okeyxyz:
I owe all my existence and "every" pleasure of life to the sun. Fusion is just a process that sustains the sun for my own use. Whatever other purpose you can come up with to argue that is a purpose for the sun will only be theoretical. At least life is very obvious and evident.

okeyxyz:
Purpose is more than simply subjective, It must be testable or useful too. Testable does not mean objective, only there are objective tests and there are subjective tests. Just like beauty and emotion is testable but subjective. So if you cannot demonstrate that a smile means that someone fancies you, then your interpretation of that purpose is only imaginary.

So how does one objectively test that the purpose of fusion [The "supposed personality" that is the creator/cause of the sun] is to give you existence and every pleasure of life? From what you have said, how can any purpose be objectively tested at all?

About your claim on God and the bible, if God is beyond the comprehension of Humans, the why need us to follow and believe in Him at all? When he created us in a way that we would be unable to understand him? Sounds like a set up to me

okeyxyz:
Yes it's subjective, but it is evidence based speculation.

Is there such a thing? Lol Once you have all the evidence you need, is it still speculation?

@okey, where have you been practicing your kung fu? Seems a rival school has opened up somewhere teaching y'all heathens new or hidden techniques.

okeyxyz:

100-percent christian .

what does a 100% Christian mean.

Questions
1. If you are truly a "Christian" then why do you believe in hell
2.if you also believe that Man is God in flesh then why the need to worship "him"..
3. Why do you believe a devil exist
4. Is jesus the only "son" of God
5. Is jesus more powerful or should say " special" than you

I am asking these simple questions without giving much away to see where you stand as a " Christian ".. And then we can discuss from there..

Affiliated:
So how does one objectively test that the purpose of fusion [The "supposed personality" that is the creator/cause of the sun] is to give you existence and every pleasure of life? From what you have said, how can any purpose be objectively tested at all?

That the sun gives life and every pleasure that comes with it is too obvious nah!, you don't need me to explain to you, science has already accomplished the proof.

About your claim on God and the bible, if God is beyond the comprehension of Humans, the why need us to follow and believe in Him at all? When he created us in a way that we would be unable to understand him? Sounds like a set up to me

The wisdom of man I referred to before is science, not common human expressions. We don't understand god because we elevate him to what he is not. We think god is too abstract and unattainable, we search for god through science and religion, thinking that simplicity is too base and cannot possibly be god. But god has chosen the simple things of life to confound the "wise things"(religion/science) of man. 1 Corinthians 1:18-31 is one of several scripture references that indicates this. God is found in more human expressions like loyalty, eating/drinking, se.x, emotions, friendship, etc. And yes, it is a setup. This knowledge of God has been delibrately hidden(made to look foolish) so that it does not fall into the wrong hands("Devil" ).

Affiliated:
Is there such a thing? Lol Once you have all the evidence you need, is it still speculation?

When you don't have all the evidence you need, you can extrapolate/speculate to the unknown. It's called reasoning by induction.

wiegraf: @okey, where have you been practicing your kung fu? Seems a rival school has opened up somewhere teaching y'all heathens new or hidden techniques.

I can see you are enjoying my dance moves and swagger, as I rock this party...

greatgenius: what does a 100% Christian mean.

100% means I have the complete spirit of god. Not in measures.

Questions
1. If you are truly a "Christian" then why do you believe in hell

We yet don't know the true nature of hell. And frankly, I just know that every work has it's "rewards". I'd never bothered much about hell as an afterlife phenomenon because I consider this real life more important and determinant than the one to come, and heaven and hell starts here. As the scripture says: You are rewarded according to your works, both here and in the afterlife(if it comes).

2.if you also believe that Man is God in flesh then why the need to worship "him"..

God is a spirit. Spirit means mindset, principle, character, value-system, behavior. So to worship means to behave according to your mindset and when you exercise the mindset of god then you are god.

3. Why do you believe a devil exist

Is there a spirit of God? yes! Is there a contrary spirit? Yes!! So there is a devil(person or people who exercise this spirit).

4. Is jesus the only "son" of God

It depends on what you mean.
He is the only son of god, in that the principle he established is the only true principle of god.

