*Just wondering if I missed Bernimoore's answer to my post or he hasn't answered*

@Italo,

Firstly, we don't bow to and make supplication to any statue. We can bow before a statue

CONTRADICTION!!!this is just indicisive!!! can you see that? lets go now;

We can bow before a statue but only in reverence to the depicted Saint or God who bestows honour on that Saint.

who commanded that? was any command to such effect contained in 'the sacred scriptures' just name one! this is another example of what jesus was saying to the pharisees/religious leaders of his days that ''you make Gods law ineffective'' due to your own tradition...mathew 15:1-3.

Does this your definition of worship apply to everybody or just to Catholics?

since that 'act of rosary or bowing to mary's image and making recitations' were not 'commanded by God' in the first place in any of the sacred scriptures, the catholics grossly erred in assuming such for God.

If it applies to everybody, can we then say that Joshua and the other Israelites worshipped the Ark of the Covenant? Or are you going to judge them differently than you do Catholics?

Joshua 7:6 Then Joshua tore his clothes and fell facedown to the ground before the ark of the Lord, remaining there till evening. The elders of Israel did the same, and sprinkled dust on their heads. 7 And Joshua said, “Alas, Sovereign Lord, why did you ever bring this people across the Jordan to deliver us into the hands of the Amorites to destroy us? If only we had been content to stay on the other side of the Jordan! 8 Pardon your servant, Lord. What can I say, now that Israel has been routed by its enemies? 9 The Canaanites and the other people of the country will hear about this and they will surround us and wipe out our name from the earth. What then will you do for your own great name?”

This is where you missed the point,(pls note it)God had earlier commanded not only the use of Ark of the Covenant,but he (God)instructed,and directed detailed pattern of the ark,what to be used in its construction;the lenght,breath etc and how it will be used! we can say that God had already pictured in his mind what the ark will look like before it was constructed.the of Ark of the Covenant does not come by joshua's own innitiative like the 'image of mary' which does not follow any laid down pattern by Gods command,but where it came from was formulated by the catholics,but the of Ark of the Covenant; its construction details were commanded and passed over to the isrealites, lets read;Exodus 25:
EXODUS 25
''The LORD said to Moses, 2 “Tell the Israelites to bring me an offering. You are to receive the offering for me from everyone whose heart prompts them to give. 3 These are the offerings you are to receive from them: gold, silver and bronze; 4 blue, purple and scarlet yarn and fine linen; goat hair; 5 ram skins dyed red and another type of durable leather[a];acacia wood; 6 olive oil for the light; spices for the anointing oil and for the fragrant incense; 7 and onyx stones and other gems to be mounted on the ephod and breastpiece.
8 “Then have them make a sanctuary for me, and I will dwell among them. 9 Make this tabernacle and all its furnishings exactly like the pattern I will show you
10 “Have them make an ark of acacia wood—two and a half cubits long, a cubit and a half wide, and a cubit and a half high.[c] 11 Overlay it with pure gold, both inside and out, and make a gold molding around it. 12 Cast four gold rings for it and fasten them to its four feet, with two rings on one side and two rings on the other. 13 Then make poles of acacia wood and overlay them with gold. 14 Insert the poles into the rings on the sides of the ark to carry it. 15 The poles are to remain in the rings of this ark; they are not to be removed.16 Then put in the ark the tablets of the covenant law, which I will give you.

italo: *Just wondering if I missed Bernimoore's answer to my post or he hasn't answered*

You want to start parents worship things shey? Why not define worship so that we will know whether to follow your own definition.

How do you know that you are worshipping idol? Is it when your two legs are up and you're shouting 'pray for us' that you know.

Boomark:

Do you just make an image of any body and name it saint Peter, bowing and revering it?

this question is for you and your friends?

Italo and ubenedictus

read v9 where it says "make this terbanacle and all its furnishings exactly like the pattern i will show you."

so next time don't ask me if the cherubs are exact image or not as if you guys don't read your bible, and as if God will leave them to just make anybody that might resemble Pontius Pilate and present to Him.

@Italo

Again you need to know that God has a standard 'he directs how his things are to be done' and that is why you need to know how God frown at when someone 'creates and subtitutes Gods standard with his own'. that is what the catholics just did! and fortunately,let us see a perfect example of ''creating an image as a means through which we direct worship to God''

Have you ever wondered why 3000 isrealites were killed by plague by God? because they seek worshiping God through 'Calf image' since they cannot see God and could not wait for moses to return from the mountain to give them Gods commandment, they assume worshipping God in their own way 'through calf image'
lets read;Exodus 32:7,

7 Then the Lord said to Moses, “Go down, because your people, whom you brought up out of Egypt, have become corrupt. 8 They have been quick to turn away from what I commanded them [/b]and have made themselves an idol cast in the shape of a calf. They have bowed down to it and sacrificed to it and have said, [b]‘These are your gods, Israel, who brought you up out of Egypt.’

