Chapter 51  JESUS HATH PITY ON SATAN/SATAN'S IMPENITENCE

When he had prayed to the Lord, his disciples came to him and said: "O master, two things we would know; one is, how you talked with Satan, who nevertheless you say is impenitent; the other is, how God shall come to judge in the day of judgment.' Jesus replied: "Truly I say to you I had compassion on Satan, knowing his fall; and I had compassion on mankind whom he tempts to sin. Therefore I prayed and fasted to our God, who spoke to me by his angel Gabriel: "What seek you, O Jesus, and what is your request?" I answered: "Lord, you know of what evil Satan is the cause, and that through his temptations many perish; he is your creature, Lord, whom you did create; therefore, Lord, have mercy upon him." God answered: "Jesus, behold I will pardon him. Only cause him to say, "Lord, my God, I have sinned, have mercy upon me," and I will pardon him and restore him to his first state." 'I rejoiced greatly," said Jesus, when I heard this, believing that I had made this peace. Therefore I called Satan, who came, saying: "What must I do for you, O Jesus?"I answered: "You shall do it for yourself, O Satan, for I love not your services, but for your good have I called you."

Satan replied: "If you desire not my services neither desire I yours; for I am nobler than you, therefore you are not worthy to serve me you who are clay, while I am spirit." "Let us leave this," I said, "and tell me if it were not well you should return to your first beauty and your first state. You must know that the angel Michael must needs on the day of judgment strike you with the sword of God one hundred thousand times, and each blow will give you the pain of ten hells." Satan replied: "We shall see in that day who can do most; certainly I shall have on my side many angels and most potent idolaters who will trouble God, and he shall know how great a mistake he made to banish me for the sake of a vile [piece of ] clay." Then I said: "O Satan, you are infirm in mind, and know not what you say."

Then Satan, in a derisive manner wagged his head, saying: "Come now, let us make up this peace between me and God; and what must be done say you, O Jesus, since you are sound in mind." I answered: "Two words only need be spoken." Satan replied: "What words?" I answered: "These: I have sinned; have mercy on me." Then Satan said: "Now willingly will I make this peace if God will say these words to me." "Now depart from me," I said, "O cursed one, for you are the wicked author of all injustice and sin, but God is just and without any sin." Satan departed shrieking, and said: "It is not so, O Jesus, but you tell a lie to please God." Now consider," said Jesus to his disciples, "how he will find mercy. They answered: "Never, Lord, because he is impenitent. Speak to us now of the judgment of God.

You have it upside down. God is asking FIRST and MOST IMPORTANTLY for faith before you talk of works. Lazarus died a poor begger . . . where was his works? The thief on the cross . . . what works took him to paradise?

Works are not the ticket to eternity, it is simply an outward show of a regenerated heart. Its impossible for you to be saved and not show the fruits of the spirit which encompasses, showing love to your neighbors, sharing, comforting, ministering to the needs of others . . .

I am glad you finally understand what Catholics believe. You just summed it up yourself here. Thanks.
Now apply this same notion to penance. It is impossible for you to repent and not show the fruits of your repentance which encompasses, showing love to your neighbours, sharing, comforting, ministering to the needs of others, if you stole something, returning it, if you killed someone accept responsiblity and turn yourself in to the authorites (police), make right your wrong. Show that you have truly repented.

On purgatory, man I don't know what to say to you especially after you told me that hell and paradise were on the same plane back then. I just don't understand how it God decided to recreate what he told us he created already.

You still didn't answer my question about where Christ is. Going by your example that you gave. You said that Paradise and hell were on the same plane, and you put a stamp on it by reminding me that Jesus said that the thief will be in Paradise with him (Jesus) so I ask, is Jesus in Paradise or in heaven? I would really appreciate a straightforward answer of. For example: Jesus is in Paradise or Jesus is in heaven.
Thanks.

~Lady~:

I am glad you finally understand what Catholics believe. You just summed it up yourself here. Thanks.
Now apply this same notion to penance. It is impossible for you to repent and not show the fruits of your repentance which encompasses, showing love to your neighbours, sharing, comforting, ministering to the needs of others, if you stole something, returning it, if you killed someone accept responsiblity and turn yourself in to the authorites (police), make right your wrong. Show that you have truly repented.

You still dont get it. Its not an OUTWARD SHOW of self . . . its the Holy Spirit in you making you do those things you presume to be a sign that you have repented. True repentance does not need to be forced . . . the Spirit of God in you leads you to do those things that your carnal man would have found impossible to do.

~Lady~:

On purgatory, man I don't know what to say to you especially after you told me that hell and paradise were on the same plane back then. I just don't understand how it God decided to recreate what he told us he created already.

- You still havent told us WHY purgatory also has an unquenchable fire of torment. Is it a mini hell?
- Why will christians who will go to heaven still have to pass thru purgatory?
- Why do we have to pay for our sins in purgatory when Christ's death and resurrection on the cross paid it all?
- Most importantly, you still havent told us WHERE the idea of purgatory is in the bible.

You wont understand because you choose not to. God created man already . . . why did He have to send Jesus Christ to redeem us again since we were already made in His image in the begining?

~Lady~:

You still didn't answer my question about where Christ is. Going by your example that you gave. You said that Paradise and hell were on the same plane, and you put a stamp on it by reminding me that Jesus said that the thief will be in Paradise with him (Jesus) so I ask, is Jesus in Paradise or in heaven? I would really appreciate a straightforward answer of. For example: Jesus is in Paradise or Jesus is in heaven.
Thanks.

Jesus is in heaven.

Before you start asking straightforward answers make sure you have provided one urself when asked.

- Where is Mary regarded as the ark of the covenant in the bible?

You still don't get it. Its not an OUTWARD SHOW of self . . . its the Holy Spirit in you making you do those things you presume to be a sign that you have repented. True repentance does not need to be forced . . . the Spirit of God in you leads you to do those things that your carnal man would have found impossible to do.

Hun there are those who call on the Lord and are not filled with the Holy Spirit. Not every one who gets baptised and says I am saved is filled with the Spirit. There are Pastors that are not even filled with the Spirit, there are people that claim to be filled with the Spirit and are still as evil as ever. It doesn't have to be an outward show. Penance is in the form of prayer. You find what it is that is enticing you to sin and you stay away from it. Sometimes the reason we are quick to sin is because we do not spend time in the word, we do not spend time in prayer, we get complacent. In penance you devote your time to doing good, or praying or meditating on the word. A sacrifice of our time is penance, a sacrifice of our money is penance, a sacrifice of our prayer is penance (by sacrifice of prayer, I mean praying for other people other than yourself, praying for the world) Penance is not forced. It is just making right your wrong. It is the Spirit in you that moves you to confess your sin in the first place. You are not to approach it like something forceful, but it is something that you know you must do. You must approach it with a contrite heart. You need to acknowledge that you have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. You need actually be sorry for those sins, rather than just going to the confessional and saying Father forgive me for I have sinned. It will really count for nothing and you are only fooling yourselves.
Then after acknowledging your sins in your heart, you need to tell your sins. It is something that is very hard to do, trust me it is, because people always have it in mind that the Priest will be judging them and that they are only man, but while they are only man they have been charged to do as Christ did on earth. The Holy Spirit is their guide. It is not by their authority, but by the authority of God when he breathed on them and asked them to forgive sins, but all this cannot be done without Christ.
Afet telling your sins, you listen to the Priest and trust me he always has something useful to say. In all my experiences of going to the confessional, I have never walked out without enlightenment. I went to confessional once and the Priest did not know me, but I promise you it's like he knew my whole life story. When he started telling me these things I was shocked and he asked me if he was right, I said yes and we just started laughing. He recommended a book to me that will help me with the problem that I had. My penance has usually been in the form of prayer. While praying I realise that not only am I helping others but I am also helping myself in the process.

None of this is done without the prompting of the Spirit. It is the Spirit in you that moves you to know that what you have done is wrong. Then you go ahead and proceed to repent. If the Spirit doesn't move you you won't know that you have done something wrong, you'll really just be a secular person, a person of the world.

Everything we do as True Christians is done with the prompting of the Spirit, he is our guide. Without him he won't know wrong from right. Knowing that you need to repent in the first place is by the prompting of the Spirit. This is what sets us apart from the rest of the world.

