Abagworo:

I disagree with you on this one. Igbos are actually related either by blood or assimilation. If you go through that my thread on "origin of various Igbo clans" , you will observe that many Igbo towns seem to have been linked by women rather than men. I sometimes have the feeling that early Igbos might have practised "ligamy". I read stories of "Iguedo" and "Oma" which linked many Igbo communities in Anambra and Imo States.

I have concluded that there is a missing link among Igbos caused by either a natural disaster, slave trade or a forgotten war. We cannot just start speaking one language when we are not related and there was no empire that ruled over us as a single entity. The "Ovo/Ofo/Oho n'ogu", "Oha/Ora","Ala/Ali/Ana/Ani", "Chi" and "Olu"(dialect) is what defines us and has always been there time immemorial.

abagworo this is the first time you speak like a learned man. I wonder why so many people think shallowly. If language can coincidentally connect people of different origin,then i think the whole of southern europe would have been one language cos they traded heavily among themselves.

@ odumchi, what is "related" if not blood ties? If an accurate/perfect igbo history is to be brought out,don't be surprise that 95% of igbo people(anambra,enugu,imo,abia,ebonyi,part delta,part rivers) share common anscestry. There are assimilated igbos as well but more igbos are related genetically. What chinenye is saying just sound very childish to me because most oral traditions are focused on the immediate community/town in question and doesn't stress much on the relationship between igbo communities.

Antivirus, you were doing a good job moderating, asking questions and facilitating discussion. Now, you are on the verge of practically destroying a potential learning opportunity for us all, by drawing conclusions in the middle of a premature discussion. You are essentially putting words in the discussion's mouth and not allowing it to rightfully develop as a discussion should.

Anyway, getting back on track, Odumchi, now, that we have settled on our definition, let us tie it back into our discussion, so as to not derail too much. How would you connect this "building block" understanding back into our determination of Igbo as either a tribe, ethnic group or nation? In my understanding, these "building block" qualities are only further indicating Igbo to be some kind of an ethnic group, as opposed to a tribe or nation.

ChinenyeN: Antivirus, you were doing a good job moderating, asking questions and facilitating discussion. Now, you are on the verge of practically destroying a potential learning opportunity for us all, by drawing conclusions in the middle of a premature discussion. You are essentially putting words in the discussion's mouth and not allowing it to rightfully develop as a discussion should.

chinenye i am sorry if i have misbehaved again. But i only wanted to give my own contribution. But any way make you no vex. I like how the thread is going.

Antivirus92: @ odumchi, what is "related" if not blood ties? If an accurate/perfect igbo history is to be brought out,don't be surprise that 95% of igbo people(anambra,enugu,imo,abia,ebonyi,part delta,part rivers) share common anscestry. There are assimilated igbos as well but more igbos are related genetically. What chinenye is saying just sound very childish to me because most oral traditions are focused on the immediate community/town in question and doesn't stress much on the relationship between igbo communities.

Most Igbo communities lived independently and were developing their identities independently until the Europeans struck. The Igbos have not been able to achieve nationhood because they never achieved that before the European invasion. Our closest success to achieving nationhood was the rise of the "Igbo Union" during the pre-independence era but we suffered a set back as a result of the failed 1966 coup and the resultant war. Right now, the Ohaneze is our closest but it will take years before we'll succeed as a result of many factors. An important factor is the "origin" factor. Our origin is lost and rather than accept it as passed on by our fathers, people go about creating different stories that either claim that all Igbos are from Israel or Nri is the son of biblical Eri and is the father of all Igbos. Most Igbo groups believe God created them where they are found while others believe they migrated from a non-Igbo area into the Igbo territory or from one Igbo area to another.

Chinenye, beyond the imo river crossing migration,can the ngwa trace their migration/origin beyond owerri axis?

Antivirus, it's no problem. I'm not vexing. I also like how this thread is going. That is why I quickly brought it to your attention, so we might maintain the integrity of this discourse.

