free123: 9:21pm
muslim take ur islam to ur brothers. tell them to stop killing

frosbel:
All this just to explain what is supposed to be a single concept.
You are truly going round in circles.

aletheia: So Frosbel tell us how an Influence has a Mind, and a Will, and Speaks?

aletheia: So my question to you Frosbel is this: Is Jesus Christ God come in the flesh or not?

Sweetnecta: I am glad that Frosbel finally admitted that neither Jesus nor Holy Spirit is God.

Now you need to quit christianity altogether because the Bible, through the confusion maker magician saint Paul stated Jesus and Holy Spirit are gods in addition to Ellah The God of Jesus.

You cannot say you are a monotheist as a christian with what we find in the Bible.

Your best bet is Islam being the true monpteist, and the only radical and clearly worldwide Universal monotheists are the muslims; Islam is unlike the tribal monotheistic judaism or pseudo monotheistic christianity.

aletheia:
Is this the crutch you lean on? The Sadducees were a minority, you know. . .so I guess by your logic, they were "safe"?

Your video there makes such a big to do about houtos and autos and at 5:23 makes this statement: "Absolutely nothing in the Greek indicates a person is in view", whereas much earlier it claims that both words may be used for both a person and an inanimate object. Seems the author is confused. . .and it is clear that he starts from a pre-determined conclusion and seeks to panel beat the scriptures to suit his own desires. . .else how do we explain his glaring silence on these words: the Word was God.

logically if the Word was God, it would indicate that Word is indeed a person and is the person kept in view by houtos and autos. The video ignores these words the Word was God. because it demolishes its premise.

frosbel:

John 1.1, 14 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God… And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory,
glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.

[size=15pt]The first and most important thing to realize is that “the word” is God’s word and not Jesus.[/size] The word does not become Jesus until John 1.14. The word of God is never in any one of the 42 books of the Bible preceding this verse referred to as a person distinct from the Father. The word is God’s utterance, his plan, his creative power, or his message given to the prophets. John 1.1 begins with the same words as Genesis 1.1. In the Genesis account God speaks and creation
happens; in John it says the word was in the beginning with God (see also Psalm 33.6, 9).

God’s word was with him. This expression may sound strange to us, but it is found in other verses as well where something is “with” them but it is really “within” them (Job 10.13; 23.13-14; Proverbs 8.22, 30). In fact, the word “with” in John 1.1 is the word pros, which most often translated “to” or “toward.” So the word was toward God or with God or within God—it was close to his heart.

The last part of John 1.1 reads, “and the word was God.” The word belongs to the sphere of God; because he is divine, his word is divine. It is not a separate being from God any more than my word is a distinct being from me, yet in a metaphoric sense my word is me because it expresses who I am. Finally in John 1.14 the word of God, his plan for salvation, his will for humanity, his ultimate revealed purpose, becomes a living breathing human being in Jesus of Nazareth. How did this happen?

The holy spirit overshadowed the virgin Mary which resulted in a totally unique pregnancy. God’s plan to save the world became flesh. In fact, throughout the Gospel of John, Jesus makes it clear that he spoke the words of God and did the works of God (John 8.28; 12.49-50).

[url=http://www.christianmonotheism.com/media/text/Sean%20Finnegan%20--%20VSE%20of%20John%201-1%20and%2014.pdf]Source[/url]

Goshen360:

@ Frosbel,

One of the problem I perceive of you is that, you lift articles from the internet without the knowledge of the belief of the writer and neither do you have the knowledge of who they are. Everyone will stand alone in judgment. The second thing I perceive is, you dislike the Catholic so much (for whatever) reason best known to you and you want to refute their teachings. Not everything in the Institutionalized Church is WRONG and NOT everything is right. When you begin to refute a biblical sound teaching or doctrine simple because of your hatred for a certain denomination and because you want to belong to the minority, that in itself is NOT a way of our Lord.

This kind of teachings belongs and originated with the Jehovah Witness. I hope you quick realize this and come back to the Lord. I sincerely pray for you....because Satan desire to have BUT He shall not succeed in Jesus' precious name and the Lord also pray for you. Am afraid, this is the kind of ways "some" pastors I have known in the past went back to being Atheists. The Lord help brother Frosbel.....my heart sincerely reach out to you because the Lord had used you to bless me and be a blessing to many others in many ways in this session and life. Thank you and God bless you.

Goshen360:

Brother Frosbel......on the highlight above, ARE YOU SURE THIS IS YOU SAYING THIS......AM NOT SURE IT'S THE FROSBEL I KNOW.......Abeg my people, hope hackers never hack our brother username on this forum o. THIS IS STRANGE TO HEAR. Brother Frosbel, this is JW's spirit, please i beg of you. Take some time to relax and stay off this topic and nairaland for a while, if possible. Please, I beg you.