One more thing I was thinking about what you wrote. You said that it is impossible to not do works such as sharing, comforting, loving and all that.
Well I have to disagree. It is not impossible to not do works such as mentioned above. There are Christians who hold the Bible to their chest and stand up in Church and sing "Praise the Lord, O sing o sing o, Praise the Lord" and still pass a beggar on the street. They still gossip about their neighbours, and cheat and lie. O there are plently of them. And most of them quote Hebrews 11:6 to prove themselves. They dare not quote James because they know that they do not comfort others, or give to the poor, or lend a helping hand to those in need. But they proclaim themselves saved and sanctified!!! Yes Lord. I have seen too many of them. They walk to Church on Sundays and forget the Bible the remaining days of the week. They don't sacrifice their time to help build a house, or save a life.

The thing about the Catholic Church is that we have an understanding of what it is that we are supposed to do. We've had theologians who studied the Bible well and are led by the Spirit and have had all these things revealed to them. But not just them but to the parishioners.
My favourite is St.Ignatius of Antioch. I hope you do some search about him and his writings, you'll also see how close he was to the disciples and in his works it tells of the teachings of the disciples and their actions, you will be surprised to find that what the disciples taught are what's been taught in the Church till this day,

I have to run now, I'll be back.

Lady, apart from the fact that i got NO straightforward bible-based answers to the questions i asked i do have a few comments to make if you don't mind.

~Lady~:

The thing about the Catholic Church is that we have an understanding of what it is that we are supposed to do. We've had theologians who studied the Bible well and are led by the Spirit and have had all these things revealed to them. But not just them but to the parishioners.

The Holy Spirit in every genuine born again child of God is there to guide, to teach, to reprove and to comfort. After Christ's death and resurrection, God moved away from the group effect to a personal relationship with each of us as individuals. The church is simply there as a support group.

You as an individual should have an idea what God wants from you as a christian not the church. Take your time to study the scriptures, be like the Berean christians who would rather study than take everything Apostle Paul said hook line and sinker.

~Lady~:

Penance is in the form of prayer. You find what it is that is enticing you to sin and you stay away from it.

That is correct . . . the bible says flee all appearance of the devil.

You need to acknowledge that you have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. You need actually be sorry for those sins, rather than just going to the confessional and saying Father forgive me for I have sinned. It will really count for nothing and you are only fooling yourselves. - ma'am, this is the same thing as salvation. What really is penance?

people always have it in mind that the Priest will be judging them and that they are only man, but while they are only man they have been charged to do as Christ did on earth. - ma'am who gave them this charge and WHERE is it in the bible? Are we not ALL christians given the same authority on earth as the priests or have i read my bible upside down?

It is not by their authority, but by the authority of God when he breathed on them and asked them to forgive sins, but all this cannot be done without Christ. - WHERE in the bible did Christ tell them to go forgive sins?
Matthew 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

Afet telling your sins, you listen to the Priest and trust me he always has something useful to say. In all my experiences of going to the confessional, I have never walked out without enlightenment. I went to confessional once and the Priest did not know me, but I promise you it's like he knew my whole life story. When he started telling me these things I was shocked and he asked me if he was right, I said yes and we just started laughing. He recommended a book to me that will help me with the problem that I had. My penance has usually been in the form of prayer. While praying I realise that not only am I helping others but I am also helping myself in the process.

- Ma'am, reading through the book of acts tells me this is a strange and clearly manmade manner of repentance.
When the apostles led others to Christ, they prayed for them, baptised them both in water and the Holy Spirit and straightway opened the scriptures to them . . .

Where in the bible is yours above depicted? What book helps you with a problem better than the bible?

The Holy Spirit in every genuine born again child of God is there to guide, to teach, to reprove and to comfort. After Christ's death and resurrection, God moved away from the group effect to a personal relationship with each of us as individuals. The church is simply there as a support group.

Gotcha

You as an individual should have an idea what God wants from you as a christian not the church. Take your time to study the scriptures, be like the Berean christians who would rather study than take everything Apostle Paul said hook line and sinker.

I do and this is widely encouraged by the Church

ma'am, this is the same thing as salvation. What really is penance?

Showing that you are sorry for your sins. It all ties down to salvation. Repentance and all leads to salvation.

ma'am who gave them this charge and WHERE is it in the bible? Are we not ALL christians given the same authority on earth as the priests or have i read my bible upside down?

Christ gave them the charge.
Matthew 28:19-20

Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,

20teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.

Matthew 10
1Jesus summoned His twelve disciples and gave them authority over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal every kind of disease and every kind of sickness.

7"And as you go, preach, saying, 'The kingdom of heaven is at hand.'

8"Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse the lepers, cast out demons. Freely you received, freely give.

John
21So Jesus said to them again, "Peace be with you; as the Father has sent Me, I also send you."

22And when He had said this, He breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit.

23"If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained."

There are more, but this is all I can think of at top of my head. When I get home I will visit this more.

WHERE in the bible did Christ tell them to go forgive sins?

Well it is directly above, but here it is again.

22And when He had said this, He breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit.

23"If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained."

Ma'am, reading through the book of acts tells me this is a strange and clearly manmade manner of repentance.
When the apostles led others to Christ, they prayed for them, baptised them both in water and the Holy Spirit and straightway opened the scriptures to them . . .

What scripture did they open to them?

~Lady~:

Showing that you are sorry for your sins. It all ties down to salvation. Repentance and all leads to salvation.

My question still stands . . . how does penance differ from salvation? Repentance comes by the conviction by the Holy Spirit . . . it has nothing to do with your own self-flagellation.

~Lady~:

Christ gave them the charge.
Matthew 28:19-20

Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,

20teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.

Was this SPECIFICALLY to the 11 disciples only? We know this is wrong because men like Stephen, Timothy, Silas . . . who did not recieve this charge also did same.

~Lady~:

Matthew 10
1Jesus summoned His twelve disciples and gave them authority over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal every kind of disease and every kind of sickness.

7"And as you go, preach, saying, 'The kingdom of heaven is at hand.'

8"Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse the lepers, cast out demons. Freely you received, freely give.

Again how was this specific to your priests? This is a charge that is required of everyone that is born of the Holy Spirit.
Where have your priests done as the apostles by going to the uttermost parts of the earth to preach the gospel rather than cocoon themselves in stone buildings?
Where have they gone out healing the sick, raising the dead and casting out unclean spirits?
Where have they cleansed lepers and cast out demons?
Why are they so fixated on forgiving sins and hearing confessions? Why do they want to usurp the authority of the Holy Spirit?

~Lady~:

John
21So Jesus said to them again, "Peace be with you; as the Father has sent Me, I also send you."

22And when He had said this, He breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit.

23"If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained."

I choose to tackle the issue of power to forgive sins. We as mortal man DO NOT have the power to remit sins . . . only the blood of Jesus Christ can cleanse ALL unrighteousness. You can spin isolated bible verses all you want.

There are plenty of gospel verses talking about "forgiving" those who wrong us . . . which is in the context the quotation you have taken from John's gospel. It in no way avers that we can go about telling people their sins are cleansed UNTIL they come to the saving grace of Christ.

~Lady~:

What scripture did they open to them?

Acts 17: 2 And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures,

Acts 18:28 For he mightily convinced the Jews, and that publicly, shewing by the scriptures that Jesus was Christ.

Romans 16:26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

There are several instances of the Apostles quoting from Isaiah, the Psalms, and the books of Moses . . . if those are not the scriptures then show me your own.

My question still stands . . . how does penance differ from salvation? Repentance comes by the conviction by the Holy Spirit . . . it has nothing to do with your own self-flagellation.

Then my dear you do not understand that everything we do we do it for salvation. When you repent you do it for slavation, baptism is for salvation. penance is for salvation. There is no separation of any of them. I can't tell you that penance is different from salvation.

Was this SPECIFICALLY to the 11 disciples only? We know this is wrong because men like Stephen, Timothy, Silas . . . who did not recieve this charge also did same.

That is the whole point of passing down of the apostolic ministry. These men did not start on their own. The disciples also laid hands on them when they had the need for assistance.
Acts Chapter 6
1 At hat time, as the number of disciples continud to grow, the Hellenists complained against the Hebrews because their widows were being neglected in the daily distribution.
2 So the Twelve called ogether the community of the disciples and said, "It is not right for us to neglect the word of God to serve at table.
3 Broters select from among you seven reputable men, filled with the Spirit and wisdom, whom we shal appoint to this task.
4 whereas we shall devote ourselves to prayer and to the ministry of the word."
5 The propsoal was acceptable to the whole community, so they chose Stephen, a man filled with faith and the holy Spirit, also Phillip, Prochorus, nicanor, Timon, Parmenas, and Nichols of Antioch, a convert to Judaism.
6 They presente these men to the apostles who prayed and laid hands on them.

