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The 5 versions of the Arabic Koran - Islam for Muslims (2) - Nairaland

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Re: The 5 versions of the Arabic Koran by pilgrim1(f): 12:23pm On Jan 23, 2008
@luvus,

luvus:

@all muslim please lets read this again and evaluate it.

That is the very thing that we have been asking Muslims to do - carefully evaluate the arguments they make (which is based merely on versions, editions and translations); and then gather their consciences together as to WHY they often try to attack the Bible on such ideas without looking at the same things about the Qur'an!

This is why those who ae often in the business of such hypocritical adventures need to carefully consider this question you asked:

luvus:

@babs

finally, please i want to request just one answer do you acept that there are many versions, translations of the Quran?

. . . which was what +osisi has highlighted in her post earlier:

+osisi:

So babs and co,next time you want to talk of versions of the Bible think of these Koran editions and revisions.

The thing is this: WHY attack the Bible based merely on[b] versions[/b] and translations?

WHY even attack the Bible at all - when it is clear that there are numerous VERSIONS and TRANSLATIONS of the Qur'an as well (which when compared together, these verses and translations of the Qur'an are clearly saying DIFFERENT things)?!?

This attitude of Muslims attacking the Biblical scriptures does not redeem the hypocrisy of Islam and Muslims - the same Muslims who cannot take care of the fact that Muhammad denied the truth about God being always known as FATHER (evidenced in revelations of the Biblical prophets).
Re: The 5 versions of the Arabic Koran by ibro17(m): 12:41pm On Jan 23, 2008
Sorry for not having correct information about islam.there is a difference between Qur'an and Hadith(sayings of the prophet).
What you have above is a hadith not Qur'an.
Qur'an is one,no dispute about that.
Seek for knowledge before posting anything religous on this site please.
U can even seek for clearification on any issue.U equally need to come with facts like verse number(ayat) and chapter(Surah).
Please let take it cool as God is One and indivisible.And He is for all of us,both christian and muslim.we should learn about ourself,this is Education and Enlightement,so that we can have proper orientation about ourselves.
thank you.
Re: The 5 versions of the Arabic Koran by pilgrim1(f): 12:53pm On Jan 23, 2008
@ibro17,

ibro17:

Sorry for not having correct information about islam.

It's alright if that was an apology for Muslims who do not have "correct" information about Islam.

ibro17:

there is a difference between Qur'an and Hadith(sayings of the prophet).

Nobody so far has tried to make them the same; infact, Muslims on this Forum have told us that the Qur'an must be understood from the Hadiths - and what the poster quoted are SAHIH hadiths (e.g., Sahih Bukari); that is, hadiths which are regarded as AUTHENTIC.

See here and here where SAHIH Bukhari were quoted.

ibro17:

What you have above is a hadith not Qur'an.

She didn't confuse them either.

ibro17:

Qur'an is one,no dispute about that.

Then Muslims should desist from disputing the Bible.

ibro17:

Seek for knowledge before posting anything religous on this site please.

We should rather be asking your Muslim brethren to take that advice to heart.

ibro17:

You can even seek for clearification on any issue.You equally need to come with facts like verse number(ayat) and chapter(Surah).

Can you dispute the FACTS of the references that have already been posted? Why are you guys suddenly and frantically abandoning your own SAHIH hadiths?

ibro17:

Please let take it cool as God is One and indivisible.

God is FATHER. Where did Muhammad acknowledge that FACT?

ibro17:

And He is for all of us,both christian and muslim.

If Muhammad truly believed in that excuse, would he have cursed Christians and Jews till his last breath?

ibro17:

we should learn about ourself,this is Education and Enlightement,

The reason why people are debunking the Muslim hypocrisy here is because everyone is fed up with their hypocrisy. The more people are enlightened about this issues, the better for us us.

ibro17:

so that we can have proper orientation about ourselves.

If you believe in proper orientation, you would need to acknowledge that Muhammad denied the revelations of the Biblical prophets.
Re: The 5 versions of the Arabic Koran by luvus: 1:27pm On Jan 23, 2008
thanks and God bless, my faith in Jesus is emboldenened
Re: The 5 versions of the Arabic Koran by Nobody: 3:35pm On Jan 23, 2008
@poster

The basis of the acclaimed "5" versions of the Koran is incorrect and fallacious.

You actually know but pretend that you don't understand things.

We have asked Muslims who often deliberately enjoy attacking the Bible on the argument of versions, editions and translations to apply that same rule to the Qur'an. You will not see them do so any one time!

hmm, you amuse me

Isn't there a difference between translational error and outright distortion of a word to give the opposite of what it earlier meant.


Like a whole verse or chapter is missing in a version and in another it's existent.


A version says its 3000 another version of the same verse says it 50,000.
Re: The 5 versions of the Arabic Koran by pilgrim1(f): 4:06pm On Jan 23, 2008
@mdsocks,

mdsocks:

@poster

The basis of the acclaimed "5" versions of the Koran is incorrect and fallacious.

They are not "incorrect and fallacious" - unless you're hoping that this will just be wished away as such.

mdsocks:

You actually know but pretend that you don't understand things.

Why is it that when Muslim claims are being scrutinized, this tersely weak exculpations are all we ever read from you folks? grin

mdsocks:

hmm, you amuse me

What's amusing you?

mdsocks:

Isn't there a difference between translational error and outright distortion of a word to give the opposite of what it earlier meant.

I'm glad you pointed tha out - and yes, there is a huge difference between the two. Which is why I have asked you and our dear Muslim friends to get done with the hypocrisy of trying to attack the message of the Bible based on TRANSLATIONS - unless you are saying that it is alright to apply the same rule in examining the claims of the Qur'an.

Is it fair - in your estimation - to argue a point based on mere "translations" of any book?