5. Is jesus more powerful or should say " special" than you

No! We are equal, in quality and quantity.

okeyxyz:

can you give an example? Note: an event must ultimately be useful whether by direct evidence or by induction. Eg: If we say that other stars out there are without purpose and evidence says so, On the other hand We have the sun which supports life with overwhelming evidence, and this sun is a star, then we can induce that the purpose(or at least one of the purposes) of stars is to create/support life. Yes it's subjective, but it is evidence based speculation.

So how are dropping apples frm a tree useful to its cause Gravity??

Affiliated:

Define them please

Freewill is partial like you have opined in your OP and like others have tried to show you. The Biblical view point of freewill is to do something by your self. It doesn't mean to do anything you like. For instance, a freewill offering to God is an offering that you decide to give by choice. It's not demanded but is by choice. But a freewill offering doesn't mean to give your dustbin to God, or your spoilt food. free will needs to be understood in context. You have the freedom to choose life or death i.e choose God or no. You can make a decision without existing. Coming into existence is not by personal choice. God and your parents decided that one, but when you begin to exist, there comes a phase of life when you are able to decide. Decision is always in context. A student has the freedom to choose any of the federal universities BUT he/she needs to have his o'level results and write he entrance exams. He has chosen freely, he can also decide not to choose the university. Also, the university has their own part of choosing the student or no. the university has its terms and conditions. God also has His terms and conditions stated in the Bible. But you have a freedom/freewill to choose Him. The alternative is also clearly stated, and i've seen people who choose the altenaive. the choice is still yours, it's a free world as it were.

^So you agree with me that free will isn't total and complete?

Affiliated: ^So you agree with me that free will isn't total and complete?

Free will is how i explained it. If you think that is total, it is. If you think it is not, it still is. Free will has been given us by God. It's your choice now what to do with it.

^Read my initial post again

Affiliated: Many religions justify God ultimately sending almost all of mankind to an eternal punishment that our most evil minds cannot even comprehend.
The basis for this justification is that God gave us freewill and we didn't choose Him.

i only partially agree with this viewpoint. The basis for punishment is not freewill, i wonder what religion you got that.

Aside from the pettiness and jealously that statement portrays, did God really give us freewill?
Looking at it from an unbiased perspective,

you're looking at it with the bias of what you have read and heard.

I was born on this earth without being given a choice. If there was freewill, I should have been able to choose if i wanted to exist or not.

Read this your statement again until you see how senseless it is please. How can one choose if he/she wants to exist before existing?

But once I can make that choice, then I already exist.
In essence I was not free to make that choice so religion cannot subsequently claim that humans have freewill.

We only have partial freewill from a religious point of view

What is the Bible's definition of free will for instance? Are you speaking out of ignorance? If yes, please say so. If no, give Bible passages that define and shows that man has freewill. thanks.

Image123:
i only partially agree with this viewpoint. The basis for punishment is not freewill, i wonder what religion you got that.

Image123:
You have the freedom to choose life or death i.e choose God or no. You can make a decision without existing. Coming into existence is not by personal choice. God and your parents decided that one

So tell me what the basis for punishment is. If I understood you clearly before, it is because we do not choose God.

Image123:
you're looking at it with the bias of what you have read and heard.

No bias at all

Image123:
Read this your statement again until you see how senseless it is please. How can one choose if he/she wants to exist before existing?

Exactly. That's the point I'm trying to make. I wasn't free to choose if I wanted to exist and be given the choice of God or no God in the first place. You say God and my parents decided that for me which means I wasn't free in that aspect.
Now that existence has been forced on me. The conditions are so onerous to not choose God that my free will is further drastically diminished

Image123:
What is the Bible's definition of free will for instance? Are you speaking out of ignorance? If yes, please say so. If no, give Bible passages that define and shows that man has freewill. thanks.

In line with my explanations above, I insist that I do not have total and complete free will. And to further support this claim, free will according to Merriam-Webster dictionary is : freedom of humans to make choices that are not determined by prior causes or by divine intervention.

And yet the bible shows several instances of God wildly interfering in the freedom of humans to make choices so as to cause them to make a particular choice or prevent them from making a particular choice

bros, where is the the Bible's definition of free will and bible passages i asked for?

I don't know how to reply to your post. I think you understand the point but you are just trying to get lost in unnecessary details.