God bless you.

Ihedinobi: Where were we before I left? Ah yes, Frosbel was going to kick Jesus out of the Godhead too. Oh, he's done it already? Aww, c'mon, why do I get to be right all the time? He's not gonna kick the Father out too, is he?

Frosbel, have you cut the letter to the Hebrews out of your Bible yet? You may need to to carry on with your destruction of the Trinity. But just in case you have not, pray tell, does Hebrews 10:5 agree with all these carefully-read copy-pastes you've been reveling in? It reads,

For this reason, when Christ was about to come into the world, he said to God:

"You do not want sacrifices and offerings, but you have prepared a body for me..." Good News Bible

Where were we before I left? Ah yes, Frosbel was going to kick Jesus out of the Godhead too. Oh, he's done it already? Aww, c'mon, why do I get to be right all the time? He's not gonna kick the Father out too, is he?

frosbel: What about this common scripture in Hebrews :

"But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. 9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, EVEN THY GOD, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. (Hebrews 1:8-9)

Notice in verse 9 the text EXPLICITLY says that Jesus has a God! The text says that Jesus has a God, and that God has anointed Jesus above other people! So therefore we can clearly see that the context indisputably show that in Hebrews 1:8 Jesus is a god, not THE GOD.

I could go on and on , but suffice me to say that Jesus Christ is indeed divine, he is the Son of the Living GOD , the only and ONE God , but Jesus Christ is not this GOD.

God is the Father of Jesus Christ .

Ihedinobi:

Ok, I just saw your response to my comment, but I can't answer it right off. Two reasons: (1) I wanna send two emails and hit the sack and (2) It's a lecture that your questions require.

But, I want to point something out in this comment before signing out for tonight. Given that bolded statement in your comment, are you joking when you call holders of the Trinity polytheists?

Is this the crutch you lean on? The Sadducees were a minority, you know. . .so I guess by your logic, they were "safe"?

frosbel:
Yes , they were a minority among a majority of the Pharisees like you

So my question to you Frosbel is this: Is Jesus Christ God come in the flesh or not?

frosbel:
. . .The word of God is never in any one of the 42 books of the Bible preceding this verse referred to as a person distinct from the Father.

frosbel:
The word is God’s utterance, his plan, his creative power, or his message given to the prophets. John 1.1 begins with the same words as Genesis 1.1. In the Genesis account God speaks and creation happens; in John it says the word was in the beginning with God (see also Psalm 33.6, 9).

frosbel:
God’s word was with him.This expression may sound strange to us, but it is found in other verses as well where something is “with” them but it is really “within” them (Job 10.13; 23.13-14; Proverbs 8.22, 30). In fact, the word “with” in John 1.1 is the word pros, which most often translated “to” or “toward.” So the word was toward God or with God or within God—it was close to his heart.

frosbel:
The last part of John 1.1 reads, “and the word was God.” The word belongs to the sphere of God; because he is divine, his word is divine. It is not a separate being from God any more than my word is a distinct being from me, yet in a metaphoric sense my word is me because it expresses who I am. Finally in John 1.14 the word of God, his plan for salvation, his will for humanity, his ultimate revealed purpose, becomes a living breathing human being in Jesus of Nazareth.

aletheia: @frosbel:
I said:

To which you respond. ..

It is interesting to note that you consider that the Sadducees were "safe" just because they were a minority. That gives me a insight into your mindset. . .seeing that the Sadducees were in even more flagrant error than the Pharisees. . .holding only to the Pentateuch and denying the Resurrection. By and by your identity is clearer. . .notice how you 've avoided answering this:

Because it was a Mystery, hinted at but only revealed in full at the Incarnation. . .And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

1. A "word" is that by which we communicate our will; by which we convey our thoughts; or by which we issue commands the medium of communication with others. The Son of God may be called "the Word," because he is the medium by which God promulgates His will and issues His commandments.
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; 3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high (Hebrews 1)

8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us. 9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father? (John 14)

2. Whatever is meant by the term "Word," it is clear that it had an existence before "creation." It is not, then, a "creature" or created being, and must be, therefore, uncreated and eternal. There is only one Being that is uncreated, and Jesus must be therefore divine.

You are just playing around with words. "Within"? Really? Why are there no NT verses supporting this "within" conjecture of yours? The OT was written in Hebrew + Aramaic, while the NT is written in Greek. Please show us where the word Greek pros is translated "within" in sense in which you use it in the NT?
Now the Greek word pros occurs 703 times in the Greek NT. . .and only once in Mark 14:4, did I see it translated as 'within'. Common sense would tell us that the more common denotation of the word is the one we would use when there's any doubt except when context demands otherwise and nothing in John 1:1 suggests "within". 1 out 703? Really?

