MetaPhysical:

I agree. A nation must live by the principle of evolution..it must periodically be killed and reborn. Yoruba is continously being killed, no one has reborn it in 30yrs, very troubling for our evolutiin forward.

Oyo became the standard from an administrative need of the colonial government to better supervise and manage the territories. The work of Crowther was more than just missionary, he was also instrumental in calibrating the alphabets. The alphabets need a review and recalibration and this should be the work of our linguists.

Visitors to the next Olympics will see Brazil but will also be exposed to Yoruba influence and this will open a new gate in cultural interest and exchanges, writers, film makers and so on that will again promote Yoruba culture. Perharps we can expect, in addition to the proud past, an emerging future that could make Ifa a world religion.

[b]Yoruba leaders can take us out of Nigeria before tomorrow has dawned, they know what to do politically and legally to make that a reality. [/b]There are certain social structures that were lost to the Nigerian identity and we need first to regain and reinstall those. We have to regain it through the electoral and legislative process first, its a drawn out struggle. If Yoruba can continue to install one government and agenda on the land like we did with AG, UPN and now ACN, I believe in another 20 or 30yrs of that uniformity Yoruba will comfortably divest itself from Nigeria .

The Olympics will be held in Rio which has little Yoruba influence. Visitors to the WC will be more exposed to Yoruba culture in Bahia.

I don't what you mean by Ifa being a world religion. Isn't it practiced by those who believe in it? Why do others need to practice it? The acceptance of your religion by others doesn't make it the right religion.

It would not be so easy to take Yoruba out of Nigeria. I also believe that a common enemy unites the Yoruba. Nigeria united the Yoruba; I fear that there could be a return to old rivalries in a Yoruba only nation. Just my opinion.

MetaPhysical: Shymexx,

On the comparisons of English and Yoruba words, Im not on a wild goose chase; I have a vast collection of words and sounds like I said primarily connecting Yoruba with Old Hebrew language. The keyword is "old hebrew"! That language had origin in Canaan and gave birth to many other modern languages of North Africa, Middle East and influenced Latin/Roman vocabulary.

I looked at how a word as simple as "ra", just two letter words, ended up with penetrating influence in the life of many cultures around the globe.

Im not going to get peoples ears if I start showing how Yoruba is direct linked with modern semitic and arabic languages, simply because no one here will appreciate the connection and anything arab is an automatic turn off. If I say the english word "behind" and yoruba word "ehin" are cognates people will not have problem accepting that. However if I say english word "lately" and yoruba word "lailai" (layelaye) are cognates I will get a pushback. Also, nobody will appreciate that the english word "run" and yoruba word "orun" (sun) have same root. So I have to be careful what I share and its presentation..there is need for softness.

I use english words for the comparisons with Yoruba to highlight the fact that they are both contributions from the same bucket and that bucket is in Egypt/Canaan and thus advancing the placement of Yoruba in AfroAsiatic founding.

I am sorry but that is a lot of BS. How can behind and ehin be cognates? The problem with your approach is that you think speaking and reading/writing were developed at the same time. If we don't read and write language, how would you describe the relationship between 'behind' and 'ehin' other than then ehin letters being present in behind?

You are correct in that nobody will buy the relationships you are suggesting. English and Yoruba do not have the same proto language. Linguistic relationships are based on shared characteristics that do not result from borrowing. Portuguese has many words that are borrowed from Japanese. Someone using your approach will conclude that Portuguese and Japanese are cognates. Obrigado for instance was derived from Arigato; 'arigato is Romaji (application of latin writing to Japanese) which is quite different from the normal Japanese style of logographic characterization.

Katsumoto:

The Olympics will be held in Rio which has little Yoruba influence. Visitors to the WC will be more exposed to Yoruba culture in Bahia.

I don't what you mean by Ifa being a world religion. Isn't it practiced by those who believe in it? Why do others need to practice it? The acceptance of your religion by others doesn't make it the right religion.

It would not be so easy to take Yoruba out of Nigeria. I also believe that a common enemy unites the Yoruba. Nigeria united the Yoruba; I fear that there could be a return to old rivalries in a Yoruba only nation. Just my opinion.

Yes thats true but visitors are reading up on Brazil before they even get there and places of interest are earmarked for visitation.

Mr Katsumoto, religion has failed humanity. It is sad, that even the teachings of God and the doctrines of morality has failed to concile the spirit to its state of righteousness. Who can save us from the deceipts and immorality of religion? People are insatiated by a hunger to know self..they need a substitute. People are returning to their own inner fires for self salvation and this is why yoga, taichi and all these new age spirituality are spreading. They are old secrets finding new subscribers.

Ifa is a spirituality, not a religion.

Shymexx responded to you and earlier on the topic of good/bad. A good person worships man and dogmas, a bad person worships himself..only someone who is balanced between good and bad worships God and they are good company to have. Living good and bad is in line with the universal principle of harmony and balance.."the median way". Religion taught good as God and positioned bad as evil, but failed to extoll the virtues of the middle path, the inner struggle and its paradoxes and what it means in mundane living. Ifa teaches the opposite. Ifa teaches and extols Eshu, the guardian of the middle path - harmony and balance.

I am in reference to political sovereingty when i say take Yoruba out of Nigeria. Socially, we will continue to have diversity in Yorubaland and cohabit with other ethnics but in a diplomatic arrangement. The experience of 1899 to regional Independence in 1957 is a marker, that of 1963 to date is another marker.

In its history, both in wartimes and peacetimes, no bloody person ever told Ife or Oyo what to do..no one, until after Kiriji! The colonial foreigners gave orders to Oyo and Ife from 1900 to 1957. Then from 1963 forward, Nigerian leaders gave orders to Oyo and Ife.

We might not return to an ancient structure of rulership but the political heirarchy of Yoruba nation will never change from its ancestry. The head of Yoruba nation will not be a President, it will be a Crowned King..and we hold true as part of our constitution tha the Head is the overall ownership of a destiny, therefore divesting away from an arrangement in which our Heads and destiny is directed and ordered by a Igbo or Hausa or Ijaw is in our collective interest, self serving and great for our future, inspite of other oddities laying in wait to haunt us internally and from within our commonwealth.

Katsumoto:

I am sorry but that is a lot of BS. How can behind and ehin be cognates? The problem with your approach is that you think speaking and reading/writing were developed at the same time. If we don't read and write language, how would you describe the relationship between 'behind' and 'ehin' other than then ehin letters being present in behind?

You are correct in that nobody will buy the relationships you are suggesting. English and Yoruba do not have the same proto language. Linguistic relationships are based on shared characteristics that do not result from borrowing. Portuguese has many words that are borrowed from Japanese. Someone using your approach will conclude that Portuguese and Japanese are cognates. Obrigado for instance was derived from Arigato; 'arigato is Romaji (application of latin writing to Japanese) which is quite different from the normal Japanese style of logographic characterization.

You are looking at "spoken words" from one dimensional flat experience.

Your brain is capable of processing the text but your spirit is not broad enough to see or appreciate the many waves and spectrum involved in the sound of the letters themselves.

Quincy Jones, in an interview, once said there are sixteen notes in music. He shocked his host and guests who were raised learning only 7, and at the orchestra level 12.

You are right, its BS and I will leave it at that.

MetaPhysical:

Yes thats true but visitors are reading up on Brazil before they even get there and places of interest are earmarked for visitation.

Mr Katsumoto, religion has failed humanity. It is sad, that even the teachings of God and the doctrines of morality has failed to concile the spirit to its state of righteousness. Who can save us from the deceipts and immorality of religion? People are insatiated by a hunger to know self..they need a substitute. People are returning to their own inner fires for self salvation and this is why yoga, taichi and all these new age spirituality are spreading. They are old secrets finding new subscribers.

Ifa is a spirituality, not a religion.