Note Gods anger is that ''They have been quick to turn away from what I commanded them'' God understood the fact that they were trying to give a worship to him through the calf by reffering to Gods wonderfull act towards their delivery from the egyptian army of pharaoh saying ''These are your gods, Israel, who brought you up out of Egypt'',since the calf-image was moulded with their rings necklace etc,they want to impress that the calf image is just a representation, and they want God to understand their desperate situation for worship but they are impatient to follow Gods command earlier in exodus 20; 'you shall not carve any image for youself.......

Similarly, when men seek to worship God according to their own innovations, they are concurrently deviating from the biblical means of worship, and thereby adding to their own guilt. The Lord declares of such: "In vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men" (Matt. 15:9).
"The acceptable way of worshipping the true God is instituted by himself, and so limited by his own revealed will, that he may not be worshipped according to the imaginations and devices of men, or the suggestions of Satan, under any visible representation, or any other way not prescribed in the holy scripture."

Thou shalt not do so unto the Lord thy God. What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it" (Deut. 12:30-32).
That last statement points to doctrine highlighted earlier in the book of Deuteronomy respecting the sufficiency and authority of scripture. "Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you" (Deut. 4:2)

Even going by your reason of using marys image, you are still found wanting and causing of confussion, how? Mary's role according to catholics is Competing with Christ,and Conflict with Scripture

Since Our Lady of Fatima (the Virgin Mary) asserts an equivalent position to Christ with respect to mediating salvation, we have a problem on our hands since 1 Timothy 2:5 together with Hebrews 7:23-25, Acts 4:11-12 and John 14:6 [size=14pt]clearly and unequivocally state that Jesus Christ is the eternal and sole mediator who can save us and that he is the only way to the Father.[/size] Can the Virgin Mary have any possible rivaling salvaging role that also happens to be supported by scripture? No, it doesn’t… because salvation is a business done by Jesus and Jesus only.

sacred Scriptures leaves no room for doubt or compromise.

you can see that from all angle the notion is defeated outrightly!

@ bernimoore,

You didn't answer me still,

You said 'worship' involves bowing to and making supplication,

Joshua bowed and made supplication

So did he worship the Ark of the the Covenant or not?

Its a 'yes or no' question.

No need for long meaningless stories.

@Italo

You didn't answer me still,

You said 'worship' involves bowing to and making supplication,

For the third time again,you are making me to restate what an act of worship means as i relate it to the catholics,and just because you want to justify a fraudulent act of the catholics using a particular incident that did not in anyway supports your assertions!,and im still reffering you to my 1st post which i state categorically and you need to quote my statement to the end,or in full(go back and view it again for the last time and see that i mean every word that i put there and can defend it to the end),

and this is it again,read;.... act of worship demands 'bowing or making supplications' as the catholics do to their Mary statue!
why do i say in that last sentence that ''as the catholics do to their Mary statue''!it is because they are the disobedient type of people,and self reliance not needing Gods direction for anything! a sturborn set of people!

Joshua bowed and made supplication

you are a criminal,oh you think i dont remember what i said earlier? by mixing it? italo, you are a criminal to the core by 'setting in disguise or putting this next words in quote as mine ''Joshua bowed and made supplication''you see your life? did i ever equate what joshua did 'as an act of worship? noooo!
joshua's case is a tottally different one! firstly,you need to understand that did God ever demand that joshua should fell down before the Ark? all what God demanded was to listen and follow his command, because he need not to have fell on his face before the ark had he not rely on his own understanding and failed and later seeking Gods favour by force! and he did so out of panic!''obedience is better than sacrifice(samuel says)''

may i say that you 'italo are learning' only if you will be humble enough, because your poor application here shows that you are not even conversant with the joshua story that you want to use as a bait to hunt others; lets see how you poorly put it like olodo

So did he worship the Ark of the the Covenant or not?

“Get up off your face, Joshua.” God spoke, with surprisingly brusque words It was not a time to pray.there was no need to fell on his face at all! refusing to learn from the story tell so much ignorance in you!

It was not a time to seek God’s blessing. There was nothing to pray about until Israel faced its sin and repented. Then, and only then, would the blessing of God-given victory continue.

First, Israel became self-confident. When the spies returned, they told Joshua, in Joshua 7:3, that they would not need the whole army. It would only take two or three thousand to conquer this city. They relied on their own ability.
Where did this presumption come from? What had Israel done to defeat Jericho? One thing. One thing only. They obeyed. When God said march, they marched. And the walls came a-tumblin’ down. It was not Joshua’s leadership or Israel’s military prowess that won the battle. It was God’s power. But now,Israel was taking credit for what God had done. “A mighty army like ours, having just defeated Jericho, will find little challenge against Ai.”