What was the point of the apostles laying hands on them if they were already filled with the Spirit. Not only did the apostles have to lay hand on the disciples who already received the holy Spirit to become assistants (Priests), they also needed to lay hands on anyone before the Spirit could fall on them.

Acts 8:14-19
14 Now when the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had accepted the word of God, they sent them Peter and John.
15 who went down and prayed for them, that they might receive the holy Spirit,
16 for it had not yet fallen upon any of them; they had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
17 Then they laid hands on them and the received the holy Spirit
18 When Simon saw that the Spirit was conferred by th elaying on of the apostle' hands, he offered hem money
19 and said "Give me this power too, so that anyone upon whom I lay hands may receive the holy Spirit."

There is a great importance of apostolic ministry. If it was meant for everyone to be able to do what the apostles did, then why aren't we all Pastors? What's the point of having pastors if everyone was able to do it?

Again how was this specific to your priests? This is a charge that is required of everyone that is born of the Holy Spirit.

Read above.

Where have your priests done as the apostles by going to the uttermost parts of the earth to preach the gospel rather than cocoon themselves in stone buildings?

You certainly don't know about the missions of these priests or maybe you just want to be angry and express your anger. If there is any "Church" on this earth that goes out to rural areas and preach to people or help them it is the Catholic Priests, the nuns, the people, the Catholic mission.

Priests don't cocon themselves in a stone building and I have enver come across one that does. I do know that the Priests that I have come in contact with go out of their way to help those in need without any regards to whether they ae protestant or Catholic, black or white, muslim or buddhist, hindus or zaoists. They reach everywhere. There are Catholic missions in th Middle East, Asia, Europe, Africa, North America, South America, Central America.

You can't honestly bash the fact that Priests are not allowed to marry or own property because they're moved around a lot and then do a 180 and say they don't do anything. There is a reason why Catholics are the majority christian. Priests take their time to learn arabic, hebrew, chinese, japanese, mandarin, german, italian, spanish, whatever the language name it, they speak it. The Priest that confirmed me just returned from Mexico on a mission, he's a yoruba man that speaks spanish, the one currently in my parish is an igbo man that speaks spanish and latin. He got called from his mission in mexico to come to my parish.

If anyone opens their mouth and say that the Catholic Priests are doing nothing and are not going out to the world, they are speaking out of ignorance as you have.

Where have they gone out healing the sick, raising the dead and casting out unclean spirits?

I haven't heard of raising the dead in present day, but there have been many in the past, but I do kno wabout healing the sick and casting out unclean spirits, have you heard of exorcism?

Where have they cleansed lepers and cast out demons?

check above.

Why are they so fixated on forgiving sins and hearing confessions? Why do they want to usurp the authority of the Holy Spirit?

If you will calm yourself from your anger, you will see that they are not fixated on forgiving sins and hearing confessions or usurping the authority of the holy Spirit. They do a whole lot more than that. Like heal the sick, and help people in need, minister to people and help in their conversion, run any parishioner to the hospital if there are no means of them getting there. Paying for meals of student parishioners. Doing God's work in the neighbourhood.

Now what have your pastor done? How many times a week does he visit the hospital and pray for the sick, how many times a week does he help in the homeless shelter, how many homeless shelters does he run, how many children have they picked up from school when their mother's were not able to leave work on time to pick them up, how many times does your pastor wake up in the middle of the night to answer a parishioners call, how many times does he drp whatever he is doing and run to the aid of anyone, irregardless of race, social class, religion?

I choose to tackle the issue of power to forgive sins. We as mortal man DO NOT have the power to remit sins . . . only the blood of Jesus Christ can cleanse ALL unrighteousness. You can spin isolated bible verses all you want.

No one made the claim that they do this of their own power. If so, by what power did the apostles raise the dead and heal the sick, I thought only God could do this. So are the apostles God now? By what power did apostle Paul forgive?

2Corinthians 2:10
10 Whomever you forgive anything, so do I. For indeed what I have forgiven, if I have forgiven anything, has been for you in the presence of Christ.

Then by what authority do ministers perform marriage, and why do they say "by that authority vested in me, I now pronounce you husband and wife" shouldn't God be the one marrying a couple, isn't the mariage supposed to be pleasant in God's sight, why then is the minister marrying them?

Why can't any church member be the one to do the funeral rites for someone, why does a minister have to be there to pray for them.

What about baptism? WHy can't any one of the church members baptise? Did any member of your church baptise you or did it have to be done by the minister? If by the minister, why? What's so special about him? Why couldn't you just get baptised at home? I mean anyone with the Spirit can perform it right?

It in no way avers that we can go about telling people their sins are cleansed UNTIL they come to the saving grace of Christ.

Who says the Priests go about telling people their sins are cleansed without them coming to the saving grace of Christ?

There are several instances of the Apostles quoting from Isaiah, the Psalms, and the books of Moses . . . if those are not the scriptures then show me your own.

But those scriptures don't tell us about the life of Christ. I thought Christians are to go by the Bible only? The scriptures didn't include the New Testament as we know it.

baptised them both in water and the Holy Spirit

So I went back and saw this, how is it that they baptised with the Holy Spirit?

You still havent told us WHY purgatory also has an unquenchable fire of torment. Is it a mini hell?

Well I haven't been to purgatory, so I don't know if there actually is a fire, or if it's something else.
Maybe you might want to find out?

Why will christians who will go to heaven still have to pass through purgatory?

Because Christians die even with sin. And heaven will not permit any sin.

Revelation 21:27
but nothing unclean will enter it, nor anyone who does abominable things or tells lies. Only those will enter whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Why do we have to pay for our sins in purgatory when Christ's death and resurrection on the cross paid it all?

Why do you pay for your sins on earth even if Christ's death and resurrection on the cross pais it al? Stop sounding like an infant.

Most importantly, you still havent told us WHERE the idea of purgatory is in the bible.

Then you have been skipping my posts.

You still haven't given an explanation of how it is God recreated heaven.

You wont understand because you choose not to. God created man already . . . why did He have to send Jesus Christ to redeem us again since we were already made in His image in the begining?

Because we sinned? Is this the best you can do?

Now why did God recreate the heavens after Christ's death?

Jesus is in heaven.

OH MY GOSH ARE YOU SERIOUS? I really thought he was in paradise and that paradise was different from heaven. Remember, the fathers of the OT ended up in paradise and Christ told the thief on the cross that he would be in Paradise with him? Oh my gosh how then did Christ end up in heaven? That means that the thief is not in with Christ as Christ told him he's be. Argghhh!!!! OMG!!! It seems like Christ lied. Christ deceived him, telling him that he was going to be in Paradise with him, but he clearly left paradise and went to heaven, leaving that poor thief who believed in him alone in paradise.

Where is Mary regarded as the ark of the covenant in the bible?

Where is the FATHER, SON AND HOLY GHOST, regarded as the TRINITY in the Bible?

David you keep claiming that I am reading with Catholic glasses or eyes or whatever.
Why don't you go through the verses that I provided and give the actual meaning, if I am wrong?

I am talking the beginning to the end, start from page 14 where I answered all your questions. Go through those verses that I provided and explain each and every one of them.

~Lady~:

David you keep claiming that I am reading with Catholic glasses or eyes or whatever.
Why don't you go through the verses that I provided and give the actual meaning, if I am wrong?

I am talking the beginning to the end, start from page 14 where I answered all your questions. Go through those verses that I provided and explain each and every one of them.

You answered not a single question, you have simply gone the olabowale route . . . drown your inability to provide straightforward, short and direct to the point answers in a deluge of words that dont really say nothing when you go thru them with a fine tooth comb.

I'll be providing ripostes in a sec.

You answered not a single question, you have simply gone the olabowale route . . . drown your inability to provide straightforward, short and direct to the point answers in a deluge of words that don't really say nothing when you go through them with a fine tooth comb.

I'll be providing ripostes in a sec.

I am waiting. Please make sure you go through it with a fine tooth comb. I am definitely waiting to address you.

