ACM10:
YES! There are signs which indicates that foetus is conscious of its life. Some of them are:

foetal heart rate

foetal kicks

etc.

But we should not attach sentiment to the issue of abortion. The issue should be left for women to decide. Cos women will ultimately bear the brunt of raising the kid.

look, i may not be a good biology student, but i've got my educated guesses and common sense. So, be sincere with me here. That the heart of a fetus beats or its legs kick, is biologically not an indication that the fetus is conscious of its life, but an indication that there is a life. So, don't mix-up things.

[quote author=CrazyMan]
premarital sex is a sin.

Looking from a non-religious perspective, it (premarital sex) can result in low self esteem, loss of respect for people, feeling guilty, stds, having no self control...etc.


I totally agree with you... Lack of self control has brought me many problems and pains. I use to be a very good Christian before, after i gave my life to Jesus Christ in 2004 i lived a good life untill 2011 when i met a Muslim lady (though, she has never done anything to seduced me, the whole thing was caused by me) i slept with her and since then i dont know what they call self-control. The pains sex has caused me is more than the joy i derived from it. Each time i give my life to Christ, i kept falling into sin again and again. Who can help me in this tereble situation i have found myself? I dont want to die in sin, because i HELL is real and HEAVEN is real, too. There is a girl living very close to my house, and way the structures of our is... Is a structures that even encourages sex. Is a very silent place and if a girl comes in people around will never know that a girl is inside the building. Girls that are afraid of there dad can easily come in even if thier dad is around... I truely loves Jesus and i want to be a good Chriatian that can say no to sex even if a woman is right in front of me.

ACM10:
Now, I want you to prove beyond doubt of the existence of soul by quoting any scientific literature or providing a proof.

Well, to be frank with you, I am not trying to impress you on my knowledge of the existence of soul. And the message is not evangelical. Scientific proof can be found in medical sciences. The ER Units have their fair share of information about near dead experiences. But lets look at Sleep Paralysis as a case study. I am very sure nearly every human being has experienced sleep paralysis and often think they are either dying or that witches and wizards are 'pressing' them. This is just the stage when the physical body and soul body goes out of alignment, it is the precursor of bilocation and soul travel. During Sleep paralysis, one can sense the environment and hear things but cant move the body, its an indication that, without the body, the physical body cant function. The awareness of the environment is what consciousness is, and its a function of the soul and goes with soul. Without soul, there is no awareness and we are termed dead, the awareness goes with the soul to ether and it takes us to concepts of ghosts etc. Its vast, very vast.

Billyonaire: I made it clear that we need to keep an open mind. Lecture burdens everyone. So let me make it simple. Soul enters a foetus at delivery at first breath of oxygen. And foetus becomes a child. But if for any reason, doctors decide to take the foetus out of the mother's womb, the first port of call is the Oxygenated life-support machine which is actually nothing more than a respiratory aid machine with pure oxygen going into the foetus, nature is purely scientific so I know more science than you actually give me credit for. Whether oxygen is breath naturally by a mature foetus at 9 months or its aided into the lungs at 5 months using life support machine then that foetus is alife and has soul. But abortions are not aided with life support machine, so the foetus are just not alive and has no soul. I hope you understand my explanation.

What a perverted logic!
It's on record that oxygen which gets to the baby through the placenta or lungs performs the same function in the body. I'm at a lost on why you should specifically ascribe the activation of the function of the lungs as soul. When we know that it is the continuation of the earlier function.

Your kidney underwent 3 stages before its final maturation.

Your heart undewent many syages before its final maturation.

Why should you single out the function of the lungs?
Why should you imply that the earlier functions are not important when it contributed immensely to your development?

Why should abortion be aided with life support? Does an executioner give food to his death inmate subject?

Billyonaire:

Well, to be frank with you, I am not trying to impress you on my knowledge of the existence of soul. And the message is not evangelical. Scientific proof can be found in medical sciences. The ER Units have their fair share of information about near dead experiences. But lets look at Sleep Paralysis as a case study. I am very sure nearly every human being has experienced sleep paralysis and often think they are either dying or that witches and wizards are 'pressing' them. This is just the stage when the physical body and soul body goes out of alignment, it is the precursor of bilocation and soul travel. During Sleep paralysis, one can sense the environment and hear things but cant move the body, its an indication that, without the body, the physical body cant function. The awareness of the environment is what consciousness is, and its a function of the soul and goes with soul. Without soul, there is no awareness and we are termed dead, the awareness goes with the soul to ether and it takes us to concepts of ghosts etc. Its vast, very vast.