Shymexx responded to you and earlier on the topic of good/bad. A good person worships man and dogmas, a bad person worships himself..only someone who is balanced between good and bad worships God and they are good company to have. Living good and bad is in line with the universal principle of harmony and balance.."the median way". Religion taught good as God and positioned bad as evil, but failed to extoll the virtues of the middle path, the inner struggle and its paradoxes and what it means in mundane living. Ifa teaches the opposite. Ifa teaches and extols Eshu, the guardian of the middle path - harmony and balance.

I am in reference to political sovereingty when i say take Yoruba out of Nigeria. Socially, we will continue to have diversity in Yorubaland and cohabit with other ethnics but in a diplomatic arrangement. The experience of 1899 to regional Independence in 1957 is a marker, that of 1963 to date is another marker.

In its history, both in wartimes and peacetimes, no bloody person ever told Ife or Oyo what to do..no one, until after Kiriji! The colonial foreigners gave orders to Oyo and Ife from 1900 to 1957. Then from 1963 forward, Nigerian leaders gave orders to Oyo and Ife.

We might not return to an ancient structure of rulership but the political heirarchy of Yoruba nation will never change from its ancestry. [b]The head of Yoruba nation will not be a President, it will be a Crowned King..[/b]and we hold true as part of our constitution tha the Head is the overall ownership of a destiny, therefore divesting away from an arrangement in which our Heads and destiny is directed and ordered by a Igbo or Hausa or Ijaw is in our collective interest, self serving and great for our future, inspite of other oddities laying in wait to haunt us internally and from within our commonwealth.

1. You called Ifa a religion and I was only using your nomenclature when I referred to Ifa as a religion. So you are only correcting yourself. Lets try to be consistent and not try to appear more knowledgeable in debate.

2. Who will be this crowned king? That there is the first problem you will create. This problem in itself will recreate Kiriji and will kill the Odua nation. If the kings of old could not eliminate one another through war and conquest, what right would any of them have to lay claim as the supreme leader? Trying to impose one religion will also create problems. In my view, Yoruba sons and daughters should only be educated about Ifa corpus through to Secondary school. Everyone should practice what works for them. What should bind Yoruba should be a socio-cultural bond.

Katsumoto:

I am sorry but that is a lot of BS. How can behind and ehin be cognates? The problem with your approach is that you think speaking and reading/writing were developed at the same time. If we don't read and write language, how would you describe the relationship between 'behind' and 'ehin' other than then ehin letters being present in behind?

You are correct in that nobody will buy the relationships you are suggesting. English and Yoruba do not have the same proto language. Linguistic relationships are based on shared characteristics that do not result from borrowing. Portuguese has many words that are borrowed from Japanese. Someone using your approach will conclude that Portuguese and Japanese are cognates. Obrigado for instance was derived from Arigato; 'arigato is Romaji (application of latin writing to Japanese) which is quite different from the normal Japanese style of logographic characterization.

Kats--I agree with the sentiment of your post but I don't think there's any evidence that Japanese needed to borrow a term of thanks from Portuguese (or vice verse). In fact, there's every reason to believe that they are false cognates--two words that have very similar meanings in different languages and are assumed to have the same origin. More here.

The obrigado/arigato issue is an example of the sorts of fanciful etymologies and guesswork-turned-rumor-turned-fact that can cause confusion about history and plagues this thread. I once gave the example of the Latin word "ubi" and the Ife-Ijesha dialect "ubi" (standard Yoruba "ibi", all roughly meaning "somewhere", "a place" etc) here on Nairaland as an example of false cognates. Since then though, I've seen some misguided people use it as "proof" of the relationship between Latin and Yoruba.

Similarly, we have a Yoruba word like "Oduduwa" with primordial Yoruba translations and attachments to other religious terms like "odu" and "olodumare", but we are asked to believe that it is the name of a foreign warrior in an unknown language, a "corruption" of a Bini phrase ("Imadoduwa" ) etc. These are highly unlikely roots.

Shymexx--

shymexx:

- I honestly believe everyone is trying to dissociate Yoruba history from MENA (Middle East and North Africa) because of what present day Arabs are like and what that part of the world is known for. However, if we look beyond that, and focus on timeline and how close it's to all the other Nile Valley civilisations - it might be plausible, to be honest. We just need to accept everyone's hypothesis for now and keep doing research about the origin of the Yoruba's, since we all know Yoruba didn't start in Ife.

In order to indulge this idea, I'd like to ask a few questions. If we are to accept that Egyptians were the founding figures in Ife, where are the hallmarks of Egyptian classical civilization in West Africa? Why are there no pyramids, hieroglyphs, hieratic writing, mummification, Egyptian regalia and so on? Conversely, why does Yoruba culture in general and Ife art in particular venerate the head in such specific detail, making them one-third of the full size of their sculptures? What is the Egyptian equivalent to "ori inu" or the Ogboni handshake? Where are the orikis in Egyptian culture and where is there a record of Ifa divination with opon and iroke? Why are the Yoruba deities quite geographically specific--the Rivers Niger and Osun, the hills of Ibadan, Ire-Ekiti and so on--with no reference to the Nile, the Tigris or the Euphrates? These are specifically Yoruba details with no known parallels to these supposedly ancenstral cultures. Why is that? If Egyptians had some sort of formative influence on the culture of Ife, they seem to have left remarkably little evidence of their presence. On the other hand, there is quite a lot of proof and a logical reason to believe that Yoruba culture developed relatively close to the areas in which it is currently practiced.

How do we all know that Yoruba didn't start in Ife, by the way? I'm just wondering about the source of your specific belief.

TerraCotta:

Kats--I agree with the sentiment of your post but I don't think there's any evidence that Japanese needed to borrow a term of thanks from Portuguese (or vice verse). In fact, there's every reason to believe that they are false cognates--two words that have very similar meanings in different languages and are assumed to have the same origin. More here.

The obrigado/arigato issue is an example of the sorts of fanciful etymologies and guesswork-turned-rumor-turned-fact that can cause confusion about history and plagues this thread. I once gave the example of the Latin word "ubi" and the Ife-Ijesha dialect "ubi" (standard Yoruba "ibi", all roughly meaning "somewhere", "a place" etc) here on Nairaland as an example of false cognates. Since then though, I've seen some misguided people use it as "proof" of the relationship between Latin and Yoruba.

Similarly, we have a Yoruba word like "Oduduwa" with primordial Yoruba translations and attachments to other religious terms like "odu" and "olodumare", but we are asked to believe that it is the name of a foreign warrior in an unknown language, a "corruption" of a Bini phrase ("Imadoduwa" ) etc. These are highly unlikely roots.

No where in my post did I suggest that Arigato and Obrigado are cognates. The fact is that Portuguese has words in it that were borrowed from Japan when Portuguese Jesuit priests went to Japan. This is one of the reasons for the differences in certain words that are present in Portuguese but not in Spanish (Castilian) and other Western Iberian languages such as Asturian, Galician, etc.. Most of the words in Portuguese are similar to Spanish words save for spelling differences. The Spanish say muchas gracias but the Portuguese say muito/a Obrigado/a depending on whether is a man or woman saying it. Gracias is feminine which is why muchas must be feminine but obrigado can be both feminine and masculine. This is also partly for the differences between European Portuguese and Brazilian Portuguese, since European Portuguese changed a bit since Portuguese was introduced to Brazil in the 15th century. I don't know about many other languages but I know that Portuguese has many borrowed words and English borrowed many latin/romance words. Is your point specific to Japanese/Portuguese or do you believe that languages don't borrow words from other languages that are not cognates?

The links you provided are from blogs and can't be used in this debate.

Katsumoto:

1. You called Ifa a religion and I was only using your nomenclature when I referred to Ifa as a religion. So you are only correcting yourself. Lets try to be consistent and not try to appear more knowledgeable in debate.