Remember this: In the power of God, no enemy is too big. Greater is he that is in you… But in the power of self, no enemy is too small. You can be defeated by anything in this world if you trust in yourself and rely of your own power. Those who trust in Christ will never be disappointed, but those who trust in themselves will be amazed at their ability to fail.

Second, Israel was careless. Achan had sinned against God, taking spoils from Jericho against the command of God. Israel had sinned and God would not bless them until the sin was dealt with. Today, we want to think that God has changed his mind, that he will bless us whether we are obedient or not, whether we walk in the flesh or in the Spirit.

When Israel repented, the blessing of God returned and Ai was defeated. But the victory at Ai, in Joshua 8, reveals the fatal flaw in Joshua’s leadership in Joshua 7. Israelwas self-confident and careless, but there was a bigger problem.

Finally, the battle of Jericho was won because Israel did what God told them to do, the way God told them to it. In Joshua 8, the battle of Ai was won because Israel did what God told them to do, the way God told them to do it. There is a pattern in victory; God commands, his people obey, and God acts in power.

In Joshua 7, Joshua acted independently, entirely on his own. God did not say, “Attack Ai.” He did not give battle plans. Joshua sent out the spies. Joshua made the decisions. He never sought God. If he had gone to God before the first battle of Ai, God would have said, “Deal with your sin first.” Thirty-six men would not have had to die.

The man or woman of God who wants victory does not act independently. He does not listen to the will of man or the ways of the world. He does not expect God to bless his agenda but seeks to submit himself to the agenda of God.

It is not the size of our enemies or our armies that matters; it is our dependence on God that makes the difference between victory and defeat.

Joshua learned at Jericho that a weak army, dependent on and obedient to God could defeat any foe. He learned at Ai that God’s people, sinful and self-reliant, could be defeated by the smallest things. (go and read the account again JOSHUA chapter 7-.ok?

Its a 'yes or no' question.

No need for long meaningless stories.

thats the bait, you think you are fishing? ole! tell us you are spoonfeed by your catholic priets! you dont even know the detail of the joshua story!

Great one

great-one koo,small one nii, see who is talking great one!

@ Bernimoore,

Since your definition of "worship" includes doing it in disobedience to God or "as the Catholics do to their Mary statue" like you put it, it then means nobody can worship God in obedience.

Disobedience is part of definition of "worship" so YOU don't worship God...

...Going by the way you reason.

Or do you want to redefine "worship" to fit your deficient logic?

If Bernimoore had quoted from the bulletin, italo will jump up in excitement, give him a holy kiss and want to discus more with him.

What is written in the bible makes no sense any more and its referred to as meaningless by you. Bernimoore has taken time to teach the Catholics from the scriptures. Learn from him.

"Get off your face Catholics from bowing to idols." A fine rebuke.

all men to his form of worship, whatever works for you italo works for you, whatever works for bookmark works for you, deep down somein is jus not rite bout how catholics practice xtianity, dey changed a lot of things, sprinkling water as baptism instead of by immersion, believing a priest simply prayin for you can take a dying man to heaven, believing d pope can erase all ur sins, saying dere is purgatory, beseechin mary to talk to Jesus, changin 10 commandment to suite demself, as dey removed d dont bow before idol part and split d covet wife and property commandment in two, stil all men to deir belief

bursturbrain :
all men to his form of worship, whatever works for you italo works for you, whatever works for bookmark works for you, deep down somein is jus not rite bout how catholics practice xtianity, dey changed a lot of things, sprinkling water as baptism instead of by immersion, believing a priest simply prayin for you can take a dying man to heaven, believing d pope can erase all ur sins, saying dere is purgatory, beseechin mary to talk to Jesus, changin 10 commandment to suite demself, as dey removed d dont bow before idol part and split d covet wife and property commandment in two, stil all men to deir belief

The question was 'what is your definition of "worship"'?

Is this the answer above?

italo:

The question was 'what is your definition of "worship"'?

Is this the answer above?

Tell us what worship is.

Boomark:

Tell us what worship is.

What does an ignorant Catholic know?

I'm just looking for any anti-Catholic who know everything to teach my poor soul.

...And you've already taught/told me that you worship your parents (based on your definition of worship, which is to give honour and respect to something)...

...So let someone else teach me...

uboma: [b][/b]


Why should i bow to greet a pastor (a fellow man like me)? However i agree with ur comment on tithe. Paying tithe is no guarantee to enter the kingdom of God...

How will tithe that will be used to buy private jet get anyone heaven? Continue to deceive yourself as you approach hell fire.

italo:

What does an ignorant Catholic know?

I'm just looking for any anti-Catholic who know everything to teach my poor soul.

...And you've already taught/told me that you worship your parents (based on your definition of worship, which is to give honour and respect to something)...

...So let someone else teach me...