Reticular activating system of the brain controls sleep-wake cycle. Switching off means sleep. It does not mean that the soul has deserted the body.

By the way, all these processes you described above are being controlled by some particular areas in the brain.

Shokoloko: When ur in the hospital and u can see ur baby's arms, legs, movements. When u can your baby kick, stretch, push, become restless when the weather is hot, u will know that the baby is not just an organ

My pen!s does all of that. My pen!s is just a part of my body. You've made no point

ACM10:
What a perverted logic!
It's on record that oxygen which gets to the baby through the placenta or lungs performs the same function in the body. I'm at a lost on why you should specifically ascribe the activation of the function of the lungs as soul. When we know that it is the continuation of the earlier function.

Your kidney underwent 3 stages before its final maturation.

Your heart undewent many syages before its final maturation.

Why should you single out the function of the lungs?
Why should you imply that the earlier functions are not important when it contributed immensely to your development?

Why should abortion be aided with life support? Does an executioner give food to his death inmate subject?

You can say oxides get into the body of the foetus via the placenta, not that oxygen is in the lungs on foetus. You are wrong my friend. The oxides are needed for metabolism and growth and development stages of the foetus. I will not love to argue on this.
The blood has oxygen in it, the oxides in the body comes from oxygen to execute those functions. But I understand that your knowledge of physical sciences is blinding your understanding of ethereal things. You digress a lot and you do not stick to the facts as it relates to abortion. I do not know how kidney and death-row stories relate to the discourse at hand. The air we breath is much more than you understand, and science has limit to where it can take you. For you to dwell on a limited knowledge is to limit your abilities to understand the mysteries of the universe and the scheme of things.

Lord Babs: look, i may not be a good biology student, but i've got my educated guesses and common sense. So, be sincere with me here. That the heart of a fetus beats or its legs kick, is biologically not an indication that the fetus is conscious of its life, but an indication that there is a life. So, don't mix-up things.

There are many other indication to determine if foetus is under stress.

In science, common sense does not always apply.

Finally, how do you respond to stress if your mouth is gagged with your hands tied to the back?

ACM10:
Reticular activating system of the brain controls sleep-wake cycle. Switching off means sleep. It does not mean that the soul has deserted the body.

By the way, all these processes you described above are being controlled by some particular areas in the brain.

I said SLEEP PARALYSIS, if you do not know what am talking about, you should please google it. I am not talking about the sleep-wake body clock mechanism. I will not argue about this. Because I spent a lot of dollars to get these discourses and the knowledge is not just out there. I am being generous sharing it on public forum. You can not know much more about Soul than someone who has been on astral projections, soul travel and as seen self as soul and light and travel at light speed across the galaxies. Lets not go there.

Red-Light:
well based on the topic.. am not fully an atheist but am not pro-anyreligion

and i think abortion is not killing as some people want us to believe
the foetus doesn't have life and doesn't have a soul yet ... all measure we take everyday to prevent pregnancy are also abortions in disguise ...using comdoms or masturbating, wasting spermm that could lead to pregnancy... their is no much difference from this sperms and the foetus.. both dont have life.. the only difference is that the sperm has developed in woman to foetus while comdoms or sprayed away sperm has being denied the opportunity to develop into foetus which could lead to babies

RED LIGHT! 
A fetus DOES HAVE LIFE. It's a human developing. So it has life.

Day 6:  embryo begins implantation in the uterus.
Day 22:  heart begins to beat with the child's own blood, often a different type than the mothers'.
Week 3:  By the end of third week the child's backbone spinal column and nervous system are forming.  The liver, kidneys and intestines begin to take shape.
Week 4:  By the end of week four the child is ten thousand times larger than the fertilized egg. 
Week 5:  Eyes, legs, and hands begin to develop.
Week 6:  Brain waves are detectable; mouth and lips are present; fingernails are forming.
Week 7:  Eyelids, and toes form, nose distinct.  The baby is kicking and swimming.
Week 8:  Every organ is in place, bones begin to replace cartilage, and fingerprints begin to form. By the 8th week the baby can begin to hear. 
Weeks 9 and 10:  Teeth begin to form, fingernails develop.  The baby can turn his head, and frown.  The baby can hiccup. 
Weeks 10 and 11:  The baby can "breathe" amniotic fluid and urinate.  Week 11 the baby can grasp objects placed in its hand; all organ systems are functioning.  The baby has a skeletal structure, nerves, and circulation.
Week 12:  The baby has all of the parts necessary to experience pain, including nerves, spinal cord, and thalamus.  Vocal cords are complete.  The baby can suck its thumb. 
Week 14:  At this age, the heart pumps several quarts of blood through the body every day.
Week 15:  The baby has an adult's taste buds.
Month 4:  Bone Marrow is now beginning to form.  The heart is pumping 25 quarts of blood a day.  By the end of month 4 the baby will be 8-10 inches in length and will weigh up to half a pound.
Week 17:  The baby can have dream  sleep. 
Week 19:  Babies can routinely be saved at 21 to 22 weeks after fertilization, and sometimes they can be saved even younger. 
Week 20:  The earliest stage at which Partial birth abortions are performed.  
At 20 weeks the baby recognizes its' mothers voice.
Months 5 and 6:  The baby practices breathing by inhaling amniotic fluid into its developing lungs. The baby will grasp at the umbilical cord when it feels it.  Most mothers feel an increase in movement, kicking, and hiccups from the baby.  Oil and sweat glands are now functioning.  The baby is now twelve inches long or more, and weighs up to one and a half pounds. 