Thanks for letting me know that you really didn't read what I wrote, no wonder you kept making baseless claims.

~Lady~:

Then my dear you do not understand that everything we do we do it for salvation. When you repent you do it for slavation, baptism is for salvation. penance is for salvation. There is no separation of any of them. I can't tell you that penance is different from salvation.

still the same round-about argument. Repentance i know, baptism i know . . . but what is penance? Is there any chance you will provide a direct definition backed up by the scriptures?

~Lady~:

That is the whole point of passing down of the apostolic ministry. These men did not start on their own. The disciples also laid hands on them when they had the need for assistance.
Acts Chapter 6
1 At hat time, as the number of disciples continud to grow, the Hellenists complained against the Hebrews because their widows were being neglected in the daily distribution.
2 So the Twelve called ogether the community of the disciples and said, "It is not right for us to neglect the word of God to serve at table.
3 Broters select from among you seven reputable men, filled with the Spirit and wisdom, whom we shal appoint to this task.
4 whereas we shall devote ourselves to prayer and to the ministry of the word."
5 The propsoal was acceptable to the whole community, so they chose Stephen, a man filled with faith and the holy Spirit, also Phillip, Prochorus, nicanor, Timon, Parmenas, and Nichols of Antioch, a convert to Judaism.
6 They presente these men to the apostles who prayed and laid hands on them.

What was the point of the apostles laying hands on them if they were already filled with the Spirit. Not only did the apostles have to lay hand on the disciples who already received the holy Spirit to become assistants (Priests), they also needed to lay hands on anyone before the Spirit could fall on them.

Pls dont confuse catholic priesthood with the apostolic faith of the ancient apostles.
Apparently you dont realise that laying on of hands is not solely for the purpose of imparting the Holy Ghost.

1 Timothy 4:14 Neglect not the gift that is in thee, which was given thee by prophecy, with the laying on of the hands of the presbytery.

~Lady~:

Acts 8:14-19
14 Now when the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had accepted the word of God, they sent them Peter and John.
15 who went down and prayed for them, that they might receive the holy Spirit,
16 for it had not yet fallen upon any of them; they had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
17 Then they laid hands on them and the received the holy Spirit
18 When Simon saw that the Spirit was conferred by th elaying on of the apostle' hands, he offered hem money
19 and said "Give me this power too, so that anyone upon whom I lay hands may receive the holy Spirit."

There is a great importance of apostolic ministry. If it was meant for everyone to be able to do what the apostles did, then why aren't we all Pastors? What's the point of having pastors if everyone was able to do it?

That is not new, we all know this. The problem is that you're trying in vain to tie the apostolic ministry to the catholic priesthood . . . the apostles did not practice those manmade doctrines you espouse.

~Lady~:

If anyone opens their mouth and say that the Catholic Priests are doing nothing and are not going out to the world, they are speaking out of ignorance as you have.

We hear catholics going for charity missions, we hear of building of hospitals, building schools and helping the poor. However the one thing that is needful is that which they have neglected - the preaching of the gospel to the lost!

~Lady~:

I haven't heard of raising the dead in present day, but there have been many in the past, but I do kno wabout healing the sick and casting out unclean spirits, have you heard of exorcism?

the biblical men of God were not exorcists using candles and such to drive out demons.

~Lady~:

If you will calm yourself from your anger,

nay, forget my tone. I am not angry one bit.

~Lady~:

you will see that they are not fixated on forgiving sins and hearing confessions or usurping the authority of the holy Spirit. They do a whole lot more than that. Like heal the sick, and help people in need, minister to people and help in their conversion, run any parishioner to the hospital if there are no means of them getting there. Paying for meals of student parishioners. Doing God's work in the neighbourhood.

Still the usurp the authority of the Holy Ghost no?

~Lady~:

Now what have your pastor done? How many times a week does he visit the hospital and pray for the sick, how many times a week does he help in the homeless shelter, how many homeless shelters does he run, how many children have they picked up from school when their mother's were not able to leave work on time to pick them up, how many times does your pastor wake up in the middle of the night to answer a parishioners call, how many times does he drp whatever he is doing and run to the aid of anyone, irregardless of race, social class, religion?

We all account INDIVIDUALLY to Christ on the last day . . . what my pastor chooses to do does not concern me. Many atheists do the above and beyond . . . are they going to heaven too?

~Lady~:

No one made the claim that they do this of their own power. If so, by what power did the apostles raise the dead and heal the sick, I thought only God could do this. So are the apostles God now? By what power did apostle Paul forgive?

2Corinthians 2:10
10 Whomever you forgive anything, so do I. For indeed what I have forgiven, if I have forgiven anything, has been for you in the presence of Christ.

Dont confuse the two . . . John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Note that scripture does not say "to as many priests as recieved Him" which in effect means we ALL have the power given to us by the workings of the Holy Spirit to do those things that Christ did.

The power to forgive sins? Nay we dont! Again you are misquoting brother Peter in 2 Corinthians . . . did you read that chapter from verse 1 or you just picked the verse that most suited your argument?

Lets see verses 5 But if any have caused grief, he hath not grieved me, but in part: that I may not overcharge you all.   6 Sufficient to such a man is this punishment, which was inflicted of many.
  7 So that contrariwise ye ought rather to forgive him, and comfort him, lest perhaps such a one should be swallowed up with overmuch sorrow.

Was he talking of forgiveness of sin unto salvation here?
So if you offend me and i forgive you is it the same as Christ forgiving you by cleansing you with the blood He shed on the cross of calvary?

~Lady~:

Then by what authority do ministers perform marriage, and why do they say "by that authority vested in me, I now pronounce you husband and wife" shouldn't God be the one marrying a couple, isn't the mariage supposed to be pleasant in God's sight, why then is the minister marrying them?

By the same authority given to them in John 1:12. What has this to do with the power to forgive SINS?

~Lady~:

Why can't any church member be the one to do the funeral rites for someone, why does a minister have to be there to pray for them.

Any sanctified believer can do this . . . burial and all the razzmatazz attached to it is manmade . . . here is what Christ Himself had to say - Luke 9:60 Jesus said unto him, Let the dead bury their dead: but go thou and preach the kingdom of God.

~Lady~:

What about baptism? WHy can't any one of the church members baptise? Did any member of your church baptise you or did it have to be done by the minister? If by the minister, why? What's so special about him? Why couldn't you just get baptised at home? I mean anyone with the Spirit can perform it right?

Any believer filled with the baptism of the Holy Ghost has the power to lead you in baptism. The idea that it must be a "minister" has no basis in the scriptures. Timothy was but a youth when he began to exercise his gifts in the body of Christ.

~Lady~:

But those scriptures don't tell us about the life of Christ. I thought Christians are to go by the Bible only? The scriptures didn't include the New Testament as we know it.

Who told you? The new testament as you read it were letters by the apostles to their various churches that were actively read during services.

~Lady~:

So I went back and saw this, how is it that they baptised with the Holy Spirit?

see above.

~Lady~:

Well I haven't been to purgatory, so I don't know if there actually is a fire, or if it's something else.
Maybe you might want to find out?

What a shame. and you've been arguing all these while. Lets carefully analyse your unbiblical claims - catholics say everyone who dies goes first to purgatory where they pay for their sins first (a clear falsehood), if this is the case then where did Lazarus and the rich man go? Purgatory stages A and B?

~Lady~:

Because Christians die even with sin. And heaven will not permit any sin.

Revelation 21:27
but nothing unclean will enter it, nor anyone who does abominable things or tells lies. Only those will enter whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Isaiah 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

We have an advocate with the Father . . . Jesus Christ our Lord. Nothing unclean will enter heaven but unfortunately YOU by your own strength canst not make thyself clean . . . the blood avails for me.

~Lady~:

Why do you pay for your sins on earth even if Christ's death and resurrection on the cross pais it al? Stop sounding like an infant.

No one pays for any sin either on earth or in heaven as long as you accept the salvation by the blood of the Lamb.

~Lady~:

Then you have been skipping my posts.

Easy to do as they are mostly bereft of the real issues.

~Lady~:

You still haven't given an explanation of how it is God recreated heaven.

Neither have you explained why God was grieved after He created man in His own image.

~Lady~:

Because we sinned? Is this the best you can do?

Now why did God recreate the heavens after Christ's death?

When you get to heaven ask Him why He is just building the mansions as He said in the book of John.