I don't think the bible explicitly gave a definition of free will as a bible is not a dictionary but the doctrine of free will is evident throughout the bible.
For an example and as regards the passages, I could pick anywhere from the bible but let's stick with Deuteronomy 28

God says there are two choices. Choose me and be blessed e.t.c Don't choose me and be cursed e.t.c You are free to choose [Free will] and the curses are then justified because you were free to choose
But I'm saying that the free will isn't complete because I didn't ask for all this in the first place. i wasn't free to make a choice as to whether I want to exist or not and then be given the God or no God choice. understand?

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy+28&version=NKJV

The link to the chapter for anyone who wants to read it. Some very terrible curses if I might add.
For example

28 The Lord will strike you with madness and blindness and confusion of heart. 29 And you shall grope at noonday, as a blind man gropes in darkness; you shall not prosper in your ways; you shall be only oppressed and plundered continually, and no one shall save you.

30 “You shall betroth a wife, but another man shall lie with her; you shall build a house, but you shall not dwell in it; you shall plant a vineyard, but shall not gather its grapes.

Affiliated:



So tell me what the basis for punishment is. If I understood you clearly before, it is because we do not choose God.

the basis for punishment is sin, not freewill as you stated.

No bias at all

It is a bias, considering that your perspective is based on an irreligious and godless worldview.

Exactly. That's the point I'm trying to make. I wasn't free to choose if I wanted to exist and be given the choice of God or no God in the first place. You say God and my parents decided that for me which means I wasn't free in that aspect.
Now that existence has been forced on me. The conditions are so onerous to not choose God that my free will is further drastically diminished

And were you at anytime or place promised freewill before existence? Does the Bible define freewill or state freewill to include pre-existence?

In line with my explanations above, I insist that I do not have total and complete free will. And to further support this claim, free will according to Merriam-Webster dictionary is : freedom of humans to make choices that are not determined by prior causes or by divine intervention.

The dictionary agrees with my opinion. Humans are free to make choices. But freedom is not limitless. you are a free man, but not free to slap a army man or the governor. you are free to walk around Lagos, but not free to tresspass on private property. that's freedom for you. You are free to vote and be voted for, except that there are other terms attached like not contesting above 80years or below 18years etc. There is no limitless freedom anywhere, but there is freedom nonetheless. freewill is freedom, and freedom comes with a price. Like they say, great power comes with great responsiblity.

And yet the bible shows several instances of God wildly interfering in the freedom of humans to make choices so as to cause them to make a particular choice or prevent them from making a particular choice

please state every instance you know of, i would like to look into it.

I don't know how to reply to your post. I think you understand the point but you are just trying to get lost in unnecessary details.

I don't think the bible explicitly gave a definition of free will as a bible is not a dictionary but the doctrine of free will is evident throughout the bible.
For an example and as regards the passages, I could pick anywhere from the bible but let's stick with Deuteronomy 28

God says there are two choices. Choose me and be blessed e.t.c Don't choose me and be cursed e.t.c You are free to choose [Free will] and the curses are then justified because you were free to choose
But I'm saying that the free will isn't complete because I didn't ask for all this in the first place. i wasn't free to make a choice as to whether I want to exist or not and then be given the God or no God choice. understand?

you should be willing to give the Bible definition so that we can prove if there is any fault on God keeping up with His definition. from what you have posted about Biblical freewill, it is evident that freewill has conditions. Freewill has context. Like i said earlier, a freewill offering doesn't mean you would offer your dustbin to God. It still has to be in line with what God approves, but you offer it at your own decision. freewill is a major component of every human soul. it is decision. we have the freedom to decide. You can decide to eat now or later, sleep now or later, study or not study, eat or not eat, go to church or not go, love or hate, serve God or not serve Him, give your life to Christ or not give it to Christ. that is freewill. We are not limited to instincts like animals. We can MORE EASILY and frequently make intelligent or unintelligent decisions.

okeyxyz:
100% means I have the complete spirit of god. Not in measures.

This is an arrogant statement borne out of ignorance. this is the problem with religion, it destroys and dis-unifies. everyone thinks their version of God is the real one..
claiming to have the complete spirit of God as a 100% christian suggests that non Christians do not have the complete spirit. how can that be when all were created in the image and likeness of God.. you just admitted and rightly so not long ago that humans are God made man and yet you believe to be 100% christian is to have the complete spirit of God. well i tell you god brother everyone and all things have the complete sporit of God in them.

