DrummaBoy: ^Thank you Ayokun for this thread

DrummaBoy: That is why despite what the OP wrote, an alwaystrue will still come here and say the ten commandments were the laws of God not the Laws of Moses - as it should rightly be called. If it is the Law of God, why did John 1 say 'the law was given through Moses; but grace and truth came with Jesus Christ.

As it has been said here for hundreds of times, the OT did not designate the laws as Moral, ceremonial, law of God, etc. Everything in the OT is the law of Moses and has been abolished in Jesus Cross.

The only law left for the believer is the Law of Spirit of Life: the Law of Christ that calls us to love. It is of the Spirit bc with his help we would reach perfection. It is of life bc there is no condemnation for anyone under it. Its not a law of sin and death; it of LIFE, so there is no sin in it that leads to death. It is of love, bearing the Spirit's Fruit; under which there is no law.

If U cannot comprehend this, there nothing to say afterwards.

Alwaystrue: @Ayoku777,
Beautifully worded. Thanks and weldone. I love the choice of words especially where you said it is continuous...that is what we keep saying.

As you also posited, God is not indifferent to His laws, infact in my study right now I realised one thing:
The Real 10 commandments of God were given verbally HIMSELF WITH HIS OWN WORDS and directly (no Mediator) to the people of Israel in Exodus 19-20 further reminded in Deut 4-5; Deut. 18:15-19; John 12:47-49. Do read it and confirm back to me.
The other laws given through and by Moses where somewhat drawn from this though.

He came down directly upon Sinai and met with the Israelites face to face, gave this commandments but they could not bear it but begged Moses to tell God to speak to them through Moses so they do not die. Ex.20:19-20; Deut 4:36. What does this prove. The 10 commandments IS NOT THE LAW OF MOSES OR GIVEN THROUGH MOSES.....IT IS THE LAW OF GOD as it was given BY GOD ALMIGHTY HIMSELF IN HIS OWN WORDS AND WITH HIS OWN VOICE THAT ALL THE PEOPLE HEARD!

We thank God for His Son Jesus and His grace upon us making us enjoy the fulness of life in Him. It is really great to 'hang out' with the Holy Spirit as you said.

DrummaBoy: Returning to the subject of Easy Believism

1. Salvation is the sovereign work of God on a man's heart. God is able to save, to keep safe and to save to the uttermost
2. Salvation is not passive assent to some repeated words: it is understanding the grace of God, His love and Power. It is repentance and submission to Jesus Lordship.
3. When a man is saved, he is a new creation. You don't tell him this is sin: He is convicted of sin, so he knows it and has grace to keep away from sin.
4. The laws of God are inscribed on his heart. He need not anyone tell him what to do, He knows what to do.
5. Salvation is by grace through faith; it is not adherence to some do's and don'ts. It is not tithing, circumcision, going to church, fasting, prayer or reading the word.
6. Salvation is to be led of God Spirit to please him which may involve fasting, prayer and the word, as Ayoku has stated in the OP.
7. Salvation is not of works but of faith (only, according to Martin Luther).

ayoku777:
When the cloud descended on the mount of transfiguration, Moses (Law) and Elijah (prophets) vanished leaving only Jesus. And the father now said to peter 'hear ye him'. Our only obligation now is to faith in Christ and fellowship to his spirit.

ayoku777: I am a staunch believer in the gospel of infinite grace, which acknowledges that receiving and retaining your salvation, justification and the Holy Spirit has nothing to do with law or your obedience to it. Gal 3v2 '...receive ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?' Gal 2v17 '...for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.' The law does not save you nor justify you, neither does your obedience to it help you retain the salvation and justification. Righteousness is authored and finished by faith in Christ ALONE, at no point will works have a saying in helping us receive it or keep us from losing it. Rom 1v17 '...For therein is the righteousness of God revealed FROM FAITH TO FAITH'. Righteousness is received and retained BY FAITH!!