A fetus is a seed developing to be a full human. That's a life. And after all this, killing it equals murder.

Billyonaire:

You can say oxides get into the body of the foetus via the placenta, not that oxygen is in the lungs on foetus. You are wrong my friend. The oxides are needed for metabolism and growth and development stages of the foetus. I will not love to argue on this.
The blood has oxygen in it, the oxides in the body comes from oxygen to execute those functions. But I understand that your knowledge of physical sciences is blinding your understanding of ethereal things. You digress a lot and you do not stick to the facts as it relates to abortion. I do not know how kidney and death-row stories relate to the discourse at hand. The air we breath is much more than you understand, and science has limit to where it can take you. For you to dwell on a limited knowledge is to limit your abilities to understand the mysteries of the universe and the scheme of things.

Wow! The oxygen made available to the foetus is in form of oxide, while that of a newborn baby is oxygen. This is new! You need to brush up with foetal respiratory physiology. Compare it to newborn respiratory physiology.

Treasure21:


RED LIGHT! http://www.gifs.net/Animation11/Transportation/Signs_and_Signals/Stop_2.gif
A fetus DOES HAVE LIFE. It's a human developing. So it has life.

Day 6:  embryo begins implantation in the uterus.
Day 22:  heart begins to beat with the child's own blood, often a different type than the mothers'.
Week 3:  By the end of third week the child's backbone spinal column and nervous system are forming.  The liver, kidneys and intestines begin to take shape.
Week 4:  By the end of week four the child is ten thousand times larger than the fertilized egg. 
Week 5:  Eyes, legs, and hands begin to develop.
Week 6:  Brain waves are detectable; mouth and lips are present; fingernails are forming.
Week 7:  Eyelids, and toes form, nose distinct.  The baby is kicking and swimming.
Week 8:  Every organ is in place, bones begin to replace cartilage, and fingerprints begin to form. By the 8th week the baby can begin to hear. 
Weeks 9 and 10:  Teeth begin to form, fingernails develop.  The baby can turn his head, and frown.  The baby can hiccup. 
Weeks 10 and 11:  The baby can "breathe" amniotic fluid and urinate.  Week 11 the baby can grasp objects placed in its hand; all organ systems are functioning.  The baby has a skeletal structure, nerves, and circulation.
Week 12:  The baby has all of the parts necessary to experience pain, including nerves, spinal cord, and thalamus.  Vocal cords are complete.  The baby can suck its thumb. 
Week 14:  At this age, the heart pumps several quarts of blood through the body every day.
Week 15:  The baby has an adult's taste buds.
Month 4:  Bone Marrow is now beginning to form.  The heart is pumping 25 quarts of blood a day.  By the end of month 4 the baby will be 8-10 inches in length and will weigh up to half a pound.
Week 17:  The baby can have dream  sleep. 
Week 19:  Babies can routinely be saved at 21 to 22 weeks after fertilization, and sometimes they can be saved even younger. 
Week 20:  The earliest stage at which Partial birth abortions are performed.  
At 20 weeks the baby recognizes its' mothers voice.
Months 5 and 6:  The baby practices breathing by inhaling amniotic fluid into its developing lungs. The baby will grasp at the umbilical cord when it feels it.  Most mothers feel an increase in movement, kicking, and hiccups from the baby.  Oil and sweat glands are now functioning.  The baby is now twelve inches long or more, and weighs up to one and a half pounds. 

A fetus is a seed developing to be a full human. That's a life. And after all this, killing it equals murder.

At #5, change that breathe amniotic fluid. You cant 'breathe' fluid, oxygen from the mom goes into the blood stream for the functions of growth and metabolism. Its not breathing per sae. Dont believe every junk written out there by ANTI-ABORTION crusaders. I guess internet age is dangerous for truism.