We yet don't know the true nature of hell. And frankly, I just know that every work has it's "rewards". I'd never bothered much about hell as an afterlife phenomenon because I consider this real life more important and determinant than the one to come, and heaven and hell starts here. As the scripture says: You are rewarded according to your works, both here and in the afterlife(if it comes).

1.every work has it "rewards" is the same thing as saying you get what you put in; or you reap what you sow. it is about cause and effect.. about consequences. a natural outcome. it has nothing to do with the christian version of hell, a place of eternal damnation..any christian that has the capacity to think and ask questions will tell you that the concept of hell does not make sense. it doesnt make sense and actually foolish for an ominpotent, omniscient and omnipresent God which is everything and all things to "punish" eternally some part of himself.. he is only punishing himself and no one else.. falsely contrived dogmas such as these are the reason why most people asking questions turns into agnostics and to the extreme end atheist. as it turns out relighon has done more harm than Good to your species. it is time for humanity to go back to spirituality.

2. And yes heaven and earth starts here. in fact it is right here on your earth. but the only thing real is heaven because "hell" does not exist. like darkness, hell is an illusion.so step out of the darkness and let your light obliterate it.

God is a spirit. Spirit means mindset, principle, character, value-system, behavior. So to worship means to behave according to your mindset and when you exercise the mindset of god then you are god.

ok stop playing semantics you know exactly what i meant by "worship"..but speaking of mindset i got news for you, you are always exercising the mindset of a god. always(all-ways )You are God. we all are.. if to worship means to behave according to "your mindset", then i tell you what you have a "lower" mindset because you worship another. it time to step into a higher consciousnesses.. but since you dodged my question i will tell you this. anyone or deity that has the need or demand for you WORSHIP means they lack something..think about this for a minute because most of you make a mockery of God.
Understand that anyone with absolute power lacks nothing. ABSOLUTE POWER DEMANDS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.God is absolutely EVERYTHING and therefore, wants, needs and demands absolultey NOTHING. thats the true nature of God. any relighon or person that tells you God needs your worship or belief and disobeying means eternal damnation for you is serving a false God. and also lying to you.

Is there a spirit of God? yes! Is there a contrary spirit? Yes!! So there is a devil(person or people who exercise this spirit)

There is one spirit.The spirit of God. in the world of the relative there is only Love and Fear. everything is a derivative of these two. what you have chosen to call "God" is the love and fear the "devil". love and fear are the extreme ends of the same thing. The positive and negative is really the same thing. jsut as black and white is the same thing. it is only black or white depending on the perspective or the angle of perception..

It depends on what you mean.
He is the only son of god, in that the principle he established is the only true principle of god.

wrong. jesus is the son of God but he is not the only son of God. we are all sons of God..Christ is God made Man. He is simply not the only man made of God. we are all God made man. jesus or yahshua reached the highest state of Godhood or self actualization while on earth BUT he is simply not the only one to reach that highest state. your destiny and humanity destiny is to get to that highest state like Jesus and others did and you cannot not reach there.
There are many many paths. and jesus path is not the only true path.

No! We are equal, in quality and quantity.

good.. yet you think jesus established principles are the only true principles. what about your principles? i am trying to have you think here so it will be better to suspend all your religious dogmas and beliefs for a second.

Image123:
the basis for punishment is sin, not freewill as you stated.

It would seem you enjoy back and forth. Isn't sin supposed to be disobeying God's laws thereby choosing some other God or outright refusal to choose God and his laws. Isn't the keyword here choice as is stated severally in the bible "Choose life" and so on? If not then briefly describe or define sin

Image123:
It is a bias, considering that your perspective is based on an irreligious and godless worldview.

OK. Then yours is a bias considering that your perspective is based on a religious and godful view. I maintain that mine isn't a bias. I'm just analyzing the doctrines of the bible and its followers. My personal beliefs have nothing to do with it and I am not even arguing from the point of view of my personal beliefs so how can an objective analysis be biased?

Image123:
And were you at anytime or place promised freewill before existence? Does the Bible define freewill or state freewill to include pre-existence?

