@ Tayo D I don't get you. I was watching Oprah the other day and a woman said she was in need of a job and she prayed to God and He gave her a job at a stripper joint. We are indeed saved by grace, does that mean we shouldn't have an understanding of what's right and what's not?

@4Him,

Tayo-D, a simple question: do you believe once saved forever saved?

I believe only one thing saves. Faith in Jesus Christ and His work on the cross. If salvation wasn't obtained through works, it could never be sustained by it. Like Paul said in Galatians 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? And in Romans 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; so you see, the only way to guarantee your salvation is through the assurance of faith, and not the deadness of works.

Now, we need to understand that salvation and righteousness are gifts. They are not earned or merited. No one will get to heaven who works for his/her salvation, else the shedding of Christ's blood was a waste.

The only way you can "lose" your salvation is if you reject the sacrifice of Christ, and that is what you guys are doing unknowingly by thinking His sacrifice was not enough and you need to prop it up with some works so as to make it sure. This is why Paul made the following statement in Galatians 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

When you seek justification through works, you do exactly what Heb 10:29 that I quoted earlier declares - Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?. You responded before by referencing the earlier verse which talks about sinning willfully. Don't you know that whatsoever is not of faith is sin?. The sin is to lose faith in what the blood of Christ stands for and that is what is eloquently expressed here in Hebrews 10.

Tayo-D:

@4Him,
I believe only one thing saves. Faith in Jesus Christ and His work on the cross. If salvation wasn't obtained through works, it could never be sustained by it. Like Paul said in Galatians 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? And in Romans 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; so you see, the only way to guarantee your salvation is through the assurance of faith, and not the deadness of works.

Now, we need to understand that salvation and righteousness are gifts. They are not earned or merited. No one will get to heaven who works for his/her salvation, else the shedding of Christ's blood was a waste.

The only way you can "lose" your salvation is if you reject the sacrifice of Christ, and that is what you guys are doing unknowingly by thinking His sacrifice was not enough and you need to prop it up with some works so as to make it sure. This is why Paul made the following statement in Galatians 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

When you seek justification through works, you do exactly what Heb 10:29 that I quoted earlier declares - Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?. You responded before by referencing the earlier verse which talks about sinning willfully. Don't you know that whatsoever is not of faith is sin?. The sin is to lose faith in what the blood of Christ stands for and that is what is eloquently expressed here in Hebrews 10.

How do you reconcile the above with James 2: 14 - 26 ====>

14 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?

15 If a brother or sister has nothing to wear and has no food for the day,

16 and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, keep warm, and eat well," but you do not give them the necessities of the body, what good is it?

17 So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

18 Indeed someone might say, "You have faith and I have works." Demonstrate your faith to me without works, and I will demonstrate my faith to you from my works.

19 You believe that God is one. You do well. Even the demons believe that and tremble.

20 Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless?

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?

22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by the works.

23 Thus the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," and he was called "the friend of God."

24 See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.

25 And in the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she welcomed the messengers and sent them out by a different route?

26 For just as a body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead

@stillwater,

@ Tayo D I don't get you.

Please let me know what part you do not get so I can explain it better.

I was watching Oprah the other day and a woman said she was in need of a job and she prayed to God and He gave her a job at a stripper joint.

I doubt if God will have someone work as a stripper because it's a job that appeals to the evil desires of the flesh. I qualified that with the word "evil" because not all desires of the flesh are evil. However, could God have her work in some other capacity there? Why not? God must have some assignment for her if that is the case. She'll get close to the sinners there and witness. In my opinion, a Christian in the strip club is no different from a Christian in the world. We are surrounded by darkness whichever way you look at it.

We are indeed saved by grace, does that mean we shouldn't have an understanding of what's right and what's not?

I never said that. The reason why I am yet to deal with this issue is because it's obvious that a lot of people equate our walk with God to our salvation. They are two different and mutually exclusive things. We are rewarded for our work and obedience, but they do not save us.

Now let me explain something further. 1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. This scripture applies exclusively to Christians and not to unbelievers. An unbeliever has no basis for forgiveness even if he confesses all the sins he has ever commited. The only sin God holds him to, that is sending him to hell and makes him a child of the devil is the sin of not believing in Jesus. When he believes in Jesus, he is saved. And when he falls short in his walk with Christ, he can plead 1 John 1:9 for forgiveness and receive it. He doesn't have to confess Jesus as Lord when he sins because he is already saved, he is just out of fellowship.

