8If anyone does not provide for his relatives, and especially for his immediate family, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever

Well, I wished the church preached more of this, and I am glad to have this push me to further support my immediate family.

But I am sure, more and more people feel responsible for their church, than their immediate family, since they believe supporting their local church through tithes and offerings will only magically bring more pepper into their pocket, but from the above verse it only tells you that God really wants us to love those around us more!

uf4oma:

Well said, brother.

@poster, you need to be open to the Spirit and teachable. That's the hallmark of true faith. No one is insisting you should tithe but you seem to be propagating a gospel of 'thou shall not tithe' to others. That's wrong. Jesus said our righteousness should exceed that of the Pharisees. For all that was wrong about the Pharisees, they kept the law to the letter and even though their hearts were not right before God, they were sticklers for the letter of the law. If our righteousness has to exceed theirs, then we definitely have to do more than they did. Tithing is good and has blessings attached to it. Nothing in God's word is bad and we should not run around telling people not to carry out any part of God's word. If the problem is with the misusing of the tithe by some so-called pastors, those same people will equally abuse any kind of giving. And the abuse of wealth by pastors in the church is a different matter in itself. Let's be careful the sort of things we preach.

@ufoma
I think you are the one that needs to open your spirit to knowledge, first of all you have to disabuse your mind of the mythes and fiction about tithe that you have been manipulated in to believing over the years. Then go and study what the bible says about tithes that your pastors have refused to tell you. You see my argument is not even wether you should pay tithes or not, what i am saying is that tithing as it is defined and practised in the church today is completely unscriptural and has no resemblance to the tithes that was practised in the bible by the people of Israel. That argument has been clearly established in Deuteronomy 14 : 22-28 (pls read it again) and pray for understanding as you read it. If after you read it you still feel it means paying 10% of your income to the church all well and good. Point of note how come pastors when they are preaching about tithes (a favourite topic) it is only Malachi 3 :10 they quote? the passage does not even define tithes. it merely only urges the people of Israel to bring (not pay) their tithes to the house of God so there would be [/b]food[b] in God's house. I wonder how this came to be interpretd to be 10% of income. How come all the various passages that define tithes are conviniently ignored and the only one that does not define it ( malachi 3 ; 10)is the one always quoted. Is it not soooo very obvious that your pastor does not want you to know the true meaning of tithes other wise why do they withold this information, I challenge you to go and quote deut 14 : 22-28 toyour pastor, maybe he/she would be able to "teach" you the "spiritual" interpretation of it then you would be able to share it with us on nairaland and maybe just maybe i might also start paying tithes to your pastor.

Uhhh! Some people's minds are made up . . . just like Pharaoh!
Has not paying tithes ever make them richer?

Come to think of it, why should tithe payment cause a migraine headache if truely they are a free-will offering givers?
If KunleOshob and his cohort believe in free-will givings while not freely allowed those who are willing to pay their tithes as their own free-will?
But they are only looking for more innocent souls to join their selfish and miserly crusade
He who can't give that which is commanded, can never give rightly that which is self-ruled.
Man is naturally born to be selfish with the thoughts of I & I alone!
Do'nt be decieved, these are poor minds' toast!

Excuse me, I hope your comments are not directed to me.

I will advise you to be very careful about your comments, especially when they are conclusive criticism about personal character.

Listen carefully, I have specifically elaborated what I have read, and also why I believe this is the way God wants it, even before this thread ever started!!!. and in simple language I have made it clear, why I feel it's very important that people really begin to show more love to those around them! than feel compelled they have done that financially through tithes payment, thereby satisfying a certain group!

If however, you do not agree, and cannot give sound basic facts to disagree, then you should please rather keep shut!, because assuming, one is selfish is a big leap!!!,  a very big leap!!! without basis!

My people perish due to their open minded ness, I doubt you really ever think about all that have been said so far.