2. Who will be this crowned king? That there is the first problem you will create. This problem in itself will recreate Kiriji and will kill the Odua nation. If the kings of old could not eliminate one another through war and conquest, what right would any of them have to lay claim as the supreme leader? Trying to impose one religion will also create problems. In my view, Yoruba sons and daughters should only be educated about Ifa corpus through to Secondary school. Everyone should practice what works for them. What should bind Yoruba should be a socio-cultural bond.

Yes, ive always regarded Ifa as a spirituality and wasnt even aware I spoke wrong when i called it a world religion. Thanks for pointing that out.

I hope everyone participating here can see your call for wisdom in contributions, we all need to live by that code. Im not a fan of intellectual debates, i love intellectual sharing. Forgive me if my response appeared argumentative or confronting.

We have come a long way since invasion by foreign ideologies and like I said earlier Yoruba kings now answer to a headman. Is that structure good for our future? I dont know!

The Western model of democracy work for some but not for all and may not be an ideal model in an independent Yoruba considering it will be in conflict with Yoruba indigenous model of democracy. We can have a hybrid where the politicians run the affairs of government but the Kings pilot the culture. Ifa will be the official faith belief of the Nation but everyone is free to practice what they want.

Katsumoto:

No where in my post did I suggest that Arigato and Obrigado are cognates.

Fair enough. I may have misunderstood you. You did say

Portuguese has many words that are borrowed from Japanese. Someone using your approach will conclude that Portuguese and Japanese are cognates. Obrigado for instance was derived from Arigato

My point is that obrigado was not derived from arigato or vice versa. Here is a good summation of the argument:

4.1. Is arigatou (arigato) related to Portuguese "obrigado"?

No. Arigatou (ありがとう), the Japanese for "thank you", comes from arigatai (有難い), a conjunction of the verb aru, "to have", with the ending gatai (難い) which means "difficult". The "ou" ending comes from the conjunction of the adjectival arigataku with the polite verb gozaimasu (originally from gozaru).

Other common examples of this type of conjugation include omedetō gozaimasu (congratulations) from medetaku and ohayō gozaimasu (good morning) from hayaku. The word arigatai existed in Japanese long before the Japanese ever encountered Portuguese. It can be found in some of the earliest Japanese literature such as the manyōshū (See 1.3.10. What is man'yōgana?). Similarly, "obrigado" in Portuguese comes from Latin "obligare". The change from l to r is typical of Latin-derived Portuguese words.

(See also 4.2. Which Japanese words come from Portuguese?)

From: http://www.sljfaq.org/afaq/arigatou.html

The fact is that Portuguese has words in it that were borrowed from Japan when Portuguese Jesuit priests went to Japan.

I don't dispute that. There are certainly other Japanese words borrowed from Portuguese--I think "tempura" is a frequently-cited example. "Ketchup" is a well-known example of a word borrowed from Chinese to English. These are fairly common situations when two cultures come into contact, particularly when the word describes something new to the other language. "Okra" came from West African languages into English in the same way. However, that does not account for the similarity between arigato and obrigado. Arigato and Obrigado have distinct roots in Latin and Japanese, even though they sound alike and mean the same things, which is why I called them false cognates.

The links you provided are from blogs and can't be used in this debate.

Point accepted. I don't think we should rely on blogs and Internet speculation to prove our points. If you direct me to your academic source for the relationship between "obrigado" and "arigato", I'll do the same for my understanding.

TerraCotta:

Kats--I agree with the sentiment of your post but I don't think there's any evidence that Japanese needed to borrow a term of thanks from Portuguese (or vice verse). In fact, there's every reason to believe that they are false cognates--two words that have very similar meanings in different languages and are assumed to have the same origin. More here.

The obrigado/arigato issue is an example of the sorts of fanciful etymologies and guesswork-turned-rumor-turned-fact that can cause confusion about history and plagues this thread. I once gave the example of the Latin word "ubi" and the Ife-Ijesha dialect "ubi" (standard Yoruba "ibi", all roughly meaning "somewhere", "a place" etc) here on Nairaland as an example of false cognates. Since then though, I've seen some misguided people use it as "proof" of the relationship between Latin and Yoruba.

Similarly, we have a Yoruba word like "Oduduwa" with primordial Yoruba translations and attachments to other religious terms like "odu" and "olodumare", but we are asked to believe that it is the name of a foreign warrior in an unknown language, a "corruption" of a Bini phrase ("Imadoduwa" ) etc. These are highly unlikely roots.

Shymexx--

In order to indulge this idea, I'd like to ask a few questions. If we are to accept that Egyptians were the founding figures in Ife, where are the hallmarks of Egyptian classical civilization in West Africa? Why are there no pyramids, hieroglyphs, hieratic writing, mummification, Egyptian regalia and so on? Conversely, why does Yoruba culture in general and Ife art in particular venerate the head in such specific detail, making them one-third of the full size of their sculptures? What is the Egyptian equivalent to "ori inu" or the Ogboni handshake? Where are the orikis in Egyptian culture and where is there a record of Ifa divination with opon and iroke? Why are the Yoruba deities quite geographically specific--the Rivers Niger and Osun, the hills of Ibadan, Ire-Ekiti and so on--with no reference to the Nile, the Tigris or the Euphrates? These are specifically Yoruba details with no known parallels to these supposedly ancenstral cultures. Why is that? If Egyptians had some sort of formative influence on the culture of Ife, they seem to have left remarkably little evidence of their presence. On the other hand, there is quite a lot of proof and a logical reason to believe that Yoruba culture developed relatively close to the areas in which it is currently practiced.

How do we all know that Yoruba didn't start in Ife, by the way? I'm just wondering about the source of your specific belief.

While you are waiting for response from targets, wanted to share on something very important. I learnt this long ago in my probe for sound names.

In a response sometime ago to tpia, you said River Niger is called Oya in Yorubaland, which is true. River Niger, for perharps, 100yrs now is recorded on maps as "Niger". If we follow the river in its length across the diverse lands and ask for local names we will come up with different names for it..but in our linguafranca we all call it Niger. This resulted from political colonization.

The Congo flows across many lands and tongues and im sure "Congo" is its linguafranca.

Could "Nile" be a linguafranca name as well, and perharps each land on its banks call it a different name?

If that be true, what names was the Nile called in its past? Does one of that exist in Yoruba deity worship?

I didn't mean to hobnose into issues raised for others but thought that might be helpful.

shymexx:
In recent years, the idea that Abraham's story is merely a folkore has gained support. Even Apostle Paul also describe the story as a folklore in the Bible.

where in the bible did Paul make this assertion?

Katsumoto:

I like your response but I have one disagreement - the allusion that there can't be evil or something bad in Yoruba. Even Yoruba spirituality states that good and evil exist for the common good of the universe. Hence the saying say "Buburu ati fere ni o nrin po" ("Bad and good things work together".

Hard to disagree with you here. My example was to point out will vs ancestry, but yeah, it could be taken too far.

Also, I don't subscribe to the notion that some can be more/less Yoruba than others. You either are a Yoruba or you are not. But you can be a good or bad Yoruba. Yoruba history is littered with examples of good and bad Yoruba sons and daughter. Plus you can be both good and bad, just depends on whose point of view.

As soon as we codify standards for being Yoruba (or any ethnicity), the notion of some people being less than others always floats around to one degree or another. I think this almost caste-like thinking is strongest whenever parental origin is the only way to become the member of an ethnic group. I dont support it, but I think your option 1 tends to attract a certain type of "patriot" who might consider option 2 inferior for example

@TeraCotta, good morning and to all also. Just want to chip in the notion that Yoruba history is a continuum of the Palestinian-Judaical of old. The Yoruba invoke the 'essence' and 'appearances of this culture that we do love to take for granted as fallacy. A precept of ifa is named 'Oyeku Gasa', which border on 'Odu, eleyinju ege' combines two great possibilities: (1) a female Oduduwa is in the offing; (2) a place name is invoked. The question is, isn't Gasa the same as Gaza? Then is the obstacle to possibilities of Yoruba migration ideological, topographical or maintainance of pride of place? Oyeku is of the same historical projection or critical value as Moremi (keep this idea somewhere for me that the equivalent female Oduduwa in Ife is Moremi, but we now have the politico male version). Some piece of our history is amalgamation of the event that happened elsewhere brought to Africa. If the barrier is ideological, it can be understood. What is 'GASA' in Yoruba, if I don't subscribe to foreign meaning?

