Image123:

You cannot say Paul did not preach repentance, here is Paul below preaching repentance.
Act 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
He said God is commanding all men everywhere to repent. Jesus said repentance should be preached.
Luk 24:47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
Paul was giving a summary of his mission work to King Agrippa, hear what he said.
Act 26:19 Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision:
Act 26:20 But showed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judea, and then to the Gentiles, that THAT THEY SHOULD REPENT and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.
Here is his summary to some church leaders below
Act 20:20 And how I kept back nothing that was profitable unto you, but have showed you, and have taught you publicly, and from house to house,
Act 20:21 Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, REPENTANCE toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.

I can actually say Paul did not preach repent. Like I said repentance is of the Jews not of the gentile. In the book of Acts Paul was speaking with his co-jewish people, when he is referring to gentiles, he would say believe or faith or trust. In all his epistles you can't find the word repentance but belief.

Rom 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

Note the bracket of verse 13-15. from verse 12, It will read For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel. .
There is a day of judgement coming, that God has set aside to judge man. Whatever we are doing today has consequences. As many as have sinned(with or without law) will be judged IN THE DAY. This is a message included in the gospel. The gospel is not only God will heal you and prosper you. According to the gospel, in the gospel, God will judge. There will be punishment for sinners. Paul also says it is my gospel, that is the gospel that he preached. Followers of paul and of his epistles should remember the full content of the gospel. So far, we have seen that it contains repentance, faith/belief, the wrath of God and judgement. this is just two chapters, the other passages reveal the full content of the gospel, lets ensure not to be lopsided.

Rom 2:17 Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God,

In this verse, Paul clearly addresses a Jew. This shows that there were people of jewish descent among those he wrote to. paul was not a man known for speaking into the air. Also, it is not far fetched that there would have been jews in the church at Rome. Its like having any of our nigerian denominations in another country, it would most likely have nigerians as members, most likely be started by a nigerian, who would have family and friends also in the church. Its the same way christianity initially started from Israel, it was usually the jews who it was first presented to and accepted it in other lands. Now, Jews had and some still have this superior notion of themselves as being a special people, of sort of purer blood, children of Abraham etc. it is common for a jew to wake up in the morning and thank God for being a Jew. It might not be that common to us to thank God for being a Nigerian or even some other developed country, but the Jews are brought up that way, witha sense of looking down on other races as unclean and not on their level. They pride themselves in that, make a boast of having the true God, having the law i.e genesis to Revelation.
Deu 14:2 For thou art a holy people unto the LORD thy God, and the LORD hath chosen thee to be a peculiar people unto himself, above all the nations that are upon the earth.
Psa 135:4 For the LORD hath chosen Jacob unto himself, and Israel for his peculiar treasure.

Rom 2:18 And knowest his will, and approvest the things that are more excellent, being instructed out of the law;

Paul then says, the Jews know God's will. Not God's former will, but God's will. How? By being instructed out of the law. God's will is revealed in His Word. the problem in the Old testament era was that they were not able to do the will of God, not that they didn't know the will of God. Paul said that the Jews approved the things that ARE more excellent. They approved and distinguished the best. They were not ignorant. Paul gave them that one. They know God's will, and approve of it. God's will is more excellent. And it is found in the law i.e Genesis to malachi.

Rom 2:19 And art confident that thou thyself art a guide of the blind, a light of them which are in darkness,
Rom 2:20 An instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast the form of knowledge and of the truth in the law.

The Jews were confident in this knowledge and approval, and in their jewish status. they were not confident in God but in themselves. They had the form of knowledge and of the truth in the law. Paul would later denigrate such confidence in knowledge and in self. But never the law, instead he talks of the truth in the law.

Rom 2:21 Thou therefore which teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? thou that preachest a man should not steal, dost thou steal?
Rom 2:22 Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege?
Rom 2:23 Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonorest thou God?