Simply visit www.google.com and type: tithes in churches and see the feedback for yourself!!!!,

anonimi:

will you say your post above is not an attack on someone who has a different opinion from yours on this tithe matter

nne uf4oma,

i still dey wait your response to the above question.
except you want us to conclude that your silence means consent.
have a blessed day.

detruth:

Uhhh! Some people's minds are made up . . . just like Pharaoh!
Has not paying tithes ever make them richer?
Come to think of it, why should tithe payment cause a migraine headache if truely they are a free-will offering givers?
If KunleOshob and his cohort believe in free-will givings while not freely allowed those who are willing to pay their tithes as their own free-will?
But they are only looking for more innocent souls to join their selfish and miserly crusade
He who can't give that which is commanded, can never give rightly that which is self-ruled.
Man is naturally born to be selfish with the thoughts of I & I alone!
Do'nt be decieved, these are poor minds' toast!

my dear friend detruth,

all these gra gra no be am.
instead make you show us conclusively in the Bible where tithe is required of CHRISTians you dey here dey harrass people that have taken it upon themselves to lead others to the Scriptural wholesome truth about this issue
Meanwhile most pastors (and I suspect you are either one already, closely related to one or aspiring to be soon) are placing this yoke and guilt burden for selfish, self-serving reasons for which they will receive their full condemnation in due season.
I strongly encourage us ALL to open our eyes & mind, read & study our bible EXTENSIVELY to understand FULLY Christ's message to His church and save ourselves from people out to bamboozle us.
2 Timothy 2 verse 15 says:

Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth

shalom.

@anonimi
thanx for that very precise response to de "truth" .
@de "truth"
There is enough strong biblical evidence that we have posted on this thread that establishes that tithing as is being practised in the church today is completely unscriptural and is not even required of us as christians. None of which you have been able to respond to. If you have any superior argument as to why we should tithe as christians, i suggest you share it here with fellow christians instead of just trying to bambuzoo us into beleieving tithing as practised in churches today is scriptural. On the issue of allowing people to pay there tithes, i have no qualms with that. even if someone decides to give 100% of his salary to the church no problem. the problem i have is the grand deception that is going on in the church today all in the name of self enrichment. I want people to know the real truth about tithes so no one is unnecessarily burdened or placed under a guilt trap becos they are trying to do what GOD did not request of them.

its unfortunate that rather to accept your weakness as being too"greedy" like many of us to pay your tithe faithfully and conscientiously, you are looking for a faulty technical theology (that obviously do not hold any water) to hide behind. Suffix it to say that tithing is biblical, scriptural and requested by God from us. you may check out Malachi 3:8-12, for a start. wishing you enlightenment from the deceit of devil.

@sirabbey
Obviously you just jumped into this thread and decided to just post your comment ingnorantly wihout bothering to read the previous posts on the thread. The fact that some of us have refused to be gullible like you and we have studied the true word of God as regarding tithes does not make us greedy, on the contrary it is those of you who feel they are under compulsion to pay tithes that are the real munguns. For you to be quoting Malachi 3: 8-11 at this stage of this thread just expresses that you don't have a clue as to all we have been discussing on the thread. I suggest you go and read the original post with your bible in hand so as to verify all the quoted scriptures that explains tithes properly and stop expressing your ignorance arrogantly.
It is actually the arguments that you should pay tithes that is faulty technical theology, this is because there is no were in the bible that tithes is defined the way it is being practised today. So tithers come up with such silly deuctions that since most of us are not farmers today we can use money instead of produce of the land as directed in the bible, they claim that pastors represents levites today, so they can collect tithes. nothing can be further from the truth because levites were the descendants of Levi whom God had a covenant with and only his descendants could be levites. But today some people give you faulty technical thology that says pastors are levites so they can collect tithes.

KunleOshob:

they claim that pastors represents levites today, so they can collect tithes. nothing can be further from the truth because levites were the descendants of Levi whom God had a covenant with and only his descendants could be levites. But today some people give you faulty technical thology that says pastors are levites so they can collect tithes.

Without any contradiction, tithes are never meant for the Pastor's pocket, God commanded it for His storehouse, meaning it is meant to be used in running the Church affairs (including the Pastor's salary) under a well organised management team. Notwithstanding, I find your conclusion faulty and fallible in the sense that if Pastors does not represent Levites, then it means Jesus only died for the Jews.