~Lady~:

OH MY GOSH ARE YOU SERIOUS? I really thought he was in paradise and that paradise was different from heaven. Remember, the fathers of the OT ended up in paradise and Christ told the thief on the cross that he would be in Paradise with him? Oh my gosh how then did Christ end up in heaven? That means that the thief is not in with Christ as Christ told him he's be. Argghhh!!!! OMG!!! It seems like Christ lied. Christ deceived him, telling him that he was going to be in Paradise with him, but he clearly left paradise and went to heaven, leaving that poor thief who believed in him alone in paradise.

In one line try and elucidate what you mean here. Its all lost in a hubris of words.

~Lady~:

Where is the FATHER, SON AND HOLY GHOST, regarded as the TRINITY in the Bible?

[size=14pt]1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.[/size]

I can't believe you've been arguing with the muslims all these while, you don't even understand your bible.

still the same round-about argument. Repentance i know, baptism i know . . . but what is penance? Is there any chance you will provide a direct definition backed up by the scriptures?

If you think that penance is separate from repentance then you haven't ben paying any attention.
It is called the sacrament of repentance, the sacrament of confession, the sacrament of penance, the sacrament of reconciliation, it is the same sacrament.

Please don't confuse catholic priesthood with the apostolic faith of the ancient apostles.
Apparently you don't realise that laying on of hands is not solely for the purpose of imparting the Holy Ghost.

Catholic priesthood is based upon the faith of the ancient apostles, now if you will please answer the question that I asked. What was the point of laying their hands on them? They were already filled with the Spirit, why did they lay their hands on them?

That is not new, we all know this. The problem is that you're trying in vain to tie the apostolic ministry to the catholic priesthood . . . the apostles did not practice those manmade doctrines you espouse.

Oh on the contrary they defined those "manmade" doctrines. That is why the Church pays attention to tradition and the Scriptures. Cause see before you had the scriptures that you base everything solely on, those apostles were handing down tradtions and teachings that are taught today in the Church. If you think that all the actions and teachings of the apostles are in the New Testament, then you're an idiot (sorry) and you clearly don't know the history of The Church and the Bible.

We hear catholics going for charity missions, we hear of building of hospitals, building schools and helping the poor. However the one thing that is needful is that which they have neglected - the preaching of the gospel to the lost!

It is ignorant of you to confess that the Catholics go out on missions and do God's work and yet they don't preach the gospel when we all know that there are many Parishes all around the world and that where these Priests and missionaries go a Parish and Christian community is formed. And mass is mandatory to be held everyday, how then do they not preach the gospel?

But wait, you changed your mind, I thought they didn't do these things. Wasn't that your original point? Don't switch now, go hard or home, continue with your old points.

the biblical men of God were not exorcists using candles and such to drive out demons.

HAHAHAHA DUDE, You really think candles are used to drive out demons?
I pray by my bed, does that mean that with my bed God will answer my prayers?
I turn on my lamp to read, do I have to have the lamp in order to read?

nay, forget my tone. I am not angry one bit.

Still the usurp the authority of the Holy Ghost no?

Prove it. Are you trying to become a pastor and you know that you won't be a part of the apostolic succession, so you're angry? (j/k)

We all account INDIVIDUALLY to Christ on the last day . . . what my pastor chooses to do does not concern me. Many atheists do the above and beyond . . . are they going to heaven too?

So if your pastor is married and continually commits adultery, you will continue to attend his church?
If your pastor blasphemes, which he does, you will continue to attend his church?
Based on the fact that he is accountable for his own on judgment day?
Please this is not an issue of atheist.

Dont confuse the two . . . John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Note that scripture does not say "to as many priests as recieved Him" which in effect means we ALL have the power given to us by the workings of the Holy Spirit to do those things that Christ did.

Then anyone should be able to baptise people then. How many have you baptised?
Anyone can perform wedding rites in the Church, anyone can perform funeral rites then?

The power to forgive sins? Nay we don't! Again you are misquoting brother Peter in 2 Corinthians . . . did you read that chapter from verse 1 or you just picked the verse that most suited your argument?

Lets see verses 5 But if any have caused grief, he hath not grieved me, but in part: that I may not overcharge you all. 6 Sufficient to such a man is this punishment, which was inflicted of many.
7 So that contrariwise ye ought rather to forgive him, and comfort him, lest perhaps such a one should be swallowed up with overmuch sorrow.

So why then did Paul forgive them? I read through the whole passage. I know what it says, but I want you to tell me why Paul forgave what they forgave.

Was he talking of forgiveness of sin unto salvation here?
So if you offend me and i forgive you is it the same as Christ forgiving you by cleansing you with the blood He shed on the cross of calvary?

Yes. If I offend you, I also offend Christ because you are a part of Christ's body. When I seek forgiveness from you, I should also seek forgiveness from Christ. Just as Christ said when you do for the others you do for him, when you do not do ofor others you do not do for him. When you sin against others you sin against God.

When you steal from me, you sin against me and against God.
When you lie to me, you sin against me and against God.

By the same authority given to them in John 1:12. What has this to do with the power to forgive SINS?

As the Father sent him, so he sent them. There is a reason why he was straight forward, whatever sins you forgive is forgiven them, and whatever sins you do not forgive is not forgiven them.

If Christ was talking to them about the sins man commit against them, then why would he tell them whichever sin you retain is retained when in the Lord's prayer we ask God to forgive us sins as we forgive our debtors. Christ gave an example of this type of forgiveness when he spoke of the parable of the unforgiving servant. How can we ask God to forgive us when we don't forgive others?

That is not what Christ was talking about when he said" As the Lord sent me, so I send you, Receive the Spirit whose sins you forgive are forgiven, whose sins you retain are reatined."
It is clear as day.

Any sanctified believer can do this . . . burial and all the razzmatazz attached to it is manmade . . . here is what Christ Himself had to say - Luke 9:60 Jesus said unto him, Let the dead bury their dead: but go thou and preach the kingdom of God.

So should the dead come to bury the dead, how can this be when they're dead? (I really can't wait for you to respond to this)

Any believer filled with the baptism of the Holy Ghost has the power to lead you in baptism. The idea that it must be a "minister" has no basis in the scriptures. Timothy was but a youth when he began to exercise his gifts in the body of Christ.

Oh but you forget that he was given a charge by Apostle Paul. Do you not see apostolic succession in that? Timothy didn't show up out of no where and get the authority to preach. Paul commissioned him and told him what he should do. Remember 1 Timothy and 2Timothy. Don't make me write out the two books.

Who told you? The new testament as you read it were letters by the apostles to their various churches that were actively read during services.

You did!!!! I asked a question and this is what you gave to me

There are several instances of the Apostles quoting from Isaiah, the Psalms, and the books of Moses . . . if those are not the scriptures then show me your own.

You gave me the OT.

see above.

Which above, there are many above. I need to you to be specific on your directions, but more so, how is it that the disciples could baptise with the Holy Spirit. I thought only God could?

What a shame. and you've been arguing all these while. Lets carefully analyse your unbiblical claims - catholics say everyone who dies goes first to purgatory where they pay for their sins first (a clear falsehood), if this is the case then where did Lazarus and the rich man go? Purgatory stages A and B?

Sweet heart whether or not fire is in purgatory, does not mean that purgatory does not exist.
Well why don't you answer for me? Didn't God have Paradise and heaven and hell? Isn't paradise and heaven separate? And then now don't we just have heaven and hell? Didn't God recreate his universe his parallels. After Christ came didn't he eliminate paradise because the fathers went to paradise and now that Christ is here they're in heaven and paradise is eliminated because there is now a mediator and it''s not needed.

We have an advocate with the Father . . . Jesus Christ our Lord. Nothing unclean will enter heaven but unfortunately YOU by your own strength canst not make thyself clean . . . the blood avails for me.

One more time how does this negate what the Catholics preach? Who said that we as humans have the power to cleanse ourselves of our sins?
I just don't get it.

No one pays for any sin either on earth or in heaven as long as you accept the salvation by the blood of the Lamb.

hahaha you are so naive. Please why did Ananais and Sapphira die? Weren't they part of the community of the Church, to be a part of the community of the Church, shouldn't you have received salvation by the blod of the Lamb? So why did they die since they already had salvation by the blood of the Lamb? certainly they believed they did

Easy to do as they are mostly bereft of the real issues.