So what made you to still refuse we have been teaching you. Take it and throw away every idol in your possession.

BERNIMOORE: @Ubenedictus

what history are you talking about,talking about cannon,scriptures etc i think i have contributed a lot on those treads, but something stands out,your (catholics)added unknown scriptures i.e the maccabees are 'not sacred scriptures' but rather are confirmed part of apocrypha!but rather the 66 books of the bible are all 'confirmed sacred scriptures' and the catholics own added scriptures like maccabbees and the rest unsacred scriptures 'taught contradictory things from the sacred scriptures'like purgatory! that violently contradict ezekiel 18:4 that 'soul that sinneth dies' but purgatory says they dont! but rather survives the body, God is not of confussion,but rather the catholics are 'bunch of confusionist' boxing theirself to a corner with 'pagan scriptures' associated with soul torture,...'test every spirit wheather they originate from God' was penned down as an instruction in the book of titus, and how do we test, its by comparing and reconcilling the truths in the bible,which catholics apocrypha was short of,but promote paganisn and idol worshiping!

this is the very reason why i said protestants should study a little history. The synod of rome and hippo decided what is called d christain bible about the 4th century. And macabees was among canon 36 http://www.cristoraul.com/ENGLISH/Reading-Hall-JWC/Western-Civilization-Jewels/HEFELE/Book-8/109.html cathage confirmed it and macabees was also among canon 24 http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/3816.htm from the till 1500AD Macabees was in all christian scripture and martin luther came in and saw that if he retain d deuterocanonical books he will be unable to win a biblical arguement so he removed them instead of 46 books he put 39 in his bible. And yet u dare to accuse the catholic church of adding books? No accuse ur protestant churches of removing books. And i repeat read a little history.

BERNIMOORE: @rich4God


ask a willing-suicide bomber's opinion about who he worships,he will definatelly tell you allah, and what reason does he have? he cites the jihad'surah chapter 9:5; which mandates them to 'slay' or 'kill' non-muslims who are generaly perceived as idolaters,it reads and i quote surah 9:5...slay the idolaters,besiege them,lay ambush for them....

Now from the suicide bombers Opinion,his actions as perceived by many is 'ignorance to them' because he is commissioned with a scripture backing! and that is why 'we' the onlookers do not follow what they say, but what they do.
The same applies to the catholics, they are taught to dissmiss any querry to their act or behavior to an image by sharply denying that theyare worshipping a God-forbidden image as clealy spelt out in the bible.....they start by riddiculing your objection by saying,'what are you talking about?'

catholics solid stance is, “No, we do not worship Mary!”(that is how they are trained to respond) However, the evidence is overwhelmingly against them. But before the evidence is presented, I’d like to cut at the root of this dispute.

Now lets reason from their own perspective and you will see that catholics are found wanting based on the available evidences ; lets go;

The apostle Peter, who is alleged to be the first pope,did he mention Mary in any of his biblical letters. Nor is there any record in any of the other letters, such as Acts of the Apostles, that Peter ever referred to Mary. Not only did he not mention her, directly or indirectly, but zero nothing is said by any apostle about the need to venerate or worship her. This fact speaks volumes against the Catholic’s view of Mary.

Why? Why did Peter fail to mention the “Virgin Mary”? Surely if all popes worshipped Mary and leaned on her for salvation, and they have, as the evidence will show, and if Peter was the first pope, why does he not praise and adore Mary in the same vein as other popes? The question demands an answer.

The Late Pope John Paul II Worshipped Mary & Relied On Her For Salvation

If the pope is the role model and instructor and guide for Catholics, and he is, and if they are striving to follow in his footsteps, and they are, they give the same level of reverence to Mary as their “Supreme Pontiff.” [size=14pt]It is a documented fact that the late Pope John Paul II relied more on Mary for salvation than on Jesus.[/size]

Pope John Paul made more than 40 pilgrimages to her shrines at Lourdes and Fatima. He wrote in his Apostolic Letter of Oct. 16, 2002, the following words:

[size=14pt]“I entrust this Apostolic Letter to the loving hands of the Virgin Mary, prostrating myself in spirit before her image in the splendid Shrine built for her by Blessed Bartolo Longo, the apostle of the Rosary.”
[/size]
Salvation In Mary & The Rosary!
Embroidered inside all of Pope John Paul’s robes was the phrase, [size=14pt]“Totus tuus sum Maria,” which means, “Mary, I am all yours.”[/size]

The Catholic Rosary concludes:
“HAIL, HOLY QUEEN, Mother of Mercy, our life, our sweetness and our hope! To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve; to thee do we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping in this valley of tears. Turn then, most gracious advocate, thine eyes of mercy toward us, and after this our exile, show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus. O clement, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary!”