Rom 2:27-29
27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?
28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God
KJV

detruth,

Your quote contains no reference/linkage, explit or implicit, of pastors of CHRISTian churches being levites. Maybe you quoted a wrong text, please check and post again.
However, it may be worthwhile to note that Paul's Epistles to non-Jews such as Romans was aimed at showing them (us) that Christ's salvation work was also to benefit us Gentiles whether we are physically circumcised or not. Compare the theme that runs through the whole of Romans with that of Hebrews.
BTW, you seem to have conveniently ignored Paul's unequivocal, clear and unambiguous assertion that Christ is NOT of the Levite order as it is very inferior to His in Hebrews 7 verses:

11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?
12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.
13 For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar.
14 For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.
15 And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest,
16 Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.
17 For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

My only sincere hope is that your ignoring the above text, addressed to Jews like Paul who fully understood the historical priestlhood context was not deliberate.
Shalom.

@anonimi
God bless you.

detruth:

Without any contradiction, tithes are never meant for the Pastor's pocket, God commanded it for His storehouse, meaning it is meant to be used in running the Church affairs (including the Pastor's salary) under a well organised management team. Notwithstanding, I find your conclusion faulty and fallible in the sense that if Pastors does not represent Levites, then it means Jesus only died for the Jews.

Without any contracdiction also tithes was meant to be food. If you go and read your favourite malachi passage again, it said "let there be food in my storehouse" some versions say "let there be meat in my store house". i wonder how this came to be interpreted to be money becos contrary to the deception tithe promoters spread, money was already widely in use by the jews at that time so if money was tithable it would have been clearly mentioned. And the reason given by God for the tithes being taken to the storehouse was becos the levites/priest had no land of there own so they could not produce any food, it was never implied or stated that it was meant for the running of the church as you would want us to believe. that is what offerings are meant for. On who levites are, saying that pastors represent levites only demonstrate your poor understanding of the bible. The Levites (descendants of Levi) is one of the twelve tribes of israel and they were directed by God to be the only oness who could serve in his place of worship. In short they were church workers which included alter boys, sacrifice attendants, cleaners, choir, ushers e.tc. it was from amongst that tribe as well that the priest was chosen. The point i am making most levites were not even priest or pastors, they were mostly church workers. How many church workers today get a share of the "tithes" My friend i think you really need to study your bible well and pray for understanding b4 you start coming to distort the bible on nairaland.

We all live on the faith of baba God, the church is the epitom of faith propagation, I am positive without tithes they can do very well on the grace of God!

anonimi:

BTW, you seem to have conveniently ignored Paul's unequivocal, clear and unambiguous assertion that Christ is NOT of the Levite order as it is very inferior to His in Hebrews 7 verses:
11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?
12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.
13 For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar.
14 For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.
15 And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest,
16 Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.
17 For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
My only sincere hope is that your ignoring the above text, addressed to Jews like Paul who fully understood the historical priestlhood context was not deliberate.
Shalom.

@anonimi
My dear friend, thank God for your Bible passage, as clearly seen from your quoted scripture my conclusion remains that either the Levite according to the old testament or Melchisedec according to the new order of Priesthood, both of them collected tithes.
Heb 7:1-2
1 For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him;
2 To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace;
KJV
Thanks so much for your sincerity!

@Kunleoshob
Why do you babble so much? I can see your mind mixed with confusion due to carnal interpretation of scriptures, hence you called Levites (such represented by Aaron and Melchisedec) as cleaners and altar boys.
If indeed tithe then were meant to be food items, what about offerings? Were they not mostly inform of food materials also? Were they not bullocks, oxen and birds whose fats are used for peace and burnt offerings?

Ex 20:24
24 An altar of earth thou shalt make unto me, and shalt sacrifice thereon thy burnt offerings, and thy peace offerings, thy sheep, and thine oxen: in all places where I record my name I will come unto thee, and I will bless thee.[/i]KJV
[b]Lev 22:17-24
[i]The LORD said to Moses, 18 "Speak to Aaron and his sons and to all the Israelites and say to them: `If any of you--either an Israelite or an alien living in Israel--presents a gift for a burnt offering to the LORD, either to fulfill a vow or as a freewill offering, 19 you must present a male without defect from the cattle, sheep or goats in order that it may be accepted on your behalf. 20 Do not bring anything with a defect, because it will not be accepted on your behalf. 21 When anyone brings from the herd or flock a fellowship offering to the LORD to fulfill a special vow or as a freewill offering, it must be without defect or blemish to be acceptable. 22 Do not offer to the LORD the blind, the injured or the maimed, or anything with warts or festering or running sores. Do not place any of these on the altar as an offering made to the LORD by fire. 23 You may, however, present as a freewill offering an ox or a sheep that is deformed or stunted, but it will not be accepted in fulfillment of a vow. NIV[/b]