NOW, after Christ through his grace has given us salvation and righteousness and we have received it by faith, he wants us to move unto perfection! Let me say this, the dispensation of grace is not the age of God's indifference to what he hated under the law. Murder still grieves God, greed still displeases him, inhumanity and oppression still breaks his heart and he wants them to stop in the lives of those who are born of Him. For two reasons: For our profit in this age and reward in the age to come; and also for the establishment of His kingdom on earth through his church. An unreformed church can't establish God's kingdom even if they're righteous by the gift of grace. And this reformation only happens when we move unto perfection.

Need you to get this picture before I move. At righteousness you have the life of Christ, at perfection you have His lifestyle; at righteousness you receive Christ's image, at perfection you grow unto His stature; at righteousness you're justified, at perfection you're glorified; at righteousness your spirit is regenerated, at perfection your soul is reformed. Regeneration is instant and immediate by faith but reformation is a process, that is why your addictions didn't miraculously vanish after you said the sinner's prayer even though you were saved and made righteous that instant.

How then do we move unto perfection By fellowship and communion with the Spirit of God. Unlike righteousness by faith which was accomplished by believing with the heart and confessing with the mouth, perfection by fellowship will involve conscious effort on your part. You will need to invest time, focus and energy, this is not to struggle with your flaws or fight your imperfections the way it was done under the law, but rather to fellowship or 'hang out' with the Spirit, and He will now work on your imperfections and sins and shed the love of God abraod in your heart, then live out the life of Christ through you without your own attempt at struggling to do it. Perfection is what takes place when we begin to fellowship with the Spirit and increase in the knowledge and understanding of Christ, causing the Holy Spirit to work on our flaws and imperfections and live out the lifestyle of Christ through us.

So how then do we fellowship with the Spirit of God, so that he can now work-out the lifestyle of Christ through us? The three most powerful tools of fellowship with the Spirit of God that hastens his work of manifesting the power of Christ's life and the glory of the knowledge and understanding of Christ through us is: The word, prayer, and fasting. This is not the religious 'need-oriented' type done to receive something from God or to pat the back of our religious ego. But the type done just to 'hang out' with God the way Enoch did.

Any christian who will practise a lifestyle of continual fellowship with the Spirit through the Word, prayer, and fasting will soon find himself easily overcoming his temper, greed, bitterness, lust and addictions; without him consciously fighting those habits or struggling to deal with them. Then as the sinful habits are worked on by the Spirit and you continue the fellowship with Him, you will now move into increased understanding of the word of God and the manifestation of the power of God and before you know it you're like Christ in person and in power. And that will remain the case if you don't stop the fellowship trend.

This is what I mean by fellowship with the Spirit, which helps you move unto perfection and Christ likeness without the legalistic struggle with our flaws which is the approach of the law.

You are blessed

Ayoku.

Alwaystrue:
@Ayoku,
I tell you, flesh and blood did not reveal this to you but from heaven. I read re-read, i went to study this again and realised that indeed your position is very true. What i mean is that I now fully understand what the transfiguration meant by your few words up there. Thank you so much.


@Ayoku, I am grateful for that word you gave simply there. It makes SENSE!!!! and I think we are fully aligned just that we communicate it differently.

manmacho:

i believe what you did not add is obedience to the spirit, that is how we keep in step with him and not grief him. the part of doing/obedience is what makes the holy sprirt to thrive in our live that is the point of yielding and allowing him to rule in our life.

ayoku777:
I almost bursted into the tears as the Lord taught me this yesterday. JESUS IS EVERYTHING, not Jesus and moses or the law or works.

God bless you

@Ayoku,
I tell you, flesh and blood did not reveal this to you but from heaven. I read re-read, i went to study this again and realised that indeed your position is very true. What i mean is that I now fully understand what the transfiguration meant by your few words up there. Thank you so much.

DrummaBoy:

Paul instructs that we should rightly divide the word of truth.