Thats the whole point I'm making. It is a paradox to claim i have total and complete free will when I didn't have free will from the beginning. [Freedom to exist or not]

Image123:
The dictionary agrees with my opinion. Humans are free to make choices. But freedom is not limitless. you are a free man, but not free to slap a army man or the governor. you are free to walk around Lagos, but not free to tresspass on private property. that's freedom for you. You are free to vote and be voted for, except that there are other terms attached like not contesting above 80years or below 18years etc. There is no limitless freedom anywhere, but there is freedom nonetheless. freewill is freedom, and freedom comes with a price. Like they say, great power comes with great responsiblity.

1. According to the dictionary free will and freedom are not entirely the same thing

Free will 1 : voluntary choice or decision *I do this of my own free will*
2 : freedom of humans to make choices that are not determined by prior causes or by divine intervention

Freedom 1 : the quality or state of being free: as a : the absence of necessity, coercion, or constraint in choice or action b : liberation from slavery or restraint or from the power of another : INDEPENDENCE c : the quality or state of being exempt or released usually from something onerous.

Coercion: 3 : to achieve by force or threat *coerce compliance*

So from my interpretation, free will has to do with choices strictly why freedom is absence of coercion in choice or action. I can further state that freedom is the absence of coercion to people's freewill

From a biblical point of view I have neither total and complete free will nor freedom. [READ DEUTERONOMY 28]

About the human laws, you are not talking about free will at all which man cannot give other men. you are talking about freedom. They are not the same thing. Only God can give freewill [supposedly]

Image123:
please state every instance you know of, i would like to look into it.

its not necessary to the argument and I don't have the time to do that. Deuteronomy 28 would suffice

Image123:
you should be willing to give the Bible definition so that we can prove if there is any fault on God keeping up with His definition. from what you have posted about Biblical freewill, it is evident that freewill has conditions. Freewill has context. Like i said earlier, a freewill offering doesn't mean you would offer your dustbin to God. It still has to be in line with what God approves, but you offer it at your own decision. freewill is a major component of every human soul. it is decision. we have the freedom to decide. You can decide to eat now or later, sleep now or later, study or not study, eat or not eat, go to church or not go, love or hate, serve God or not serve Him, give your life to Christ or not give it to Christ. that is freewill. We are not limited to instincts like animals. We can MORE EASILY and frequently make intelligent or unintelligent decisions.

There is no bible definition but let me tell you how the argument goes
[Question: Why would God create me just to end up punishing me so severely [Deuteronomy 28] Answer: He gave you a choice and you chose destruction and curses. You had free will. For example after God's long cursing spree, he ended with this: Deuteronomy 30:19 This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live]

So I argue that God didn't give me a choice as to whether I should be put into that situation in the first place and therefore my choices were not complete So my free will isn't total and complete.
That's why i said its a paradox because God would have to make me exist in the first place before presenting me with the first choice to exist or not which then creates the problem again because I am already existing.

greatgenius your words always resonate within my spirit. I'm really enjoying your argument/case

^
I'd address your post later, meanwhile can you tell where you get this your definition of total freewill?

^Merriam-Webster's 11th Collegiate dictionary

Affiliated: greatgenius your words always resonate within my spirit. I'm really enjoying your argument/case

well i am glad it resonates god brother.. it is time for people to awake from their fear based religious dogmas.. religion have done enough harm. its turning people away from God instead of to it.

@greatgenuis

I am really enjoying ur posts, pls I want to know more about u, how did u come about this knowledge(what's ur source of belief), do u have books that I can read. I must confess, ur words make sense more than thousands of pastors that I have heard preach. Honestly church have really become a bore as I am very much aware that pastors do not even know what they are talkin about.

double

Affiliated: ^Merriam-Webster's 11th Collegiate dictionary

TOTAL freewill? or just ''freewill''

Free will. But its common sense to know when something is being impeded. Free will is free will and my free will has being impeded hence its not total

greatgenius: This is an arrogant statement borne out of ignorance. this is the problem with religion, it destroys and dis-unifies. everyone thinks their version of God is the real one..
claiming to have the complete spirit of God as a 100% christian suggests that non Christians do not have the complete spirit.

So if I feel that somebody else is not correct in his own opinion, how does that make him my enemy then? If going by your own perception that everybody is an enemy of the other, then there wouldn't be a society. This world would be one big jungle where the only rule is "Kill or be Killed". You fail to demonstrate that you you have adequate understanding of christiany, else you would know that this same christianity mandates peace with all people, systems and authorities that we come in contact with.

how can that be when all were created in the image and likeness of God.. you just admitted and rightly so not long ago that humans are God made man and yet you believe to be 100% christian is to have the complete spirit of God. well i tell you god brother everyone and all things have the complete sporit of God in them.