You may tell us perhap your own Pastor (if you have any) still collect your free-offering in form of bullocks and fat of ram today in order to run their church. (what an emergency of new testament "babalawos"!)
But why did you think this free-will offering can be money, and tithe should not be? You lost the understanding that tithe is the ten percent of your increase which in our present time is mostly in money form. This one thing you need to know that the reason for not giving your so much emphasized freewill offering as fat of rams today, is also what make us to be paying our own tithes in cash today.
God now increase and bless us in cash and not in rams, doves, wheat or whatever.
Nevertheless, it seems you are enjoying this your born contradiction, sorry! not at the contribution of my time again!

detruth,

First of all, I am sure you realise that Abraham's offering, which happened to be a tenth part of his war booty does NOT constitute a tithe as it was a one-off gift. You may want to point out any other text that talks about Abraham giving a tenth again.
Secondly what does verse 12 of the Hebrews7 say:
For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.
What law is reffered to:
The law of tithe described in the preceeding 11 verses.
I think you should read your post quoted hereunder again:

I can see your mind mixed with confusion due to carnal interpretation of scriptures, hence you called Levites (such represented by Aaron and Melchisedec)

I hope you are not the one who is either confused or trying to confuse others for whatever motive when you insinuate that Levites are represented by Aaron and Melchisedec despite Paul's clear message on this subject.
I wonder if you are trying to say Paul in view of his Jewish learned zealot background did not know the order of priesthood and how Jesus fits in or does not to the previously existing order. Kindly note that Jesus Christ "arrested" Paul and chose him to spread the Gospel particularly beyond Jerusalem because he was eminently qualified all-round to do so.

BTW, Abraham's offering of one tenth of his war proceeds is similar to the vow made by Jacob in Genesis 28 verses

18 And Jacob rose up early in the morning, and took the stone that he had put for his pillows, and set it up for a pillar, and poured oil upon the top of it.
19 And he called the name of that place Bethel: but the name of that city was called Luz at the first.
20 And Jacob vowed a vow, saying, If God will be with me, and will keep me in this way that I go, and will give me bread to eat, and raiment to put on,
21 So that I come again to my father's house in peace; then shall the Lord be my God:
22 And this stone, which I have set for a pillar, shall be God's house: and of all that thou shalt give me I will surely give the tenth unto thee.

Did he make a practice of paying a tenth every week, month or year before or after this vow?
And this Jacob is teh one whose name was changed to Israel by God.

@anonimi
I have come to the conclusion that our friend the so called "de truth" knows the real truth about tithes but he chooses to ignore it not with all the posts on this thread especailly hebrews 7 : 11- 13 which puts a nail on the coffin for any christian still arguing that tithe is biblical. but he chooses to ignore them. he as deuteronomy that explains the true meaning and administration of tithes by the Israelites but he chooses to ignore it. He is more comfortable with concoctions and fabrications that don't even relate to tithes. he then quotes the bible out of context copiously to bamboozoo unsuspecting readers while trying to prove a point that doesn't exist. He never bothers to address real issues that we raise. can you imagine him calling Melchizedec a levite and he claims to have spiritual knowledge of the bible.

@"detruth"
You have just convinced me that your understanding of the bible is very poor  and at best you are a pagan christian hence the discrimination you just infered to being an alter boy or cleaner  in the house of God. It is actually honourable to be a cleaner in the house of God and some of us take pride in assisting to clean the church when the opportunity arises. Obiviously you don't understand who the Levites were or their role. To understand this i suggest you go and read (study) the books of Leviticus and numbers properly then you would understand who the levites are and the difference between a levite and a priest(emphasis numbers 18 :25-26). (Not all levies are priest) but to enlighten you a bit before your study let me remind you that the levites were a whole tribe in Israel, there is no way they could all have been priest. They served God in various capacities in the temple, they were all churh workers they gave attendance at the alter and cleaned up the temple after sacrifies (which was a daily occurence) . As i said to you earlier i think you should be studying your bible well before writing your fictions and fallacies on nairaland. we are not fools on this forum