This is why I cringe when I hear believers asking unbelievers to confess their sins. On what basis are they requesting such? What correlation has that got with their salvation? When unbelievers get the notion that they are accepted by God when they quit such sins, in effect get a mesage of salvation based on works. That is heresy.

@imhoteph,

How do you reconcile the above with James 2: 14 - 26

Both scriptures are not contradictory. You see, there is a "work" that accompanies faith. The work is an outside expression of an inward conviction. That is why James gave some examples. You can't say you believe in meeting people's needs without giving to them.

Now with respect to salvation, the works that follows an inward conviction of faith in Christ is to confess Him as Lord. Hear what Jesus said John 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent. Faith in Christ must be follwoed by confession. When this is done, the cycle is complete.  2 Cor 4:13 We having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak;

The works that accompany our salvation is not to secure our salvation, but is a testimony to the change that has occured on the inside. That is why James said an I will demonstrate my faith to you from my works. His works proves his faith, it does not secure it.

I hope I've made myself clear.

All,

I stumbled on this thread today and I decided to drop a line. While I am not one that is quick to condemn, I feel we all owe it a duty to correct when need arises and as occassion demands.

Going through some of the transcripts of Larry King's interview with Pastor Joel Osteen, one could feel 4Him's outrage on his responses to the fundamentals of the Christian faith. Maybe one would have excused him if he were to be a babe or immature believer being interviewed.

But to think of Pastor Joel, the Christian leader and pastor of the largest congregation in America, voted the most influential Christian in 2006 and among the 10 most popular figures of 2006, stuttering through questions of the basics of the christian faith, before the most watched program on the most watched TV channel (CNN) and before millions of viewers world-wide, believers and unbelievers alike! I was ashamed and thoroughly disappointed, I must say.

TayoD, while I wont go to the extremes in condemning him I feel let down reading the transcripts; which is why I don't seem to understand why you are making excuses and trying to explain what Pastor Joel didn't say! What a chance wasted to be a witness and a voice for Christ. You don't get such opportunities everyday. Agreed, he later offered apologies in his website and tried to give a 'correct' interview later, I think a damage was done already.

It appears he was afraid of offending some and so mindful of sounding correct in an increasingly permissive world. I couldn't but think of Peter and John appearing before the Sanhedrin in Acts 4 when they were called to defend the faith. Hear what Peter said in verse 12 "Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved". He didn't mince words about it. Or should we talk about Paul before King Agrippa in Acts 26? The king marvelled and almost became a Christian just listening to Paul's persuasion and declaration about the risen Christ.

Should Joel have done less, given almost the same circumstances and a wider audience, where truth is on trial?

That was a very clinical piece, analytical.

Analytical:

Going through some of the transcripts of Larry King's interview with Pastor Joel Osteen, one could feel 4Him's outrage on his responses to the fundamentals of the Christian faith. Maybe one would have excused him if he were to be a babe or immature believer being interviewed.

I am not even outraged at all . . . i am just so so sad that in this day and age . . . people who are ashamed of Christ in public still sit to lead 30,000 precious souls every sunday. I am even more saddened that we have some who go the extra mile to excuse this show of shame .

Analytical:

But to think of Pastor Joel, the Christian leader and pastor of the largest congregation in America, voted the most influential Christian in 2006 and among the 10 most popular figures of 2006, stuttering through questions of the basics of the christian faith, before the most watched program on the most watched TV channel (CNN) and before millions of viewers world-wide, believers and unbelievers alike! I was ashamed and thoroughly disappointed, I must say.

Luke 6:26 Woe unto you, when all men shall speak well of you! for so did their fathers to the false prophets.

Analytical:

It appears he was afraid of offending some and so mindful of sounding correct in an increasingly permissive world. I couldn't but think of Peter and John appearing before the Sanhedrin in Acts 4 when they were called to defend the faith. Hear what Peter said in verse 12 "Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved". He didn't mince words about it. Or should we talk about Paul before King Agrippa in Acts 26? The king marvelled and almost became a Christian just listening to Paul's persuasion and declaration about the risen Christ.