The doctrines that Paul taught were so sublime that even Peter said that they were difficult to understand; nevertheless Paul place the apostolic authority on his teachings and that of the other apostles as the all time doctrinal position of the church and no one should add or subtract from them.

When Jesus came, his ministry was wholly to the lost sheep of God's kingdom - the Jews. He made no pretense about this. He rarely ministered to the gentiles but the fact that his ministry to the gentiles are recorded in scripture shows to us that God would be calling the gentiles to His kingdom in the days to come. But note JESUS WAS SENT WHOLELY TO THE JEWS.

Also, Jesus messages must be classified into messages to three groups of people are to three distinct DISPENSATIONS. The first will be to the Jews who were under the law, just as He, Jesus, was under the law at his first advent. The second one is his message to the Church, you find these mostly in John 14-17. The last is eschatological, speaking of the millennium to come and some of these messages will be found in Matthew 5-7, sermon on the mount and Matthew 24.

Recognizing this is the only way to RIGHTLY DIVIDE the word of truth: knowing whom to apportion which aspect of scripture to. Thus when we see his admonition in Matthew 23:23 we see clearly a word to the Pharisee, the Jews of Jesus' time. Jesus could not condemn the tithe in that scripture because he would have broken the law, he called to fulfill. But from that statement we see, in addition to the fact that the statement was directed to Jews, that the tithe he referred to was 1. Agricultural products. 2. Was not as important as Mercy, Judgment and Faith. The question here to the tithe advocators is this 1. The tithe you pay are they on agricultural, including husbandry, products? 2. The churches that advocate the tithe: which one is more important to them - money, ie tithe, or mercy - that is looking after the poor? That is just along the line, this discuss is not on tithe.

HOWEVER, Paul teachings starting from the Acts of the Apostle, through Romans and possibly Hebrews, were messages to the church. R B Thieme likes to call it the doctrine for the church age. That message did not even start with Paul! Rather we could say it started with Peter's vision in Acts 10 were God told him not to call what God has sanctified defiled. From then on the mystery of the gospel was gradually revealed: stating that the gospel of Jesus was not a message for the Jews alone but the gentiles was inclusive. Paul, the apostle to the gentiles, had a better understanding into this gospel, which he would later call the gospel of grace.

That gospel clearly shows that the law, given through Moses, has been abolished in the cross of Jesus. It was so distinct a message that Paul's displeasure was clearly shown in the book of Galatians at people who were trying to either force the gentiles to keep Moses' laws, or mix the law with grace (something Peter was guilty of and received a resounding rebuke from Paul) or did not have understanding of either and could be easily deceived by the Judaizers of his time. His position on the law was clear: It is either you keep the whole law (Moses) or non at all (Christ); you could not do it in part (And anyone who commands anybody to PAY tithe is obeying Moses' law); He even went as far as saying anyone who does keep a part of the law has broken the whole law and has fallen from grace. I do not know how the message will sound for those paying tithe: that the very act has displaced you from the grace of God.

So, I envy the amicable position that Alwaystrue and Ayoku have taken. It is simply agreeing to disagree for the sake of peace. But may we not manufacture a peace that Jesus has not made. The law is abolished in Jesus cross; we are free to be led of His Spirit to obey the law of Spirit of Life etched on the tablets of our hearts; this is what will lead to gospel perfection; but even within that perfection we must still rest our faith on the perfect righteousness of Jesus Christ, who died that we might live. I refuse to make the grace given to us through the cross of Jesus in vain.

DrummaBoy:
The law is abolished in Jesus cross; we are free to be led of His Spirit to obey the law of Spirit of Life etched on the tablets of our hearts; this is what will lead to gospel perfection; but even within that perfection we must still rest our faith on the perfect righteousness of Jesus Christ, who died that we might live. I refuse to make the grace given to us through the cross of Jesus in vain.