One man believes has conviction that the payment of tithes is mandatory while another man is having his own conviction that it is not.
This to me is not enough reason to be confronting one another with malicious words in a forum like this.
The TRUTH of the matter is sipmly that the LAW OF TITHING does not apply to XTIANITY. However, if any xtian chooses to be paying 10% of his income to God via church/pastor, he will surely reap God's blessings for so doing.
People should also note that Matthew 23:23 earlier on referred to by some people in this forum, which they also interpreted to mean that Jesus "commended the Pharisees for paying tithes and rebuked them for omitting or failing to do the weightier matter of the law" was as at the period the law was still in operation. Jesus,therefore, would not object in anyway the payment of tithes or tell people to stop paying tithes because the people then were still operating under the OLD TESTAMENT and it is also a form of giving to God/men.
THE NEW TESTAMENT/CHRISTIANITY began after the death of Jesus Christ- our Testator- on the cross. Then the law and the curses of the law ceased to operate beacuse we now have the fulfilment of the law in JESUS CHRIST HIMSELF.

BELOW IS MY SUBMISSION ABOUT THIS TOPIC:

* The leaders of the early church ( born after the death of Jesus Christ,pricesely on the day of penticost in the Acts of Apostles) never at any time placed/read curses on believers for not paying tithes but ENCOURAGED BELIEVERS TO GIVE GENEROUSLY TO GOD & GOD'S PEOPLE without compulsion but out of a willing heart because they new that the more you give,whether 5%,10%,15%,20% , , the more you recieve God's blessing: ", he who sows sparingly,shall reap sparingly, he who sows bountifully shall also reap bountifully, "
Therefore, let all our fathers in the Lord,pastors/church leaders, stop pronouncing/reading curses to the congregation of God's people on the issue of tithing but rather encourage believers to give generously ang cheerfully " , for God loves a cheerful giver."
* Let those who have been faithful/regular payer of tithes keep it up while seeing this practice as a devotion/service/worship to God rather than something they must observed by compulsion if they are to evade the curse attached to it by the law.
* Let those who have been hiding under the umbrella of the saying that "xtians are not mandated to pay tithes" and as a result are being stingy as in not fulfilling their financial obligations to their pastors/church, go and pray that God should forgive them for such attitude of ingratitude to God & men.
* Let everyone go and learn to give generously,cheerfully( not because of curses), and bountifully to God's works, pastors, orphans, widows, and the needy. They will surely reap bountifully. ", he that sows sraringly shall reap sraringly, and he that sows bountifully shall also reap bountifully."
* Let every xtian learn to read GOD'S WORD without PUTTING ON RELIGIOUS GOGGLE: Read the Bible with an open mind and stop reading to criticise/judge other xtians because we are not called to criticise/judge one another.
Thanks.

its taken me a few days to go through this most educating thread and i must confess im deeply thrilled that we have people who have enough guts to chalenge convention and mass beliefs. @Kunleoshob, great work/research, lets just be open minded to learn. I have often had nagging questions in my mind about tithing that the poster addressed so effectively, i feel free, Its so easy for our indoctrinations to take the form of wariness or even anger at any new discovery in the bible,
Niw i still thiink the summary is what our dear friend, dammy4u has so beautifully enunciated, One thing is clear though, we live in a generation that is more centered on men of God rather than God and this same generation has fears or being told that what they have always believed may be wrong, may God open the eyes of our understanding and illuminate all the files we have encoded in our minds that have been compromised by the need for financial survival of churches.

@dammy4u
First of all i would like to thank you for your counsel that it is not right for us as christians to be arguing on a forum like this, i must confess that i got carried away sometimes while posting and i attacked various persons that had different views form what had, i continue to pray for understanding and tolerance. I must commend the very mature and precise way in which you have summarised what we have been arguing about all this while. In fact i must confess that you have been able to summarise what i have been trying to say far better than i have been able to and hit the nail on the head. May God continue to bless you and enrich you spiritually.

reindeer:


Niw i still thiink the summary is what our dear friend, dammy4u has so beautifully enunciated, One thing is clear though, we live in a generation that is more centered on men of God rather than God and this same generation has fears or being told that what they have always believed may be wrong, may God open the eyes of our understanding and illuminate all the files we have encoded in our minds that have been compromised by the need for financial survival of churches.

@reindeer
thanx for the above statements, i think that is one of the biggest problems of the church today and it is being caused and promoted by church leaders i believe as christians we should focus more on God than our pastors but today it is the other way round and our pastors and sub consiously encouraging it.