MetaPhysical: Shalom Shymexx,

Eweso Omo Alare

Thanks for chipping in, I like both of your responses, very insightful.

I dont hold grudges, I still respect 9jacrips view, even though it is diverse from my affirmation on origin.

There are many angles to the origin story and Katsumoto attempted to clarify it but I think he went overboard, in my view. He said the tradition of origin is comprehensive and founded on good authority, which is accurate.

Everyone agrees Ifa is the spirit of Yoruba nativity. Ifa text is hermeneutics and its language is far more ancient than the interactive spoken language we use in social communication.

The interpretation and meaning of the creation myth and the roles played by the principal deities and heroes is lost on us. The first written record of it in modern language occurred in 1921 and is narrated in a publication titled the Myths of Ife..dictated by Araba Ifa.

In addition to the many correspondences in ancient Yoruba and ancient Hebrew, there are as well rites, articles, customs, creeds and so on in which one finds mirrored copy between the two cultures.

The Yoruba apex philosophical mantra is "omoluabi". In Yoruba custom omoluabi is incomplete without respect and adulation to elders. This is performed physically by prostrating or kneeling.

Which other culture in the world pays homage in these acts?

These are my quests. Im not concerned about whether Yoruba is muslim or not or whether its root is in mecca or not. My probe has legs and it repeatedly walked me to AfroAsia in each of the lead i followed.

The sounds I reproduced, i dont think people are un impressed to learn that Forgive and Foriji are cognates or that Peter and Apata are correspondents.

Why do we, or I should say "I",..why do "I" need credentials in Western academics to investigate and understand the passions and inquisitions in my spirit? What is degree or specialty in language going to add to my natural gift for sound and art?

Does a carver need a degree? Yet he produces work that everybody adores.

The artists that produced Ife Bronze heads, were they credentialed?

Is Picasso or Michelangelo credentialed?

Specialties have their use and value to society, it does not interfere or required in my sphere of interests.

I'm sorry I missed this post yesterday. I was a little bit busy with other things.

Well said, Sir. You kind me of remind me of Chief Dudu_Negro.

Anyway, we can all agree to disagree. However, the most important thing is that, we can't be rigid. We need to keep dropping different hypothesis and researching the plausibility. That's the only way we can connect the dots since the written records we've right now started from the 17/18th century.

The scholarship has to continue. If Cheikh Anta Diop didn't start the crusade based on his own hypothesis, which were later proven to be right based on scientific methods. I don't think we would be talking about the Nile Valley as being part of black Africa today - and the origin of most of the African ethnic groups. The research has to continue.

birdman:
I'm not negating ancestry in any way, just that we cannot use it as an end-all-be-all litmus test. I could compare you and Adebolajo (the beheader) for example. Both of you are British Nigerians, but Adebolajo grew up in Nigeria, even went to secondary school there. By your argument, I could state that Adebolajo has a deeper expression of his "inborn" Yorubaness than you do with his cultural exposure. And yet, here you are, contributing to threads on Yoruba history, while the guy who is supposedly more "inborn" is beheading an innocent man with no remorse.

This is the danger of giving ancestry more weight than it is due. Dont get me wrong, having a Yoruba mother/father has its inherent weight, but using this to assume Yorubaness is like thinking every black person you meet in yankee or jand is automatically on your side.

Btw when you start talking about inborn, identity, consciousness, you should tread lightly. You had no conscious decision as to what you would be born into. Reminds me of the white supremacist who wanted to build an all-white town. He does a DNA test on a talk show, and finds out he is 14% black. Even though he tried to rubbish it, his fellow supremacists turned on him (this guy reminds me of pagan nja btw )

http://www.latimes.com/nation/nationnow/la-na-nn-white-supremacist-dna-20131112,0,7467682.story
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/11/21/white-supremacist-dna-test-neo-nazi-north-dakota-town/3661791/

I somewhat agree with your POV. However, I don't think it would be right to judge an individual from the outside, based on his/her actions. I don't Michael Adebolajo personally, however, if you think he isn't Yoruba based on what he did. I'm sure a lot of Britons would say he isn't British as well because what he did isn't quintessentially a British thing. So who is he? My point is that whatever he did was as a result of brain-washing and not based on who he's nor his environment. Brain-washing is like sedative, it's hypnotic and it makes you lose the sense of who you're. I can also say, Adebolajo did embrace his African ancestry while he was committing the act when he said, "They're going to our continent and country, and killing our people." Obviously, the brain-washing turned him into a beast but he still knows where he's from.

Also, I might be wrong, but I believe most Yoruba kids from outside Nigeria might be more Yoruba than a lot of Yoruba kids born in Nigeria. That's why we need to be careful when making comparisons. Those of us raised outside Nigeria were raised on the proper traditional Yoruba etiquettes and we don't glamourise anything Western because we were also raised around it. However, the reverse is the case with kids raised in today's Nigeria. Hence why we tend to embrace Afrocentricism more passionately than people from other side. I can also cit an example. For example: when you meet Yoruba girls born and raised in the UK - they're more traditional and somewhat hard to crack. The only exception are probably Yoruba girls who grew up around too many Caribbeans. But, when you meet girls from the other Nigerian ethnic groups or other African countries - you can tell they were raised differently. That's the inborn consciousness I was alluding to. Consciousness is awareness and thought process.

Anyway, we don't need to create a divide. I believe we should let people define who they're by themselves.

MetaPhysical:
1. Yoruba past has many branches of knowledge that unless its going to be a total and all around submission, an encyclopedia of Yoruba in Humanities, then history alone cannot explain Yoruba roots and origin. Neither is it possible that language or geography or myth, taken individually, can explain where we originated.
Yoruba is greater than any one individual academic discipline trying to contain and explain it in a book.

2. It is said.."In the mid 1800s British Navy was unarguably the best marine and sea warriors".
The world's best sea warriors were defeated multiple times by Yoruba sea warriors. How many Yorubas know this?

When the English warriors got the final victory, the instance in each case was decided by acts of accidents not directly related to man to man combat, and well into the expiration of their human spirit and endurance and their last hope only held together by the emotions of humiliation.

Where are our historians to research and write on this history? In fact, the research might raise questions on the background of Ijebu's marine skills and its root.

3. Oral history is relevant, humanity is never going to do away with oral tradition. In the age of written communication, oral records are unpopular but that does not make them irrelevant. Writing is flat ..one dimensional. Oratory is robust and multi dimensional.

4. Yoruba is made up of the following:

Priesthood -
Kingship -
Occult -
Community -
Language -
Worship -
Customs -

Each is a tradition brought from specific place between Hamitic, Semitic and Kushitic. For example, Yoruba priesthood is Hamitic and can be said to originate from Egypt; the Kingship is also Hamitic and from Assyria/Babylonia. Using the placement we begin to see the diversity in Yoruba and its footprint distribution on the map.

I don't have anything against oral history, however, I believe in this age - we can't really rely on oral history. We need something in ink that's well documented.

Also, we need to get all these branches of Yoruba knowledge together - to form a single unit and reduce the complexity. That would go a long way in educating future generations on what it's to be Yoruba.

740megawatts:

Linguistics is a clue to our past, it could explain the various contacts our ancestors have had in the time past. It could also give us clues on ancient Yoruba interactions in the areas of trade and commerce, religion, arts and culture. We cannot completely ignore the effects of our language, no matter how minimal it is. With regards to the linguistics comparison, I believe what we shall mainly get to see may be word fragments here and there. For now, I cannot possibly to come to a conclusion on that venture!