So Jesus pre-Incarnation was metaphorical? These scriptures suggest otherwise:
(Joh 17:5) And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

Sweetnecta: you people are going round about. all premises hing on a wrong notion, a wrong statement from john, etc.

can a ghost, if you wish bodiless, formless spirit have a voice, audible voice that can be heard, measured and recorded with audio equipment?

is that the case with your holy spirit, which was never the case before, though this holy spirit mounted Mary to produce Jesus in the overshadowing event. dont forget the leaping event in elizabeth's tummy.

by frosbel(m): 1:11am

Sweetnecta: you people are going round about. all premises hing on a wrong notion, a wrong statement from john, etc.

can a ghost, if you wish bodiless, formless spirit have a voice, audible voice that can be heard, measured and recorded with audio equipment?

is that the case with your holy spirit, which was never the case before, though this holy spirit mounted Mary to produce Jesus in the overshadowing event. dont forget the leaping event in elizabeth's tummy.



Muhammedian run back to your Kaaba in the ISLAM section and let us alone that we may share deep truths. angry

I am sure you know there is a trinity in ISLAM, don't let us start. grin

So my question to you Frosbel is this: Is Jesus Christ God come in the flesh or not?

frosbel:
Surely you can debate without resorting to snides

frosbel:
In other words ADAM or MAN was originally intended to fully glow with the GLORY of GOD but he failed by disobedience.

With the last ADAM, Christ Jesus, his full and totally obedience meant that GOD was able to fully express his GLORY once again through MAN .

"The one who sent me is with me; he has not left me alone, for I always do what pleases him." - John 8:29

Ephesians 1:11&12 "In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be[u] for the praise of his glory.[/u]"

frosbel:
You failed to note the following phrase " sat down on the right hand of the Majesty ".

Who is the Majesty if not GOD the Father.

But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. (Heb 1:

But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool? (Heb 1:13)

frosbel:
. . .this same Word brought Christ into being for the salvation of mankind.

frosbel:

frosbel:
Christ was the “logos,”. . .

frosbel:
. . .this same Word[Logos] brought Christ into being. . .

frosbel:
When 2 Timothy 1:9 says that each Christian was given grace “before the beginning of time,” no one tries to prove that we were actually alive with God back then. Everyone acknowledges that we were “in the mind of God,” i.e., in God’s foreknowledge. The same is true of Jesus Christ.

frosbel:
Trinitarians, however, teach that Jesus was praying about glory he had with God many years before his birth, and they assert that this proves he had access to the mind and memory of his “God nature.” However, if, as a man, Jesus “remembered” being in glory with the Father before the world began, then he would have known he was God in every sense. He would not have thought of himself as a “man” at all. If he knew he was God, he would not and could not have been “tempted in every way just as we are” because nothing he encountered would have been a “real” temptation to him. He would have had no fear and no thought of failure. There is no real sense in which Scripture could actually say he was “made like his brothers in every way” (Heb. 2:17) because he would not have been like us at all. Furthermore, Scripture says that Jesus “grew” in knowledge and wisdom. That would not really be true if Christ had access to some type of God-nature with infinite knowledge and wisdom.

frosbel:
We do not have a God-nature to help us when we are tempted or are in trouble or lack knowledge or wisdom.

frosbel:
This document was taken from Appendix A of One God & One Lord: Reconsidering the Cornerstone of the Christian Faith (copyright 2003) by Christian Educational Services, a division of Spirit & Truth Fellowship International.

aletheia: @frosbel:

Very saccharine words. . .but then poison is often sweet. What you wrote above is easily dismissed. The nature of the First Adam is different from the Second and Last Adam. The First is a Man, the Second is a Spirit.

And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
(1Co 15:45-49)

And who is the distinct person that sat down at the right hand of the Majesty? Isn't it written as well But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. (Heb 1:8 )

But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool? (Heb 1:13)[/i][/b]

You got nothing to say about pros?


My. . .aren't you the confused one. Christ was the Logos, you say and yet at the same time you say. . .

So by your words, Christ who was the Logos brought Christ into being?

This is false. . .Scripture declares it so. No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him. (Joh 1:18)
The fact that Jesus is the only begotten Son renders your hypothesis null and void.

The bolded part is the straw man argument on which you build the rest of the paragraph. it is untrue, no one as far as I know makes such assertions. On the contrary, we have always asserted that Jesus Christ emptied Himself of everything pertaining to His glory. . .But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: (Php 2:7). Moreover, you discount the fact that Jesus had the Spirit without measure. . .He didn't need to "remember being in glory with the Father before the world began", the Holy Spirit would remind him. You also discount this significant event: and he was transfigured before them. And his raiment became shining, exceeding white as snow; so as no fuller on earth can white them.