How did you know they were bereft of the real issues if you didn't read them? Don't be stupid go and read and then comment on them. Don't forget to give an interpretaion of the true meaning of the verses quoted.

When you get to heaven ask Him why He is just building the mansions as He said in the book of John.

So you agree that God did creation over. Hmmm nice to know. Show me where he builds in the book of John.

In one line try and elucidate what you mean here. Its all lost in a hubris of words.

Oh no, I was detailed so that you won't misunderstand me. Now stop hiding and face it. Answer why Christ is in heaven whereas he told the thief he would be in paradise and going by your reasoning paradise and heaven are different. So why did Christ lie to the thief and tell him that he will be with him in Paradise?
I will separate the words for you.

OH MY GOSH ARE YOU SERIOUS? I really thought he was in paradise and that paradise was different from heaven.

Remember, the fathers of the OT ended up in paradise and Christ told the thief on the cross that he would be in Paradise with him?
Oh my gosh how then did Christ end up in heaven?
That means that the thief is not in with Christ as Christ told him he'll be.
Argghhh!!!! OMG!!! It seems like Christ lied. Christ deceived him, telling him that he was going to be in Paradise with him, but he clearly left paradise and went to heaven, leaving that poor thief who believed in him alone in paradise.

Now address this issue.

1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

And I still don't see the word TRINITY. WHERE IS THE WORD "TRINITY"?

It says Father, Word, Holy Ghost, but it does not say TRINITY.




























I am happy for you.

~Lady~:

If you think that penance is separate from repentance then you haven't ben paying any attention.
It is called the sacrament of repentance, the sacrament of confession, the sacrament of penance, the sacrament of reconciliation, it is the same sacrament.

Sacrament - religious rite.
Madam does it occur to you that christianity is not a religion but a way of life for the apostles who were so christened because they were like Christ? Where in the bible did the apostles talk of sacraments as a rite?
Please ma, you still havent defined what penance is . . . all you've done so far is dance around. You say it is the same as repentance . . . but WHY does it have a special place in the catholic church or where they just playing around with names? Is it not true that the living can pay money as penance for the dead to absolve them of their sins?

~Lady~:

Catholic priesthood is based upon the faith of the ancient apostles, now if you will please answer the question that I asked. What was the point of laying their hands on them? They were already filled with the Spirit, why did they lay their hands on them?

That's what you've been brainwashed to think. Please pick up your bible, Peter was married, brother Phillip had two daughters who also prophesied . . . why are your priests celibate? The bible talks of the bishops being husbands of one wife (not compulsory) but why is yours radically different?

~Lady~:

Oh on the contrary they defined those "manmade" doctrines. That is why the Church pays attention to tradition and the Scriptures. Cause see before you had the scriptures that you base everything solely on, those apostles were handing down tradtions and teachings that are taught today in the Church. If you think that all the actions and teachings of the apostles are in the New Testament, then you're an idiot (sorry) and you clearly don't know the history of The Church and the Bible.

Mark 7:7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

~Lady~:

It is ignorant of you to confess that the Catholics go out on missions and do God's work and yet they don't preach the gospel when we all know that there are many Parishes all around the world and that where these Priests and missionaries go a Parish and Christian community is formed. And mass is mandatory to be held everyday, how then do they not preach the gospel?

Parish, christian community, mass . . . brilliant religious words . . . empty of spiritual meaning.

~Lady~:

But wait, you changed your mind, I thought they didn't do these things. Wasn't that your original point? Don't switch now, go hard or home, continue with your old points.

perhaps you're reading something else.

~Lady~:

HAHAHAHA DUDE, You really think candles are used to drive out demons?
I pray by my bed, does that mean that with my bed God will answer my prayers?
I turn on my lamp to read, do I have to have the lamp in order to read?

Those candles are there for a reason . . . if you don't know its ok to say so instead of prevaricating.
Look at the ridiculous examples you bring up, is a bed placed in front of every church?

~Lady~:

Prove it. Are you trying to become a pastor and you know that you won't be a part of the apostolic succession, so you're angry? (j/k)

Being a pastor isnt my calling. Just 2 examples:
- Vicarius Filli Dei
- confessions

~Lady~:

So if your pastor is married and continually commits adultery, you will continue to attend his church?
If your pastor blasphemes, which he does, you will continue to attend his church?
Based on the fact that he is accountable for his own on judgment day?
Please this is not an issue of atheist.

sigh. What has this got to do with the issues? If my pastor sins why should i remain under one with whom the anointing is departed? He will answer for his iniquity on the last day.

Atheists also do charity not so? What is the difference between they and mother Theresa? not much especially for a woman who once confessed feeling spiritually empty.

~Lady~:

Then anyone should be able to baptise people then. How many have you baptised?

This isnt about me. Seems this discussion is pettering out into silliness. If you can't biblically address the issues just say so.

~Lady~:

Anyone can perform wedding rites in the Church, anyone can perform funeral rites then?

Madam . . . wedding rites and funeral rites are not mandatory church/biblical "rites". Please show me where Peter was performing elaborate burial rites? How did Mary and Martha bury Lazarus? Who was the minister in charge?
When Christ was buried, who preached the sermon at His gravesite?

I marvel at the level to which manmade nonsense has insidously entered christendom.

~Lady~:

So why then did Paul forgive them? I read through the whole passage. I know what it says, but I want you to tell me why Paul forgave what they forgave.

Read it again and stop asking frivolous questions.

~Lady~:

Yes. If I offend you, I also offend Christ because you are a part of Christ's body. When I seek forgiveness from you, I should also seek forgiveness from Christ. Just as Christ said when you do for the others you do for him, when you do not do ofor others you do not do for him. When you sin against others you sin against God.

If you said you would call tomorrow and failed to because of circumstances beyond your control would that qualify as offending Christ?

~Lady~:

When you steal from me, you sin against me and against God.
When you lie to me, you sin against me and against God.

see directly above. You seem not to understand the issues or are merely grasping at straws now.

~Lady~:

As the Father sent him, so he sent them. There is a reason why he was straight forward, whatever sins you forgive is forgiven them, and whatever sins you do not forgive is not forgiven them.

Forgiveness is by the blood and blood alone . . . did Christ give you His blood to dispense as you will too?

~Lady~:

That is not what Christ was talking about when he said" As the Lord sent me, so I send you, Receive the Spirit whose sins you forgive are forgiven, whose sins you retain are reatined."
It is clear as day.

your heresy is what is clear as day. Read your bible instead of relying on mass only.

~Lady~:

So should the dead come to bury the dead, how can this be when they're dead? (I really can't wait for you to respond to this)

I didnt put the verse there, ask Christ when you see Him.

~Lady~:

Oh but you forget that he was given a charge by Apostle Paul. Do you not see apostolic succession in that? Timothy didn't show up out of no where and get the authority to preach. Paul commissioned him and told him what he should do. Remember 1 Timothy and 2Timothy. Don't make me write out the two books.

Every man born of water and of the spirit and filled with the Holy Ghost has the authority to minister the gospel.

~Lady~:

more so, how is it that the disciples could baptise with the Holy Spirit. I thought only God could?

Oh Lord. We have the power to lay hands on others to recieve the Holy Spirit . . . we are NOT the givers but merely the vessels through which it is given.

- Forgiveness of sin (which is eternally of confusion to you) is by the blood. Heb 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

Madam this is clear as daylight except to the spiritually blind . . . the remission of sins can only occur through the blood of a testator. Please read the entire book of Hebrews to see why you don't have the power to forgive sins because YOU are not the testator neither are you the one who shed blood for sin.

Why do you think the pharisees thot Christ blasphemed for telling the lame man his sins were forgiven him? Didnt they know that everyone could forgive sin?

Christ! Even the pharisees werent these blind!

~Lady~:

Sweet heart whether or not fire is in purgatory, does not mean that purgatory does not exist.

Its up to you to show us in the pages of the bible not in the pages of some pope's notes.

~Lady~:

One more time how does this negate what the Catholics preach? Who said that we as humans have the power to cleanse ourselves of our sins?
I just don't get it.

we don't. if we had the power Christ would not have come. Why do you think the old testament jews needed the blood of bulls and goats once a yr? why could they not just attend mass and have the prophet absolve them of their sins?