I agree. However, I believe we can't really use linguistics to decipher who we're or a primary tool to determine origin since language evolves overtime. And also people do lose their language. Even the Yoruba language today isn't the same as the ancient one. There are also a lot of bantu speaking ethnic groups out there who aren't bantu's. So we need to thread carefully when trying to use linguistics to study origin.

Shymexx,

I read both responses. When we are seeking to gain knowledge on special fields we head to the library. Why the library? Because we can get different views shared by different scholars and moreover, acquire new references and value added knowledge presented through lateral branches of that field.

Yoruba arts is a library! None of the various positions presented here is new to my eyes, Ive read various publications on the Ife dynasties and Oduduwa and Obatala and Obalufon, as well Moremi. Everything in Yoruba art separates it from its sub-saharan sister kingdoms. In other words, you cannot find in any other sub-saharan arts such finesse and excellence in craftsmanship. When you look at the gods and their pantheon, in relationship to terrestrial and celestial hierarchies, you don't find any other sub-saharan people that has 401 gods that "ascend" and "descend" the realms of heaven and earth. If we cant find it in sub-sahara, then..is it even possible it exists anywhere else? Yes it does exist somewhere else! Well, where? In AfroAsia!

I dont know if Yorubas started Ile Ife, or if they started in Nineveh..but I do know tons of cultural arts connect the two. Im engaged at moment inspecting AfroAsia. It is possible I will end my journey back in Ife..who knows? So, im not rigid on the subject, not at all, Im open minded.

I want to ask you to read Suzanne Blier's Art in Ancient Ife, Birthplace of Yoruba. If you read online be sure you get the pdf copy. Im making this exception only because you are my Ijebu brother..ordinarily I dont recommend books.

Ewe so o

birdman:

where in the bible did Paul make this assertion?

Sorry for the late reply. It's xmas season and I've been busy.

Anyway, it's here in Galatians 4:21-31 (KJV):

21 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?

22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.

23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.

24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.

25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.

28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.

29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.

31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

TerraCotta:
Shymexx--

In order to indulge this idea, I'd like to ask a few questions. If we are to accept that Egyptians were the founding figures in Ife, where are the hallmarks of Egyptian classical civilization in West Africa? Why are there no pyramids, hieroglyphs, hieratic writing, mummification, Egyptian regalia and so on? Conversely, why does Yoruba culture in general and Ife art in particular venerate the head in such specific detail, making them one-third of the full size of their sculptures? What is the Egyptian equivalent to "ori inu" or the Ogboni handshake? Where are the orikis in Egyptian culture and where is there a record of Ifa divination with opon and iroke? Why are the Yoruba deities quite geographically specific--the Rivers Niger and Osun, the hills of Ibadan, Ire-Ekiti and so on--with no reference to the Nile, the Tigris or the Euphrates? These are specifically Yoruba details with no known parallels to these supposedly ancenstral cultures. Why is that? If Egyptians had some sort of formative influence on the culture of Ife, they seem to have left remarkably little evidence of their presence. On the other hand, there is quite a lot of proof and a logical reason to believe that Yoruba culture developed relatively close to the areas in which it is currently practiced.

How do we all know that Yoruba didn't start in Ife, by the way? I'm just wondering about the source of your specific belief.

If you can study the migration patterns and settlements in Africa during prehistoric times, you would found out that most of west Africa was uninhabited except probably the Guinea basin and Cameroun/Calabar axis, where the Bantu migration started from, which is more of central Africa. So if most historians believe west Africa was unoccupied, till the beginning of the common era - then the people must have either come from somewhere else, or a new specie of people emanated from there.

Anyway, everything you cited about ancient Egypt happened during different dynasties, and to be able to compare and contrast - we need to know the timeline of when the first settlers got to Ife. And the Egyptian dynasty of that period. Also, everything developed in Egypt was done based on the location and the raw materials available there. For example, there are Pyramids in Egypt and Nubia(Kush), however, there's non in Aksum.

All in all, I can't really make comparisons between the two civilisations because my knowledge of Yoruba history is limited. But locations always affect how civilisations are built.

Finally, the hypothesis that Yoruba's migrated from present-day Afroasia (or what I would classify as NE Africa land of Palestine separated from Africa by the artificial Suez Canal) isn't mine. I just find it interesting since I believe the original Canaanites were black/negroes - and they the migration pattern suggests that they migrated back into the proper Africa. I might have to go into my archives to cite what Diodorus and Herodotus said about those who occupied the land between present day Egypt and Syria-Palestine in ancient times.

MetaPhysical: Shymexx,

I read both responses. When we are seeking to gain knowledge on special fields we head to the library. Why the library? Because we can get different views shared by different scholars and moreover, acquire new references and value added knowledge presented through lateral branches of that field.

Yoruba arts is a library! None of the various positions presented here is new to my eyes, Ive read various publications on the Ife dynasties and Oduduwa and Obatala and Obalufon, as well Moremi. Everything in Yoruba art separates it from its sub-saharan sister kingdoms. In other words, you cannot find in any other sub-saharan arts such finesse and excellence in craftsmanship. When you look at the gods and their pantheon, in relationship to terrestrial and celestial hierarchies, you don't find any other sub-saharan people that has 401 gods that "ascend" and "descend" the realms of heaven and earth. If we cant find it in sub-sahara, then..is it even possible it exists anywhere else? Yes it does exist somewhere else! Well, where? In AfroAsia!

I dont know if Yorubas started Ile Ife, or if they started in Nineveh..but I do know tons of cultural arts connect the two. Im engaged at moment inspecting AfroAsia. It is possible I will end my journey back in Ife..who knows? So, im not rigid on the subject, not at all, Im open minded.

I want to ask you to read Suzanne Blier's Art in Ancient Ife, Birthplace of Yoruba. If you read online be sure you get the pdf copy. Im making this exception only because you are my Ijebu brother..ordinarily I dont recommend books.

Ewe so o

401 gods? I never knew the Yoruba's had that many gods. That's shocking and interesting. I definitely need to do more scholarship and reading about Yoruba history and spirituality. I'm still scratching the surface at the moment.

However, I might decide to play a blinder here and suggest that we should also look at the ancient Colchians - since the great Greek historian asserted that: "The Colchians, Egyptians and Ethiopians are the only nations that have from the first practised circumcision." It might sound funny and implausible but since the ancient Colchians were believed to have lived around the Black Sea, in present day Georgia - and they were also negroes. Who knows, we might come up with something interesting. If the Afrikaans could migrate all the way from Europe to today's South Africa - anything is possible. We just need to keep exploring different links.


The Nok proto-Yoruba theory is also interesting. If that link can be proven to be historically accurate. Then we all must accept that Yoruba tradition/culture evolved through different stages before it got to Ife and into what we've got today. And that should open up outlets for other theories that might want to trace Yoruba origin further to where it all started from.

I'll get the book. Thanks, Sir.

Proudly Yoruba!

Shalom!

shymexx:

Sorry for the late reply. It's xmas season and I've been busy.

Anyway, it's here in Galatians 4:21-31 (KJV):

21 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?

22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.

23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.

24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.

25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.

28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.

29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.

31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

So then Paul is trying to say Arabs are in bondage while Jews are Freeborns

shymexx:

401 gods? I never knew the Yoruba's had that many gods. That's shocking and interesting. I definitely need to do more scholarship and reading about Yoruba history and spirituality. I'm still scratching the surface at the moment.

However, I might decide to play a blinder here and suggest that we should also look at the ancient Colchians - since the great Greek historian asserted that: "The Colchians, Egyptians and Ethiopians are the only nations that have from the first practised circumcision." It might sound funny and implausible but since the ancient Colchians were believed to have lived around the Black Sea, in present day Georgia - and they were also negroes. Who knows, we might come up with something interesting. If the Afrikaans could migrate all the way from Europe to today's South Africa - anything is possible. We just need to keep exploring different links.