If you'd assume that it is unfair to do so, then WHY do Muslims constantly use that same hat-trick every single time?

mdsocks:

Like a whole verse or chapter is missing in a version and in another it's existent.

Which again we have seen happen in the case of the Qur'an as well - turn to the previous page and click on those links on Dr. Rashad Khalifa as an example.

mdsocks:

A version says its 3000 another version of the same verse says it 50,000.

Yep - just like when one version of the[b] Qur'an[/b] is claiming the singular of something and another is claiming the plural of the same thing in the same verse! Example? Here:

Sura 114 v 4:

Hilali-Khan (singular)
"From the evil of the whisperer (devil who whispers evil in the hearts of men)
who withdraws  (from his whispering in one's heart after one remembers Allah)"

M. M. Pickthall (singular)
"From the evil of the sneaking whisperer"

Rashad Khalifa (plural)
"From the evils of sneaky whisperers.

S. M. Sarwar (plural)
"against the evil of the temptations of the satans,"

M H Shakir (singular)
"From the evil of the whisperings of the slinking (Shaitan),"

Yusuf Ali (singular)
"From the mischief of the Whisperer (of Evil),
who withdraws (after his whisper),"

Are you aware that as far as VERSIONS and TRANSLATIONS go, the Qur'an is riddled with that many inconsistencies? WHY then would Muslims seek to attack the bible based on mere translations but cannot endure the Qur'an being examined by the same rule?
Re: The 5 versions of the Arabic Koran by olabowale(m): 6:17pm On Jan 23, 2008
@Luvus: Not so fast, man. But you claim, as a Christian is God, right? So check the below out and tell me if Jesus was the God being refered to here, in the two quotes from the Bible. I still have more, but I am testing your embolden faith right now and before long it would not be so emboldened.

Exodus 32:1 (Whole Chapter)
[ The Golden Calf ] When the people saw that Moses was so long in coming down from the mountain, they gathered around Aaron and said, "Come, make us gods [ Or a god ; also in verses 23 and 31 ] who will go before us. As for this fellow Moses who brought us up out of Egypt, we don't know what has happened to him."


Deuteronomy 9:7 (Whole Chapter)
[ The Golden Calf ] Remember this and never forget how you provoked the LORD your God to anger in the desert. From the day you left Egypt until you arrived here, you have been rebellious against the LORD.
Where is Jesus here; the Lord or the God, or both or neither? You have your work cut out for ya!

Answer, because, ain't got all day; Jesus is not either Lord nor God in both verses! If then you guys then magically brought jesus up later as god or Lord, it must have been unreal and it may just be only in title, but not in subsatnce. Like monopoly money, it looks good, but can spend it. Its even worse than Ijebu money!

And for those who are confusing English translation for simple reading, to Qur'an which is PURE ARABIC, you do not know anything about Islam! You are trying to co-mingle Islam with your religion. It just would not work. Qur'an is in PURE Arabic! Yet the Arabs themselves have to learn it, before they can understand it.

Unlike your Injiil, which was revealed, am sorry, inspired, in Hebrew or Aramaic, yet none of you have seen a single one of it, in its originally inspired in language! And the most ancient manuscript that you have been carrying around to show that your Injiil is authentic, can only go so far at least 300 years after the inspirational writing,from the many writers, who we even see their personal opinions in your 'Pure Injiil!'
Re: The 5 versions of the Arabic Koran by olabowale(m): 6:40pm On Jan 23, 2008
And by the way, in Nigeria, alone, there are now Qur'an translations, into the many of the national languages. Let just take ten as the number of the languages, presently. Yet when any of the people from any of the local languages is going to recite the Qur'an, say an Igbo man, example Alhaji Isa Okeke, of Enugu, he does not recite it in Igbo, but in PURE ARABIC! (By the way the name belongs to a real person, in exactly where I mentioned, in Igbo land). Can you christians in good conscience compare this incidental scenerio, above about this Muslim Ibo man, to any Ibo Christian who will use Igbo language Bible/Injiil for his sunday or whenever worship?

So the translations that you are talking about of Qur'an simply serves as understanding tool, to the persons who reads it in his/her local language, be it English of America, Canada or British, or any othe languages, including my beloved YORUBA! Aji se bi YORUBA lanri, YORUBA on ji se bi eni kon!

But I am a MUSLIM first, before I am a YORUBA. My Soul submits to Allah, before any getting together of my folks! That is the absolute truth. And I take it to the bank, all day long.
Re: The 5 versions of the Arabic Koran by pilgrim1(f): 6:50pm On Jan 23, 2008
@olabowale,

olabowale:

@Luvus: Not so fast, man. But you claim, as a Christian is God, right? So check the below out and tell me if Jesus was the God being refered to here, in the two quotes from the Bible. I still have more, but I am testing your embolden faith right now and before long it would not be so emboldened.

Exodus 32:1 (Whole Chapter)
[ The Golden Calf ] When the people saw that Moses was so long in coming down from the mountain, they gathered around Aaron and said, "Come, make us gods [ Or a god ; also in verses 23 and 31 ] who will go before us. As for this fellow Moses who brought us up out of Egypt, we don't know what has happened to him."


Deuteronomy 9:7 (Whole Chapter)
[ The Golden Calf ] Remember this and never forget how you provoked the LORD your God to anger in the desert. From the day you left Egypt until you arrived here, you have been rebellious against the LORD.


Where is Jesus here; the Lord or the God, or both or neither? You have your work cut out for ya!

Where is ALLAH in those verses, olabowale?

The issue here is quite simple: the very same rule of thumb you devise for deriding the Bible should be applied in examining your own claims for the Qur'an.

olabowale:

Answer, because, ain't got all day; Jesus is not either Lord nor God in both verses!