It is of interest when we ponder Roman Catholicism’s popular “15 Promises of Mary.” Among them we find:

“The soul which recommends itself to me [Mary] by the recitation of the Rosary, shall not perish...I shall deliver from purgatory those who have been devoted to the Rosary. Those who are faithful to recite the Rosary shall…at the moment of death…participate in the merits of the Saints in Paradise.”

It is obvious, then, that not only did the late pope worship Mary and place his eternal security in her, but it is equally obvious that “the faithful” follow in his footsteps. When Catholics turn from faith in Jesus Christ alone for salvation to trusting Mary and the Rosary, as did Pope John Paul II, they place their eternal salvation in jeopardy, [size=14pt]for Jesus Himself declared, "No one comes to the Father except through me" (John 14:6).
[/size]
If Jesus spoke the truth, and He did, there is zero security and salvation in Mary and the Rosary. In the pope’s “Prayer For The Marian Year,” he prayed:

[size=14pt]“Sustain us, O Virgin Mary, on our journey of faith and obtain for us the grace of eternal salvation.”
[/size]

incase u missed it my friend mary is mentioned in d acts of the apostles and i wish u know d meaning of d prayers u quoted instead of misinterpreting them. They are intercessory.

Boomark:

So what made you to still refuse we have been teaching you. Take it and throw away every idol in your possession.

i've gat none

Boomark:

Tell us what worship is.

this has become a joke, u were asked to define worship, instead u are asking d person wu asked u to do so. Now it is a joke!

bursturbrain :
all men to his form of worship, whatever works for you italo works for you, whatever works for bookmark works for you, deep down somein is jus not rite bout how catholics practice xtianity, dey changed a lot of things, sprinkling water as baptism instead of by immersion,

we learnt it from the early christians.

believing a priest simply prayin for you can take a dying man to heaven,

my bible says "whosoever u 4give is forgiving"

believing d pope can erase all ur sins, saying dere is purgatory, beseechin mary to talk to Jesus,

it is called intercession i blive d word is in ur bible.

changin 10 commandment to suite demself,

did they number d ten commandment in ur bible?

as dey removed d dont bow before idol part and split d covet wife and property commandment in two,

that part is in d commandment nobody removed it. Where are u geting ur information from?

stil all men to deir belief

oh yeah.

BERNIMOORE: @Italo
you are a criminal,oh you think i dont remember what i said earlier? by mixing it? italo, you are a criminal to the core by 'setting in disguise or putting this next words in quote as mine ''Joshua bowed and made supplication''you see your life? did i ever equate what joshua did 'as an act of worship? noooo!
joshua's case is a tottally different one! firstly,you need to understand that did God ever demand that joshua should fell down before the Ark? all what God demanded was to listen and follow his command, because he need not to have fell on his face before the ark had he not rely on his own understanding and failed and later seeking Gods favour by force! and he did so out of panic!''obedience is better than sacrifice(samuel says)''

may i say that you 'italo are learning' only if you will be humble enough, because your poor application here shows that you are not even conversant with the joshua story that you want to use as a bait to hunt others; lets see how you poorly put it like olodo



“Get up off your face, Joshua.” God spoke, with surprisingly brusque words It was not a time to pray.there was no need to fell on his face at all! refusing to learn from the story tell so much ignorance in you!

It was not a time to seek God’s blessing. There was nothing to pray about until Israel faced its sin and repented. Then, and only then, would the blessing of God-given victory continue.

First, Israel became self-confident. When the spies returned, they told Joshua, in Joshua 7:3, that they would not need the whole army. It would only take two or three thousand to conquer this city. They relied on their own ability.
Where did this presumption come from? What had Israel done to defeat Jericho? One thing. One thing only. They obeyed. When God said march, they marched. And the walls came a-tumblin’ down. It was not Joshua’s leadership or Israel’s military prowess that won the battle. It was God’s power. But now,Israel was taking credit for what God had done. “A mighty army like ours, having just defeated Jericho, will find little challenge against Ai.”

Remember this: In the power of God, no enemy is too big. Greater is he that is in you… But in the power of self, no enemy is too small. You can be defeated by anything in this world if you trust in yourself and rely of your own power. Those who trust in Christ will never be disappointed, but those who trust in themselves will be amazed at their ability to fail.

Second, Israel was careless. Achan had sinned against God, taking spoils from Jericho against the command of God. Israel had sinned and God would not bless them until the sin was dealt with. Today, we want to think that God has changed his mind, that he will bless us whether we are obedient or not, whether we walk in the flesh or in the Spirit.

When Israel repented, the blessing of God returned and Ai was defeated. But the victory at Ai, in Joshua 8, reveals the fatal flaw in Joshua’s leadership in Joshua 7. Israelwas self-confident and careless, but there was a bigger problem.

Finally, the battle of Jericho was won because Israel did what God told them to do, the way God told them to it. In Joshua 8, the battle of Ai was won because Israel did what God told them to do, the way God told them to do it. There is a pattern in victory; God commands, his people obey, and God acts in power.