All men are created in the image of god, that is without doubt and besides the point. Lives and systems are not about what your potentials are, rather it is the knowledge and achievemnt of these potentials that makes one to truly command this status. You may be born a prince, but if all your life you have been raised to be a slave, well guess what: you will live and die a slave even though you have royal blood running in your veins. I'd expect that these principles are obvious to you, but it seems not. Why are some people slaves to other people? Is it not that the slavers have the knowledge and tools to dominate and instill fear upon the others, thus making them subservient and slaves? Yet you are here wanting to rope and judge everybody together by same measure. Talk about ignorance and arrogance...

1.every work has it "rewards" is the same thing as saying you get what you put in; or you reap what you sow. it is about cause and effect.. about consequences. a natural outcome. it has nothing to do with the christian version of hell, a place of eternal damnation..any christian that has the capacity to think and ask questions will tell you that the concept of hell does not make sense. it doesnt make sense and actually foolish for an ominpotent, omniscient and omnipresent God which is everything and all things to "punish" eternally some part of himself.. he is only punishing himself and no one else.. falsely contrived dogmas such as these are the reason why most people asking questions turns into agnostics and to the extreme end atheist. as it turns out relighon has done more harm than Good to your species. it is time for humanity to go back to spirituality.

Precisely what issues do you have with the concept of hell? Are you crying-out against the misrepresentation of hell or is it the existence at all of hell that you have a quarrel with? I my comment to which you are reacting to specifically stated that: "We yet do not understand the true nature of hell..." which leaves me wondering: what exactly are you trying to disprove with this arguments? A claim I never made? A position I never took? There's no point taking on this debate because you are "shooting" in another direction that is not mine. If you want a debate then address my opinions, not the opinions of people you assume to be on my side. You really are not demonstrating much analytical skills so far..

2. And yes heaven and earth starts here. in fact it is right here on your earth. but the only thing real is heaven because "hell" does not exist. like darkness, hell is an illusion.so step out of the darkness and let your light obliterate it.

Hell is an outcome, not an illusion. The funny thing is that you seem to think that your opinions here are unchristian? Like I said before, you don't understand christianity, you focus on churches today and woefully assume they are correctly representing christian doctrine. Else you would realise that anytime Jesus speaks a parable about hell, he would start with: "The kingdom of God is like ..."

ok stop playing semantics you know exactly what i meant by "worship"..but speaking of mindset i got news for you, you are always exercising the mindset of a god. always(all-ways )You are God. we all are.. if to worship means to behave according to "your mindset", then i tell you what you have a "lower" mindset because you worship another. it time to step into a higher consciousnesses.. but since you dodged my question i will tell you this. anyone or deity that has the need or demand for you WORSHIP means they lack something..think about this for a minute because most of you make a mockery of God. Understand that anyone with absolute power lacks nothing. ABSOLUTE POWER DEMANDS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.God is absolutely EVERYTHING and therefore, wants, needs and demands absolultey NOTHING. thats the true nature of God. any relighon or person that tells you God needs your worship or belief and disobeying means eternal damnation for you is serving a false God. and also lying to you.

Again! and again!! and again!!! You keep jumping-off to issues I never raised, claims i never made.... What part of my definition of worship don't you understand? If you need clarification, the wise and sound thing would have been to simply ask. You are not making a good presentation here.

There is one spirit.The spirit of God. in the world of the relative there is only Love and Fear. everything is a derivative of these two. what you have chosen to call "God" is the love and fear the "devil". love and fear are the extreme ends of the same thing. The positive and negative is really the same thing. just as black and white is the same thing. it is only black or white depending on the perspective or the angle of perception..

Funny that you actually think you are saying something different from my position. The bible refers to the spirit of the devil as the spirit of disobedience and fear. Yet all these behaviours are treated in the context of: "The kingdom of god is like..." Answer me this: Does a son who disobeys his father nullify his sonship? Does it change the fact that he proceeded from that genes of the father? Yet, because of his disobedience, he will not get the rewards of this father like for the sons who were obedient.

wrong. jesus is the son of God but he is not the only son of God. we are all sons of God..Christ is God made Man. He is simply not the only man made of God. we are all God made man. jesus or yahshua reached the highest state of Godhood or self actualization while on earth BUT he is simply not the only one to reach that highest state. your destiny and humanity destiny is to get to that highest state like Jesus and others did and you cannot not reach there.
There are many many paths. and jesus path is not the only true path.