One doesn't need all day to understand that ALLH does not appear in both verses, nor in any verses of the Bible. Since your own version of torah and injil are lost, go look for them.

olabowale:

If then you guys then magically brought jesus up later as god or Lord, it must have been unreal and it may just be only in title, but not in subsatnce.

Christians did not magically bring up Jesus as deity - the OT prophets all knew that the Messiah is deity Himself. I have been asking this same questions to Muslims for eons: what did you guys do with the prophets Isaiah and Zechariah?

olabowale:

Like monopoly money, it looks good, but can spend it. Its even worse than Ijebu money!

And the Qur'an is supposed to be the "monopoly and Ijebu" money, abi? grin

olabowale:

And for those who are confusing English translation for simple reading, to Qur'an which is PURE ARABIC, you do not know anything about Islam!

Keep screaming your guts like a lost child. Address them boldly and clearly. Who are "those who are confusing English translation"? How many times have Muslims been confusing the translations of the Bible and using that same otiose argument to attack the Bible?

You did not remember the "translations" of the Qur'an before you guys have used the Bible translations for your arguments. Such hypocrisy.

olabowale:

You are trying to co-mingle Islam with your religion.

Don't let me laugh! grin Islam is a dead religion without the Bible. QED. Nobody is mingling Islam and Judaism to arrive at anything you suggest - nor even Islam + Christianity resulting in "Chrislam".

olabowale:

It just would not work.

It has never worked - even when you and your chaps tried to smuggle Muhammad into the Bible from Deuteronomy to John's Gospel.

olabowale:

Qur'an is in PURE Arabic!

And what happened to the Kufi and Quraish? Are you so desperately sweating to confuse which is which?

olabowale:

Yet the Arabs themselves have to learn it, before they can understand it.

Yea - it is the same Arabs that the Qur'an accuses of being the worst in unbelief and ignorance - because they have to learn their language again after Muhammad gave them his Qur'an. Please put on your thinking cap.

olabowale:

Unlike your Injiil, which was revealed, am sorry, inspired, in Hebrew or Aramaic, yet none of you have seen a single one of it, in its originally inspired in language!

Too bad that your own Injil is said to be lost - and yet 'Allah' asked you to belief in what Muslims say is lost.

olabowale:

And the most ancient manuscript that you have been carrying around to show that your Injiil is authentic, can only go so far at least 300 years after the inspirational writing,from the many writers, who we even see their personal opinions in your 'Pure Injiil!'

The message down through the ages has not changed. Yet, what is te dating of the oldest Qura'n manuscript? Go find out. (Hint: there is no extant copy known today to be from Muhammad's day). Sample this:

[list]The Sana'a manuscripts—found in Yemen in 1972—represent the oldest extent version of the Quran, dated to the latter half of the 7th century. In it are textual variations from the standard Quran that is presently read throughout the world. . . . >> [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sana%27a_manuscripts]read more here[/url][/list]

Enjoy.
Re: The 5 versions of the Arabic Koran by pahtahkee: 7:05pm On Jan 23, 2008
Pilgrim.1 and +osisi, you have practically finished the whole topic!


God Bless you both.

1 Like 1 Share

Re: The 5 versions of the Arabic Koran by pilgrim1(f): 7:07pm On Jan 23, 2008
@olabowale,

olabowale:

And by the way, in Nigeria, alone, there are now Qur'an translations, into the many of the national languages. Let just take ten as the number of the languages, presently. Yet when any of the people from any of the local languages is going to recite the Qur'an, say an Igbo man, example Alhaji Isa Okeke, of Enugu, he does not recite it in Igbo, but in PURE ARABIC!

I'm sorry for you. The Bible has been translated into over 2,000 (two thousand) languages:

[list] The United Bible Societies is currently involved
with close to 600 translation projects covering
nearly 500 languages.

. . . .

Over five centuries ago, Johann Gutenberg issued
the first book printed from moveable type – a beautifully
executed folio-size Latin Bible. Since that time,
complete books of the Bible have been produced by
various agencies, and there are now over 2,370 languages
in which at least one book of the Bible has been published.

. . . .

At the start of the nineteenth century, Scriptures were
available in just 68 languages. Today, Scriptures are available
in no less than 2,403 languages
, with the complete Bible having
been translated into at least 426 languages, and the New
Testament into some 1,115. In addition, parts of the Bible
(Portions) have been made available in a further 862 languages.

. . . . >> read more.[/list]


Wycliffe Bible Translators Forms Vision 2025

Although translation work among Wycliffe Bible Translators
has been progressing faster than ever (more than 2,200 languages
have at least some of the Bible in their language), at least three
thousand languages still need the good news translated into
their heart language.

Members of thirty-two minority language groups worldwide received
God’s word in their own heart languages for the first time in 2006
thanks to a long-standing partnership between Bible League and
Wycliffe Bible Translators.

. . . >> read more.

There are several more.

Meanwhile, these people do not have to first learn Hebrew, Aramaic, Quraish, Kufi, or Greek before they can understand the Love of God in Jesus Christ for them. grin


olabowale:

(By the way the name belongs to a real person, in exactly where I mentioned, in Igbo land).

That does not add credence to your arguments. grin

olabowale:

Can you christians in good conscience compare this incidental scenerio, above about this Muslim Ibo man, to any Ibo Christian who will use Igbo language Bible/Injiil for his sunday or whenever worship?

Yep - we have done that comparison before. Did Muhammad not refer to David as the BEST WORSHIPPER, with the BEST PRAYER and the BEST FASTING? And for all of that, David did not one day speak Quraish, Kufi or Arabic. Go figure, dear bros. grin

olabowale:

So the translations that you are talking about of Qur'an simply serves as understanding tool, to the persons who reads it in his/her local language, be it English of America, Canada or British, or any othe languages, including my beloved YORUBA! Aji se bi YORUBA lanri, YORUBA on ji se bi eni kon!