I can only wish that our christians of today will begin to hold their leaders to the same standards that we once held the ancient prophets in the book of acts . . . the bible describes these fearless men of faith as our examples.

Tayo-D:

This is why I cringe when I hear believers asking unbelievers to confess their sins. On what basis are they requesting such? What correlation has that got with their salvation? When unbelievers get the notion that they are accepted by God when they quit such sins, in effect get a mesage of salvation based on works. That is heresy.

Proverbs 28:13 He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy.

Is 55:7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

Matthew 9:13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Luke 24:47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

[size=13pt]Definition of Heresy: an opinion, doctrine, or practice contrary to the truth[/size]

Hi
This is the first time i will post anything on this site ,even though i have been a member for 2 years. The topic being discussed really caught my attention.
The need to defend the standard of true xtianity is more urgent now , more than ever. The subtle approach, keeping a toad in cold water and gradually increasing the temp so the poor creature doesn't realise he's being burnt alive,works perfectly for the crafty serpent. Has anyone seen Sammie Okposo's latest "Xtian" video; the one with the limo and those ladies in plunge-cleavage revealing outfits,sipping on a litle "sumtin sumtin" that would be more suitable for a R.Kelly video? Oh, he does give praise to Jesus for blessing him with the" good things" of life.
Imagine the kind of orientation and intro to xtianity this would give new /young xtians.
I will not takes sides with either 4HIM or Tayo 'cos it's obvious both are concerned about keeping the faith.
Let us guard the faith that was handed down to us and not try move the ancient boundaries; no compromise please.

4Him:

[[size=13pt]Definition of Heresy: an opinion, doctrine, or practice contrary to the truth[/size]

like denying that salvation is by Christ alone.

@Analytical,

Thanks for your contribution. I thot we've all agreed that the guy could have done better with the interview. the difference is just that while 4Him deems it fit to call JO a false teacher, I sincerely do not think so. He realised from reading the transcript that he really seemed to have given a false message from what he intended, and he duly apologised for that. The rest is left between him and his Master.

However, I wish you'd contribute to the raging issue at hand. What is the role of works with respect to salvation (as in getting born again)? I'd really love to have your input on that, as I think it is very crucial.

4Him,

Let me address some of the scriptures you cited within the context you used them.

Luke 6:26 Woe unto you, when all men shall speak well of you! for so did their fathers to the false prophets.

But you are speaking evil of the man now. Virtually everyone, including unbelievers speak so well of billy graham. Does that make him a false prophet?

Proverbs 28:13 He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy.

This scripture is true. For the unbeliever, until he confesses the sin of unbelief in Christ, and believes in Him, hell is his portion. For the believer, failure to confess and forsake your sins will deprive you of fellowship with your Father as well as facing the consequences of the sin.

Is 55:7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

What way should the unbel forsake other than unbelief in Christ. Tell me, will any unbel who lives righteously attain salvation based on the works? This is exactly what you are implying.

Luke 24:47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

These are covered in John 10 I quoted before. When an unbeliever repents of the sin of unbelief in Christ, there is remission of sins, which is why Jesus mentioned that the Holy Spirit will show them what it takes to be righteous. Why is it so hard to see this: John 16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9 Of sin, because they believe not on me; 10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;

Definition of Heresy: an opinion, doctrine, or practice contrary to the truth

And you don't feel like the preaching of salvation through works as many have done is heresy?

@nwando,

like denying that salvation is by Christ alone.

I assume you are refering to JO here. In all honesty, I do not think this is what he said.

However, don't you think your denying that salvation is the complete work of Christ alone is also heresy? Saying an unbeliever has to live righteously to be accepted by Christ is the greatest assault on the efficacy of the blood of Christ than anything else I've ever come to hear.

Tayo-D:

However, don't you think your denying that salvation is the complete work of Christ alone is also heresy? Saying an unbeliever has to live righteously to be accepted by Christ is the greatest assault on the efficacy of the blood of Christ than anything else I've ever come to hear.

this one caught my attention.

NO ONE has said anything remotely close to this AT ALL. Salvation is a gift, mercy is a gift, grace is a gift, repentance is also a gift . . . we dont work for it, even our righteousness (works) is like filthy rags before the Lord.

