptized after Paul preached to them in Acts 19:1-6. Even Paul stated that he did not baptize any of the Corinthians (except Crispus, Gaius and the household of Stephanas) - I Cor. 1:14-16. Water batism has its own value as a public witness of one's faith in Christ; but nowhere does it make a person "born again" (which is by faith in Jesus Christ). This is not to say that I'm against or play down baptism - I just state that it does not have the power to make anyone "born again."

I hope we can talk now, but if not, let me know  

Finally, a calm welborn, I knew there was something in your username

By contradiction, i would like to refute your argument on baptism based on john 3. It clearly says unless one be born of water and the spirit. Being baptised isn't a sure ticket to heaven, sure. After all, you can still sin after baptism. When you are baptized, your sins are washed away, u become a new creature.

Even Jesus was baptized, but I digress.

Okay, way to go. I'll advice we take this very interesting discussion about salvation to another thread so I could ease up more and calmly share my views with you on John 3. God bless.


P.S.
Perhaps, if you're going to open the thread, I'll suggest a topic: "What Is Salvation?" or something like that. Anything will do, though.

TY.

I knew I was gonna provoke a new discussion by questioning the salvation claim of my2cents.

lol. . .will be good to see how that holds out.

TayoD,

You dug the well and now you are gonna have to fill it back up yourself. Having spent the past 2 hours debating an issue which originally started off as "Judas didn't betray Jesus after all", while at work at that, I am spent.

Toodles, Now, back to the IT section, which is why I joined Nairaland in the first place

duh , plain blank

Judas betrayed Jesus Christ

He did it with a kiss

Shame

No achaeologist or whoever can re-write what has been written

It is the 1 and Holy Bible

They say things to decieve people

Beware


!!!!

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Engineer Bola