We hear - it has now become a "tool". That is after your brethren have shamelessly and cowardly used the translations for their weak arguments and you can no longer effectively embrace the "translations" of the Qur'an. Well done. cheesy

olabowale:

But I am a MUSLIM first, before I am a YORUBA.

Wayo. You were born a Yoruba first before you came to embrace Islam. grin

olabowale:

My Soul submits to Allah, before any getting together of my folks! That is the absolute truth. And I take it to the bank, all day long.

When you go to the bank, scratch your head again about the translations of the Qur'an.

Cheers.
Re: The 5 versions of the Arabic Koran by pilgrim1(f): 7:12pm On Jan 23, 2008
pahtahkee:

Pilgrim.1 and +osisi, you have practically finished the whole topic!


God Bless you both.

God bless you many times over o jare. grin

1 Like

Re: The 5 versions of the Arabic Koran by osisi5: 7:31pm On Jan 23, 2008
Pilgrim,I hope to be in London sometime this year all things being equal.
I hope to see you face to face otherwise,I'll be looking for you in heaven.
I believe God called you to himself for many reasons and this is one of them.
Your writings on this forum have been so educational and I'm glad many are reading it.

It's been proven that everything about Islam is basically lies upon lies
Thank God for the internet people can read the lies and fabrications for themselves.
How can a book and it's readers claim there's been no revisions despite overwhelming evidence of such ?

If Muslims judge the Bible by the different Bible translations and editions,they should be willing to put the Koran under the same exact scrutiny.
There's no point repeating obvious lies fabricated by some Imams in the face of overwhelming counter evidence.
Thank God for the internet.
who no no go no
Re: The 5 versions of the Arabic Koran by ismailys: 7:33pm On Jan 23, 2008
@pilgrim
i have read the article on wikipedia , and i think you should wait till they publish their
findings instead of predetermining their conclusion.

if at the end of the day lets say there is a slight variation from the conventional quran( in ur dreams) im sure u will be jumping up and down in excitement .

anyway till then,
Re: The 5 versions of the Arabic Koran by osisi5: 7:37pm On Jan 23, 2008
ismailys:

@pilgrim
i have read the article on wikipedia , and i think you should wait till they publish their
findings instead of predetermining their conclusion.

if at the end of the day lets say there is a slight variation from the conventional quran( in your dreams) im sure u will be jumping up and down in excitement .

anyway till then,




Have you bothered reading the thread and it's overwhelming evidence ?
You don't need to wait for wiki wiki
just read all the links provided here
Re: The 5 versions of the Arabic Koran by babs787(m): 7:38pm On Jan 23, 2008
@babyosis


heard Hisham bin Hakim reciting Surat Al-Furqan during the lifetime of Allah's Apostle and I listen to his recitation and noticed that he recited in several different ways which Allah's Apostle had not taught me. I was about to jump over him during his prayer, but I controlled my temper and when he had completed his prayer, I put his upper garment around his neck and seized him by it and said, "Who taught you this Surat which I heard you reciting ?" He replied, "Allah's Apostle taught it to me". I said, "You have told a lie, for Allah's Apostle taught it to me in a different way from yours". So I dragged him to Allah's Apostle and said, "I heard this person reciting Surat Al-Furqan in a way which you haven't taught me!". On that Allah's Apostle said, "Release him (Umar) recite, O Hisham!" Then he recited in the same way I heard him reciting. Then Allah's Apostle said, "It was revealed in this way", and added, "Recite, O Umar", I recited it as he had taught me. Allah's Apostle then said, "It was revealed in this way. This Qur'an has been revealed to be recited in seven different ways, so recite of it whichever is easier for you."

Bukhuri: vol. 4, hadith 682, book 56

Narrated Ibn Mas'ud:

I heard a person reciting a (Quranic) Verse in a certain way, and I had heard the Prophet reciting the same Verse in a different way. So I took him to the Prophet and informed him of that but I noticed the sign of disapproval on his face, and then he said, "Both of you are correct, so don't differ, for the nations before you differed, so they were destroyed."
The above hadiths clearly shows that Muhammad allowed some variation regarding the reciting of the Qur'an.

Now don't tell us recitation means just prononciations,we have heard that altaquiyyah before


Now please what do you understand by the word 'recitation' and when you do, we shall look at different ways Quran can be recited as practised by different Islamic societies
Re: The 5 versions of the Arabic Koran by babs787(m): 7:44pm On Jan 23, 2008
@babyosis



Bukhari: vol. 6, hadith 468, p. 441-442; book 60

Narrated Ibrahim:

The companions of 'Abdullah (bin Mas'ud) came to Abi Darda', (and before they arrived at his home), he looked for them and found them. Then he asked them,: "Who among you can recite (Qur'an) as 'Abdullah recites it?" They replied, "All of us." He asked, "Who among you knows it by heart?" They pointed at 'Alqama. Then he asked Alqama. "How did you hear 'Abdullah bin Mas'ud reciting Surat Al-Lail (The Night)?" Alqama recited:

'By the male and the female.' Abu Ad-Darda said,

"I testify that I heard me Prophet reciting it likewise,
but these people want me to recite it:--

'And by Him Who created male and female.' But by Allah, I will not follow them."


The above hadith shows that Muslims from different regions disagreed as to the way a particular verse should be read. Those who learnt the Qur'an from 'Abdullah bin Mas'ud said surah 92:1-3 as 'By the male and the female.' while other Muslims said, 'And by Him Who created male and female.' Thus the early Muslims had not all memorized the Qur'an the same way.