Does it make sense?

Billyonaire: I said SLEEP PARALYSIS, if you do not know what am talking about, you should please google it. I am not talking about the sleep-wake body clock mechanism. I will not argue about this. Because I spent a lot of dollars to get these discourses and the knowledge is not just out there. I am being generous sharing it on public forum. You can not know much more about Soul than someone who has been on astral projections, soul travel and as seen self as soul and light and travel at light speed across the galaxies. Lets not go there.

Now I know where you are coming from. I suspected that you are a grail message follower. You debates like them. I will tone down the debate at this point.

By the way, which drug did u use for your astral travel? Angel dust?!

ACM10:
Wow! The oxygen made available to the foetus is in form of oxide, while that of a newborn baby is oxygen. This is new! You need to brush up with foetal respiratory physiology. Compare it to newborn respiratory physiology.

I rest my case and let you believe what ever you want to. Abortion is never against any known natural laws. Soul can not be created nor destroyed cos its energy. And enters the body at first breathe of air at child birth, and kick starts the heart, activates the brains, makes the body mitochondria vibrate once in every 4 seconds and continues this till time of death. Before the first breath, there is no independent life and after the last breath, soul dwells on ether.

sammy329: Does it make sense?

No!!!! because it is misrepresented

Most countries work with an average of 12 weeks. A period by which most women will already know they are pregnant and have the option to keep or not.

at 12weeks(3months) a baby looks nothing like that

ACM10:
Now I know where you are coming from. I suspected that you are a grail message follower. You debates like them. I will tone down the debate at this point.
By the way, which drug did u use for your astral travel? Angel dust?!

You insult me by talking about drugs, and also insulted Grail Message by sounding convictions you know nothing about. Anyway, I will really love to answer you politely even though I understand you are not a gentleman. No, I do not use drugs - that will be hallucination and although I have read the works of Abdul Sheen on the Grail Message, I do not buy their analysis of the psychic nature of man.

ACM10:
There are many other indication to determine if foetus is under stress.

In science, common sense does not always apply.

Finally, how do you respond to stress if your mouth is gagged with your hands tied to the back?

please stop this kill-me-I-stand attitude. You talk of stress of the foetus, precipitating its kicking...bla..bla...bla. So, when the baby is eventually born and placed on a cradle, why does it still stretch, kick...is it still under stress? Stress or no stress, your assumption that the foetus is conscious of its life is flawed. You'll also have to answer for the neurological state of that foetus...does it have a brain yet? If it does, is the brain developed enough to percieve or be conscious of its enviroment? And by the way, that analogy(about I being gagged) is incongrous, because i'm fully conscious of my state.

Billyonaire: You insult me by talking about drugs, and also insulted Grail Message by sounding convictions you know nothing about. Anyway, I will really love to answer you politely even though I understand you are not a gentleman. No, I do not use drugs - that will be hallucination and although I have read the works of Abdul Sheen on the Grail Message, I do not buy their analysis of the psychic nature of man.

My apology for the insult

interesting..

***bookmarked***

will brb.

Billyonaire:

At #5, change that breathe amniotic fluid. You cant 'breathe' fluid, oxygen from the mom goes into the blood stream for the functions of growth and metabolism. Its not breathing per sae. Dont believe every junk written out there by ANTI-ABORTION crusaders. I guess internet age is dangerous for truism.

Yeah how babies breath in the womb is always a wonder. Some say they breathe amniotic fluids. But your wrong on your comment. Fetuses DO get oxygen from their mother, they also get their food & nutrients the same way. While in the womb the lungs are filled with fluid and are not involved on supplying oxygen to his/her body.

@topic, atheism and morality are two distinctly separate thought systems. None can be equated to the other. An atheist may or may not conform to a certain moral conduct.

Abortion should not be legal... its murder, if you were aborted you wouldnt be alive, its better to decide not to have children at all than aborting

This abortion debate has been overflogged on this nairaland religious section, just like tithes, so the arguments are just being recycled.

I have said it again and again that nobody has the right to dictate what a woman does with her body. I mean a young, free and single legal adult woman. It might be painful for the theists to accept but you cannot hold others to your own personal moral prejudices and preferences. As long as she is within the confines of the laws of her society (that is in secular societies).

It is laughable when someone refer to abortion of a baby to murdering of the baby. They need to check their dictionary to learn what it means to abort a process.

Even in commonsense English, when a woman discovers she is pregnant, she say i am going to have a baby, and not i already have a baby. A pregnancy becomes a baby the second it leaves the mothers body and is capable of independent existence. Till then it is an organ like any other organ in her body. And can decide to remove it if she does not want it. She can even decide to remove the whole womb or her breasts if she chooses. It does not affect onlooking strangers in anyway.