You are here judging the validity or not of jesus and other "enlightened ones" when we have not even debated what their messages\gospels are that makes them true spirits of god. Answer me: What in your opinion makes Jesus the son of god? What is the principle that made him attain this enlightenment that we all seek? You are clearly throwing conflicting and confusing assertions here. A moment ago you said everybody has the same amount of the spirit of god, yet here you counter-claiming that there are some like jesus who have attained this godhood while many others will never do so. You seem to want to oppose me just for the heck!! of it rather than difference in ideology.

good.. yet you think jesus established principles are the only true principles. what about your principles? i am trying to have you think here so it will be better to suspend all your religious dogmas and beliefs for a second.

Yes, jesus christ's principles are the one, true principles of god. Mine are not different from his. It is the same principle(spirit) that makes us sons of the same god and same inheritance. It is a flawed logic that assumes that two different individuals must follow two differnt world/spiritual views like you assert.

okeyxyz:

So if I feel that somebody else is not correct in his own opinion, how does that make him my enemy then?

first of why would you feel somebody else opinion is false.. and i wouldnt use enemy per say here but if you want to go that route then fine..but by the very definition of "enemy" yes they are your enemy.. they have an opposing view , one which you dont hesitate to condemn them for it.

If going by your own perception that everybody is an enemy of the other, then there wouldn't be a society. This world would be one big jungle where the only rule is "Kill or be Killed".

lol have you taken a look at the world lately?..with the differnt religions pitching againsst each other and people with opposing views in each other throats..humanity is on the verge of destroying itself from within.. lets take nigeria for example, the northern part will not hesitate to wipe of the christian south off the map if given the chance... likewise worldwide, "christians" have killed more people in the name of jesus than in any other man in history... there have been more people killed in current human history in the name of "GoD" than in any other human era..countries have even gone to war over something as little as a piece of land..

You fail to demonstrate that you you have adequate understanding of christiany,

i do but i am trying to understand if you do one of the reasons why we having this discussion..

else you would know that this same christianity mandates peace with all people, systems and authorities that we come in contact with.

mandating something and practicing it is two different things god brother

All men are created in the image of god, that is without doubt and besides the point. Lives and systems are not about what your potentials are, rather it is the knowledge and achievemnt of these potentials that makes one to truly command this status. You may be born a prince, but if all your life you have been raised to be a slave, well guess what: you will live and die a slave even though you have royal blood running in your veins.

its all about freewill and choices brother..if anyone is raised a slave and its not their will then you have infringed on their freewill to choose.. they will resent you and eventual revolt or kill you.. why would you force anyone to be a slave. why force anyone or raise anyone to be a slave.. This is why your world is still uncivilised..servitute should be done out of love and not coercion or fear..and one of the greatest show of love is service to self and another..something the man you follow jesus did to the T.

I'd expect that these principles are obvious to you, but it seems not. Why are some people slaves to other people? Is it not that the slavers have the knowledge and tools to dominate [/b]and instill[b] fear upon the others, thus making them subservient and slaves? Yet you are here wanting to rope and judge everybody together by same measure.

at bolded. sadly you and most of humanity have bought into the survival of the fittest lie. one of the greatest lie ever.. pray tell how has that served you..how has the quest for power served you..

Talk about ignorance and arrogance...

no you are exhibiting both not me. so much for calling yourself a christian. your master Jesus will be proud..

Precisely what issues do you have with the concept of hell? Are you crying-out against the misrepresentation of hell or is it the existence at all of hell that you have a quarrel with? I my comment to which you are reacting to specifically stated that: "We yet do not understand the true nature of hell..." which leaves me wondering: what exactly are you trying to disprove with this arguments? A claim I never made? A position I never took? There's no point taking on this debate because you are "shooting" in another direction that is not mine. If you want a debate then address my opinions, not the opinions of people you assume to be on my side. You really are not demonstrating much analytical skills so far..

ok i am going to ask the qustion again.. as the 100% christian that you are do you believe hell..do you believe that your God will conderm you to hell if you were not to believe in him.. saying you do not understand the true nature of hell is not the same thing as you don't believe that a place called hell exist for non believers... you danced around the question so i went ahead and said what i said..