Abagworo:

Most Igbo communities lived independently and were developing their identities independently until the Europeans struck. The Igbos have not been able to achieve nationhood because they never achieved that before the European invasion. Our closest success to achieving nationhood was the rise of the "Igbo Union" during the pre-independence era but we suffered a set back as a result of the failed 1966 coup and the resultant war. Right now, the Ohaneze is our closest but it will take years before we'll succeed as a result of many factors. An important factor is the "origin" factor. Our origin is lost and rather than accept it as passed on by our fathers, people go about creating different stories that either claim that all Igbos are from Israel or Nri is the son of biblical Eri and is the father of all Igbos. Most Igbo groups believe God created them where they are found while others believe they migrated from a non-Igbo area into the Igbo territory or from one Igbo area to another.

my brother abagworo, you could remember that in those olden days,that every where was forest. So when many migrants left their home for another place,after travelling along distance, they sometimes forget the way back to where they migrated from because of the thick forest. They will just settle in their new home,form another group of people and focus their story of origin on the man or men that led them on that journey. only very few especially those who didn't travel all that long that still remember where they migrated from. But one thing is clear, they settle and still hold unto their mother tongue(igbo)even though another dialect may eventually emerge due to far away from home.

Pazienza, I'm not sure what role our aside has to play in this thread, but nonetheless I will answer. The Ngwa do not trace origin beyond the present locality.

The oxford advanced learner's dictionary 7th edition gave the following definitions, A TRIBEin developing countries) a group of people of the same race,and with the same customs,language,religion etc living in a particular area and often led by a chief. A NATION:a country considered as a group of people with the same language,culture and history,who live in a particular area under one government. ETHNICITY:the fact of belonging to a particular race.

So chinenye from the dictionary definitions, you can see that ethnicity and tribe are almost the same while a nation is just overly different. I can say that ethnicity is a broader view of a tribe.

Antivirus92: The oxford advanced learner's dictionary 7th edition gave the following definitions, A TRIBEin developing countries) a group of people of the same race,and with the same customs,language,religion etc living in a particular area and often led by a chief. A NATION:a country considered as a group of people with the same language,culture and history, who live in a particular area under one government. ETHNICITY:the fact of belonging to a particular race.

And herein lies the defining factor. I mentioned earlier that Igbo lacks the consciousness that defines a nation, and there it is.

Antivirus92: So chinenye from the dictionary definitions, you can see that ethnicity and tribe are almost the same while a nation is just overly different. I can say that ethnicity is a broader view of a tribe.

I would not consider nation to be all that different from ethnicity and tribe. Reading through the dictionary definition you posted, I can see that each term carries basically the same baseline definition. It is only the few distinguishing factors that make all the difference.

ChinenyeN: After reading Odumchi and Mbatuku's posts, I believe we may need to take a step back and agree on how we're using the terms [un]related. For me, it's face value. I can, for instance, say that Ngwa and Nike are really unrelated. Ngwa doesn't recognize Nike and vice versa. There is no relationship between Ngwa and communities in Anambra. I could go on, but I'm sure you all get my point. That is my understanding and use of the terms [un]related.

"Unrelated" is your keyword but Ngwa has the concept of "ala/ani","days of the week","chi","offor/ovo" and so fort. Your brother Mbatuku said Igbo is a "figment of whitemans imagination". And I want to know why they were places like "Igboukwu","Igbuzor","Aro Okigbo" and names like Igbokwe,Njibaigbo,Okadigbo,Okigbo before the arrival of whitemen. Each and everytime an Igbo discussions comes up you instantly muscle your mind toward finding the difference between Ngwa and other Igbo groups instead of examining how they are related. Or,is Ngwa not Igbo?

Nri Priest, you are entering a different subject matter. Anyway, I will tell you the same thing I told Abagworo. All you've said, though true, is circumstantial and not conclusive of anything other than the fact that there is a baseline similarity in culture and linguistics. It still does not tell us anything about the past that we can hold on to and affirm.

ChinenyeN: Pazienza, I'm not sure what role our aside has to play in this thread, but nonetheless I will answer. The Ngwa do not trace origin beyond the present locality.

Seriously? You are smarter than this,dude. What's the population of Ngwa and how long have they existed? Aren't they suppose to have migrated from Mbaise area? Why do most old men from Ngwa think so? I see why Obiagu calls you "100yrs old man"! This is just like me saying "Umuoji originated from their current location with our current population in mind.

ChinenyeN:

And herein lies the defining factor. I mentioned earlier that Igbo lacks the consciousness that defines a nation, and there it is.



I would not consider nation to be all that different from ethnicity and tribe. Reading through the dictionary definition you posted, I can see that each term carries basically the same baseline definition. It is only the few distinguishing factors that make all the difference.

chinenye just give another thought to that word "CONSIDERED" in the definition of a nation. There is a difference between, switzerland IS A country of whites and egypt can be CONSIDERED country of whites. It means that the swiss are all white people while there are only handful of white people in egypt.