What is being said is this - you cant claim to be saved and continue to live in sin. You cant claim to be saved and be a live-in lover, you cant claim to be saved and divorce ur wife as most of our pastors now take the liberty to do, you cant claim to be saved and work in a strip joint . . .

Salvation is a gift but you also have a part to play. Understanding that you are a sinner is the first step to salvation . . . without it you will never understand the enormity of God's precious gift of His life on the cross.
He went to the cross and took our transgression[b]s[/b] with Him . . . without understanding this concept you may as well decieve urself that u are saved when you really are just being a moralist.

@4Him,

NO ONE has said anything remotely close to this AT ALL. Salvation is a gift, mercy is a gift, grace is a gift, repentance is also a gift . . . we don't work for it, even our righteousness (works) is like filthy rags before the Lord.

If you accept that salvation is a gift, what then is the purpose of telling unbels they must not do this, they must not do that? Do you now see my point? Telling them to refrain from sin is not going to get them saved.

Salvation is a gift but you also have a part to play. Understanding that you are a sinner is the first step to salvation . . . without it you will never understand the enormity of God's precious gift of His life on the cross.

Your part as Jesus said in John 10, is to believe on Him You won't accept Jesus as Lord if you do not have the understanding that you are a sinner. Every unbel out there know that they are sinners. What saves is accepting that Jesus is the way out, and not attemptint to live righteously.

Tayo-D:

@4Him,
If you accept that salvation is a gift, what then is the purpose of telling unbels they must not do this, they must not do that? Do you now see my point? Telling them to refrain from sin is not going to get them saved.

Why then did the bible tell us to flee all appearance of evil? Why then did Christ go to the cross bearing our transgression[b]s[/b] if it would not get us saved anyway?
Frankly the more you post the more i wonder what passes for christianity these days.

Tayo-D:

Your part as Jesus said in John 10, is to believe on Him You won't accept Jesus as Lord if you do not have the understanding that you are a sinner. Every unbel out there know that they are sinners. What saves is accepting that Jesus is the way out, and not attemptint to live righteously.

That is not true mr. If they knew they were all sinners and that they wont go to heaven then why are they not all rushing to be saved?
The definition of "sin" is depends solely on the yardstick for measuring it . . .

For instance fornication is a sin to the christian . . . does a scientologist consider it sin?
What of the atheist who does not even believe that a God exists at all? How can he comprehend that he is a sinner?

The place of repentance in salvation was VERY important to Christ. When He delivered the woman caught in adultery he told her "go and sin no more" . . . was he talking about the sin of unbelief there? Did he assume she was a believer?

Matthew 26:28
For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sin[b]s[/b]. - Notice the plurality of the term "sins" here. What sins was he shedding His precious blood for? That of unbelief only?

Mark 1:4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.

Mark 2:5 When Jesus saw their faith, he said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, thy sins be forgiven thee. - what sins?

[size=14pt]Luke 1:77 To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins,[/size]

@4Him,

Why then did the bible tell us to flee all appearance of evil?

You tell us. But please do not say it is so that when we flee evil we are saved. If that is the case, Christ didn't need to die. All I have to do is stay away from evil and I'll be fine. Saul was blameless regarding the law but was as mush a son of hell as any unbeliever until he believed in Christ. What Gospel do you preach out there?

Why then did Christ go to the cross bearing our transgressions if it would not get us saved anyway?

He paid the price for sins. He met the requirements of the law. If He did, what business do you have trying to meet the requirements of the law?

Frankly the more you post the more i wonder what passes for christianity these days.

I am beginning to get really distressed by this another Gospel you are preaching. I have asked you how much law did you obey to obtain your salvation but you balked. And yet you tell us that unbels must stop sinning as a part of their contribution towards salvation. You are preaching another Gospel my brother. You, like Isreal have stumbled Romans 9:31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. 32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;.

I beg you by the mercies of God, do not ask unbelievers to cease from sins before God can accept them. He already did. It is just up to them to change their mind towards God and accept what He has done in His Son.

Here is how to lead someone to salvation in Romans 10:6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above 7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.) 8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; 9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. If you add anything to this, you are in manifest error.