In Joshua 7, Joshua acted independently, entirely on his own. God did not say, “Attack Ai.” He did not give battle plans. Joshua sent out the spies. Joshua made the decisions. He never sought God. If he had gone to God before the first battle of Ai, God would have said, “Deal with your sin first.” Thirty-six men would not have had to die.

u have decided to give a long story, u guy said worship means "to bow down and make supplication" just two questions all i need is yes or no! Did joshua bow down and make supplication b4 d ark?
2. If he did does that make him an idol worshipper? Yes or no!
Stop telling me stories i can read d stories myself frm my bible.

BERNIMOORE: Even going by your reason of using marys image, you are still found wanting and causing of confussion, how? Mary's role according to catholics is Competing with Christ,and Conflict with Scripture

Since Our Lady of Fatima (the Virgin Mary) asserts an equivalent position to Christ with respect to mediating salvation, we have a problem on our hands since 1 Timothy 2:5 together with Hebrews 7:23-25, Acts 4:11-12 and John 14:6 [size=14pt]clearly and unequivocally state that Jesus Christ is the eternal and sole mediator who can save us and that he is the only way to the Father.[/size] Can the Virgin Mary have any possible rivaling salvaging role that also happens to be supported by scripture? No, it doesn’t… because salvation is a business done by Jesus and Jesus only.

sacred Scriptures leaves no room for doubt or compromise.

you can see that from all angle the notion is defeated outrightly!

you are on ur own, d above is not a catholic teaching nobody is competing with Jesus. You are on ur own. U cant ask me to defend something my church doesnt believe, u ar on ur own.

BERNIMOORE: @Italo

Again you need to know that God has a standard 'he directs how his things are to be done' and that is why you need to know how God frown at when someone 'creates and subtitutes Gods standard with his own'. that is what the catholics just did! and fortunately,let us see a perfect example of ''creating an image as a means through which we direct worship to God''

Have you ever wondered why 3000 isrealites were killed by plague by God? because they seek worshiping God through 'Calf image' since they cannot see God and could not wait for moses to return from the mountain to give them Gods commandment, they assume worshipping God in their own way 'through calf image'
lets read;Exodus 32:7,

u just lied, the werent trying to worship God with a golden calf as they do with d ark of d covenant, instead they made d calf their god. And ascribe d deeds of Yahweh to their calf

7 Then the Lord said to Moses, “Go down, because your people, whom you brought up out of Egypt, have become corrupt. 8 They have been quick to turn away from what I commanded them [/b]and have made themselves an idol cast in the shape of a calf. They have bowed down to it and sacrificed to it and have said, [b]‘These are your gods, Israel, who brought you up out of Egypt.’

Note Gods anger is that ''They have been quick to turn away from what I commanded them'' God understood the fact that they were trying to give a worship to him through the calf by reffering to Gods wonderfull act towards their delivery from the egyptian army of pharaoh saying ''These are your gods, Israel, who brought you up out of Egypt'',since the calf-image was moulded with their rings necklace etc,they want to impress that the calf image is just a representation, and they want God to understand their desperate situation for worship but they are impatient to follow Gods command earlier in exodus 20; 'you shall not carve any image for youself.......

this is a big lie they werent trying to woship yahweh.
my bible says they said to aaron "up, makes us gods who shall go before us,..." does that sound like they were trying to worship Yahweh?

Similarly, when men seek to worship God according to their own innovations, they are concurrently deviating from the biblical means of worship, and thereby adding to their own guilt. The Lord declares of such: "In vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men" (Matt. 15:9).
"The acceptable way of worshipping the true God is instituted by himself, and so limited by his own revealed will, that he may not be worshipped according to the imaginations and devices of men, or the suggestions of Satan, under any visible representation, or any other way not prescribed in the holy scripture."

was d ark of d covenant not a visible representation? Was it invisible?

Thou shalt not do so unto the Lord thy God. What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it" (Deut. 12:30-32).
That last statement points to doctrine highlighted earlier in the book of Deuteronomy respecting the sufficiency and authority of scripture. "Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you" (Deut. 4:2)

no! that last point was talking about not altering the law it wasnt talking about all scriptures because all that is scripture hadnt yet been given.

