1. Words that are not in the Bible may not be used as the basis for explaining central doctrinal beliefs.

2. Using mathematics to describe concepts that when stated clearly defy the laws of mathematics is not allowed.

3. A belief or doctrine may not contain within itself ideas that contradict each other.

4. The word “fully” should be used only in the sense of “100%,” or “completely.” Any other usage of the word defies the English language. Using the word in the first place means the person accepts the standards of English, and it is not allowed that they later defy them.

5. Words may not be created to describe biblical ideas; the Bible provides the words and the ideas.

6. A belief may not be claimed to be so obvious that it is not even mentioned in the Bible, then said to be a central tenet of faith.

7. Defense of a belief should not be based on a verse that is only translated as a defense in a certain version of the Bible. The verse should also not be used if it is shown to be an addition by later writers to the original text.

8. A belief must not be formed through a filter of “the necessity of mystery.” God did not reveal the Word that people should be confused.

9. A belief may not be expounded solely from one book or area of the Bible while the rest offers it no support. Context means the entire Bible, not just the passage of interest.

10. A belief should answer more questions than it raises, biblically speaking.

11. A belief should be congruent with the Old Testament and the New Testament.

12. People should understand what they state as their belief; a book or another person is not a valid “understanding” of what a person believes.

13. Evangelism should not hide the true nature of the belief that is expressed. A person should come to salvation based on a full understanding of what the evangelizer is saying. A person is not to be brought to salvation by one standard, then later shown a more “complete” understanding that is claimed to be essential.

Mr_Anony: ^^^So frosbel, who is Jesus Christ?

Delafruita: a creation of the romans

frosbel: Let me quote Peter and Nathaniel, since I am in total agreement with their statements.

Peter Declares That Jesus Is the Messiah

13 When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, “Who do people say the Son of Man is?”

14 They replied, “Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”

15 “But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?”

16 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.”

17 Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven - Matthew 16:13-18


New International Version (©1984)
Then Nathanael declared, "Rabbi, you are the Son of God; you are the King of Israel." - John 1:49

Mr_Anony:

Thanks, we agree that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. Would you mind telling us when the Son of God began to exist?

frosbel:

Sorry for the late reply , was rather late in the night.

Anyway my answer to your questions is :

Jesus Christ our LORD began to exist as a being , once the process of conceiving was initiated by the Power/Spirit of GOD.

Mr_Anony:
Lol, I noticed your subtle wordplay there.
The question was: When?

Please show by using a verse of the scripture when the Son of God (a.k.a. The Word) originated. Not when He "began to exist as"

frosbel:

Can I provide you with just 3 refs ? okay , here goes ;

Matthew 1:18 This is how the birth of Jesus Christ came about: His mother Mary was pledged to be married to Joseph, but before they came together, she was found to be with child through the Holy Spirit.

Psalm 139:10 For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb.

Luke 1:35 The angel answered, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God.

Goshen360: We are waiting for Frosbel, because am getting ready to start another thread with him this week BUT I will wait to see how this one goes. FROSBEL..........Where art thou

truthislight:

the question is if JESUS HAD EXISTED BEFOR COMING TO EARTH I THINK.

WE SHOULD ENSURE TO STATE THE TRUTH.

IF YOU HAVE EVIDENCE THAT JESUS HAS NEVER EXISTED IN HEAVEN BEFOR COMING TO EARTH SHOW IT AND LET US LEARN.

frosbel:

If you had read my previous post you might have understood my point.

Jesus Christ is NOT Angel Michael and therefore existed from time of Birth.

He came as a full MAN , the WORD of GOD incarnated in the flesh and as John says revealed the Son of GOD.

v14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

frosbel:

Can I provide you with just 3 refs ? okay , here goes ;

Matthew 1:18 This is how the birth of Jesus Christ came about: His mother Mary was pledged to be married to Joseph, but before they came together, she was found to be with child through the Holy Spirit.

Psalm 139:10 For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb.

Luke 1:35 The angel answered, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God.

Mr_Anony:
Lol, I noticed your subtle wordplay there.
The question was: When?

Please show by using a verse of the scripture when the Son of God (a.k.a. The Word) originated. Not when He "began to exist as"

italo: Holy Spirit:  "He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made."

Frosbel: 'He was never with God in the beginning. Nothing was made through him; without him everything was made that has been made'

Jesus: "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End."

Frosbel: 'Jesus is NOT the Alpha and Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.'

Jesus: "Before Abraham was, I AM."

Frosbel: 'Before Abraham was, Jesus NEVER was.'

That is what anti-Catholicism does to a man.

To depart from the truth gradually but eventually leads to anarchy and lunacy and heresy.

Mr_Anony:
@Frosbel, sorry I couldn't reply earlier;

Are you saying that the Son of God (a.k.a. The Word) did not exist until He was conceived in Mary's womb?

Are you saying that Jesus Christ did not come from Heaven but only began to exist about 2000 years ago when He was born?

[size=9pt]@frosbel; one more thing, please for purposes of this debate, we will only use one translation of the bible which you will choose. This is so that we don't mock God's word by pitting translations against each other. I believe that you hold that the bible is the inerrant word of God and it will be our final authority.

italo: Holy Spirit:  "He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made."

Frosbel: 'He was never with God in the beginning. Nothing was made through him; without him everything was made that has been made'


Jesus: "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End."

