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Can Religion Be Logical? - Religion - Nairaland

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We Can All Be Spiritual And Still Be Logical. / If U Can Only Be Logical And Reasonable, Let's Discuss Islam / Only A Christian Can Be Logical (2) (3) (4)

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Can Religion Be Logical? by mkmyers45(m): 1:13pm On Aug 07, 2012
Normally religion is only a matter of faith and the logic of science doesn't apply. Other than the concept of Designed Humanism, are there other religions that can combine God with a belief in logic?
Re: Can Religion Be Logical? by MacDaddy01: 1:16pm On Aug 07, 2012
mkmyers45: Normally religion is only a matter of faith and the logic of science doesn't apply. Other than the concept of Designed Humanism, are there other religions that can combine God with a belief in logic?



Impossible.

Belief in God is not logical, it is based on faith
Re: Can Religion Be Logical? by mkmyers45(m): 1:22pm On Aug 07, 2012
MacDaddy01:



Impossible.

Belief in God is not logical, it is based on faith

Certain Correlations of Logic and Belief surely can be deduced? Seeing is believing?
Re: Can Religion Be Logical? by wiegraf: 1:36pm On Aug 07, 2012
What are you asking, can a faith based system work in tandem with logic/science? Obviously no. Once it can be tested, verified etc it stops being labeled 'faith' and levels up to a tag like 'fact', 'science' etc.( When ppl claim some dogma from a faith based system is a fact you have to wonder what the hell are they talking about. They're called 'faith based' for a reason for f#*k's sake,, they are not based on fact.)

Religion on the other means a lot of things, so you'll have to clarify.
Re: Can Religion Be Logical? by tpia5: 1:37pm On Aug 07, 2012
religion is very logical, imo.

if you disagree, that's your own opinion and no need to jump up in frenzy, thanks.
Re: Can Religion Be Logical? by mkmyers45(m): 1:41pm On Aug 07, 2012
tpia@:
religion is very logical, imo.

if you disagree, that's your own opinion and no need to jump up in frenzy, thanks.

Can you please draw assertions between logic and faith?
Re: Can Religion Be Logical? by mkmyers45(m): 1:45pm On Aug 07, 2012
wiegraf: What are you asking, can a faith based system work in tandem with logic/science? Obviously no. Once it can be tested, verified etc it stops being labeled 'faith' and levels up to a tag like 'fact', 'science' etc.( When ppl claim some dogma from a faith based system is a fact you have to wonder what the hell are they talking about. They're called 'faith based' for a reason for f#*k's sake,, they are not based on fact.)

Religion on the other means a lot of things, so you'll have to clarify.

Well , the bolded is one of the reasons for this topic
Re: Can Religion Be Logical? by Ubenedictus(m): 1:49pm On Aug 07, 2012
mkmyers45: Normally religion is only a matter of faith and the logic of science doesn't apply. Other than the concept of Designed Humanism, are there other religions that can combine God with a belief in logic?
as far as im aware religion is very logical, it uses logic and reason, it is not opposed to reason or logic but it trancends reason and logic. I think a google search will reveal pope benedict's ideas of faith and reason.
Re: Can Religion Be Logical? by mkmyers45(m): 1:55pm On Aug 07, 2012
Ubenedictus: as far as im aware religion is very logical, it uses logic and reason, it is not opposed to reason or logic but it trancends reason and logic. I think a google search will reveal pope benedict's ideas of faith and reason.

@First Bolded: What word do you use for what allegedly transends logic? Can you relate that point with logic so we can see the difference and agree to its superiority.

@Second Bolded: You can be kind enough to copy and paste them here for all....
Re: Can Religion Be Logical? by okeyxyz(m): 1:57pm On Aug 07, 2012
wiegraf: What are you asking, can a faith based system work in tandem with logic/science? Obviously no. Once it can be tested, verified etc it stops being labeled 'faith' and levels up to a tag like 'fact', 'science' etc.( When ppl claim some dogma from a faith based system is a fact you have to wonder what the hell are they talking about. They're called 'faith based' for a reason for f#*k's sake,, they are not based on fact.)