@ Kunle;
see what ever you do your service and acts is not to man, even if what he does is to use your money for his own gain ,your deal is with God, and besides from your post looks like you dont even believe in paying tithes, then also i can assume you dont believe in offerings and givings not to talk of seed sowing. but i would tell you tthis scripture says; he who is doing good, let him keep doing it, and not be wary, for in due season he shall reap, you dont need to go ask him what he is donig with the money you pay, you have done your duty with God, it is not your concern what is being done with it. God's relationship and dealing is with you not with you, your pastor and whoever else, its between you and him. Do you have to wait till the bible tells you before you eat, or before you work, or before you give to that person on your street who you know really needs it. there are times you just feel in your spirit to give to someone, it is not your business to know what he or she wants to do with it, yours is that you have done your reasonable service to him who sent you, and definitely you will reap that which you sow. Why not tell the farmer to ask the ground what it is doing with his seed in the first one year after he has planted the cocoa he could have eaten with his family. you dont need to know what it has done with it, you just need to know that there is a laaw that says if you sow you will definitely reap. Tithe is not between you your pastor and God, its betwwen you and God, the only thing that involves yuor pastor is that God will not come down to collect your tithe, just like he will not come downm to hand you a million dollars. it has to involve someone.

@lystola
Judging form your comments, i can conclude you have not read my posts properly or you don't understand them. I don't have any problem with free will generous christian giving as you suggested, infact i encourage it. I have been consistent in my posts that tithes as is being preached in churches today is completely unscriptural and is not required of us as christians by God. I have also quoted sevveral scriptures to support this argument, so please go and read the thread again, probably from the very first post, then you would have a clearer understanding of what i am saying. the question you should be asking is why are christian leaders deliberately mis leading the church in the name of tithing when there is enough biblical evidence to establish that it is not required of us as christians.

Kunle:
in respect to what you just said, i would say i agree, cos i have seen situations where the pastor becomes God to the congregation, he is untouchable, unapproachable. God is to remain God, a pastor is only there to be a person who takes responsibility for the rest, not an intermidiary between God and the people. in fact i would put it as this, the Leadership of the pator is simply related to the Leading Sheep, cos the pastor himself is another sheep in God's flock so wats makes him a shepherd ifg he is also a sheep. to me, a pastor words and vision or watever about a person should only be a confirmation of what God has told you personally, oyu dont just wake up and the pastor comes to tell you this is your Husband or wife and you just go ahead and marry the person. oyu have to h ear God's word about the situation yourself before doing anything or making any decision. Never let your Pastors words overrule God's word on your life cos your pastor is also a human being and can make mistakes.

@all
Hi friends,once in a while,I check on this thread to see how the discussion is going and I thank God for the few who are still contending for the faith.you see,when it comes to the things of God,there is no ‘Know all’.We are parts of the body and we need other parts.The Bible refers to it as the perfecting of the saints, The discussion should not be centred on ‘I must win the argument’ or have the final say.That will bring in pride and heady mind.Let God be true and every man a liar,the Word of God says “love is the fulfilling of the law”.There is no way you can love biblically without fulfilling the law.Infact,God says “I will put my laws in their hearts”.For those who do not believe in tithing,permit me to ask these questions.
-Would God be displesed with a man for paying tithes on the Jugdement day?
-Is Matthew23v1,23 the Word of God and is it part of “teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded Matt28v20?
-Did Matthw 23v23 say that faith, judgement and mercy are the major/weightier part of the law?(the supposedly changed law)
-Do you trust your Pastor?II Timothy2v22b, Hebrews13v7,8,17

Ex 20:24
24 An altar of earth thou shalt make unto me, and shalt sacrifice thereon thy burnt offerings, and thy peace offerings, thy sheep, and thine oxen: in all places where I record my name I will come unto thee, and I will bless thee.KJV
Lev 22:17-24
The LORD said to Moses, 18 "Speak to Aaron and his sons and to all the Israelites and say to them: `If any of you--either an Israelite or an alien living in Israel--presents a gift for a burnt offering to the LORD, either to fulfill a vow or as a freewill offering, 19 you must present a male without defect from the cattle, sheep or goats in order that it may be accepted on your behalf. 20 Do not bring anything with a defect, because it will not be accepted on your behalf. 21 When anyone brings from the herd or flock a fellowship offering to the LORD to fulfill a special vow or as a freewill offering, it must be without defect or blemish to be acceptable. 22 Do not offer to the LORD the blind, the injured or the maimed, or anything with warts or festering or running sores. Do not place any of these on the altar as an offering made to the LORD by fire. 23 You may, however, present as a freewill offering an ox or a sheep that is deformed or stunted, but it will not be accepted in fulfillment of a vow. NIV