One must wonder if indeed a Christian wrote this. We have the Holy Spirit, paracletos, to help us. . .
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: (Joh 1:12)

Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. (2Pe 1:4)

aletheia:
Pope Frosbel. Is that your attempt to reduce your confusion to arithmetic of human derivation and logic?
I know for sure this:
The Father is God, Jesus is God, The Holy Spirit is God. Simple. The scriptures are unequivocally clear on this. . .even the OT is unambiguous about it:
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.(Isa 9:6)

frosbel:
So Jesus Christ was not a MAN , even though he is referred to all over the bible as , Son of MAN, the Man Jesus, Last Adam , the Man Jesus Christ etc.

So my question to you Frosbel is this: Is Jesus Christ God come in the flesh or not?

Ihedinobi:
Frosbel, alatheia's words are mine. He'll take care of you.

aletheia:
Like you, Muslims, Buddhists, secularists, atheists know that Jesus is/was a Man. Do you really think that is what is in contention here?

Where they baulk like you is in this: Jesus is God made flesh and blood. You have written much on this thread and yet gone to great lengths to avoid giving a direct answer to this direct question.


Now the answer to this question does not require an essay. Kindly move the conversation on by providing us an answer.

frosbel:

You are one funny generous chap.

Your Pope brother aletheia is yet to respond to my earlier posts , and you have not even scratched the surface of been so kind as not to lecture me on the about 6 verses of scripture I quoted , asking for your explanation

As a Sister misled and untaught lady said :

'Yet so many people cling tenaciously to the Trinity and defend it with such a defensive, pit-bull attitude. I can't help wondering why. Why is this such a big deal to them, despite their doubts, despite the inability to completely understand or explain this doctrine that has so many issues with Scripture? Why do they want to believe in it? Because most want to continue believing in this, despite nagging doubts or unanswered questions that nibble on their consciences, if they allow it.'

You guys should all be Ccatholics , that The New and Heavenly Jerusalem is truly your mMother church !

Ihedinobi:

Now, that's more like it.

frosbel:

And you have not responded to my questions.

Keep holding on to catholic doctrines.

Tell me.

Me = 1
Wife = 1
Son = 1

Me + Wife + Son = 1 , no ?

NEVER MIND THAT NEITHER I NOR MY WIFE NOT EVEN MY SON IS GOD OR IS COMPARABLE TO GOD AT ALL.

frosbel: So if Christ is a MAN how then can he be a spirit.

Even after he rose from the dead, he had a glorified physical body , not a spirit body , right ?

Common pal, help me here.

"When therefore it was evening, on that day, the first day of the week, and when the doors were shut where the disciples were, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in their midst, and said to them, "Peace be with you." 20 And when He had said this, He showed them both His hands and His side. The disciples therefore rejoiced when they saw the Lord," (John 20:19-20).

"And He said to them, "Why are you troubled, and why do doubts arise in your hearts? 39 "See My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself; touch Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have," (Luke 24:38-39).

It is obvious that Jesus was raised in the same body in which He died, with the same holes in His hands and feet. We see that Jesus proclaimed He had flesh and bones. Does a "spirit body" consist of flesh and bones? Not at all.

I have heard it said that Jesus physical body died but His spiritual body was raised. If this is so, then does the spiritual body consist of flesh and bones as well as the physical one? It makes no sense. But of course, it doesn't have to, I'm just too dumb to realize that. Also, if Jesus did not rise physically, then what happened to His body? Was it dissolved? Was it moved somewhere? There is no biblical account of what happened to Jesus' body other than that it was raised from the dead. Therefore, His body was raised from the dead.- Source

Who are we to believe, Pope aletheia or the bible

The bible says the last Adam rose with a physical body as MAN , but aletheia says he is a spirit Never mind that the Bible indeed says that Jesus is a life-giving Spirit. I don't like that part of Corinthians

Ihedinobi:

This is strange.

So Jesus Christ was not a MAN , even though he is referred to all over the bible as , Son of MAN, the Man Jesus, Last Adam , the Man Jesus Christ etc.

"For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the man, Jesus Christ.- Romans 5:17

"Men of Israel, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know.- Acts 2:22

"This man was handed over to you by God's set purpose and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men, put him to death by nailing him to the cross." - Acts 2:23

Besides , why didn't Peter or Paul say , 'this God who was handed over to you' AND 'righteousness reign in life through GOD' ?

It's almost like saying that Jesus Christ had to become a Spirit to sacrifice for our sins

Jesus Christ was fully 100& MAN otherwise how could he have fulfilled the promise of our salvation.

He is a life giving Spirit, because GOD grants eternal life to all those who will believe in HIM , through his Spirit.

"Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him." - John 3:36

To suggest that Jesus had the nature of a spirit to be the perfect sacrifice for MAN is bewildering.

"Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have." - Luke 24:39


Again it is the Spirit of GOD that quickens by our confession of faith in Christ Jesus.

"And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you. " - Romans 8:11