Religion on the other means a lot of things, so you'll have to clarify.
Faith/religion is a logic, it may not be your cup of tea but it is for somebody else and that's why he practices it. What is logic? Simply put: logic is a principle or manner of thought/action. Religion operates on the principle of morality, It has it's definitions of right/wrong, as long as it's consistent, then it's logical. Period. Just as there are principles of accountancy & finance, Principles of law, democracy, communism, etc. You cannot declare a discipline as illogical just because it's not your choice. You observe religious people and you expect them to behave in a certain way because of their faith, That proves the logic of their faith because you can predict their reactions to certain events, Does that not demonstrate a consistency in their manner of actions? Thus logical!!
Re: Can Religion Be Logical? by mkmyers45(m): 1:59pm On Aug 07, 2012
okeyxyz:
Faith/religion is a logic, it may not be your cup of tea but it is for somebody else and that's why he practices it. What is logic? Simply put: logic is a principle or manner of thought/action. Religion operates on the principle of morality, It has it's definitions of right/wrong, as long as it's consistent, then it's logical. Period. Just as there are principles of accountancy & finance, Principles of law, democracy, communism, etc. You cannot declare a discipline as illogical just because it's not your choice. You observe religious people and you expect them to behave in a certain way because of their faith, That proves the logic of their faith because you can predict their reactions to certain events, Does that not demonstrate a consistency in their manner of actions? Thus logical!!

I'm sorry but i have to disagree with your post because expected reactions is never consistent no matter how oriented a group of people are....
Re: Can Religion Be Logical? by mkmyers45(m): 2:02pm On Aug 07, 2012
okeyxyz:
Faith/religion is a logic, it may not be your cup of tea but it is for somebody else and that's why he practices it. What is logic? Simply put: logic is a principle or manner of thought/action. Religion operates on the principle of morality, It has it's definitions of right/wrong, as long as it's consistent, then it's logical. Period. Just as there are principles of accountancy & finance, Principles of law, democracy, communism, etc. You cannot declare a discipline as illogical just because it's not your choice. You observe religious people and you expect them to behave in a certain way because of their faith, That proves the logic of their faith because you can predict their reactions to certain events, Does that not demonstrate a consistency in their manner of actions? Thus logical!!

I'm sorry but i can't seem to place principled mode of thoughts with faith? how do they go together? To believe in the divinity of 'gods' is logical because?
Re: Can Religion Be Logical? by okeyxyz(m): 2:36pm On Aug 07, 2012
mkmyers45:

I'm sorry but i have to disagree with your post because expected reactions is never consistent no matter how oriented a group of people are....
So if 100 percent expected reaction is not guaranteed does that invalidate logic? Even scientific outcomes are not 100 percent guaranteed and that's why there continues to be researches to understand the variances. That's why every scientific fact is defined within parameters/conditions, which means these outcomes are not universal.
Regarding christianity, If a typical christian has se.x with a woman he's not married to, it considered fornication and it continues to be fornication as long as such woman is not married to him. So what's not predictable about that?
Re: Can Religion Be Logical? by mkmyers45(m): 2:48pm On Aug 07, 2012
okeyxyz:
So if 100 percent expected reaction is not guaranteed does that invalidate logic? Even scientific outcomes are not 100 percent guaranteed and that's why there continues to be researches to understand the variances. That's why every scientific fact is defined within parameters/conditions, which means these outcomes are not universal.
Regarding christianity, If a typical christian has se.x with a woman he's not married to, it considered fornication and it continues to be fornication as long as such woman is not married to him. So what's not predictable about that?

Well, you are talking about basic expectations from basic pre-set laws and that i understand although you and i know that you analogy is only set on bible-defined conditions i.e Widely logical variance is seen in controversial non-bible covered topics e.g mastur.bation but how do we look at religion in the true light of logic?
Re: Can Religion Be Logical? by okeyxyz(m): 2:49pm On Aug 07, 2012
mkmyers45:

I'm sorry but i can't seem to place principled mode of thoughts with faith? how do they go together? To believe in the divinity of 'gods' is logical because?
So what makes a christian different from moslem/bhuddist/atheist? is it not his principles/values system? Once you can identify an entity/group and can describe it's characteristics and predict it's behaviour, then theres a logic behind such behaviour/predictions.
Re: Can Religion Be Logical? by mkmyers45(m): 2:53pm On Aug 07, 2012
okeyxyz:
So what makes a christian different from moslem/bhuddist/atheist? is it not his principles/values system? Once you can identify an entity/group and can describe it's characteristics and predict it's behaviour, then theres a logic behind such behaviour/predictions.

Can you make a clear comparison between logic and behavior? I will like us to take it up from there...
Re: Can Religion Be Logical? by okeyxyz(m): 3:10pm On Aug 07, 2012
mkmyers45:

Can you make a clear comparison between logic and behavior? I will like us to take it up from there...
There's no difference. Logic is a pattern of behaviour. each entity/group has it's own logic/behaviour.
Re: Can Religion Be Logical? by mkmyers45(m): 3:39pm On Aug 07, 2012
okeyxyz:
There's no difference. Logic is a pattern of behaviour. each entity/group has it's own logic/behaviour.