Here is their error, they were not practicing the good thing that they preached. the good thing was not the error, but that they did not practice it. They could not practice it on their own BTW. that was a major issue in the old testament. The messages were more of Thus says the Lord. the Lord said. Their own lives were not exemplary to be followed. They mainly came with more messages and messages from God. But in the new testament, there were examples to follow. There is a conscious "follow me" both from Christ and His disciples. they testified of their own lives. They could boldly say "do as i do".
1Th 5:15 See that none render evil for evil unto any man; but ever follow that which is good, both among yourselves, and to all men.
2Th 3:7 For yourselves know how ye ought to follow us: for we behaved not ourselves disorderly among you;
2Th 3:9 Not because we have not power, but to make ourselves an example unto you to follow us.
Heb 13:7 Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.
3Jo 1:11 Beloved, follow not that which is evil, but that which is good. He that doeth good is of God: but he that doeth evil hath not seen God.

Rom 2:24 For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.

Here again is another verse showing that there were jews in the Roman church. Here also is another quote from the law to buttress his point. God's name is blasphemed when we do not practice what we preach, ven if we are preaching the truth, and most excellent things.

Rom 2:25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.
Rom 2:26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?

IF the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, IF. That is almost impossible. Even the jews themselves could not keep it.
Joh 7:19 Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law? Why go ye about to kill me?
It was actually impossible as the law was given to show/prove to man that he could not keep it.
Gala 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
(CEV) What is the use of the Law? It was given later to show that we sin. But it was only supposed to last until the coming of that descendant who was given the promise. In fact, angels gave the Law to Moses, and he gave it to the people.

Rom 2:27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfill the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?

Paul shows that circumcision does not make the jew fulfill the law any more than the uncircumcision. Their being lettered or knowledgeable in the law did not help them either. If by any chance in a billion, the uncircumcised fulfill the law, it judges the circumcised who thinks he is at a vantage point.

Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Here is the sucker punch as it were. A jew might actually be a fake jew. Having a horizontal tribal marks on the cheeks is not full proof that you are yoruba. Even speaking the language is no proof. All that is outward and can be replicated by anyone who really wants to. the real proof is in the blood, inward. In the gene and geneology as it were. It is in something unseen as the heart and spirit. At this point, all the boasting and pride of the average jew is watered down and weakened.

Summary of chapter 1, gentiles are sinners
Summary of chapter 2, Jews are sinners
chapter 3 please....

@Image123,
Weldone.

Rom 3:1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?

The first two chapters, particularly the second chapter has downplayed the Jews and their practices. This is important really in realising that they have a fault. Sometimes, it is possible to be wrong and not know until someone else comes along to show you. Man was wrong from Adam, but like Adam refused to accept that he was wrong, so also would any man initially refuse. The jews had built themselves over the years and centuries on a system of righteousness, not God's righteousness but righteousness nonetheless. Even Jewish christians still found it so hard to see others as their equal. The jews had the best God and the best laws as it were, they were the envy of other nations, a peculiar people even till date. If a non-jew wanted to worship the jew's God(Jehovah, who is the only true God), he had to be circumcised, and then follow the jews. Such person became a proselyte.
Deu 4:8 And what nation is there so great, that hath statutes and judgments so righteous as all this law, which I set before you this day?
Even as a proselyte, there was the outer part of the temple, the court of the gentiles where the circumcised gentiles could stay, they could proceed no further. This was where the porch was located, where the early christians met as christian gentiles could not come into the main temple.
Act 5:12 And by the hands of the apostles were many signs and wonders wrought among the people; (and they were all with one accord in Solomon's porch.
1Ki 6:3 And the porch before the temple of the house, twenty cubits was the length thereof, according to the breadth of the house; and ten cubits was the breadth thereof before the house.
2Ch 3:4 And the porch that was in the front of the house, the length of it was according to the breadth of the house, twenty cubits, and the height was a hundred and twenty: and he overlaid it within with pure gold.
Mat 26:71 And when he was gone out into the porch, another maid saw him, and said unto them that were there, This fellow was also with Jesus of Nazareth.
Mar 14:68 But he denied, saying, I know not, neither understand I what thou sayest. And he went out into the porch; and the cock crew.
It was an ingrained culture and history, hence the gentiles found it easier to accept that they were sinners than the jews. The apostles had to bring them to reality with passages like chapter 1 and 2 before then giving the cure/way to salvation.
cf 1Jo 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1Jo 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
Jam 3:2 For in many things we offend all. If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body.