~Lady~:

hahaha you are so naive. Please why did Ananais and Sapphira die? Weren't they part of the community of the Church, to be a part of the community of the Church, shouldn't you have received salvation by the blod of the Lamb? So why did they die since they already had salvation by the blood of the Lamb? certainly they believed they did

I don't mind being naive, its better than being blind. There is judgement for sin which is death. That we are not struck dead the minute we open our mouths to lie is by the mercy and grace of our Father.
I can't believe a christian still have problems with such simple issues as this.
The fact that grace abounds does not mean we shld abuse it and believe we will always be safe even when we sin . . . read Paul's brilliant expose on this in Romans 6.

~Lady~:

How did you know they were bereft of the real issues if you didn't read them? Don't be stupid go and read and then comment on them. Don't forget to give an interpretaion of the true meaning of the verses quoted.

Ah when we lose coherence we resort to abuse? reminds me of blabs787, and to think YOU were busy criticizing him when you were basically clueless about your own scriptures. 

~Lady~:

So you agree that God did creation over. Hmmm nice to know. Show me where he builds in the book of John.

A primary school child wont reason this way.  God didnt do creation all over again, He created man in His own image, man fell and God had to find a way to redeem man to Himself again . . . duh!

~Lady~:

Oh no, I was detailed so that you won't misunderstand me. Now stop hiding and face it. Answer why Christ is in heaven whereas he told the thief he would be in paradise and going by your reasoning paradise and heaven are different. So why did Christ lie to the thief and tell him that he will be with him in Paradise?
I will separate the words for you.

I'm not hiding any face ma'am . . . rather YOU are the one dodging issues.

I asked detailed questions earlier all of which you have tried to unsuccessfully dodge by harping on non-issues . . . here i go again for the 20th time.

[size=20pt] - CAN YOU DEFINE PENANCE WITHOUT HIDING UNDER THE SKIRTS OF REPENTANCE?
- WHERE IS MARY REFERED TO AS THE ARK OF THE COVENANT?
- WHERE IS PURGATORY IN THE BIBLE?
- WHERE IN THE BIBLE ARE YOUR PRIESTS GIVEN THE LICENSE TO HEAR CONFESSIONS OF SINS AND TO FORGIVE THEM?
- DO WE STILL PAY FOR SIN AFTER DEATH?
- WHAT IF VICARIUS FILLI DEI?[/size]

Madam those where the questions until you decietfully tried to turn this into meaningless brickbats!

~Lady~:

Now address this issue.

typical olabowale . . . "now address this issue" as if she addressed the real issues that initially precipitated the discourse. Start with the questions asked you first.

~Lady~:

And I still don't see the word TRINITY. WHERE IS THE WORD "TRINITY"?

It says Father, Word, Holy Ghost, but it does not say TRINITY.

Perhaps English language was invented in their day? What a dumb assertion. Where is vicarius filli dei in your bible?
Where is penance in your bible? Where is purgatory in your bible? where is mary refered to as queen of heaven in your bible?

Go on and ask more dumb questions. [quote][/quote]

davidylan:

[size=14pt]1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.[/size]

I can't believe you've been arguing with the muslims all these while, you don't even understand your bible.

Stop wallowing in biblical ignorance. Have you ever heard about the Comma Johanneum ==>

The Comma Johanneum is a comma (a short clause) contained in most translations of the First Epistle of John published from 1522 until the latter part of the nineteenth century, owing to the widespread use of the third edition of the Textus Receptus (TR) as the sole source for translation. In translations containing the clause, such as the King James Version, 1 John 5:7-8 reads as follows (with the Comma in bold print):

5:7 "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
5:8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one."

The resulting passage is an explicit reference to the Trinity of Father, Son and Holy Spirit, and for this reason some Christians are resistant to the elimination of the Comma from modern Biblical translations. Nonetheless, nearly all recent translations have removed this clause, as it does not appear in older copies of the Epistle and it is not present in the passage as quoted by any of the early Church Fathers, who would have had plenty of reason to quote it in their Trinitarian debates (for example, with the Arians), had it existed then. Most Churches now agree that the theology contained in the Comma is true, but that the Comma is not an original part of the Epistle of John.

See => http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comma_Johanneum

@davydylan
Also reconcile this with your wishy-washy theology

Romans 3:31 => Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law

imhotep:

Stop wallowing in biblical ignorance. Have you ever heard about the Comma Johanneum ==>

What is that supposed to teach us?
You cry about me wallowing in biblical ignorance and then promptly proceed to use extra-biblical rubbish to explain it? A comma to explain the scriptures? totally laughable. Imhotep clear space make i see road, dont have time for modern day pharisees.

imhotep:

@davydylan
Also reconcile this with your wishy-washy theology

Romans 3:31 => Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law

You have merely behaved like the muslims, attempt to wangle ur way through with another isolated, misquoted bible verse.
We are saved by grace not by the law, Christ said He came not to abolish the law but to fulfill it.

Let me provide an example - why did Christ heal on the sabbath day?
Why did He allow His disciples to eat with unwashen hands?

Was He not nullifying the law?

Rubbish! You have people who cant connect dots spouting unbiblical thrash.

davidylan:

What is that supposed to teach us?
You cry about me wallowing in biblical ignorance and then promptly proceed to use extra-biblical rubbish to explain it? A comma to explain the scriptures? totally laughable. Imhotep clear space make i see road, don't have time for modern day pharisees.

It appears the passage you used to defend the Trinity was smuggled into the bible some time in 1522. Ouch!!! There goes your Trinity!!

davidylan:

You have merely behaved like the muslims, attempt to wangle your way through with another isolated, misquoted bible verse.
We are saved by grace not by the law, Christ said He came not to abolish the law but to fulfill it.

Let me provide an example - why did Christ heal on the sabbath day?
Why did He allow His disciples to eat with unwashen hands?

Was He not nullifying the law?

Rubbish! You have people who can't connect dots spouting unbiblical thrash.

Really?
Stop dodging and interpret this =>


Romans 3:31 => Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law

imhotep:

It appears the passage you used to defend the Trinity was smuggled into the bible some time in 1522. Ouch!!! There goes your Trinity!!

You've done a lot of learning from the muslims. kudos. What else is corrupt in the bible you want to tell us? Is it any surprise that the many sites talking about the "lie" of I john 1:7 are mainly islamic? What a two-faced religion these catholicism is.

imhotep:

Really?
Stop dodging and interpret this =>


Romans 3:31 => Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law

Dodging? I reserve that verb to you and Lady.

I brought up 2 cogent examples - Why did Christ heal on the sabbath? Why did He permit His disciples to eat with unwashen hands? Was He also nullifying the law?

Answer those two and i'd be more than ready to oblige you with my response to Romans 3:31. Biblical illiterates like you shld not be allowed to get away with making noise.

davidylan:

You've done a lot of learning from the muslims. kudos. What else is corrupt in the bible you want to tell us?

The word TRINITY is still not in the bible.

davidylan:

Dodging? I reserve that verb to you and Lady.

I brought up 2 cogent examples - Why did Christ heal on the sabbath? Why did He permit His disciples to eat with unwashen hands? Was He also nullifying the law?

Answer those two and i'd be more than ready to oblige you with my response to Romans 3:31. Biblical illiterates like you shld not be allowed to get away with making noise.

Artful dodger.

I repost =>
Romans 3:31 => Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law

imhotep:

The word TRINITY is still not in the bible.

Neither is the word penance or purgatory . . . would you also assume they dont exist?

imhotep:

Artful dodger.

I repost =>
Romans 3:31 => Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law

There's no artful dodging, infact my fingers are itching to respond . . . BUT if you claim that Paul is saying that the law is as important isnt it rational that we first ask WHY Christ Himself seemed to "nullify" the law by healing on the sabbath day?

The same Paul in Galatians 2 rebuked Peter for trying to dissociate himself from those not of the circumcision (according to the law, Peter was right not so?) . . . why didnt Peter challenge him? Was Paul contradicting himself here?

Those are important questions to consider FIRST before posting isolated, misquoted, poorly understood verses!

davidylan:

Neither is the word penance or purgatory . . . would you also assume they don't exist?

Very Good. Now, deny the TRINITY as you have denied purgatory and the rest. You need consistency here.

davidylan:

There's no artful dodging, infact my fingers are itching to respond . . . BUT if you claim that Paul is saying that the law is as important isnt it rational that we first ask WHY Christ Himself seemed to "nullify" the law by healing on the sabbath day?