@Italo

I have just demostrated how what is contained in the bible can be used to knock off your technicalties! you see you catholics cant fool God,you knew deep in your mind that your religion is an embarrasement to God and a more embarrasement to jesus by substituting his role as a mediator with 'virgin Mary'.

and you guys are short on confidence but desperately seek to cover up your embarrasements,you seek for holes in argument,or just use anything mentioned in the bible to cover up,i.e, using the desperate action of joshua which God did not command in anyway,and unneccesary felling on his face which he would have saved himself had it been joshua followed God instruction and not act on his own,his fallen down before the ark is uncalled for in the first place,and even a dissobedience to God because God never commanded that,but instead of you to even understand the story, what you are interested in is ''the unwarranted prostration of joshua before the ark in disobedient'' what a shame! do we learn from obedient way or the disobedient way? i challenge you, are you guys been taught Gods word as it appeared in the scriptures or adulterated? know that you cant fool God,'obedient is better than sacrifice' samuel said.
@ubenedictus

u have decided to give a long story, u guy said worship means "to bow down and make supplication" just two questions all i need is yes or no! Did joshua bow down and make supplication b4 d ark?

see your life! in the first place,are you italo? italo ask me a question and i have answered him, he seems to get the point,and im not surprised that you are pained to the fact that i exposed the error of using the ''unwarranted prostration of joshua before the ark in disobedient''as your reason to clearly violate Gods law by making images of mary,something he did not command. and obviously if there is a shame,i think should go and cover your face due to the fact that your religion has been exposed!

2. If he did does that make him an idol worshipper? Yes or no!
Stop telling me stories i can read d stories myself frm my bible.

that is the 'bait' italo wanted to use,and it failed him,as it exposes his reason for mary's image!

the joy here is that i have expose the reason behind it,and it does not help your case but even ridicule the reason for your mary's image because it is''unwarranted prostration of joshua before the ark in disobedient''. only a fool will read the story and still bother to give a yes or no.

incase u missed it my friend mary is mentioned in d acts of the apostles

see your life here again!
why cant you quote the chapter and verse in the book of acts? where “Virgin Mary” mary is mentioned,again you are embarrased and i challenge you to quote it, ''virgin Mary''.

you are on ur own, d above is not a catholic teaching nobody is competing with Jesus. You are on ur own. U cant ask me to defend something my church doesnt believe, u ar on ur own.

read these again! you have not denied them;

“HAIL, HOLY QUEEN, Mother of Mercy, our life, our sweetness and our hope! To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve; to thee do we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping in this valley of tears.

[size=18pt]“Sustain us, O Virgin Mary,[/size] on our journey of faith and obtain for us the grace of eternal salvation.”

no! that last point was talking about not altering the law it wasnt talking about all scriptures because all that is scripture hadnt yet been given.

see your desperation, what of the last book of the bible see the warning pop-up again;
Revelation 22:18-19

18 For[a] I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book; 19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book[d] of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

this is the very reason why i said protestants should study a little history. The synod of rome and hippo decided what is called d christain bible about the 4th century. And macabees was among canon 36 http://www.cristoraul.com/ENGLISH/Reading-Hall-JWC/Western-Civilization-Jewels/HEFELE/Book-8/109.html cathage confirmed it and macabees was also among canon 24 http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/3816.htm from the till 1500AD Macabees was in all christian scripture and martin luther came in and saw that if he retain d deuterocanonical books he will be unable to win a biblical arguement so he removed them instead of 46 books he put 39 in his bible. And yet u dare to accuse the catholic church of adding books? No accuse ur protestant churches of removing books. And i repeat read a little history.

i think you need to read and read well,im making a case for 'sacred scriptures' and again is Maccabee part of the sacred scriptures? yes it is a scripture,but was is a sacred scripture? stop evading questions!

you know that you are toiling the embarrasing way of our discussion on trinity,if you can remenber until you got y'slf embarrased completely! until a catholic like you told you to hands off! that trinity was 'not defended in the bible' you thanked him and left,isnt it, now you are toiling that path!

@ Bernimoore, many words has no correlation with making sense.

If your definition of "worship" is 'bowing and making supplication', then Joshua and the Israelites worshipped the Ark of the Covenant.

But if your definition of "worship" is that one must do it in disobedience to God "as the Catholics do" (as you say), then you don't worship God. Because I'm sure your mode of worship doesn't suit this description.

Simple as that.

Or would you like to change your definition of "worship" just to cover your inadequate logic and nail the Catholics alone?

There is a high probability that the image catholics bow to could be the image of lucifer.

Who will prove me wrong
Not even the Pope can dare to try.