Paul did not tell his jailor to confess all his sins, not to go home and start living right after which he shall qualify for salvation. Here is how it all went: Acts 16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? 31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. I am realy getting scared for you because when you depend on works for your salvation, you fall from grace.

What do you really believe, is salvation by grace or by works? These two are mutually exclusive. Here is Romans 11:6 in some translations for your better understanding.

And if they are saved by God's kindness, then it is not by their good works. For in that case, God's wonderful kindness would not be what it really is – free and undeserved.

And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

His choice is based on his grace, not on what they have done. For if God's choice were based on what people do, then his grace would not be real grace.

@4Him,

The place of repentance in salvation was VERY important to Christ. When He delivered the woman caught in adultery he told her "go and sin no more" . . . was he talking about the sin of unbelief there? Did he assume she was a believer?
Matthew 26:28
For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. - Notice the plurality of the term "sins" here. What sins was he shedding His precious blood for? That of unbelief only?
Mark 1:4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.
Mark 2:5 When Jesus saw their faith, he said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, thy sins be forgiven thee. - what sins?
Luke 1:77 To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins,

No doubt Christ died for the sins of the world, but the implication is different from what you are taking it to mean.  Let me ask you a question which I hope will help you bring this whole discussion into perspective. Must unbelievers confess ALL their sins to be saved? What happens if they confess some and not all? (okay it was more than one question).

timbaland:

I will not takes sides with either 4HIM or Tayo 'because it's obvious both are concerned about keeping the faith.

@Timbaland, thanks for your input.  This is not taking sides with either 4Him or Tayo-D.  Rather, it is being on the side of the truth.  As far as the Joel issue is concerned, he let Christ down on that occassion.  If he was afraid of being quoted, the least he could have done was to quote the very words of Christ himself "I am the Way, the Truth and the Life, No one comes to the Father except by Me".

That is the truth, whether some like it or not.  Religions may be sincere in their quest for God, which I guess Joel was trying to consider, but that doesn't take anything from the truth.  They are sincerely wrong.  What is it that Joel didn't know about that when the Master Himself said it and the Apostles confirmed it?  There is no salvation in any other.  End of discussion on that.

Tayo-D:

@Analytical,

Thanks for your contribution. I thot we've all agreed that the guy could have done better with the interview. the difference is just that while 4Him deems it fit to call JO a false teacher, I sincerely do not think so. He realised from reading the transcript that he really seemed to have given a false message from what he intended, and he duly apologised for that. The rest is left between him and his Master.

However, I wish you'd contribute to the raging issue at hand. What is the role of works with respect to salvation (as in getting born again)? I'd really love to have your input on that, as I think it is very crucial.

Thanks pal.  I agree with you here.  I have listened to Joel Osteen severally and I won't call him a false teacher as well.  While his experience, style and delivery may be different from some other ministers, I won't label him as a heretic.  I see him more of an exhorter/encourager than a preacher.  That he as well acknowledged.

As to the raging issue of works with respect to salvation, you are perfectly in order sir!  Works are the fruit of salvation, not the cause of it.

Ephesians 2
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Romans 11

6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

This you have beautifully summarized in post #164 as:

Tayo-D:

Now with respect to salvation, the works that follows an inward conviction of faith in Christ is to confes Him as Lord. Here what Jesus said John 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent. Faith in Christ must be follwoed by confession. When this is done, the cycle is complete. 2 Cor 4:13 We having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak;

The works that accompany our salvation is not to secure our salvation, but is a testimony to the change that has occured on the inside. That is why James said an I will demonstrate my faith to you from my works. His works proves his faith, it does not secure it.

I hope I've made myself clear.

Bless y'all.

4Him, thanks for your inputs. I like the zeal. But it appears you don't really grasp what Tayo-D was trying to explain. I don't think the two of you are far from each other on the aspect of works and salvation. A liitle more explanation will suffice.

4Him:

NO ONE has said anything remotely close to this AT ALL. Salvation is a gift, mercy is a gift, grace is a gift, repentance is also a gift . . . we don't work for it, even our righteousness (works) is like filthy rags before the Lord.

Well said. If it is a gift, then you don't work for it. And if it is by grace, then you don't earn it. It is all done and procurred by the Giver. Your only part in it is to recieve the gift and it is all yours (John 1:12, 3:16-18, ) . I think we all agree on this.