Like they say, someone who knows that he has problem has 50% solved already. This is the state that Paul was bringing his readers to, both jews and gentiles, but it is not a state to remain in forever or for long as some choose.

Rom 3:2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.

Lest he be misunderstood into saying that the law and circumcision is useless, and that the jews had no advantage all the while, he quickly comes in to balance up things as it were. Unfortunately, misunderstanding and offences are inevitable, even towards God.
So, he says circumcision and being a jew is an advantage in EVERY WAY. CEV says " It is good in a lot of ways", Weymouth New Testament says "The privilege is great from every point of view.", God's Word translation says " There are all kinds of advantages." So, whatever else you may read or have read, know today that circumcision and being a jew are of profit and superiority from EVERY POINT OF VIEW. He then begins to list some of his reasons, chief/most importanat being that the oracles of God(the Bible) was committed to them. 66 books, and God chose only jews to write them through a long span of more than 1000years. Not one Greek, or Egyptian, or babylonian, or wise man from the east, or American, or Nigerian. 66-0 is a major scoreline in any game, it means khaki no bi leather.

Rom 3:3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?
Rom 3:4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

Some of them did not believe, not all. obviously, Paul believed and he was a jew. So also were the 12 disciples, and many of the 3000 in Acts of the apostles on the day of pentecost. But the majority did not believe. Did their unbelief make the faith of God without effect? No, God FORBID as the passage states. The faith of God continued to work but not in their lives.
Isa 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.
Nobody can stop God from His ultimate aim, and purposes. One can only hurt oneself. The faith of God continued to work, it did not return void or pointless. It went to others. The majority of the jews rejected it/Him. They hardened their hearts and were stiff-necked. They resisted the Holy Ghost. Jesus said they made the Word of God of no effect (Mark7v13). Whose loss? Theirs, not God's. the same Word, faith and Spirit went somewhere else(to gentiles mainly) to bear fruit, have effect. It says let God be true, but every man a liar. Such a fearful thing, the possibility of God being true and every man a liar. It means that if God's word says something, and every man, pastor, teacher, denomination, and translation say another thing, god is still true. Every man's disobedience does not change the verse.

Rom 3:5 But if our unrighteousness commend the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unrighteous who taketh vengeance? I (speak as a man)
Rom 3:6 God forbid: for then how shall God judge the world?

Notice the bracket 'i speak as a man'. Many times, God's Word is that way, speaking as a man, because the message is for man. What would be the use of speaking chinese to a yoruba man no matter the import of the message? What is the relevance of speaking angel's language to leaders of the UN? Except a dog is trained, there would be no use in speaking fluent grammar to it. In same fashion, God uses what we can comprehend to speak to us. There are things and terms a high tech scientist, or a university professor cannot say or use at home. It can cause something else. God is not unrighteous to take vengeance, to judge sin. Paul is re-affirming this. Many contemporary teachings and christians are not sure that a righteous God will take vengeance, the spirit that was in Paul is not in them. God will judge the world. paul has earlier said that there is a day for it. Rom 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel. Today, God is watching, and waiting for folks to repent. That is not all He can do. Some people want God to act if He is truly alive. How can this wicked act be, why should that wicked person be alive, etc. But God has set a day, that day. Like that fine joke implies, Jesus saves. He is saving it all, He will not forget. He will judge. God is watching.

Rom 3:7 For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?

If God's truth has more abounded through your lie, your cheating, your stealing, your sins. be assured that MUCH MORE His truth will MORE AND MORE abound through His righteousness in you. There is no excuse to sin.

Rom 3:8 And not rather, (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just.

Paul was slandered i.e false and malicious statements that damaged his reputation were made concerning him. Even so today, a christian might be slandered. Your teacher, pastor, member, wife, husband, self might be slandered. Always think of that posibbility before making rash decisions and comments. The end does not always justify the means. And there you have it AGAIN, whose damnation is just. i love jesus, i love Peter, i love Paul, they were not looking to be politically correct. on the other hand, they were not insulting, abusive, or full of bile and hate.

