Kay 17: 1. The worship of Baal for example. Jehu murdered an entire family for it. He murdered thousands of ppl in a temple because they worshipped Baal. The ten commandments forbid the worship of idols.

Did he prevent foreigners from worshipping their gods? Whenever the israelites went after foreign idols --- did they not subsequently accept that they should not be doing so because they were violating their own covenant?

Kay 17: 2. Pls use your superior intellectual sense to explain how that verse preached free speech.

It suports free speech because it does not prevent the fool from saying there is no God; it simply tells him that he is a fool for saying so. Afterall your colleagues exercise their free speech by calling theists "deluded", "reetards", "nutjobs" etc.

Finally, take your time to meditate and think deeply on the truthfulness or otherwise of the verse.

Kay 17: 3. That's different from what you said earlier.

Nope, I have not said anything different from what i've been saying.

Kay 17: 4. Are you saying now that Science don't underpin Faith anymore??

Your quote:

"Faith informed by knowledge (including science) and reason (including philosophy) UNDERPIN Christianity."

It seems your problem is with my use of the word 'underpin'. If I've misused it, I have already clarified with my other posts.

For avoidance of doubt: what I meant by "underpin" is in fact "support".

As I said above, Christianity stands on its own irrespective of Science but is supported by it.

plaetton:

Good. T
Then let it be understood, especially for my irredeemable detractors on this forum, lol, that when , for example I criticise Adeboye, other MOGs or their NL apostles, I am not criticising christianity as a body, but venting my anger at things that I see as social injustices all done and condoned in the name of christianity and god.

Hehe...you must include it as your signature for it to count.
And come sef, with that statement^, are you indirectly saying you don't necessarily subscribe to atheism?

---

Kay 17: @jesoul

Looool!!

okay oh. Me sef I am laughing.

Suffrey suffrey when making any "pronouncements" in the future that you cannot *cough cough* back up. Occasionally, we will not allow you guys to get away with it . I will allow you to face Enigma, make I siddon watch. Cheerios amigos.

to all atheists in the house, apologies for using the word sociopath, was used in the heat of the moment during my multitasking activities !


peace !

Stalwert: ^
I think the most irritating of all is to see atheists spend all their good time arguing with people they claim believe in fairy tales, I mean it does just make sense, I for one cannot spend my valuable time arguing with an adult who believes in tooth fairy, I mean believe what you want, I don't see how it disturbs, but on the contrary atheists I have seen in the forum spend good time refuting what they call simply fairy tales, that in itself is plain ridiculous indeed unless you guys really have nothings most of the time!

Your point is completely senseless and you KNOW it. . .I was in Nigeria during the christmas season for just two weeks. . .I was labelled the son of satan, looked down upon and treated by badly by some christians just because I dismissed and ridiculed their basis for tithe and pastoral worship(the argument was basically that you do not have to pay tithe to be richest people in the world do not pay tithes, it then evolved into the bible and I mistakenly talked loosely). . .These are people that did not even know I was an atheist. . .They use the bible to justify their delusions. . .In Nigeria today you can be killed for being an atheist and any body that claims my assertion is not true is a LIAR. . .Why do believers in Nigeria treat people badly when they tell them they do not believe in their god and their religion?. . .

If a person that believes in a tooth fairy ostracizes you, disrespects you and refuses to have regard for you because you lack belief in his tooth fairy mythology. . .You will spend a valuable time arguing with him about his tooth fairy mythology. . .That is the same thing the atheist do here. . .To claim other wise to to tell LIES, simple. . .

Enigma:

Did he prevent foreigners from worshipping their gods? Whenever the israelites went after foreign idols --- did they not subsequently accept that they should not be doing so because they were violating their own covenant?

Better. That's my point. The Israelites were intolerant towards other religions. Simple. They persecuted pagans as far as their powers could go. Invading and perpetuating genocides. Their covenant wasn't the standard for free speech.

Read the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and measure that with what's in the Bible.

It suports free speech because it does not prevent the fool from saying there is no God; it simply tells him that he is a fool for saying so. Afterall your colleagues exercise their free speech by calling theists "deluded", "reetards", "nutjobs" etc.