The Nok proto-Yoruba theory is also interesting. If that link can be proven to be historically accurate. Then we all must accept that Yoruba tradition/culture evolved through different stages before it got to Ife and into what we've got today. And that should open up outlets for other theories that might want to trace Yoruba origin further to where it all started from.

I'll get the book. Thanks, Sir.

Proudly Yoruba!

Shalom!

Whatsup with this Shalom thing, are you a Rabbi now?

On the subject of Yoruba, Oduduwa, Lamurudu, Oranmiyan and all the heroes and legends, there has been tremendous output here in Nairaland. I have learnt a lot directly and indirectly from the many archived discussions. We are not blessed to have a vertically structured heirarchy for the various topics and so we run into mix ups and end up rubbing one another the wrong way because our understanding clashes.

I laughed at your shocked response to the 401 gods. I want to share a personal experience but before that I want to clarify that what I called gods should be viewed more as divinities - the divinities of heaven and earth. In Yoruba we call them Orunmila (heaven) and Irumole (earth). These are cosmic forces. Then in the individual being there are also divinities and the most reverred of this is what Yoruba call "Ori".

There are evenly divided number of divinities between heaven and earth, two hundred each, sothey total four hundred. The odd one that adds to make four hundred and one is the infinite source..the head Orisha that we fondly call Baba Orunmila.

Read the following Ifa script and compare with what both the Bible, Talmud and Quran say about the command of God to the Angels to name the newly created animals and at which none knew their names, but when He asked Adam to name them he promptly gave each animal its name. At that point they all paid homage to Adam, except Satan. How come this metaphor in Abrahamaic faiths is also found in Ifa manuscript? In extension, notice the last statement in the act of prostration and touching the head to the ground, a common ritual of head worship observed in Yoruba culture and the Abrhamaic faiths.


However taken from Ifa Sacred Poems was a story about "Ori" (head) the king of the body. Ori (head) was the only divinity that broke the kola nuts that Orunmila kept at his shrine. Ori's wish was for a permanent abode (home) and plenty of followers. Upon hearing the news of the finally broken Kola-nuts, all the other divinities agreed, (since they all tried to break the nuts) that the "Head" was the right divinity to the Kola-nuts. Almost immediately the hand, feet, body, stomach, chest, neck etc, each of which before then had distinct identities, all assembled and decided to go and live with the Head. Together, they all carried the Head high above as the king of the body. It is on account of the role-played by Orunmila in his fortune that the head touches the ground to defer and revere to Orunmila to this day.


On Nok, it is an Aksumite culture. If we put a map of Africa on the wall and for each culture where we find a connection for Yoruba customs we denote it with a colored marker you will discover that Yoruba in SW Nigeria is a dump or aggregation of dotted Yoruba and proto Yoruba groups who in their ancient roots were dispersed variously across AfroAsia...from Aksum to Yemen to Sudan, to Egypt, Canaan and Assyria.

Cush birthed Egypt but Canaan birthed Babylon. Yoruba came out of these civilizations, which was also instrumental in teaching Greek what it knew of science, arts and occult.

This would explain the many correspondences in Yoruba words and those of tongues raised from Greek/Roman letters. It would also explain why the Ife bronze heads have correspondence in Roman bronze arts. One civilization instructed both. Greece and Rome is closer geographically to the seats of those civilizations than Yoruba of SW Nigeria is. So how did Yoruba get these knowledge?

My theory is Yoruba was physically internal and a commonwealth part of that civilization and later migrated from it to present location.

Other theory is that Yoruba had no commonality to these civilizations and what we observe in language and arts is a common phenomena broadly distributed among human cultures. That is challenging for me to accept, unless we can equally come up with similar quality arts and language and God-belief that we find in Yoruba in places like Nupe, Ibo, Igalla, Ijaw, Congo tribes, Kenya tribes, Uganda and other sub saharan cultures, which would then make the Yoruba case a non-unique situation.

I dont want to talk too much but I didnt forget to share experience but some other time maybe.

Shalom Rabbi Shymexx..

shymexx:

Sorry for the late reply. It's xmas season and I've been busy.

Anyway, it's here in Galatians 4:21-31 (KJV):

21 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?

22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.

23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.

24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.

25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.

28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.

29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.

31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

Ah, I see. Paul is using the free born and the born slave as an allegory for being under Christ vs being under the law. If you read the chapter in context, he isnt saying the story of Abraham is false. Otherwise Abraham wouldnt be named in Gal 3:29, a book which Paul wrote too.

Take a look at the NIV:

24 These things are being taken figuratively: The women represent two covenants. One covenant is from Mount Sinai and bears children who are to be slaves: This is Hagar.

And IMO, one of the more meaningful translations, Darby

24 Which things have an allegorical sense; for these are two covenants: one from mount Sinai, gendering to bondage, which is Hagar.

Its pretty obvious he is using Sarah/Hagar offsprings to figuratively represent offspring of Christ, and of the law.

Shalom

shymexx:

If you can study the migration patterns and settlements in Africa during prehistoric times, you would found out that most of west Africa was uninhabited except probably the Guinea basin and Cameroun/Calabar axis, where the Bantu migration started from, which is more of central Africa. So if most historians believe west Africa was unoccupied, till the beginning of the common era - then the people must have either come from somewhere else, or a new specie of people emanated from there.

Hi Shymexx. Sorry about the long break in responses but I had an issue with the spambot. You seem like you have a sincere interest in the topic so I think you might enjoy reading a little more widely about prehistoric West Africa. Apart from the fossils found in caves around Iwo Eleru dating to about 9000 BC, there is lots of evidence of productive populations in central Nigeria by about 800 BC. Who are the historians who believe that West Africa was unoccupied and which time period are you referring to? If you're discussing prehistoric eras, then archaeologists would be the right source of information and they don't agree with the notion that West Africa was unoccupied. Roderick and Susan McIntosh are anthropologists who are reliable sources on how West Africa was populated and how important skills like metalsmithing and agriculture developed: http://anthropology.rice.edu/research.html

Anyway, everything you cited about ancient Egypt happened during different dynasties, and to be able to compare and contrast - we need to know the timeline of when the first settlers got to Ife.

I completely agree, which is why I find it difficult to see any proof of a link between Egypt and Ife. Their material culture and religious beliefs appear to be fairly different, we don't have written or linguistic evidence that they're directly related--so where does the hypothesis come from? Have you read about the Hamitic Hypothesis?

And the Egyptian dynasty of that period. Also, everything developed in Egypt was done based on the location and the raw materials available there. For example, there are Pyramids in Egypt and Nubia(Kush), however, there's non in Aksum.

Perhaps that's because Aksum was a unique culture and separate from Egypt and Nubia (Kush), much like Ife. Aksum had it's own alphabet and language in Ge'ez (not heiroglyphs), a completely distinct religion from Egypt and Kush (which also had some unique religious figures from Egypt), and a completely separate economic system (not derived from the Nile but focused on Ethiopian agriculture and trade with Saudi Arabia). Even these neighboring and related cultures like Egypt, Kush, Meroe and Aksum were obviously quite different, so again--why would we think that Ife and related Yoruba cultures must have been derived from Egypt? Aksum, despite being nearby and probably related, is a separate culture so we can't lump all of these groups together.

Finally, the hypothesis that Yoruba's migrated from present-day Afroasia (or what I would classify as NE Africa land of Palestine separated from Africa by the artificial Suez Canal) isn't mine. I just find it interesting since I believe the original Canaanites were black/negroes - and they the migration pattern suggests that they migrated back into the proper Africa. I might have to go into my archives to cite what Diodorus and Herodotus said about those who occupied the land between present day Egypt and Syria-Palestine in ancient times.