Sorry but how did you arrive at that definition?

log·ic (ljk)
n.
1. The study of the principles of reasoning, especially of the structure of propositions as distinguished from their content and of method and validity in deductive reasoning.

a (1) : a science that deals with the principles and criteria of validity of inference and demonstration : the science of the formal principles of reasoning

Its purely based on truthful stances arrived at by reasoning not behavior sir
Re: Can Religion Be Logical? by okeyxyz(m): 4:17pm On Aug 07, 2012
mkmyers45:

Sorry but how did you arrive at that definition?

log·ic (ljk)
n.
1. The study of the principles of reasoning, especially of the structure of propositions as distinguished from their content and of method and validity in deductive reasoning.
a (1) : a science that deals with the principles and criteria of validity of inference and demonstration : the science of the formal principles of reasoning
mkmyers45: Its purely based on truthful stances arrived at by reasoning not behavior sir

Okay, would you be happier if i rephrased as: logic is a pattern of reasoning/behaviour? Is there any behaviour without reason?
Your dictionary references has not contradicted me, Just used different words to say the same things.
Re: Can Religion Be Logical? by mkmyers45(m): 4:20pm On Aug 07, 2012
okeyxyz:
Okay, would you be happier if i rephrased as: logic is a pattern of reasoning & behaviour? Is there any behaviour without reason?
Your dictionary references has not contradicted me, Just used different words to say the same things.

reasoning to ascertain things as true in contrast to acception by faith dosent go with behavior to me tbh...Some behavioral patterns cannot be said to be unreasoned can't they?
Re: Can Religion Be Logical? by Ubenedictus(m): 4:25pm On Aug 07, 2012
mkmyers45:

@First Bolded: What word do you use for what allegedly transends logic?
dear friend i dont have a special word for what transcend reason, but i have an experience it.
Can you relate that point with logic so we can see the difference and agree to its superiority.
do u want to help me. I never mentioned superiority i talked about transcended. It is imposible to explain spiritual matter to someone who doesnt believe he has a spirit. We need a starting point.

@Second Bolded: You can be kind enough to copy and paste them here for all....
better still i can give you a link to pope john paul documents on faith and reason. It is a christian perspective and to be specific a catholic perspective. http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/encyclicals/documents/hf_jp-ii_enc_15101998_fides-et-ratio_en.html i would be happy to discuss with anyone on the points he raised.
Peace
Re: Can Religion Be Logical? by okeyxyz(m): 4:31pm On Aug 07, 2012
mkmyers45:

reasoning to ascertain things as true in contrast to acception by faith dosent go with behavior to me tbh...Some behavioral patterns cannot be said to be unreasoned can't they?
But people of faith do have a reason for believing, don't they? The subject of their belief must meet a set of criteria/logic before they decide to believe. You cannot say it's without logic simply because it's a different system from yours. Hell!, Even a mad man has a reason for his thoughts & behaviours, though best known to him alone, Which is why psychiatrists study, analyse, categorize and treat them.
Re: Can Religion Be Logical? by mkmyers45(m): 4:34pm On Aug 07, 2012
Ubenedictus: dear friend i dont have a special word for what transcend reason, but i have an experience it. do u want to help me. I never mentioned superiority i talked about transcended. It is imposible to explain spiritual matter to someone who doesnt believe he has a spirit. We need a starting point.

better still i can give you a link to pope john paul documents on faith and reason. It is a christian perspective and to be specific a catholic perspective. http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/encyclicals/documents/hf_jp-ii_enc_15101998_fides-et-ratio_en.html i would be happy to discuss with anyone on the points he raised.
Peace

Wow...Nice of you to make conclusions?

@First Bolded: Can you explain this experience?

@Second Bolded: Please is there a difference between transcendent and superiority? Is conviction not a spiritual matter? Ok, so what is the aim of your posts if its not to educate? to ridicule the damned?
Re: Can Religion Be Logical? by mkmyers45(m): 4:38pm On Aug 07, 2012
okeyxyz:
But people of faith do have a reason for believing, don't they? The subject of their belief must meet a set of criteria/logic before they decide to believe. You cannot say it's without logic simply because it's a different system from yours. Hell!, Even a mad man has a reason for his thoughts & behaviours, though best known to him alone, Which is why psychiatrists study, analyse, categorize and treat them.

@First Bolded: All the reason they have to believe is in the word faith right?