Rather the Bible is in an instructive language, and following the trend of the numerous hateful verses preceding it, makes the damning condemnation against atheists with authority. Its not simply expressing an opinion.

And the verse doesn't take advantage of free speech BUT it doesn't promote or praise free speech.

Nope, I have not said anything different from what i've been saying.




It seems your problem is with my use of the word 'underpin'. If I've misused it, I have already clarified with my other posts.

For avoidance of doubt: what I meant by "underpin" is in fact "support".

As I said above, Christianity stands on its own irrespective of Science but is supported by it.

So Faith can stand alone??

JeSoul:
Suffrey suffrey when making any "pronouncements" in the future that you cannot *cough cough* back up. Occasionally, we will not allow you guys to get away with it . I will allow you to face Enigma, make I siddon watch. Cheerios amigos.

BUT you didn't point out what was illogical about my "opinion"?!

mazaje:
In Nigeria today you can be killed for being an atheist and any body that claims my assertion is not true is a LIAR. . .Why do believers in Nigeria treat people badly when they tell them they do not believe in their god and their religion?. . .

LIE ! the bolded I mean

I have atheist relatives who make their position known and walk freely, not sure which part of Nigeria you went to, but in my Igbo zone people are more liberal and tolerant of other views.

Can't say the same for atheists though , with their constant mockery and ridicule of what they know not.

Mazaje that was un-called for. Please remain respectful in discourse and not insult others faith. Thanks.

JeSoul: Mazaje that was un-called for. Please remain respectful in discourse and not insult others faith. Thanks.

You see the problem?. . .He said his god says atheist are fools and he agrees(Using his god to insult others), I am now saying his god is a fool and some how I should respect people's faith?. . .What the hell is that?. . .How about telling him not to use his religion and its bubble to call others fools. . .

Kay 17:

BUT you didn't point out what was illogical about my "opinion"?!

You're serious? you made a series of statements that are simply your opinion that've you've determined to be enough 'reason and empiricism' to 'pronounce' that God doesn't exist.

And are asking what is illogical?

Pastor Kun: Whilst I normally don't like engaging atheist on NL cause I believe they have deliberately chosen to be ignorant, I would like to share this write up I took off a friend's facebook page as I believe it's worth sharing.

Deliberately chosen to be ignorant about what? Can you seriously say this when they point out that they used to believe but stopped believing due to poor arguments and insufficient evidence? I hope you posted this quote with the aim of defending the statements in it that you agree with rather than just some drive by posting.

Pastor Kun:
Few things bother me more than atheism. It is as though because of
the antecedents of believers in a Supreme Being the Supreme Being must
then be shorn asunder. Most of what man has said is God is man creating
God from man's vast imagination.

Yes and with good reason. There have been so many Gods created in the past and it looks like more will be created in the future. Yet we see that they have some important differences and they tend to recede as man gains more insight into how the world works.

Pastor Kun:
So, then, what is "God?" I define God
as the source of volition who lives outside the time and space created by
our cosmic big bang. The question of a creator is answered by the existence
of anything. As they say, why is there not nothing? Meaning, where was the
energy that created all matter willed from "in the first place", if not the source of volition?

Your definition is interesting and questionable. There are questions on whether or not it is possible to be outside of time and space since that would mean being nowhere. The question of a creator isn't answered by that. Why do you think there should be nothing?

Pastor Kun:
Volition itself is a mystery. The moon cannot, of it's own, decide to leave its
orbit for a stroll down the milky way galaxy. But man can decide to move and then,
in a singularity-like instance, move energy.

Well the moon isn't a sapient entity so wondering why it doesn't do that is like wondering why your key doesn't turn into a stone when you want to open your door.

Pastor Kun:
What type of energy
is volitional energy? It is as though man has a hidden capacitor that stores energy
and is able to invoke this circuit "at will." What is this will? The moon and sun don't have it,
and they are moved by the big bang and it's inflationary vibration.

What on earth is volitional energy? This sort of speculation make me think that you're trying to invoke some sort of ghost in the machine theory of mind. Such ideas have been shown to be untenable. Then you're making a category error when comparing human actions to the motions of the moon and sun.

Pastor Kun:
This is why man speculates that we are made in the image and
likeness of the the source of volition.