ChinenyeN: Nri Priest, you are entering a different subject matter. Anyway, I will tell you the same thing I told Abagworo. All you've said, though true, is circumstantial and not conclusive of anything other than the fact that there is a baseline similarity in culture and linguistics. It still does not tell us anything about the past that we can hold on to and affirm.

but chinenye that similarities in culture and language,didn't it pass any message to you? Or do you think that they are just coincidence?. In the face of no written history, can't you just use what you see to judge because they all point to one thing.

Antivirus92: chinenye just give another thought to that word "CONSIDERED" in the definition of a nation. There is a difference between, switzerland IS A country of whites and egypt can be CONSIDERED country of whites. It means that the swiss are all white people while there are only handful of white people in egypt.

"Considered" does not strike me as the operative term. If we are looking to effectively differentiate between tribe, ethnicity and nation, then it would seem to me that the operative term should be anything within the definitions that creates distinction. "Considered" does not do that.

Antivirus92: but chinenye that similarities in culture and language,didn't it pass any message to you? Or do you think that they are just coincidence?. In the face of no written history, can't you just use what you see to judge because they all point to one thing.

As I stated to Nri Priest, it is circumstantial. It does not effectively tell us anything about the past, but it tells us a great deal about the the more recent present. That is a different topic though.

ChinenyeN:

As I stated to Nri Priest, it is circumstantial. It does not effectively tell us anything about the past, but it tells us a great deal about the the more recent present. That is a different topic though.

please throw more light on ur comment. Just break it down.

Is the discussion over?

ChinenyeN: Is the discussion over?

NRI PRIEST:

"Unrelated" is your keyword but Ngwa has the concept of "ala/ani","days of the week","chi","offor/ovo" and so fort. Your brother Mbatuku said Igbo is a "figment of whitemans imagination". And I want to know why they were places like "Igboukwu","Igbuzor","Aro Okigbo" and names like Igbokwe,Njibaigbo,Okadigbo,Okigbo before the arrival of whitemen. Each and everytime an Igbo discussions comes up you instantly muscle your mind toward finding the difference between Ngwa and other Igbo groups instead of examining how they are related. Or,is Ngwa not Igbo?

ChinenyeN: Is the discussion over?

There was no "Igboukwu". It is a recent change of name from Igbo Nkwo. However just like I stated earlier Igbo has always existed as a lingual group. If you have been able to read many past books on Aboh which was the 1st Igbo town to have contacts with the Europeans, they believed they were Igbos by extension but still did not believe in actually being connected to the interior Igbos. It is same with almost every Igbo group. The Ngwa for example have never denied being Igbo but they are more ethnically conscious to their Ngwa agenda and treats the Igbo agenda as secondary.

Abagworo: There was no "Igboukwu". It is a recent change of name from Igbo Nkwo. However just like I stated earlier Igbo has always existed as a lingual group. If you have been able to read many past books on Aboh which was the 1st Igbo town to have contacts with the Europeans, they believed they were Igbos by extension but still did not believe in actually being connected to the interior Igbos. It is same with almost every Igbo group. The Ngwa for example have never denied being Igbo but they are more ethnically conscious to their Ngwa agenda and treats the Igbo agenda as secondary.

I believe we may be derailing, and I wouldn't like to entertain the derailment too much, but I do feel I need to comment on the bold. Ngwa did not acknowledge or identify with "Igbo" until the mid 20th century. Before that time, Ngwa had always maintained that they formed a single, distinct people. As recent as the 60's, there were Ngwa who did not identify as "Igbo", and though you may not want to believe it, some still don't. Although, the Ngwa body now generally acknowledges "Igboness", but a strong sense of distinction and distancing between Ngwa and Igbo identity still actively pervades.

Antivirus92: please throw more light on ur comment. Just break it down.

Well, it is undeniable that there are distinct ethnological elements recognized by most communities in the Igbo area. With this knowledge, we can effectively and affirmatively deduce certain things about the history in this area. I say affirmatively because there is foundation for them. The deductions can be grounded on something (as deductions should be), rather than be suspended in air, with little to no substantial grounding.

Deductions that are suspended in the air are assumptions. Assumptions have no affirmation, meaning they either altogether lack or have a weak foundational basis. Assumptions happen most when things are inconclusive, and when things are inconclusive, it means that the evidence is circumstantial.

The things that Nri Priest and Abagworo have so far 'concluded' on, falls in the class of assumption, because they attempt to base it on something that they cannot really tether to. So, as far as reasoning is concerned, their 'conclusions' are more suspended than they are grounded (I'm being generous with my wording), which makes it difficult [at least for me] to reasonably see sense in their postulations.