@Italo

If your definition of "worship" is 'bowing and making supplication', then Joshua and the Israelites worshipped the Ark of the Covenant.

you are making the same mistake you earlier made here again,and this is just the way people who are caged into a hole do,they are desperate!and so since you dont have a genuine reason,you tend to go round in circle.
I allude my defination of ''Worship''to a particular set of people, see it again,''

act of worship demands 'bowing or making supplications'Main clause

as the catholics do to their Mary statue

Sub-ordinate clause! the main clause rests on the sub-ordinate, so if you must quote my defination of 'worship' pls quote it in full this way below;
''act of worship demands 'bowing or making supplications' as the catholics do to their Mary statue''


Again;

If your definition of "worship" is 'bowing and making supplication', then Joshua and the Israelites worshipped the Ark of the Covenant

Can you read at all? joshua's case is totally different from my defination of worship,joshua fell on his face he prostrated,he is not on his feet,he 'felled' and that is quite different from someone 'on his feet but bowed',read again your quote again;

Joshua 7:6 Then Joshua tore his clothes and fell facedown to the ground before the ark of the Lord, remaining there till evening. The elders of Israel did the same, and sprinkled dust on their heads. 7 And Joshua said, “Alas, Sovereign Lord, why did you ever bring this people across the Jordan to deliver us into the hands of the Amorites to destroy us? If only we had been content to stay on the other side of the Jordan! 8 Pardon your servant, Lord. What can I say, now that Israel has been routed by its enemies? 9 The Canaanites and the other people of the country will hear about this and they will surround us and wipe out our name from the earth. What then will you do for your own great name?”

do you see 'fell' in my defination in the fisrt place? why are you forcefully putting words not contained in my defination and conclude it as a worship?

Even going by your logic,which i see does not help your case,

now that you can see that your bible quote up there at least it was you who quoted it and not me, josh 7:6; does not mention 'bow' but mentioned 'fell' which if we follow that strictly and going by my defination,im exonerated,that is ; joshua did not worship,or perform an act of worship.


technically,i have knocked you down again, pls read well before posting, ok!

many words has no correlation with making sense.

Note pls,im not expecting to make sense to people like you who have already 'made up their mind' to stick with idolatory, but my target is to expose your clear disobedince and violation to Gods command!

@ Bernimoore,

Firstly, I think its pathetic and disgraceful that you're trying to distinguish between "bowing" and 'falling prostrate' as regards worship. I could have expected something of that sort from Boomark or Plappville, but I thought higher of you... I thought wrong!

Your definition would then be contradictory to what is found in the Bible.

Rev 19:10: At this I fell at his feet to worship him.

But you say it is only when you bow that as the Catholics do, not when you fall, as Joshua did.

Also it would mean that you don't worship God, since you don't do "as the Catholics do" in.

Whichever way, your logic is wrong.

italo: @ Bernimoore,

Firstly, I think its pathetic and disgraceful that you're trying to distinguish between "bowing" and 'falling prostrate' as regards worship. I could have expected something of that sort from Boomark or Plappville, but I thought higher of you... I thought wrong!

Your definition would then be contradictory to what is found in the Bible.

Rev 19:10: At this I fell at his feet to worship him.

But you say it is only when you bow that as the Catholics do, not when you fall, as Joshua did.

Also it would mean that you don't worship God, since you don't do "as the Catholics do" in.

Whichever way, your logic is wrong.

I know you want to learn. We all are. My pastor cannot force or fashion my mode of thinking to believe in trinity if he has no valid proof. It is better to obey God rather than men.

Now look at this way.
Assuming the presence of God is in your room and He gave you a pillow.

You committed a great sin when you were away from home. On your way back to your house you were deeply grieved that you have sinned against God. On reaching your room, you rushed to you bed, fell on your face and started crying asking God to forgive you. Where you were lying on your face, the pillow He gave you is just opposite you as you where praying.

This is not the same as coming before the pillow, revering it to depict the presence of God, bowing to it, and asking it to pray for you. Any of these acts is wrong in the presence of God.

felling on your face is different from bowing to....

Worshiping God is done in spirit and in truth.

@Italo

Firstly, I think its pathetic and disgraceful that you're trying to distinguish between "bowing" and 'falling prostrate' as regards worship. I could have expected something of that sort from Boomark or Plappville, but I thought higher of you... I thought wrong!

Your definition would then be contradictory to what is found in the Bible.

Rev 19:10: At this I fell at his feet to worship him.

But you say it is only when you bow that as the Catholics do, not when you fall, as Joshua did.

Also it would mean that you don't worship God, since you don't do "as the Catholics do" in.

Whichever way, your logic is wrong.

is apostle john defining worship to suit your fraud? or he is humbly rejecting any form of worship!oooooh!just see yourself!

ha ha ha ha haaaaaaaaaaaaaa, i thought as much, you are only looking for holes and not to teach bible truth,ok!
lets see the whole verse that you deliberately chop, chop and chop so as to reduce to your own level,crimiminal!

rev 19:10

10[b] At this I fell at his feet to worship him.[/b] [size=14pt]But he said to me, “Don’t do that! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers and sisters who hold to the testimony of Jesus.[/size] [size=28pt]Worship God[/size]! For it is the Spirit of prophecy who bears testimony to Jesus.”

@@italo
can you see thst john reject the angel gesture?[size=14pt] something your greedy pope will take with ease oooleeeeeeeee! barawo banza! onyi oshi![/size] you guys dont read to understand i will mess you up,lets go now!