What is being said is this - you can't claim to be saved and continue to live in sin. You can't claim to be saved and be a live-in lover, you can't claim to be saved and divorce your wife as most of our pastors now take the liberty to do, you can't claim to be saved and work in a strip joint . . .

I am not sure that is what Tayo-D is claiming. What I think he is saying is that not doing all those things on their own does not qualify you to be saved. Remember the young man that came to Jesus asking how to be saved? He kept all the laws from his youth but he is not saved all the same!

Let me simplify this. At salvation (or more appropriately, conversion), one receives the gift of eternal life. You enter by the door. You are saved. You are now a child of God, a new born baby. This is the new birth experience. This is the gift. You don't work to earn it. It is all done. You only receive it.

But that is not the end. You don't just stay at the door! It is just the entrance. You enter the building called new life in christ. This is the beginning of the new life in Christ, eternal life. You then grow in grace just as a new born grows through the stages until (s)he becomes an adult. This is growing unto maturity. The fruit begins to come out of the life you have already. You start to show your faith by your works, not because you want to earn the gift, but because you have the gift. Your former ways are past. You are a new creature. You now bear new fruit.

Salvation is a gift but you also have a part to play.

I wont put it that way. If it is a gift, then the only part you have to play is receiving the gift, not procuring it. This is at conversion. But you have a part to play in growing to maturity.

What part did you have to play when you were born naturally except coming through the birth canal (equivalent to new birth)? But you certainly have to play your role to grow up to what you are now. Get my drift?

@Analytical,

Thanks for your eloquent input. I do hope 4Him and others will now understand what I have been trying to tell them all along.

Analytical:

I am not sure that is what Tayo-D is claiming. What I think he is saying is that not doing all those things on their own does not qualify you to be saved. Remember the young man that came to Jesus asking how to be saved? He kept all the laws from his youth but he is not saved all the same!

Let me simplify this. At salvation (or more appropriately, conversion), one receives the gift of eternal life. You enter by the door. You are saved. You are now a child of God, a new born baby. This is the new birth experience. This is the gift. You don't work to earn it. It is all done. You only receive it.

But that is not the end. You don't just stay at the door! It is just the entrance. You enter the building called new life in christ. This is the beginning of the new life in Christ, eternal life. You then grow in grace just as a new born grows through the stages until (s)he becomes an adult. This is growing unto maturity. The fruit begins to come out of the life you have already. You start to show your faith by your works, not because you want to earn the gift, but because you have the gift. Your former ways are past. You are a new creature. You now bear new fruit.

Gbam! As analytical as your name suggests
The part i highlighted is exactly what i was trying to pass across.

Analytical:

I wont put it that way. If it is a gift, then the only part you have to play is receiving the gift, not procuring it. This is at conversion. But you have a part to play in growing to maturity.

What part did you have to play when you were born naturally except coming through the birth canal (equivalent to new birth)? But you certainly have to play your role to grow up to what you are now. Get my drift?

Exactly sir. God bless you.

Tayo-D:

@Analytical,

Thanks for your eloquent input. I do hope 4Him and others will now understand what I have been trying to tell them all along.

phew. If that was your point then i'm glad analytical made it even more clear. Got ya now.

Greetings all,

Hope everyone's well.

I thought this discussion started off quite well.
But it very quickly detoured down a cul-de-sac about salvation by law or grace? And some other not so relevent side roads.

I don't think anyone of the discussants are unclear about salvation by grace and subsequent works of faith.

As ever I hate to make it about people, so may I suggest that contributors talk around what they think are the hallmarks of a true believer/disciple of Christ - at whatever level of walk/sevice/circumstance - and indeed traits/action/conduct/behaviour that run contrary to such a profession.

We have our Lord and Master as template, as well as the biblical record of the lives and responses of many early saints.

It may also help to define or at least understand what individuals mean by or consider to be a false prophet. For example, I could say my view is that anyone that has not personally encountered the risen Lord, subsequently entered into onging communion with Him and been specif ically instructed to speak is false, regardless of whether or not what is spoken is true.