Hell is an outcome, not an illusion.

lol are illusions not an outcome? again what do you think hell is..

The funny thing is that you seem to think that your opinions here are unchristian?

i have never thought that.. the real definition of christian just means Christ-like..jesus was Christ-like. alot of people have been christ-like and anyone can be christ-like..

Like I said before, you don't understand christianity

no i am begining to think you dont..

you focus on churches today and woefully assume they are correctly representing christian doctrine.

lol ok what is the correct christian doctrine. let me see what you know..

[ Else you would realise that anytime Jesus speaks a parable about hell, he would start with: "The kingdom of God is like ..."

ok and what do you think jesus meant. what do think the kingdom of God means.

Again! and again!! and again!!! You keep jumping-off to issues I never raised, claims i never made.... What part of my definition of worship don't you understand? If you need clarification, the wise and sound thing would have been to simply ask. You are not making a good presentation here.

lol i see you like dancing go and read what i said again...but i will ask you again here. as a christian why do you see the need to worship God.. if you want be to give you the standard definition of worship i will provide it..i want us to have a decent matured discussion not play semantics..this is not an argument to score cheap points and as such the need to dance around is not needed here..if you think otherwise then there is no need to continue.

Funny that you actually think you are saying something different from my position.

actually i didnt . not entirely but where we differ and i sought to explain is the fact that there is no need to personify fear as the devil or satan because not only is fear an illusion but the devil or satan as a person does not exist period.

The bible refers to the spirit of the devil as the spirit of disobedience and fear.

i dont know about the spirit of disobedience and why it was put in the bible but i will go with the spirit of fear..but again sayng the spirit of the devil suggest there is such a thing or person as the devil which is not true..

Yet all these behaviours are treated in the context of: "The kingdom of god is like..." Answer me this: Does a son who disobeys his father nullify his sonship? Does it change the fact that he proceeded from that genes of the father? Yet, because of his disobedience, he will not get the rewards of this father like for the sons who were obedient.

the answer to your questions is NO.. but this is the core of humanities problem and the bane of existence of religion as relate to God.. but i will not jump the gun here. are you in anyhow inferring that the son father example you gave is just like the relationship we have with God. that obeying means reward and disobeying means punishment?.. you make a mockery of God, god brother.

You are here judging the validity or not of jesus and other "enlightened ones" when we have not even debated what their messages\gospels are that makes them true spirits of god. Answer me: What in your opinion makes Jesus the son of god? What is the principle that made him attain this enlightenment that we all seek? y.

1.ok then lets debate their messages maybe then we might see who has the true spirit of God.. lol why dont we do that..
2. jesus is the son of God just as everyone is the son of God. we were all"created" and came from God. i dont see how else you want me to explain this... and jesus attaining enlightement is not so much as a matter of principles but choice. but then again principles are choices. you can choose to be like jesus right now and attain enlightenment if you choose.. The principles should be to stand on the side of truth(love) and make the right choices. attaining christ-like is the grandest expression of who you really are..jesus took one life time to do it. many have taking one life time to do. others have taken more lifetimes to do it. its all a matter of choice..

You are clearly throwing conflicting and confusing assertions here. A moment ago you said everybody has the same amount of the spirit of god, yet here you counter-claiming that there are some like jesus who have attained this godhood while many others will never do so. You seem to want to oppose me just for the heck!! of it rather than difference in ideolog

lol i never said many other will never do you are. but again god brother understand that someone making a different choice from you which could be considered an "error" does not mean they do not have the complete spirit of God within them..it is foolish to think that.. reaching adulthood does not make you more of a human than a baby or teenager..the baby will surely get to adulthood. he cannot not get there..Godhood just means self-actualization or reaching the highest level of consciousnesses/awareness..

Yes, jesus christ's principles are the one, true principles of god. Mine are not different from his. It is the same principle(spirit) that makes us sons of the same god and same inheritance. It is a flawed logic that assumes that two different individuals must follow two different world/spiritual views like you assert.

dude understand that there are many many ways to skin a cat lol..many many paths lead to the same destination my friend..some short, some long , some tedious, painful etc etc but they all lead to the same destination.. but before i say more about this pray tell what are jesus christ principles..