Your ignorance or should I say mischief is becoming something else that need attention. The above hadith in which you quoted showed the way Prophet Muhammad recited it and how the people wanted it to be recited and please can you present the particular Surah in question from different translators and we view the meaning together?
Re: The 5 versions of the Arabic Koran by pahtahkee: 7:47pm On Jan 23, 2008
babs787:


Now please what do you understand by the word 'recitation' and when you do, we shall look at different ways Quran can be recited as practised by different Islamic societies

Recitation:
[list]
[li]a reciting or repeating of something from memory, esp. formally or publicly.[/li]
[li]oral response by a pupil or pupils to a teacher on a prepared lesson.[/li]
[li]a period of classroom instruction.[/li]
[li]an elocutionary delivery of a piece of poetry or prose, without the text, before an audience.[/li]
[li]a piece so delivered or for such delivery.[/li]
[/list]
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/recitation

So babs, given the definition of recitation above, what exactly is your point?
Re: The 5 versions of the Arabic Koran by pilgrim1(f): 7:50pm On Jan 23, 2008
@ismailys,

ismailys:

@pilgrim
i have read the article on wikipedia , and i think you should wait till they publish their
findings instead of predetermining their conclusion.

Excuse me, dear ismailys. . . the investigators themselves HAVE published some of their findings - otherwise they would not have stated that "In it are textual variations from the standard Quran that is presently read throughout the world".

I have only waited to see what Muslim apologists have had to say on the research works of people like Gerd R Puin. It is a notorious idea being circulated in the Muslim world that Puin has not made any publications. One of the Muslims who emailed me and ranted so much about this received this simple reply from me:

    Please go and read:

Die dunklen Anfange. Neue Forschungen zur Entstehung und fruhen
Geschichte des Islam
("The dark beginnings: new research on the origin and early history of Islam,"
Hans Schiller Verlag, 2005)

   That is one of Gerd R Puin published works on this issue. When you are done,
   come back and let's talk.

That was 3 months ago. I sent him several reminders forthnightly - I never heard from him.

Do you care to go read the same thing as well? Then come back and let's talk. smiley


ismailys:

if at the end of the day lets say there is a slight variation from the conventional quran( in your dreams) im sure u will be jumping up and down in excitement .

I'm not that gullible to fulfill your dreams. It is because Muslims are fond of never actually researching, that is why they can celebrate their illiterate rants. My one concern here was to apply the same worries of "translations and versions" to the Qur'an that Muslims have used to attack the Bible.

ismailys:
anyway till then,

    Please go and read:

Die dunklen Anfange. Neue Forschungen zur Entstehung und fruhen
Geschichte des Islam
("The dark beginnings: new research on the origin and early history of Islam,"
Hans Schiller Verlag, 2005)

It is also available in English - then we shall read from you. What you are looking for is there.

Cheers.
Re: The 5 versions of the Arabic Koran by pilgrim1(f): 7:53pm On Jan 23, 2008
pahtahkee:

. . .

[list][li]an elocutionary delivery of a piece of poetry or prose, without the text, before an audience.[/li][/list]

So babs, given the definition of recitation above, what exactly is your point?

He has no point. The point really is that the Muslim claim that 'Allah' sent down any book to Muhammad is a fraud. There was no such "book" - it was all a recitation that Muhammad dictated as he went along.
Re: The 5 versions of the Arabic Koran by pahtahkee: 7:57pm On Jan 23, 2008
pilgrim.1:

He has no point. The point really is that the Muslim claim that 'Allah' sent down any book to Muhammad is a fraud. There was no such "book" - it was all a recitation that Muhammad dictated as he went along.

Thanks oh my sister. I have actually suffered in silence watching and reading this Babs of a person punishing simple common sense. Thinking to himself he sounds intelligent.
Re: The 5 versions of the Arabic Koran by pilgrim1(f): 8:07pm On Jan 23, 2008
@pahtahkee,

pahtahkee:

Thanks oh my sister. I have actually suffered in silence watching and reading this Babs of a person punishing simple common sense. Thinking to himself he sounds intelligent.

Lol. . . what "intelligence"? grin Ducking questions and offering excuses are not to be mistaken for "intelligence". But Muslims today are only copying the example of Muhammad who kept ducking simple questions. Sample another one of Muhammad's ducking:


[list]The Quraysh sent two men to the Jewish Rabbis of Medina, reasoning that the Rabbis had superior knowledge of the scriptures and about the prophets of God. The two Quraysh men described their tribesman, Muhammad, to the Rabbis. The Rabbis told the men to ask Muhammad three questions:


[list]"They (the rabbis) said, `Ask him about three things which we will tell you to ask, and if he answers them then he is a Prophet who has been sent (by Allah); if he does not, then he is saying things that are not true, in which case how you will deal with him will be up to you. Ask him about some young men in ancient times, what was their story? For theirs is a strange and wondrous tale. Ask him about a man who travelled a great deal and reached the east and the west of the earth. What was his story? And ask him about the Ruh (soul or spirit) -- what is it? If he tells you about these things, then he is a Prophet, so follow him, but if he does not tell you, then he is a man who is making things up, so deal with him as you see fit.'"[/list]

The famous story, in the Sira, goes that when Muhammad was informed of the three questions from the Rabbis, he declared that he would have the answers in the morning. However, Muhammad did not give the answer in the morning. For fifteen days, Muhammad did not answer the question. Doubt in Muhammad began to grow amongst the people of Mecca. Then, after fifteen days, Muhammad received the revelation that is Surah Al-Kahf ("the Cave"wink, the eighteenth chapter of the Qur'an. Surah Al-Kahf mentions the "People of the Cave," a strange story about some young men in ancient times who slept in a cave for many years. . . . >> [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_in_the_Qur'an#Dhul-Qarnayn_in_early_Islamic_literature]see it here[/url][/list]

So, when you see Muslims ducking simple questions and scooting off to buy time in a roundabout manner, they lifted that practice straight from Muhammad.
Re: The 5 versions of the Arabic Koran by babs787(m): 8:12pm On Jan 23, 2008
@babyosis



Oya first hadith


Bukhari: vol. 8, hadith 817, p. 539-540; book 82

Allah sent Muhammad with the Truth and revealed the Holy Book to him, and among what Allah revealed, was the Verse of the Rajam (the stoning of married person (male and female) who commits illegal sexual intercourse), and we did recite this Verse and understood and memorized it. Allah's Apostle did carry out the punishment of stoning and so did we after him. I am afraid that after a long time has passed, somebody will say, `By Allah, we do not find the Verse of the Rajam in Allah's Book,' and thus they will go astray by leaving an obligation which Allah has revealed.