Good. Does this mean that Paul is contradicting Christ himself??

davidylan:

The same Paul in Galatians 2 rebuked Peter for trying to dissociate himself from those not of the circumcision (according to the law, Peter was right not so?) . . . why didnt Peter challenge him? Was Paul contradicting himself here?

Good. Now you are asking the right questions.

You also need to ask why James was very blunt in his treatment of this faith/works issue =>

James 2:20 => "Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless?"

Also consider these words of Paul to the Corinthians, most of whom had 'faith' =>

1 Corinthians 6:9 - 10
Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.


====================
Happy thinking.

imhotep:

Very Good. Now, deny the TRINITY as you have denied purgatory and the rest. You need consistency here.

John 10:30 I and the Father are one.

Now show us purgatory and penance in the bible.

imhotep:

Good. Does this mean that Paul is contradicting Christ himself??

nope, it simply means you dont understand Paul's point. I notice you artfully dodged the two examples of Christ that i gave . . . does this imply Christ Himself disrespected the law?

imhotep:

You also need to ask why James was very blunt in his treatment of this faith/works issue =>

James 2:20 => "Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless?"

Be coherent, from the law suddenly we jump to works? James treatise on works and faith is not confusing, it is impossible to be saved (have faith) and not manifest the fruits of the Spirit (works) - Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

imhotep:

Also consider these words of Paul to the Corinthians, most of whom had 'faith' =>

1 Corinthians 6:9 - 10
Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Another 180 degree shift? I John 1: 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness

Not much thinking there really.

davidylan:

John 10:30 I and the Father are one.

Now show us purgatory and penance in the bible.

You forgot to mention the Holy Spirit. TRINITY is still not in the bible.

davidylan:

nope, it simply means you don't understand Paul's point. I notice you artfully dodged the two examples of Christ that i gave . . . does this imply Christ Himself disrespected the law?

More for you to think about:

James 2: 26 => For just as a body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead

davidylan:

Be coherent, from the law suddenly we jump to works? James treatise on works and faith is not confusing, it is impossible to be saved (have faith) and not manifest the fruits of the Spirit (works) - Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

Paul was not trying to explain James' doctrine in his epistle to the Galatians. James' letter does not need Paul for interpretation

James 2: 21 - 24
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?
22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by the works.
23 Thus the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," and he was called "the friend of God."
24 See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.

davidylan:

Another 180 degree shift? I John 1: 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness

Not much thinking there really.

1 John 3: 4 - 10
4 Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness.
5 You know that He appeared in order to take away sins; and in Him there is no sin.
6 No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him.
7 Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous;
8 the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil.
9 No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.

imhotep:

You forgot to mention the Holy Spirit. TRINITY is still not in the bible.

John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

John 10:30 I and the Father are one.

imhotep:

More for you to think about:

James 2: 26 => For just as a body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead
Paul was not trying to explain James' doctrine in his epistle to the Galatians. James' letter does not need Paul for interpretation

James 2: 21 - 24
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?
22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by the works.
23 Thus the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," and he was called "the friend of God."
24 See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Paul was certainly not explaining James' doctrine, it doesnt take a genius to realise both were essentially passing across the SAME message in different words. What makes the bible unique (except to spiritually blind people actively seeking holes) is that each verse depends on a cloud of witnesses from other verses to explain each other. To attempt to take one verse in isolation is the favorite past time of islamists and christians who dont understand the scriptures.

- Look at the passages you quote from James, one thing leaps out . . . FAITH is the crucial common denominator. Without it there is NO works at all! Abraham had already exhibited FAITH in moving out from Ur to a place he knew not of before his faith was tested by his works . . . Haran or Nahor must have made similar sacrifices to their idols too . . . was it counted to them for works?

It is ridiculous that you attempt to separate "works" from the fruits of the Spirit . . . Phil 2: 12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

imhotep:

1 John 3: 4 - 10
4 Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness.
5 You know that He appeared in order to take away sins; and in Him there is no sin.
6 No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him.
7 Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous;
8 the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil.
9 No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.

1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

davidylan:

John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

John 10:30 I and the Father are one.

Bros, No mention of TRINITY.

davidylan:

Paul was certainly not explaining James' doctrine,

Paul may never have seen the letter of James.

davidylan:

it doesnt take a genius to realise both were essentially passing across the SAME message in different words. What makes the bible unique (except to spiritually blind people actively seeking holes) is that each verse depends on a cloud of witnesses from other verses to explain each other. To attempt to take one verse in isolation is the favorite past time of islamists and christians who don't understand the scriptures.

- Look at the passages you quote from James, one thing leaps out . . . FAITH is the crucial common denominator. Without it there is NO works at all! Abraham had already exhibited FAITH in moving out from your to a place he knew not of before his faith was tested by his works . . . Haran or Nahor must have made similar sacrifices to their idols too . . . was it counted to them for works?

It is ridiculous that you attempt to separate "works" from the fruits of the Spirit . . . Phil 2: 12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Colossians 3:5 => Put to death, then, the parts of you that are earthly: immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and the greed that is idolatry.

why put anything to death when we exercise FAITH??

imhotep:

Bros, No mention of TRINITY.

Because English didnt exist then. Those 2 verses i quoted say one thing - The Father is one with the Son and the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father. . . anyone with half a brain can understand that.
That is my final word on it . . . he that hath ears to hear . . .

by the way i havent seen ANYTHING from you about penance or purgatory in the bible.

imhotep:

Paul may never have seen the letter of James.

He didnt need to. Isaiah prophesied the coming of Christ, He never saw the book of Matthew.

imhotep:

Colossians 3:5 => Put to death, then, the parts of you that are earthly: immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and the greed that is idolatry.

why put anything to death when we exercise FAITH??

Silly question. Being a christian does not mean there are no temptations . . . why does the bible say to flee all appearance of the devil? As a Christian you still have a daily struggle with the flesh . . . Read about apostle Paul's struggle in Romans 7.
Peter, the same man who by the Holy Ghost declared that Christ was the Son of the living God denied Christ 3 times . . . had he no faith?

davidylan:

Because English didnt exist then. Those 2 verses i quoted say one thing - The Father is one with the Son and the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father. . . anyone with half a brain can understand that.
That is my final word on it . . . he that hath ears to hear . . .

This is YOUR personal opinion.

davidylan:

by the way i havent seen ANYTHING from you about penance or purgatory in the bible.

Neither have I seen anything tangible on the TRINITY.

davidylan:

He didnt need to. Isaiah prophesied the coming of Christ, He never saw the book of Matthew.

But we were not talking about Isaiah and Jesus!!

davidylan:

Silly question. Being a christian does not mean there are no temptations . . . why does the bible say to flee all appearance of the devil? As a Christian you still have a daily struggle with the flesh . . . Read about apostle Paul's struggle in Romans 7.
Peter, the same man who by the Holy Ghost declared that Christ was the Son of the living God denied Christ 3 times . . . had he no faith?

More for you to think about

James 2: 14 => What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?

Hmm. 4Him/Lady/Imhotep

Well done. You guys don't have to divide yourselves concerning religion.

Chapter 52 SIGNS OF THE JUDGEMENT DAY


The judgment day of God will be so dreadful that, truly I say to you, the reprobates would sooner choose ten hells than go to hear God speak in wrath against them against whom all things created will witness. Truly I say to you, that not alone shall the reprobates fear, but the saints and the elect of God, so that Abraham shall not trust in his righteousness, and Job shall have no confidence in his innocence. And what say I? Even the Messenger of God shall fear, for that God, to make known his majesty, shall deprive his Messenger of memory, so that he shall have no remembrance how that God has given him all things. Truly I say to you that, speaking from the heart, I tremble because by the world I shall be called God, and for this I shall have to render an account.

As God lives, in whose presence my soul stands, I am a mortal man as other men are, for although God has placed me as prophet over the House of Israel for the health of the feeble and the correction of sinners, I am the servant of God, and of this you are witness, how I speak against those wicked men who after my departure from the world shall annul the truth of my gospel by the operation of Satan. But I shall return towards the end, and with me shall come Enoch and Elijah, and we will testify against the wicked, whose end shall be accursed."

And having thus spoken, Jesus shed tears, whereat his disciples wept aloud, and lifted their voices, saying: "Pardon O Lord God, and have mercy on your innocent servant." Jesus answered: "Amen, Amen.