It could be by levels. So for example if I had a poor understanding of law/works/grace salvation by dint of my being a baby in Christ, but did not presume to teach or lead and still earnestly sought Gods truth, that would be viewed accordingly. However if I pesumed to lead a large number of those who claimed - or indeed truly sought after God in Christ Jesus - and taught such as gospel truth, would that not be a different case?

Trying to judge or even appraise the motives or actions of individuals could be difficult and is usually charged. Said person could have changed, thier stance on a particular point could have changed. In both instances for good or bad, better or worse. Oft times we judge with the seeing of the eye, or our judgment may be clouded by association, again good r bad. Please stick with the One who changeth not.

It's good to see you are all well and in truth it was an excuse to drop in and say hi to many I have a deep affection for and think fondly of. Hi guys.

For those who seek him with an unyieling fervour, you have no need of any mediator.

I pray that The Lord Himself with stoke that yearning for Him. For those that truly love Him, may your love never grow cold.

Nothing but love.

TV

@4Him, Tayo-D and all, I am glad we understand ourselves now.  Thanks for the discourse.

However, I think there are other salient issues raised in the discussion that I feel can still be discussed further:

   - Once saved always saved? 
   - "I have always believed"
   - The place of a call in ministry.

@TV01, it's good to have you in here.  Good to see you are well too.  You are fondly missed.  How has been the 'journey'?

TV01:

As ever I hate to make it about people, so may I suggest that contributors talk around what they think are the hallmarks of a true believer/disciple of Christ - at whatever level of walk/sevice/circumstance - and indeed traits/action/conduct/behaviour that run contrary to such a profession.

I think we can add this to the list above.

TV01:

It may also help to define or at least understand what individuals mean by or consider to be a false prophet. For example, I could say my view is that anyone that has not personally encountered the risen Lord, subsequently entered into onging communion with Him and been specif ically instructed to speak is false, regardless of whether or not what is spoken is true.

I am of the same opinion here.  The race starts with a personal encounter with the Saviour.  So anyone who claims to speak for Him must have encountered Him and been with Him.  This is why I find the "I have always believed" hard to take.  I know some have the encounter at a very early age, the details of which they may not readily remember now, but they must have met Jesus one day.  But to say "I have always believed" is so false to me.

Analytical:

However, I think there are other salient issues raised in the discussion that I feel can still be discussed further:

- Once saved always saved?
- "I have always believed"
- The place of a call in ministry.

thank you analytical for bringing back those important issues, here is my take:
- once saved always saved - that is untrue. The bible admonishes us to grow in the faith and to WORK OUT our salvation with fear and trembling. Infact the scriptures say something interesting on this issue . . . Heb 6: 4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

- I have always believed - That is a lie of the enemy that blinds the eyes of those who think because they were raised in a christian environment they have no need to repent and be saved. The bible says for all have sinned and come short of the glory of God.

- The place of a call in ministry - Extremely important. I use the example of Paul . . . . even after his powerful conversion he did not just jump unto the streets to preach. He had to wait a few days until he was specifically commissioned to preach the gospel to the gentiles.
The disciples had to wait for the pentecost before they began their ministries . . .

God is not the author of confusion . . . everyone has a specific assignment and it is important that they hear His voice before claiming to be doing His bidding.

yemivictor:

Phew!
And the one not wanting to yield-in to the other!!!

More like a show of bible scholarship!!!

If not for analytical!

The pages for reach one million!!!

lol i'm hoping that others did gain something more than that. The idea was not to show bible scholarship at all . . . sorry if that was came across at a point but even me i learnt a lot from it.

Thanks indeed to analytical.

Thank God you guys have reached a resolution. I guess one man albeit unknowningly was trying to proof that his own perspective of Salvation is correct. I must however give it to you guys for the matured exchanges. I wish our mu'slim bradas would be able to put on their thinking cap and engage in a discourse such as this.

Enjoy.

@topic,

This topic has obviously snow-balled into something greater than the original poster intended. I would think a separate thread need to be created to address all the issues concerned.

I'll open up a new thread and provide links subsequently.

@topic,

As promised, I have opened a new thread titled: Salvation - Matters Arising. You can view the topic at https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-117245.0.html

Without God for sure!

Wetin be DAy of Atonement offering again eh

mrs Paula has always been fleecing the flock and now she's divorced!
Lord have mercy.