It is obvious that `Umar was convinced that stoning an adulterer was part of the Qur'an and should not be removed. The modern Qur'an however does not contain these verses. So where have they gone? These verses must have been removed by those who were in charge of the text of the Qur'an. What is clear is that `Umar remembered these verses and did not think that they should be edited out while others obviously did, and so today they are not in the modern Qur'an.


A question for you please:

You know that there is Shariah in Islam and there is also punishment for boh adulterers and fornicators. So how come the important verse was left out and please before you can say a verse has been left out, can you present the same verse present in at least one of the Quranic Translators but missing in others just as I have been serving you verses present in some versions but missing in some?

Thank you






2nd hadith

Bukhari: vol. 6, hadith 60, p. 46; book 60

Narrated Ibn Az-Zubair:

I said to `Uthman, "This Verse which is in Surat-al-Baqara: `Those of you who die and leave wives behind,  without turning them out,' has been abrogated by an other Verse. Why then do you write it (in the Qur'an)?" `Uthman said, "Leave it (where it is), O son of my brother, for I will not shift anything of it (i.e. the Qur'an) from its original position."

Here we see that Ibn Az-Zubair and Uthman disagreed over whether or not a particular verse should be included in the Qur'an. Ibn Az-Zubair believed that the verse had been abrogated and therefore should be removed from the Qur'an, while Uthman was insistent that the verse should remain. Uthman had his way and so this verse is in the Qur'an today.



Quran 2v106: Whatever a verse (revelation) do we abrogate or cause to be forgotten. We bring a better one or similar to it. Know you not that Allah is able to do all things.


Qur'an 16 vs 101
"When We substitute one revelation for another,- and Allah knows best what He reveals (in stages),- they say, "Thou art but a forger": but most of them understand not.


What do you understand by abrogation? Please can you tell if there are no abrogation in the bible



Lets see there if there are no abrogated verses in the bible



We all understand that abrogation means to annul, to abolish etc

Jesus said:

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. (Matthew 5:17-19)


Meaning that he didnt come to make any abrogation abi.


Lets see if really the above statement is true


Abrogation Of Divorce

The best examples of Jesus abrogating parts of Old Testament law concern a number of statements recorded in the gospel according to Matthew. The most prominent of them would be the Law concerning Divorce.

In the Old Testament we find the following law concerning divorce:

If a man marries a woman who becomes displeasing to him because he finds something indecent about her, and he writes her a certificate of divorce, gives it to her and sends her from his house, and if after she leaves his house she becomes the wife of another man, (Deutronomy 24:1-2)

Now without going into the minute of this particular law of divorce, one thing becomes immediately clear. Not only is divorce permitted by God, it is legal for her to remarry.

However in the time of Jesus, the rules of divorce seem to have taken a You-turn.

"It has been said, 'Anyone who divorces his wife must give her a certificate of divorce.' But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, causes her to become an adulteress, and anyone who marries the divorced woman commits adultery. (Matthew 5:31-32)


Here Jesus abrogated the former permission to divorce according to the husband's displeasure and strictly allowed it under one condition - adultery. He even went so far as to legislate that divorcees were not permitted to remarry, clearly abrogating the former permission. But what is the reason given for this abrogation? Had God changed His mind? Is this evidence of God not being omniscient? Or more importantly, is this evidence that in fact God was never the author of these laws?


Well Jesus himself explains:

"Why then," they asked, "did Moses command that a man give his wife a certificate of divorce and send her away?" Jesus replied, "Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning. I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, and marries another woman commits adultery." (Matthew 19:7-9)

Jesus points to the fact that God designs laws that are suitable to the needs and exigencies of the time and audience.



Law Of Absolute Justice



In the book of Deteronomy:

Show no pity: life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot. (Deutronomy 19:21)

Quite a harsh law of absolute justice that was necessary due to the conditions of Moses' age. But Jesus was inspired by God to reveal a softer code for the believers to practice in individual relationships. By abrogating the harshness of absolute justice, Jesus was inspired to encourage the believers to employ forgiveness and mercy. It is recorded he said:

"You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.' But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you. (Matthew 5:38-42)

It is a different story that many Christians do not practice what Jesus has told them to do.


Law Of Oaths

We read:

If you make a vow to the LORD your God, do not be slow to pay it, for the LORD your God will certainly demand it of you and you will be guilty of sin. But if you refrain from making a vow, you will not be guilty. Whatever your lips utter you must be sure to do, because you made your vow freely to the LORD your God with your own mouth. (Deutronomy 23:21-23)

That is, it is permissible to make an oath for various reasons, however, the swearer must fulfil the oath he makes. In Jesus' time it became necessary for him to abrogate this permission so that the swearing of oaths became forbidden. In Matthew it is recorded:

"Again, you have heard that it was said to the people long ago, `Do not break your oath, but keep the oaths you have made to the Lord.' But I tell you, Do not swear at all: either by heaven, for it is God's throne; or by the earth, for it is his footstool; or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the Great King. And do not swear by your head, for you cannot make even one hair white or black. Simply let your `Yes' be `Yes,' and your `No,' `No'; anything beyond this comes from the evil one. (Matthew 5:33-37)


Jesus Abrogating His Own Commandments


Perhaps the clearest example of God inspiring Jesus to practice abrogation can be seen in the commissioning of his disciples. It is written in the New Testament that initially Jesus forbade his disciples from preaching to non-Jews. He restricted their activities and commanded them to avoid Gentiles. However, due to the change in circumstances and the completion of his earthly mission, Jesus abrogated this earlier law and made it not only permissible but obligatory for his disciples to reach out to a broader base.