Whatever complexion the original Canaanites were, it's highly unlikely that they migrated to present-day Nigeria in any significant number when there is no trace of their cultural influence--no architecture, no linguistic evidence, no religious influence and so on. The achievements and originality of Ife and related cultures are belittled when we constantly look for "influences" and "ancestors" in these other great classical cultures. If you really are interested in Yoruba culture, wouldn't it be more productive to start off by learning all you can about it before reading about other groups to see if they may have had an influence? You can't learn about Egypt by reading about Punt, for instance--you have to focus on Egypt first before looking for their ancestors. I think the same approach makes sense when it comes to Ife etc.

At this point, it's clear that many of the other posters in this discussion are trolls who have nothing better to do so I'll have to withdraw. I've referenced Suzanne Preston Blier's work on Ife here many times (and I see that the references are finally being picked up) and I think it's a very good introduction to recent research. She's an art historian though; her focus is more aesthetic than an archaeologist or a historian would be.

Archaeologists like Akin Ogundiran and historians like Robin Law would also be very helpful supplements. There aren't any shortcuts to this material, unfortunately; it's dense stuff but very interesting and absolutely crucial if learning about Ife/Yoruba culture is your goal.

^^^^^^^ Terracotta, GOD Bless you.
It seems you and I are on the same page as far as theorizing/the school of thought on Yoruba/Ife history goes.
I especially love your final paragraph.
God bless!

Like my brother Shymexx would say - 'Shalom!'

TerraCotta:

Hi Shymexx. Sorry about the long break in responses but I had an issue with the spambot. You seem like you have a sincere interest in the topic so I think you might enjoy reading a little more widely about prehistoric West Africa. Apart from the fossils found in caves around Iwo Eleru dating to about 9000 BC, there is lots of evidence of productive populations in central Nigeria by about 800 BC. Who are the historians who believe that West Africa was unoccupied and which time period are you referring to? If you're discussing prehistoric eras, then archaeologists would be the right source of information and they don't agree with the notion that West Africa was unoccupied. Roderick and Susan McIntosh are anthropologists who are reliable sources on how West Africa was populated and how important skills like metalsmithing and agriculture developed: http://anthropology.rice.edu/research.html



I completely agree, which is why I find it difficult to see any proof of a link between Egypt and Ife. Their material culture and religious beliefs appear to be fairly different, we don't have written or linguistic evidence that they're directly related--so where does the hypothesis come from? Have you read about the Hamitic Hypothesis?



Perhaps that's because Aksum was a unique culture and separate from Egypt and Nubia (Kush), much like Ife. Aksum had it's own alphabet and language in Ge'ez (not heiroglyphs), a completely distinct religion from Egypt and Kush (which also had some unique religious figures from Egypt), and a completely separate economic system (not derived from the Nile but focused on Ethiopian agriculture and trade with Saudi Arabia). Even these neighboring and related cultures like Egypt, Kush, Meroe and Aksum were obviously quite different, so again--why would we think that Ife and related Yoruba cultures must have been derived from Egypt? Aksum, despite being nearby and probably related, is a separate culture so we can't lump all of these groups together.



Whatever complexion the original Canaanites were, it's highly unlikely that they migrated to present-day Nigeria in any significant number when there is no trace of their cultural influence--no architecture, no linguistic evidence, no religious influence and so on. The achievements and originality of Ife and related cultures are belittled when we constantly look for "influences" and "ancestors" in these other great classical cultures. If you really are interested in Yoruba culture, wouldn't it be more productive to start off by learning all you can about it before reading about other groups to see if they may have had an influence? You can't learn about Egypt by reading about Punt, for instance--you have to focus on Egypt first before looking for their ancestors. I think the same approach makes sense when it comes to Ife etc.

At this point, it's clear that many of the other posters in this discussion are trolls who have nothing better to do so I'll have to withdraw. I've referenced Suzanne Preston Blier's work on Ife here many times (and I see that the references are finally being picked up) and I think it's a very good introduction to recent research. She's an art historian though; her focus is more aesthetic than an archaeologist or a historian would be.

Archaeologists like Akin Ogundiran and historians like Robin Law would also be very helpful supplements. There aren't any shortcuts to this material, unfortunately; it's dense stuff but very interesting and absolutely crucial if learning about Ife/Yoruba culture is your goal.

You really take ur time to study the Ife history.

I like this post.
Over the years I have come across all kinds of acclaimed origin of the Ife people but they all make me sick because it's based on assumptions and sentiments with little or no evidence.

I also want to resolve this issue but for some reason I believe it's impossible to get the true origin(if any) of Ife people.

More study is needed but this cannot be achieved in this Nigerian environment

9jacrip: ^^^^^^^ Terracotta, GOD Bless you.
It seems you and I are on the same page as far as theorizing/the school of thought on Yoruba/Ife history goes.
I especially love your final paragraph.
God bless!

Like my brother Shymexx would say - 'Shalom!'

I believe the Yoruba migrated to SW Nigeria but I, also, do not buy into these various hypothesis of the Yoruba being an off-shoot of other ancient civilizations for two reasons

1. There is no evidence to prove such relationships. And I don't like the associated guesswork

2. Ife did not need to be related to another civilization for it to be great. And no civilization does anyway.

Ancient Ife was great simply because of the people who were present there.

Katsumoto:

I believe the Yoruba migrated to SW Nigeria but I, also, do not buy into these various hypothesis of the Yoruba being an off-shoot of other ancient civilizations for two reasons

1. There is no evidence to prove such relationships. And I don't like the associated guesswork

2. Ife did not need to be related to another civilization for it to be great. And no civilization does anyway.

Ancient Ife was great simply because of the people who were present there.

Mr Katsumoto, I give you Mr Modupe Oduyoye,

Yoruba,
Historian,
Linguist,
Theologian,
Scholar on Yoruba, Semitic languages.

If this man does not know what he is talking about, then nobody does. Read his publications. Good luck!

http://www.karnakhouse.co.uk/authors/mudope.html

The following is just to whet appetite and make you really want to get a copy.

TerraCotta:
Hi Shymexx. Sorry about the long break in responses but I had an issue with the spambot. You seem like you have a sincere interest in the topic so I think you might enjoy reading a little more widely about prehistoric West Africa. Apart from the fossils found in caves around Iwo Eleru dating to about 9000 BC, there is lots of evidence of productive populations in central Nigeria by about 800 BC. Who are the historians who believe that West Africa was unoccupied and which time period are you referring to? If you're discussing prehistoric eras, then archaeologists would be the right source of information and they don't agree with the notion that West Africa was unoccupied. Roderick and Susan McIntosh are anthropologists who are reliable sources on how West Africa was populated and how important skills like metalsmithing and agriculture developed: http://anthropology.rice.edu/research.html


I completely agree, which is why I find it difficult to see any proof of a link between Egypt and Ife. Their material culture and religious beliefs appear to be fairly different, we don't have written or linguistic evidence that they're directly related--so where does the hypothesis come from? Have you read about the Hamitic Hypothesis?



Perhaps that's because Aksum was a unique culture and separate from Egypt and Nubia (Kush), much like Ife. Aksum had it's own alphabet and language in Ge'ez (not heiroglyphs), a completely distinct religion from Egypt and Kush (which also had some unique religious figures from Egypt), and a completely separate economic system (not derived from the Nile but focused on Ethiopian agriculture and trade with Saudi Arabia). Even these neighboring and related cultures like Egypt, Kush, Meroe and Aksum were obviously quite different, so again--why would we think that Ife and related Yoruba cultures must have been derived from Egypt? Aksum, despite being nearby and probably related, is a separate culture so we can't lump all of these groups together.



Whatever complexion the original Canaanites were, it's highly unlikely that they migrated to present-day Nigeria in any significant number when there is no trace of their cultural influence--no architecture, no linguistic evidence, no religious influence and so on. The achievements and originality of Ife and related cultures are belittled when we constantly look for "influences" and "ancestors" in these other great classical cultures. If you really are interested in Yoruba culture, wouldn't it be more productive to start off by learning all you can about it before reading about other groups to see if they may have had an influence? You can't learn about Egypt by reading about Punt, for instance--you have to focus on Egypt first before looking for their ancestors. I think the same approach makes sense when it comes to Ife etc.