Bidam: There is a flaw here, Peter wrote that there would be those who would twist Paul's words to mean something incorrect. What kind of people would do that? Peter said these are lawless men (2 Peter 3:17). By "lawless," Peter did not mean people who were without Roman law. Lawless, in this religious context (understanding Paul's writings and other Scriptures correctly), refers to being without God's Law - the Torah. Peter is saying that those who twist Paul's writings are those who don't have (know/follow) Torah. They will approach these letters, in (often willful) ignorance, and incorrectly interpret them.

You err bro. Peter himself did not understand the gospel been propagated by Paul, Peter did not understand what Christ expected of him according to Acts 1:6. The gospel of Christ to gentiles was entrusted to Paul only thus we can understand why he did not deduce it. Paul's writings had nothing to do with the Torah, if you find a connection between the tow, please air it.

Another flaw ,Jesus has all authority in heaven and earth and we are to hear him (Matt. 28: 18; 17: 5) not only JEWS but the whole world cos He created them.

Wrong again...Did God not create all the Egyptians that died in the red sea? God gave Abraham and his offspring the promise and not the whole of mankind. The gentile (with exceptions) were condemned before the resurrection of Christ.

i actually don't know where you got these revelations from..The message of the gospel is ONE and this is JESUS IS THE SAVIOUR OF THE WHOLE WORLD.

Wrong again.. I tire, where do I start from with this error

Jesus himself claimed to have been obedient to the law under which he lived, the Law of Moses (Jn. 8: 29, 55). In fact, the Jews were unable to convict Jesus of any transgression of the law (Jn. 8: 46). It is affirmed in the New Testament that Jesus "did no sin" and "was without sin" (I Pet. 2: 22; Heb. 4: 15). Jesus is the only "man" who ever sinlessly kept the law

As seen, Jesus recognized the authority of the law in his life and taught others to keep the law (Lk. 10: 25-28). Jesus instructed his disciples to obey the law (Matt. 23: 2, 3). Christ defended the law and severely condemned those who perverted the Hebrew scripture (Mk. 7: 7-13; Matt. 23: 16-22)

Jesus is the substance of the shadows, the antitype of the types, and the very epitome of all the moral enunciations of the law. Jesus said, "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill" (Matt. 5: 17). Notice the next verse, "For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled" (vs. 18). Jesus fulfilled the law and inaugurated his system or testament (Lk. 24: 44, 47). Christ's system is not without law, but the onerous system of Moses was nailed to Jesus' cross (Gal. 6: 2, Col. 2: 14, see addendum). Jesus' apostles are "able ministers of the new testament" (2 Cor. 3: 6).
The simple question is "Do you believe that the Bible is the inspired Word of God?"

wrong once again... Hebrews 9;16 explains why Christ had to die for the new covenant to be activated

You are yet to show us from scriptures where Paul said the Law was abolished.
i tend to disagree with your views here.We are to search and study, rightly dividing the Word (according to Torah) with God's Spirit. We are not to casually read and wait for some "personal enlightenment." This is how false teachings come about, how cults are formed and how people fall into grave sin without realizing it

you need to go understand the scriptures bro, what is this rubbish you said up there.

Alwaystrue:

Amen. I know that feeling. In the whole bible is locked the wisdom of all time which the Holy Spirit unlocks and reveals to us as He leads us in all truth.
In it we see and understand the principles of life from daily living to family to business to relationships and conflict resolution to deeper revelations of the heavenlies.
I have reached a point now that things that come to my mind or thoughts through the Holy Spirit are placed beside the Word that confirms it or corrects it. That is the thing about fellowship with the Spirit. He uses all the scripture to instruct us in doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: So that we may be perfect, thoroughly equiped for every good work.

I pray that we will use the equipping we have received for every good work well. That lies our choice and that is where @manmachos post rings true.

ayoku777:

You're right, the Holy Spirit will always use the scriptures in revealing Christ to us and will never contradicts the word, coz he wrote the word himself. But most times in studying scripture, we often project our preferences and prejudices to our interpretation and then call it revelation of the Spirit. This often than not is the cause of doctrinal division in the church. As a matter of fact, 90% of the heresis in the church are as a result of interpreting scripture without listening to the Spirit, not as a result of listening to the Spirit without the scripture.