I hope you're not assuming that your God is the only God concept ever formulated. Quetzalcoatl isn't in the image of man you know.

Pastor Kun:
Physicists cannot explain what "I" is other
than "awareness" of space in time within the bounds of the laws of our universe. But
what gives individual identity? Can this identity be said to be a random manifestation
of our expanding universe, and if so, why do we call it "life"?

Physicists aren't in the business of formulating theories of mind or consciousness besides, the fact that we don't know doesn't mean it is your God. Neither do we call awareness or individual identity, life or do you think that bacteria and fungi have an awareness?

Pastor Kun:
There are types of life
on earth, gathering energy through a solar process, but only fertilization and germination create the sort
of volitional object which is not bound by an orbit defined by the big bang's initial
inflation and vibration. What type of energy is this in physics? Nobody knows.

False. That type of energy is what we call solar energy. It is from the sun which is powered by nuclear fusion. Do you really think that plants have the sort of volition you're attributing to humans and your God?

Pastor Kun:
I haven't considered myself a Christian for a while, but I certainly know that it is
the fool who says in his heart that there is no God. If because God is cloaked in
Judeo-Christian garb you deny the existence of a source of volition, ask yourself, what
is volition and where is it stored?

I'm beginning to suspect that it is the fool that says in his heart that there is a God without backing it up with good evidence. It isn't because your God is the Christian one, it is because so far, there have been serious problems with the various ideas of God that have been proposed.

Pastor Kun:
It has nothing to do with Adam or Eve. Those revelations
are not meant for those who prefer a more rational explanation of our existence. If you deny
that there could be a higher intelligence than yourself and that this intelligence, too, has
volition, then you are in danger of becoming irrelevant in the argument. Humans can prove one
to another that relatively, god-like intelligence exists amongst and between humans. Why then should
we not assume that a higher intelligence than ours also exists relative to ours, one which does not
require space/time in order to function volitionally.

So who is Adam and Eve meant for? People who prefer an irrational explanation of our existence? We cannot make that assumption because it requires leaps that are so huge that if accepted can easily lead to illogical conclusions. e.g how can there be volition without time?

Pastor Kun:
There are those who say that Olodumare created the Universe and that he sent Oduduwa "down" to earth
to create Ile-Ife. And there are those who say it was Yaweh who brooded upon the face of the deep.
Our accumulated knowledge tells us, however, that the the sense of time was created "in an instant"
fourteen or so billion years ago, "before" which time was irrelevant to us who sense it. This requires
a creator, only because it was OUR sense of time in space that came to be, and volitional sense cannot
spring up from a dense infinity of energy and massless gas. It is alright to be agnostic and to say
that it is unknowable until proven otherwise. But to dismiss God outright without really appreciating
the meaninglessness, then, of existence is folly. The fool has said in his heart, that volition is
not proof of a source of volition. There... I'm done ranting

So what sense of time is the creator using to make his decisions and who created that one? Who says existence is meaningless? I like existing and I'm sure there are many others who like my continued existence so how is it meaningless? Maybe you need to sit down and think again about this volition of yours because you seem to be reifying it and that is fallacious.

mazaje:

You see the problem?. . .He said his god says atheist are fools and he agrees(Using his god to insult others), I am now saying his god is a fool and some how I should respect people's faith?. . .What the hell is that?. . .

Don't try to deflect. You know that was a deliberate attempt to insult.

People have been somewhat jovially throwing around the "fool" verse all through this thread and it hasn't been cause for angst.

Jesoul. . .If you are going to hide my post. . .Then you have to hide Frosbel's post as well. . .

mazaje: Jesoul. . .If you are going to hide my post. . .Then you have to hide Frosbel's post as well. . .

I did. If any of insulting quality remain I must've missed it. Please show me...

JeSoul: Don't try to deflect. You know that was a deliberate attempt to insult.

People have been somewhat jovially throwing around the "fool" verse all through this thread and it hasn't been cause for angst.

And you know that my own is not jovial because?. . .

I come here (not often), look at who's here and surprise, each time the last half dozen times, mazaje is in!

Oga, seems you have ended up religious without realising it

Running away now - have realised less than 1% of those on earth can think enough to truly learn! No more arguments for this boy!