You may tell us perhap your own Pastor (if you have any) still collect your free-offering in form of bullocks and fat of ram today in order to run their church. (what an emergency of new testament "babalawos"!)
But why did you think this free-will offering can be money, and tithe should not be? You lost the understanding that tithe is the ten percent of your increase which in our present time is mostly in money form. This one thing you need to know that the reason for not giving your so much emphasized freewill offering as fat of rams today, is also what make us to be paying our own tithes in cash today.
God now increase and bless us in cash and not in rams, doves, wheat or whatever.
Nevertheless, it seems you are enjoying this your born contradiction, sorry! not at the contribution of my time again!

Goooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooal

This is the truth we have been telling you about tithes.We no more live in an agrarian society.In our society today,for the majority,the increase/income is money

Someone said Matthw 23 is before the cross.I must say you do err not knowing the scriptures.Firstsome cut off the OT saying we live in the NT,now you cut off 95%of the 4 gospels,whats remaining?Even in whts left,others come and say ‘what Paul wrote does not apply to us today.Have you read II Timothy3v16 and co, All Scripture is, profitable, for instruction, Abi that’s also just Paul’s opinion to Timothy only.
Lets be sincere or as I fear still,Lets get born again

sorry bout that, just read it and got a little more understanding of yuor points. but if i may ask a question Scriptural or not is it wrong? pastor use of it or watever he does with it. You paying tithe, to me i dont know what happens in other churches but i will say tithe is more of a personal issue. do it or not no one will arrest you. if a pastor is now to come arras a member for not paying tithe;/o\; now that i would really really shout and critise about. Whether it is required of us as christians or not, people do it and get a harvest of it, does that mean they have sinned just because "they did  what is not required of us as christian"? i pay tithes not because some pastor ask me to, but simply because of th understanding i have about it. Tithe to me is a way of telling God, that "hey this thing i'm earning would not have been possible if you had not helped me, so here is your share" even at times i give more than my tithes cos i feel God worths it. so pator or wateva its about what you see about it. some peopl do things just because 'Pastor said so'. but dont you think the one thing that supports each ones believe is really their perspective of it. i have read you post and i see you have a point, but i will tell you that for me your points even as valid as rthey are can not do anything to waver my testimony about tithes in my life. Now, i would say that when its is being fprced, and the people are pressured to do it then something is going wrong somewhere. but tithe, biblical or not perspective defines what it looks like to each person. we have all had our experiences and personal revelations about the same issue, and God is not a author of confusion so i do believe that on this issue you are right and i am right, simply because we are looking aty the same thing from different angles.  Yes i agree some pastors decieve their congregation with it, just to enrich their pockets, but still i wat eveer you do, the person you are doing it to is wha determines if yuo will get a result or not The Pastor or God himself.

Lastly,let me say a little on Hebrews 7 which keeps coming up.The purpose of the book was to bring the jews to Jesus as their  mediator.The jews’ relationship with God was through the priests.The writer came to tell them that Jesus had come to take the place of  the priests and sacrifices.That Jesus was and is better than  the priests,than Aaron,Moses,even angels etc.thats the theme.That Jesus is the Way,More superior,qualified than the levites,after the order of Melchisedec to whom Levi paid tithes through Abraham.Notice again that no only levites collect tithes,Melchisedec collects,poor people collect Deut14v28,29,etc,God collects.Tithes just mean 1/10 Heb7v2.Notice v7&8 the verbs are in the present continous.Veril/Surely(v50 till date,he receives them of whom it is witnedssed that he lives.There is made a change of the law v12,what law,the whole bible?No,the OT?No,the 5 books of Moses?No,The 10 laws?No.The law of sacrifice?Yes Heb9v9,10 compare 7v16 and 10v8,9.For a bigger picture,you could read the whole book.Lets rightly divide the Word of truth.It doesn’t contradict but complement each other.God be with You all

hmmm,