I believe the Holy Spirit will always use the word and never contradict it, but I also strongly hold that its not the scriptures that helps me understand the Spirit, its the Spirit that helps me understand the scriptures. He uses the scripture to confirm revelation but He is the teacher. If we make the scripture an end, let's not forget that the devil can also use the scriptures not to talk of our own fleshy minds. We should draw closer to the Spirit and we will understand the scriptures.

ayoku777:
I am a staunch believer in the gospel of infinite grace, which acknowledges that receiving and retaining your salvation, justification and the Holy Spirit has nothing to do with law or your obedience to it. Gal 3v2 '...receive ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?' Gal 2v17 '...for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.' The law does not save you nor justify you, neither does your obedience to it help you retain the salvation and justification. Righteousness is authored and finished by faith in Christ ALONE, at no point will works have a saying in helping us receive it or keep us from losing it. Rom 1v17 '...For therein is the righteousness of God revealed FROM FAITH TO FAITH'. Righteousness is received and retained BY FAITH!!

NOW, after Christ through his grace has given us salvation and righteousness and we have received it by faith, he wants us to move unto perfection! Let me say this, the dispensation of grace is not the age of God's indifference to what he hated under the law. Murder still grieves God, greed still displeases him, inhumanity and oppression still breaks his heart and he wants them to stop in the lives of those who are born of Him. For two reasons: For our profit in this age and reward in the age to come; and also for the establishment of His kingdom on earth through his church. An unreformed church can't establish God's kingdom even if they're righteous by the gift of grace. And this reformation only happens when we move unto perfection.

Need you to get this picture before I move. At righteousness you have the life of Christ, at perfection you have His lifestyle; at righteousness you receive Christ's image, at perfection you grow unto His stature; at righteousness you're justified, at perfection you're glorified; at righteousness your spirit is regenerated, at perfection your soul is reformed. Regeneration is instant and immediate by faith but reformation is a process, that is why your addictions didn't miraculously vanish after you said the sinner's prayer even though you were saved and made righteous that instant.

How then do we move unto perfection By fellowship and communion with the Spirit of God. Unlike righteousness by faith which was accomplished by believing with the heart and confessing with the mouth, perfection by fellowship will involve conscious effort on your part. You will need to invest time, focus and energy, this is not to struggle with your flaws or fight your imperfections the way it was done under the law, but rather to fellowship or 'hang out' with the Spirit, and He will now work on your imperfections and sins and shed the love of God abraod in your heart, then live out the life of Christ through you without your own attempt at struggling to do it. Perfection is what takes place when we begin to fellowship with the Spirit and increase in the knowledge and understanding of Christ, causing the Holy Spirit to work on our flaws and imperfections and live out the lifestyle of Christ through us.

So how then do we fellowship with the Spirit of God, so that he can now work-out the lifestyle of Christ through us? The three most powerful tools of fellowship with the Spirit of God that hastens his work of manifesting the power of Christ's life and the glory of the knowledge and understanding of Christ through us is: The word, prayer, and fasting. This is not the religious 'need-oriented' type done to receive something from God or to pat the back of our religious ego. But the type done just to 'hang out' with God the way Enoch did.

Any christian who will practise a lifestyle of continual fellowship with the Spirit through the Word, prayer, and fasting will soon find himself easily overcoming his temper, greed, bitterness, lust and addictions; without him consciously fighting those habits or struggling to deal with them. Then as the sinful habits are worked on by the Spirit and you continue the fellowship with Him, you will now move into increased understanding of the word of God and the manifestation of the power of God and before you know it you're like Christ in person and in power. And that will remain the case if you don't stop the fellowship trend.

This is what I mean by fellowship with the Spirit, which helps you move unto perfection and Christ likeness without the legalistic struggle with our flaws which is the approach of the law.

You are blessed

Ayoku.