JeSoul: I did. If any of insulting quality remain I must've missed it. Please show me...

As long as you remove his that's all. . .My apologies. . .

thehomer:

Deliberately chosen to be ignorant about what? Can you seriously say this when they point out that they used to believe but stopped believing due to poor arguments and insufficient evidence? I hope you posted this quote with the aim of defending the statements in it that you agree with rather than just some drive by posting.

What good arguments and sufficient evidence do you have to support your fallacious position ?

Yes and with good reason. There have been so many Gods created in the past and it looks like more will be created in the future. Yet we see that they have some important differences and they tend to recede as man gains more insight into how the world works.

so tell us oh wise one, how does the world work and how did it all come about ?

So who is Adam and Eve meant for? People who prefer an irrational explanation of our existence? We cannot make that assumption because it requires leaps that are so huge that if accepted can easily lead to illogical conclusions. e.g how can there be volition without time?

actually it takes a larger leap of faith to believe that GOD does not exist or that the Nebraska man is real for example.

mazaje:

As long as you remove his that's all. . .My apologies. . .

oh common now, don't get so emotional

nuclearboy: I come here (not often), look at who's here and surprise, each time the last half dozen times, mazaje is in!

Oga, seems you have ended up religious without realising it

Running away now - have realised less than 1% of those on earth can think enough to truly learn! No more arguments for this boy!

Happy new year man. . .Quite a while, hope you are good. . .Wishing you the best of the year. . If atheism is a religion then I am happy to have it as my religion. . . . . .I am not one of those that argue endlessly weather atheism is a religion or not. . .To me it doesn't even matter since am not even for universal atheism. . .

frosbel:

oh common now, don't get so emotional

So emotional. .LOL!

frosbel:

What good arguments and sufficient evidence do you have to support your fallacious position ?

The argument depends on the position I hold that you think is fallacious.

frosbel:
so tell us oh wise one, how does the world work and how did it all come about ?

For that, you'll need to do some actual learning rather than expecting some random stranger to upload gigabytes of information into your brain.

frosbel:
actually it takes a larger leap of faith to believe that GOD does not exist or that the Nebraska man is real for example.

Then within the context of that response, can you show how there can be volition without time? Or how you have intelligence without space?

mazaje:

As long as you remove his that's all. . .My apologies. . .

No wahala...Frosbel has been known to bring out the fire in people lol.

@nuclearboy, nice to see you!

JeSoul: No wahala...Frosbel has been known to bring out the fire in people lol.

@nuclearboy, nice to see you!

You too, Jesoul! Still my favourite NLer

I have beef with Majaze and Plaetton

They prefer the patient and mature way of deabting out differences with peeps like Frosbel, Enigma and Stalwert.

I on the other hand, prefer to make short and quick but harsh with these kinds of theists that prefer to call atheists fools. They can only understand suffering and pain not reason. So everytime I make a harsh argument, I know that it hits home. I dont waste time to point out how irrational or delusional some of their arguments are.


There are only few theists that deserve rational and mature discussions; Anony, Pastor Pastor Kun, Pastor AIO, Tbaba and Deepsight. However, Deepsight hates me for some reason and is very quick to call me illogical these days.


would have mentioned Jesoul among the cool guys but she runs away when cornered.

thehomer:

The argument depends on the position I hold that you think is fallacious.

That we appeared by random chance !

For that, you'll need to do some actual learning rather than expecting some random stranger to upload gigabytes of information into your brain.

actually I have done all that and worn a t-shirt, I am begging to know how you think we somehow came into existence.

You can use the process of respiration as an example, how did it all start ?

Then within the context of that response, can you show how there can be volition without time? Or how you have intelligence without space?

expatiate please !

@logicboy, lol. Yes, I don't like to participate in endless back & forths if that's what you mean. I make my point and leave the rest to Ireti. Besides, I spend more than 70% of my NL time on modding duties so cannot waste the little precious.

nuclearboy:
You too, Jesoul! Still my favourite NLer

We miss you

[quote author=Logicboy03]I have beef with Majaze and Plaetton


They prefer the patient and mature way of deabting out differences with peeps like Frosbel, Enigma and Stalwert.

I would like to think some people are grown ups, no ?