@Second Bolded: Are you saying that religious conviction is subject to logical conclusion by the believer that what he believes in is true and not faith?
Re: Can Religion Be Logical? by Nobody: 4:49pm On Aug 07, 2012
mkmyers45:

@First Bolded: All the reason they have to believe is in the word faith right?

@Second Bolded: Are you saying that religious conviction is subject to logical conclusion by the believer that what he believes in is true and not faith?

You sound like an atheist even though okeyxyz is trying hard to defend religion as being logical. . . .From my little understanding,Religion has its own ethics which is not subjected to any logical reasoning.

These ethics cant be disputed and its obligatory on those that abide by the standards of every religion.If scientific theories cant be questioned or modified,should we now assume that science itself is illogical since it's not based on sound reasoning.I'm sure you know that not all scientific theories are really valid !
Re: Can Religion Be Logical? by claremont(m): 4:52pm On Aug 07, 2012
Religion and science/logic are radically incompatible and have been proven to be so. There have been noble attempts in the past to harmonize both via a series of basic scientific evaluations of religious claims, the conclusions have unanimously been that these claims have been entirely false.

Science/logic works on the basis of proof, the existence of this proof validates or invalidates an initial hypothesis. In other words, the absence of evidence is clearly the evidence of absence. Religion on the other hand works on the basis of the faith of its adherents, it is a misnomer to have faith and still believe in the rigours of scientific evaluations. A clear example of this is the fact of human evolution, yet religion still upholds the archaic view that a deity created the world in 7 days, this is besides the plethora of evidence that prove the contrary.

This is the reason why most scientists consider religious belief as a tell-tale sign of mental illness. People who choose to disbelieve clear scientific evidence, but believe tales inscribed in a 2000 year old book, are surely mental.
Re: Can Religion Be Logical? by deandavid(m): 4:54pm On Aug 07, 2012
my religion christianity can be logical to some EXTENT or level, there are levels where you cannot logically/rationally or scientifically relate with religion,thats where FAITH comes in. I believe in christ, not because i'v seen him physically or because people believe in him, i didnt chose christianity, God chose me to be a christian, how can u logically explain that?
Re: Can Religion Be Logical? by mkmyers45(m): 4:58pm On Aug 07, 2012
~Bluetooth:


You sound like an atheist even though okeyxyz is trying hard to defend religion as being logical. . . .From my little understanding,Religion has its own ethics which is not subjected to any logical reasoning.

These ethics cant be disputed and its obligatory on those that abide by the standards of every religion.If scientific theories cant be questioned or modified,should we now assume that science itself is illogical since it's not based on sound reasoning.I'm sure you know that not all scientific theories are really valid !


@First Bolded: Im not sorry

@Second Bolded: Science can't be questioned? if that what you are saying then i have to kindly say that's not true....A scientific theory can be challenged and possibly overthrown if superior evidence against it is presented...Well theories are not principles as they keep looking for more evidence to strengthen them (theories are not conclusive but mainly suggestive within certain limits) but we do have scientific laws.
Re: Can Religion Be Logical? by mkmyers45(m): 5:00pm On Aug 07, 2012
deandavid: my religion christianity can be logical to some EXTENT or level, there are levels where you cannot logically/rationally or scientifically relate with religion,thats where FAITH comes in. I believe in christ, not because i'v seen him physically or because people believe in him, i didnt chose christianity, God chose me to be a christian, how can u logically explain that?

I will like you to expatiate and educate us on these noticed extents...
Re: Can Religion Be Logical? by adetunrayo(f): 5:09pm On Aug 07, 2012
dont start another war dudes
Re: Can Religion Be Logical? by mkmyers45(m): 5:14pm On Aug 07, 2012
adetunrayo: dont start another war dudes

we aren't warring but learning...
Re: Can Religion Be Logical? by Ubenedictus(m): 5:16pm On Aug 07, 2012
It seems u are trying to bait me, that is not a good way to make meaningful discussion
mkmyers45:

Wow...Nice of you to make conclusions?
my mind is open, it seem u have shut urs to d posibility that a soul or spirit exists.

@First Bolded: Can you explain this experience?
i will discribe it using these two words: satisfaction, fulfilment.

@Second Bolded: Please is there a difference between transcendent and superiority?
i think u need to see a dictionary.
Is conviction not a spiritual matter?
no it is also intellectual.
Ok, so what is the aim of your posts if its not to educate? to ridicule the damned?
dear im very sure i didnt ridicule be for a discussion to begin we need a common ground, you are clearly against anything spiritual and faith is both intellectual and spiritual. It is almost imposible to discus spiritual thing with one who doesnt believe in d spiritual.
I noticed you had no comment about the link i gave.

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