A nice example of Jesus asking his disciples to preach the lost sheep of Israel is:

These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions: "Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans. Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel. (Matthew 10:5-6)

This prohibition is reinforced by Jesus' own practice:

A Canaanite woman from that vicinity came to him, crying out, "Lord, Son of David, have mercy on me! My daughter is suffering terribly from demon-possession." Jesus did not answer a word. So his disciples came to him and urged him, "Send her away, for she keeps crying out after us." He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel." (Matthew 15:22-24)

Even though because of his mercy Jesus healed the sick daughter, he made it clear that his mission was to the Jews, not to the Gentiles. Later on this was abrogated and Jesus commanded his disciples to reach out to all peoples. It is recorded he said:

Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age." (Matthew 28:18-20)

It is clear that the concept of abrogation: the nullifying of an older commandment or practice in favour of a newer law, is nothing new and it has been practiced by God for reasons known to him. What we know is that the laws governing the mankind (i.e., Shariah) changes according to the needs of the society. But the concept of monotheism (i.e., Tawheed) remains the same. The Creator knows very well that his creation, the humans, need time and discipline to grow and mature, He reveals commandments and practices that help them develop both as individuals and as members of society.
Re: The 5 versions of the Arabic Koran by pahtahkee: 8:15pm On Jan 23, 2008
@ Pilgrim.1,

Lol. . . . . . . . . Oh now I get it. The Professor of deceit on the religion forum babs, actually got this trait for Muhammad. Fifteen days, yet he can not answer simple questions.

Jesus was a man filled with the wisdom of God. Even when Pharisees came with difficult and guile questions, He was bestowed with wisdom to know what to say!
Re: The 5 versions of the Arabic Koran by babs787(m): 8:20pm On Jan 23, 2008
@babyosis


This is my last for your last post too and the next will be for Pilgrim.1



I promised 3 hadiths,now 3 times's the charm

Mishkat Al-Masabih: book 8, ch. 3, last hadith [4]

Ibn Abbas said he asked Uthman[1] what had induced them to deal with al-Anfal[2] which is one of the mathani[3] and with Bara`a[4] which is one with a hundred verses, joining them without writing the line containing "In the name of God, the Compassionate, the Merciful,"[5] and putting it among the seven long ones. When he asked again what had induced them to do that, Uthman replied, "Over a period suras with numerous verses would come down to God's messenger, and when something came down to him he would call one of those who wrote and tell him to put these verses in the sura in which such and such is mentioned, and when a verse came down he would tell them to put it in the sura in which such and such is mentioned. Now al-Anfal was one of the first to come down in Medina and Bara`a was among the last of the Qur'an to come down, and the subject-matter of the one resembled that of the other, so because God's messenger was taken without having explained to us whether it belonged to it, for that reason I joined them without writing the line containing `In the name of God, the Compassionate, the Merciful,' and put it among the long suras."

Footnotes for the above hadith

Uthman, the third successor to Muhammad.
al-Anfal is Sura (chapter) 8 in the Qur'an.
mathani: suras with less than 100 verses.
Bara`a, also called Tawba, is Sura 9.
Every sura in the Qur'an is introduced by "In the name of God, " except Sura 9.

Here we see that Uthman was questioned by other Muslims as to why he did not include the phrase, "In the name of God, the Compassionate, the Merciful", at the beginning of sura 9. His answer was that Muhammad had died without explaining where sura 9 belonged and so he (Uthman) joined it to sura 8 because they "resembled" each other. What is obvious is that some Muslims felt the phrase should have been there while Uthman did not. Uthman's decision prevailed and so the phrase is not included in the modern Qur'an.

These three examples from the hadith clearly show that there was some editing involved by those who compiled the Qur'an. It is also clear that the editors' decision was not universally agreed upon; it did not have universal consensus.


Do you and Pilgrim/1 have any Quranic translations having Bismillah in that same verse and please since you are that ignorant to quote without having a re-think of what you are posting, we have more than one verse not having Bismillah and Allah made provision for same in some verses.

Now Babyosis and Pilgrim.1, what happened to other verse that is not having Bismillah in the beginning as well?
Re: The 5 versions of the Arabic Koran by pilgrim1(f): 8:25pm On Jan 23, 2008
@pahtahkee,

pahtahkee:

@ Pilgrim.1,

Lol. . . . . . . . . Oh now I get it. The Professor of deceit on the religious forum babs, actually got this trait for Muhammad. Fifteen days, yet he can not answer simple questions.

It is precisely because Muhammad failed to prove himself a prophet even to the Jews, that was why his hatred followed him to his grave. Even with so much cursing on his lips against Christians and Jews, none of such curses has ever taken effect.

pahtahkee:

Jesus was a man filled with the wisdom of God. Even when Pharisees came with difficult and guile questions, He was bestowed with wisdom to know what to say!

Yep, and that is why the Muslim mindset is to seek to castigate the same Jesus whom they say they believe in. Classic hypocrisy unmatched!
Re: The 5 versions of the Arabic Koran by pilgrim1(f): 8:30pm On Jan 23, 2008
@babs787,

babs787:

@babyosis


This is my last for your last post too and the next will be for Pilgrim.1

Be sure you don't bring up any illiterate post when trying to dscuss with me. You know how I rubbish the Muslim games you have been playing - I've done so in different threads - and this won't be any different. If you are seeking a genuine discussion, then drop your hypocrisy.

babs787:

Do you and Pilgrim/1 have any Quranic translations having Bismillah in that same verse and please since you are that ignorant to quote without having a re-think of what you are posting, we have more than one verse not having Bismillah and Allah made provision for same in some verses.