ChinenyeN:
Well, it is undeniable that there are distinct ethnological elements recognized by most communities in the Igbo area. With this knowledge, we can effectively and affirmatively deduce certain things about the history in this area. I say affirmatively because there is foundation for them. The deductions can be grounded on something (as deductions should be), rather than be suspended in air, with little to no substantial grounding.

Deductions that are suspended in the air are assumptions. Assumptions have no affirmation, meaning they either altogether lack or have a weak foundational basis. Assumptions happen most when things are inconclusive, and when things are inconclusive, it means that the evidence is circumstantial.

The things that Nri Priest and Abagworo have so far 'concluded' on, falls in the class of assumption, because they attempt to base it on something that they cannot really tether to. So, as far as reasoning is concerned, their 'conclusions' are more suspended than they are grounded (I'm being generous with my wording), which makes it difficult [at least for me] to reasonably see sense in their postulations.

This question is open to you. Why didn't Ibibio an Okrika. Acquire those basic things that define Igbo?

ChinenyeN:

I believe we may be derailing, and I wouldn't like to entertain the derailment too much, but I do feel I need to comment on the bold. Ngwa did not acknowledge or identify with "Igbo" until the mid 20th century. Before that time, Ngwa had always maintained that they formed a single, distinct people. As recent as the 60's, there were Ngwa who did not identify as "Igbo", and though you may not want to believe it, some still don't. Although, the Ngwa body now generally acknowledges "Igboness", but a strong sense of distinction and distancing between Ngwa and Igbo identity still actively pervades.

If I knew you were into Igbo denial, I wouldn't respect you one bit. A man who denies himself has no dignity and deserves no respect. I regard "Agbotaen" as a useless man because of his rants on self denial. It is time you make known your stand on this Igbo identity issue for me to know where to place you.

(1)Are you an Igbo man or (2)do you believe Igbos are claiming Ngwa? Don't dodge this question.

But chinenye when there are no written/well documented igbo history,what do u expect us to do? To believe that igbo is a collection of different group of people? Please answer abagworo question so that i will know my stand as partaining you. Are you ngwa or igbo or both? And again chinenye please explain alittle bit more on how different igbo groups happen to have the same language and culture.

I was liking this discussion up until now. Abagworo, I will dodge that question.

1) I don't see sense in having this discussion again. If you want to know my stance (which I thought you already did), then kindly review my post history.

2) I stated earlier that I believe us to be derailing, and I expressed my disinterest in further entertaining the derailment.

3) It is ridiculous to me that we cannot hold an Igbo-related discussion here on NL without Igbo people questioning one another's Igboness. Very unnecessary.

Anyway, this was a good topic while it lasted, though it would have been better had the discourse further developed and matured.

ChinenyeN: I was liking this discussion up until now. Abagworo, I will dodge that question.

1) I don't see sense in having this discussion again. If you want to know my stance (which I thought you already did), then kindly review my post history.

2) I stated earlier that I believe us to be derailing, and I expressed my disinterest in further entertaining the derailment.

3) It is ridiculous to me that we cannot hold an Igbo-related discussion here on NL without Igbo people questioning one another's Igboness. Very unnecessary.

Anyway, this was a good topic while it lasted, though it would have been better had the discourse further developed and matured.

very well said. It pains me too on how we cannot hold an igbo discussion even though we're all igbos. But the truth is that we usually cause the problem ourselves.

I hope the cookie is not on its way to crumbling. . .?

There must be something about Chinenye's opinion. How come most times his views tend to draw the discussion away from the main issue and focus on him, then ala Ngwa?

Could it be that we are deep down "interested in knowing more about our Ngwa brethren"?
Maybe we can open a thread someday to ask our Ngwa brothers questions?no insults, an educative question and answer session.

@topic, I believe Igbo is a nation. Its ala Igbo first before ndi Igbo. (lol @ my very ridiculous input)

ifyalways: I hope the cookie is not on its way to crumbling. . .?

There must be something about Chinenye's opinion. How come most times his views tend to draw the discussion away from the main issue and focus on him, then ala Ngwa?

Could it be that we are deep down "interested in knowing more about our Ngwa brethren"?
Maybe we can open a thread someday to ask our Ngwa brothers questions?no insults, an educative question and answer session.

@topic, I believe Igbo is a nation. Its ala Igbo first before ndi Igbo. (lol @ my very ridiculous input)

ify ikwuru nke oma but please can u just explain further into the igbo nationhood as concerning the topic and give reason(s) why you think that igbo is not a tribe/ethnic group.