Frosbel: 'Jesus is NOT the Alpha and Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.'


Jesus: "Before Abraham was, I AM."

Frosbel: 'Before Abraham was, Jesus NEVER was.'

italo: @ Frosbel,

Not to worry, everyone can clearly see who is the habitual liar, forger and antichrist.

*smiles*

Meanwhile continue wrestling with the Holy Spirit:

frosbel:
I was in that church for many years and it almost destroyed me, SATAN himself owns the vatican , google it

italo: Holy Spirit:  "He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made."

Frosbel: 'He was never with God in the beginning. Nothing was made through him; without him everything was made that has been made'


Jesus: "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End."

Frosbel: 'Jesus is NOT the Alpha and Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.'


Jesus: "Before Abraham was, I AM."

Frosbel: 'Before Abraham was, Jesus NEVER was.'

italo: Holy Spirit:  "He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made."

Frosbel: 'He was never with God in the beginning. Nothing was made through him; without him everything was made that has been made'

Jesus: "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End."

Frosbel: 'Jesus is NOT the Alpha and Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.'

Jesus: "Before Abraham was, I AM."

Frosbel: 'Before Abraham was, Jesus NEVER was.'

That is what anti-Catholicism does to a man.

To depart from the truth gradually but eventually leads to anarchy and lunacy and heresy.

frosbel:

God's WORD which became flesh was in the beginning with GOD , no ?

Also God's wisdom which is a SHE was also with GOD at the beginning , no ?

Okay , let me give you an example .


Blessed are those who find wisdom,
those who gain understanding,
14 for she is more profitable than silver
and yields better returns than gold.
15 She is more precious than rubies;
nothing you desire can compare with her
......
19 By wisdom the Lord laid the earth’s foundations,
by understanding he set the heavens in place;
20 by his knowledge the watery depths were divided,
and the clouds let drop the dew - Proverbs 3


If we use your logic to analyse the scripture above :

1. We will call wisdom a divine being
2. And refer to her as a She

Which means , she must have pre-existed with God and helped him with creation , no ?

Mate , if you cannot perform a thorough bible study on your own, no one can help you.

Relying on church tradition till condemn you to HELL.



And so was WISDOM, God made everything through HER , no ?



And how does ALPHA and OMEGA make one GOD.

What about 'firstborn from the dead' or 'the beginning of the creation of GOD' , should we overlook these terms used to describe Jesus.

What about Jesus calling GOD his GOD , should we just skip over this and render it's meaning irrelevant.

The Catholic church is a habitual LIAR , forger and possesses the spirit of the antiChrist , that has an immense disdain for everything relating to GOD.





Again, the result of poor study.

In Hebrew culture, to say that you are before someone means that you are greater than them , and even if we take this literally , was it not GOD who was speaking through Christ Jesus, was God not one with his SON through HIS Spirit.

I don't speak on my own authority. The Father who sent me has commanded me what to say and how to say it - John 12:49



Should we then throw away half of the bible that says GOD is ONE , just to please the PAGAN catholic church.

I say God forbid.




I am anti-catholic till death




You mean truths , like praying with a Pagan rosary , chanting to dead saints, a gibberish of a mass, sun worship and all that pagan stuff.

No Sir.

Let me remain a heretic.

Jesus is LORD, GOD is ONE and the Catholic Church is the HARLOT Church not the real one.

frosbel:

God's WORD has always existed with HIM since and before the foundation of the WORLD.

The WORD became Flesh in the form of the SON of GOD and was manifested to the WORLD.

Let us see how John puts it.

v14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

The Origin of Christ is from Heaven, indeed this WORD before becoming flesh was with GOD at the very beginning, without this WORD, nothing was made that has been made .

RSV and the NIV should suffice.

Mr_Anony:
Ok good, so you agree that the Word was with God from the beginning. In other words, it is the same person, all that happened was that He took on another form i.e. the form of a man.
So I am right in saying that the Son (also known as the Word) has been existing from the begining.

Now my question to you is: Do you agree that the Word is eternal (i.e. has neither beginning nor end)?

If you agree that the Word exists eternally, then my next question would be: doesn't this mean that the Word is God? (remember that God by definition is the One who is from everlasting to everlasting)

If you disagree that the Word is eternal, then you will have to show us from scripture where God created the Word (i.e where the Word came into existence) or where the scripture hints that the Word can be destroyed (or cease to exist).

Enigma: @ Mr Anony

Sorry for butting in (and hope I do not derail the discussion) but the following questions are "asking to be asked" following our friend's posts!

God's "Word" is "Word in the actual sense"!

God's "Word" became flesh ---- in Jesus, as I understand our friend.

OK then:

When God's "Word" had become flesh in Jesus, did God have any other "Word" or "Words"?

During Jesus' baptism (when jesus was already God's "Word" in the flesh) God was heard saying "words" "This is my beloved Son etc": are this "words" of God "words in the actual sense"? Are these God's "words" different from God's "Word"?

If God's "Word" had already become flesh, how and where did God then find another "word" or other "words" to speak afterwards?

frosbel:

God's WORD which he used to create the world has always been with him as his WORD , not a being.

Indeed as GOD is eternal with neither beginning nor end , so is his WORD.

I am assuming by WORD you mean WORD in the actual sense, in which case I concur.

God's WORD is eternal.