Some take the moral high ground of questioning the sexu.al life of others. What is you concern about who others decide to sleep with? As long as it is done within the confines of their private spaces, and the consequences is their to bear and does not affect others, then it is non of your business.

If you decide to wait until your thirties before having se.x, good for you. But someone who decides to do it at the legal age of 21 owes you (or your god) no apologies.

*Kails*:


I understand that.
That too is a mystery for me...
I was debating the notion that there is no such thing as a soul.

Anyway...i was checking out this site earlier:

http://www.babycenter.com/fetal-development-week-by-week

i think people should check it out first before speaking on this issue.
what i got from it is that the human baby's organs are not fully developed prior to the first month with the exception of the heart which will beat by week 9.

Now as you said we don't know when the "soul" enters the body and that is the troubling part.

9 weeks ke? The fetus heart is already beating at 22 days. The fetus may not be fully developed but the fact that it's heart is beating that early is a sign of "life"
When the soul enters the body? It's been said that "He will be filled with the Holy Spirit from the time he is born. From the moment he leaves his mother's womb."
~ Luke: 1: 15

Crazyman where are you please?

There's no point in this arguements.

Life is a matter of choices.
For each step you take in life, you know the consequences...
Each time we have unprotected sex we all know the likely result!
If the result is pregnancy and you're ready...fine!
If you're not ready for the pregnancy... It is only wise that you abort it
Carrying a baby for nine months is nothing compared to raising and caring for a child for 20yrs
It doesnt just end at delivering the baby, you're in for a life-long job.

I believe anybody in his right senses will know the wise decision to take after considering the above stated
Personally, i'm a huge fan of contraceptives

Lord Babs: seconded. Consider a girl who discovers she's pregnant, and in the bid to extirpate the damn bæstard, uses several corrosive drugs and yet the bæstard says NO SHAKING! My medical knowledge tells me those drugs could have(even sometimes vastly) affected the foetûs, leading to varying physiological and psychological deficiencies, at the bæstard's eventual birth. In this case, a surgical abortion would be the best option, lest you birth a dûnce like Gej...lol!

haba, respect the president for he is not our mate pls.

wirinet: This abortion debate has been overflogged on this nairaland religious section, just like tithes, so the arguments are just being recycled.

I have said it again and again that nobody has the right to dictate what a woman does with her body. I mean a young, free and single legal adult woman. It might be painful for the theists to accept but you cannot hold others to your own personal moral prejudices and preferences. As long as she is within the confines of the laws of her society (that is in secular societies).

It is laughable when someone refer to abortion of a baby to murdering of the baby. They need to check their dictionary to learn what it means to abort a process.

Even in commonsense English, when a woman discovers she is pregnant, she say i am going to have a baby, and not i already have a baby. A pregnancy becomes a baby the second it leaves the mothers body and is capable of independent existence. Till then it is an organ like any other organ in her body. And can decide to remove it if she does not want it. She can even decide to remove the whole womb or her breasts if she chooses. It does not affect onlooking strangers in anyway.

Some take the moral high ground of questioning the sexu.al life of others. What is you concern about who others decide to sleep with? As long as it is done within the confines of their private spaces, and the consequences is their to bear and does not affect others, then it is non of your business.

If you decide to wait until your thirties before having se.x, good for you. But someone who decides to do it at the legal age of 21 owes you (or your god) no apologies.

Chai oga!
Where have you been?

Fine! Let abortion be legalised.

However let the woman see an ultrasound image of her baby and hear her baby's heartbeat before signing the abortion authorization papers. If she's human I don't think she'd sign it. If not, then its better the baby don't have a devil for a mum.

When ur in the hospital and u can see ur baby's arms, legs, movements. When u can your baby kick, stretch, push, become restless when the weather is hot, u will know that the baby is not just an organ

Lord Babs: thank you. Even me sef don sincerely challenged my mama before say why she no abort my pregnancy. She com born me for inside dis damn world of confusion. Haba!

Nobody force them oh! You go see pikin dey sell groundnut for street, who force the parents make them get pikin before them prepare? And somehow these slav... kids are supposed to be grateful?

I did not ask anyone to born me, I don't owe any one any particular favors (my parents just happen to be sweet, any love I have for them is not forced because they 'gave' me life I should be grateful for, it's because I genuinely like them). If I have kids, I'll recognize it's my responsibility to take care of them. Turning them into street hawkers, not sending them to school, etc, frankly neglect like these should be criminal offenses.