At this point, it's clear that many of the other posters in this discussion are trolls who have nothing better to do so I'll have to withdraw. I've referenced Suzanne Preston Blier's work on Ife here many times (and I see that the references are finally being picked up) and I think it's a very good introduction to recent research. She's an art historian though; her focus is more aesthetic than an archaeologist or a historian would be.

Archaeologists like Akin Ogundiran and historians like Robin Law would also be very helpful supplements. There aren't any shortcuts to this material, unfortunately; it's dense stuff but very interesting and absolutely crucial if learning about Ife/Yoruba culture is your goal.

Thanks for the reply.

Interesting read. I guess I'll have to read more and come up with my own conclusions.

Thanks, anyway.

When in 1972, Modupe Oduyoye, language expert and exegete, unleashed his book “The Vocabulary of Yoruba Religious Discourse” on the public, it sent shock waves throughout the linguistic community. Exegetes are experts who undertake critical study of texts, especially the Bible.Oduyoye’s theories were bold, daring. He seemed to harbor no reverence for any hallowed folk etymology, but what his phonological tools told him. He challenged and often discredited many conventional etymological conclusions of the time.However, his arguments were difficult to fault. They were intellectually water-tight and many times air-tight.For one, they demolished once and for all, all notions that a ‘monolingual” approach is sufficient to find the root meanings (etymology) of difficult words in Yoruba – or any language for that matter.

In many of his explanations of Yoruba words, Oduyoye drew from languages from outside Yoruba.Secondly, Oduyoye demonstrated most vividly, the relationship, already acknowledged by language experts, between Semitic languages like Hebrew, Akkadian, Aramaic, Ugaritic, and many African languages like Hausa, Tiv. Efik, Yoruba, Ibibio, Igbo, Fon, Twi etc.Oduyoye’s book was actually in response to the publication in 1969 of the report of the first consultation of African theologians held in Ibadan in 1966 with the title: “Biblical Revelations and African Beliefs.”The report was subsequently recommended for the General Assembly of the All African Congress of Churches in September 1969. Oduyoye read and reviewed the publication.Contributors to the conference included eminent scholars like the late Professor Bolaji idowu; Rev. E.A.A. Adegbola and Monsignor (Ezeanya. Oduyoye wasn’t very satisfied with many of the conclusions.Now he joined the “fray” armed to the teeth.

Oduyoye had studied Hebrew at Yale in 1964, Comparative Semitic Linguistics at the Linguistics Institute of the Linguistics Society of America on a grant from the American Council of Learned Societies in 1965, Arabic at Yale from 1965 to 1966 and Middle Egyptian in London from 1969 to1970. Added to this was his intimate knowledge of the traditions of his people, the Yoruba, a considerable knowledge of many Nigerian and African languages and a passionate curiosity about words and their origins.

So Oduyoye undertook a review of the theological conference with the best tools.While the scholars who contributed papers at the conference put up commendable efforts, Oduyoye could see that they were sorely limited by their, mostly monolingual tools.Oduyoye’s tool was different. It was comparative theology at its keenest. With profuse references to linguistic authorities in Afro-Asiatic (Hamito-Semitic) languages, Oduyoye sliced through hitherto impregnable words with the cold objectivity of an intellectual guillotine.Who, for instance, would fault Oduyoye when he pointed out that Igbo “dibia” (medicine man) is cognate (has the same origin) with Arabic “tibia” (Physicnan, doctor)? Or that Yoruba ajo is cognate with Hebrew Haj and Arabic Hajj? And that “Alhaji” is cognate with Yoruba Alejo?You see, in philology, (the scientific study of the nature and growth of words and languages) consonants like k, l, s, t, etc are the tell-tale that give away the relationships between words. These consonants are to words what bones are to fossils. Though vowels (the flesh) may decay or change as words travel over time and space, the consonants (bones) remain. It is these consonants (consonantal roots) that philologists use to track words to find their meanings or genealogy.But then, some consonants are “liquid”, that is, change form from language to language.Thus, when the English word “guava” gets to Yoruba-speaking peoples, the consonant “v”, being absent Yoruba pronounciation becomes “b” or “f””. So guava becomes “goba” or “gofa”. Similarly “l” often becomes “r”, “s” becomes”sh” (e.g. among Ibadan indigenes) or “th” or even “z”.Philologists look out for these consonantal changes (liquidity) in the “detective work of tracking words.

Armed with these basic rules of comparative philology, Oduyoye tracked the irun-prefix in Yoruba Irunmale(divinities) hitherto thought to be “400” to the Arabic” word harem and Hebrew herem both of which convey the idea of “sacred” or “holy”. The r-m-consonantal roots are clear, but the “h” is missing in Yoruba, Oduyoye says, because “Yoruba nouns generally do not begin with an /h/ or any h-type sound.”From Ijebu “Lisa” (chief of first rank) to Igbo “Olise” (“God” as in Olisemeka) to “Lesa” among the Ambo of Malawi, the Barotse, the Bemba, the Kaonde, Lala, Lamba, Oduyoye, tracks the “l-s” consonantal root (which liquid forms are r-s” “l-z” “r-th” which all convey the idea of “head” “chief” first”) to Hebrew “rosh” (first) to Arabic “ras,” Aramaic “resh” and Akkadian “rishu”. And to Yoruba “Orisha”. In fact Hebrew “Harison-iym” is translated “Ancestors” in Psalm 79.8 of the Jerusalem Bibe Oduyoye says, the “-iym” being a mere plural suffix in HebrewOduyoye also laces Yoruba Religious Discourse, with interesting “linguistic gossips in the foot notes like generous crumbs of stock-fish in an already delicious Osiki soup.However, Oduyoye’s glaring success did not get into his head. He acknowledged the pioneering efforts of eminent scholars like Archdeacon Olumide Lucas (who was teacher to his father) with whom he actually corresponded while writing the book:

‘The thoughtful restudy of past scholarship is not criticism for the sake of criticism, but an attempt to elucidate the principles involved in the discovery of truth… in doing this, however, it is right that we express our gratitude and respect to those whose work is being used and restudied, and, without whose pioneering zeal and daring,the present evaluation will not have been attempted.” Oduyoye wrote, quoting yet another authority.

So when seven years later, in August 1979, the Bishop of the Anglican Diocese of Odogbolu, (now in Ogun State) the Rt. Rev. I.B.O. Akintemi, invited Oduyoye to lead a series of Bible studies at the diocese’s clergy schools, it was an opportunity to take apart Genesis 1 – 11 with the scalpel of Hamito-semitic (Afro Asiatic) philology.Puzzles usually glossed over by other interpreters came under Oduyoye’s scrutiny. “Why” Oduyoye asks, “does the Hebrew language have a world with a plural suffix (-iym) as its word for “God” when Hebrew religion is anti-polytheistic?”“Who,” Oduyoye asks “are the sons of the Gods of Genesis 6:1?”Traditional interpretation will say “angels” or “Israelites”, but Oduyoye says “no” to both.Hear Oduyoye “And thus I dug up the questions those obvious in the English version and those patent only to one who reads from the Hebrews text. The true nature of the literary corpus we were studying thus becomes clear, and the need for interpretation could not be questioned…” The result, expectedly, was extraordinary. And for the , it was fascinating, if a mite disturbing.  What would these unusual interpretation do to the faith of Christians? One of them wondered aloud.Oduyoye’s response was simple: “Christian preaching certainly needs a stronger pillar to lean upon than a basis of obscurantism.”Oduyoye himself was and remains an eminent member of the Church having served in many capacities, including being the literature secretary of the Christian Council of Nigeria.