With due respect, I have not regarded you with such uncouth language - and if you don't mind, drop your vexations and behave.

We know how the Bismillah verses did not survive those chapter headings - they were humanly deliberated and not as assumed by Muslims that they were so given by 'Allah'.

babs787:

Now Babyosis and Pilgrim.1, what happened to other verse that is not having Bismillah in the beginning as well?

Muslims should tell us - did they not claim that "everything" in the Qur'an came straight from 'Allah'? How come Muhammad was claiming the Qura'n as a "book" when there was no text and he was dictating to his companions? Do Muslims understand what a "book" is at all?
Re: The 5 versions of the Arabic Koran by osisi5: 8:35pm On Jan 23, 2008
Bukhari: vol. 6, hadith 60, p. 46; book 60

Narrated Ibn Az-Zubair:

I said to `Uthman, "This Verse which is in Surat-al-Baqara: `Those of you who die and leave wives behind,  without turning them out,' has been abrogated by an other Verse. Why then do you write it (in the Qur'an)?" `Uthman said, "Leave it (where it is), O son of my brother, for I will not shift anything of it (i.e. the Qur'an) from its original position."

Here we see that Ibn Az-Zubair and Uthman disagreed over whether or not a particular verse should be included in the Qur'an. Ibn Az-Zubair believed that the verse had been abrogated and therefore should be removed from the Qur'an, while Uthman was insistent that the verse should remain. Uthman had his way and so this verse is in the Qur'an today.


babs,you miss the point or you're trying to be evasive.
You are angry at the wrong person,I did not pen the hadiths.
See the commentary above.
The hadith is an authentic one and here we clearly see 2 individuals fighting over which verse was abrogated or allowed.
The issue is not about abrogation ,(we already know allah hurried to please his prophet when he was in a bind )but about which ones were abrogated.
so stay on course here.
Re: The 5 versions of the Arabic Koran by pilgrim1(f): 8:40pm On Jan 23, 2008
@babs787,

babs787:

Even though because of his mercy Jesus healed the sick daughter, he made it clear that his mission was to the Jews, not to the Gentiles.

He made it clear that His ministry of salvation was to the entire world - both Jews and Gentiles:

Matthew 24:14
And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world
for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

babs787:

Later on this was abrogated and Jesus commanded his disciples to reach out to all peoples.

Lol. . . there are no "abrogated verses" in the Bible as 'Allah' has abrogated so many verses in his Qur'an to such an extent that Muslims are not sure among themselves which are still standing.

For a start, could you enuciate for us ALL the abrogated verses of the Qur'an against all those that are not abrogated?

babs787:

It is clear that the concept of abrogation: the nullifying of an older commandment or practice in favour of a newer law, is nothing new and it has been practiced by God for reasons known to him.

Again here: Jesus never claimed to come and "nullify" any verse of the Bible. His word was not about "nullifying" anything, but about[b] FULFILLING[/b] them. This is why I asked olabowale to go and find out what the term means.

babs787:

What we know is that the laws governing the mankind (i.e., Shariah) changes according to the needs of the society.

In order words, laws of 'Allah' are also changing - according to your inference here?

babs787:

But the concept of monotheism (i.e., Tawheed) remains the same.

Inspite of all your excuses, please where at all did Muhammad refer to God as FATHER in just the same way as the Biblical prophets declared of God?

babs787:

The Creator knows very well that his creation, the humans, need time and discipline to grow and mature, He reveals commandments and practices that help them develop both as individuals and as members of society.

Has His revelation of His being the FATHER ever changed, babs787?
Re: The 5 versions of the Arabic Koran by pilgrim1(f): 8:44pm On Jan 23, 2008
@+osisi,

+osisi:

babs,you miss the point or you're trying to be evasive.

It's going to be hard for a Muslim to stop being evasive. We know how Muhammad ducked simple questions from the Jews until after 15 days after he declared his answers would come in the morning.

+osisi:

You are angry at the wrong person,I did not pen the hadiths.

Nothing new. Tell a Muslim to take a look at what their scholars are propagating - when he sees the stark truth, he gets upset at the wrong person.

+osisi:

See the commentary above.
The hadith is an authentic one and here we clearly see 2 individuals fighting over which verse was abrogated or allowed.

In Islam, Muslims are fond of choosing which of the authentic hadiths to deny - so nothing new there.

+osisi:

The issue is not about abrogation ,(we already know allah hurried to please his prophet when he was in a bind )but about which ones were abrogated.

Long and short, there was no "book" - the Qur'an was merely Muhammad's dictations.

+osisi:

so stay on course here.

Hard luck if he does. cheesy
Re: The 5 versions of the Arabic Koran by osisi5: 8:52pm On Jan 23, 2008
pilgrim please don't let the slaves of allah derail this thread.
That is always their tactics when they are caught up in their lies.
let them start a thread about Jesus' mission and we'll join if we care.

This thread is about the versions,revisions,doubts regarding abrogations,different recitations with 7 variant meanings,the Uthm standardising and burning all previous Korans.
The thread is about exposing the Islamic lies of the Koran remaining unchanged.
Re: The 5 versions of the Arabic Koran by pilgrim1(f): 8:56pm On Jan 23, 2008
@+osisi,

Thank you for reminding me about this:

+osisi:

pilgrim please don't let the slaves of allah derail this thread.
That is always their tactics when they are caught up in their lies.

Infact, I'm almost on my way out for an appointment - and a friend here just quipped about that same thing as she screamed: "don't let them derail the thread. . . that guymeaning babs787 is craftily deflecting the issue of translations of the qur'an!!"

Nne, make I go - I'll visit again to see what's been going on.

Shalom and many blessings o jare! cheesy

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