Rom 3:9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;

Just in case you did not get it, or somehow still managed to misunderstand the points been made, paul states again that the gentiles are NOT BETTER THAN the jews. No, in no wise, not at all. It has been PROVED before that both Jews and Gentiles have sinned. If anyone said he had not sinned, it is a lie.He is saying here that its not just what he has written that shows it, the Bible that they knew(genesis to malachi) proved it. Notice how the apostle often goes to the Bible(what we call Old Testament Bible) to defend, assert and approve what he is saying.

Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

He begins to show how it has been before proved that both jews and gentiles are all under sin. It is written is it. This is the fourth IT IS WRITTEN phrase in this epistle that contains sixteen.
There is none righteous, no, not one. That's the psalms. All men are corrupt by nature. this is the same point Jesus was driving home when he said there is none good but God. the man that came to Him thought there were some good men. Many also think same today. They say there are many good men that are not christians. Jesus and Paul and the scriptures say there is none good, no, not ONE. Who is saying the truth, who do you believe, who knows better?

Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

A quotation from the psalms, Isaiah and Hosea. No matter the many beautiful ways of the different religions, the conclusion from God is that there is none that understandeth, none that seeketh after God.

Rom 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

ALL gone out of the way. Exodus, the psalms, isaiah, Genesis and Ecclesiastes. Man was in the way in Adam, he was good and profitable in the garden of Eden. But he became unprofitable for God after the fall. Like a corrupt file in a computer, there is none that doeth good. It's corrupt whatever port one tries to collect it from. it's corrupt no matter how many times one duplicates it, or copy and paste it. it's corrupt no matter the size of file one adds to it. It is corrupt no matter the importance of the data in it. All gone out of the way, unprofitable, jew and gentile.

Rom 3:13 Their throat is an open sepulcher; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
Rom 3:14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
Rom 3:15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:
Rom 3:16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:
Rom 3:17 And the way of peace have they not known:
Rom 3:18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.

He goes ahead to quote other portions of scripture to buttress the point that ALL have sinned, jew and gentile. Inherent in this is that those verses are not referring to jews only, but to both jews and gentiles. The implication may be that the law was busy condemning both those that had it and those that did not have it. Ignorance is not an excuse for sin apparently.
Rom 2:12a For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law:
(CEV) Those people who don't know about God's Law will still be punished for what they do wrong.
(GW) Here's the reason: Whoever sins without having laws from God will still be condemned to destruction.
A sin by ignorance is a sin still.
Num 15:28 And the priest shall make an atonement for the soul that sinneth ignorantly, when he sinneth by ignorance before the LORD, to make an atonement for him; and it shall be forgiven him.
Perhaps thats why being without understanding is mentioned under all unrighteousness in chapter one. believers should grow in grace and in knowledge so that we are not punished for lack of knowledge. Do not hide but seek knowledge and sound teaching of God's Word. There are so many at least i'm born again, and you are not the only one going to Heaven christians today.
Pro 4:13 Take fast hold of instruction; let her not go: keep her; for she is thy life.
Pro 4:7 Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding.

Bro, where you are slightly missing it here is that Paul is not the only one talking here, It was a question and answer sort of message. The man that said 'I speak as a man' for example is not Paul. Check it again.

We can conclude now that -
Chapter 1-Gentiles not good
Chapter 2- Jews not good
Chapter 3-none is good, not one
Chapter 4 please- the Jews try to use God's promise to Abraham as a defence.

Good job bro---it gets tough from 4 though.

shdemidemi: Bro, where you are slightly missing it here is that Paul is not the only one talking here, It was a question and answer sort of message. The man that said 'I speak as a man' for example is not Paul. Check it again.

We can conclude now that -
Chapter 1-Gentiles not good
Chapter 2- Jews not good
Chapter 3-none is good, not one
Chapter 4 please- the Jews try to use God's promise to Abraham as a defence.

Good job bro---it gets tough from 4 though.

not yet finished with 3? Thanks for staying tuned

shdemidemi: Bro, where you are slightly missing it here is that Paul is not the only one talking here, It was a question and answer sort of message. The man that said 'I speak as a man' for example is not Paul. Check it again.

We can conclude now that -
Chapter 1-Gentiles not good
Chapter 2- Jews not good
Chapter 3-none is good, not one
Chapter 4 please- the Jews try to use God's promise to Abraham as a defence.

Good job bro---it gets tough from 4 though.

On your point about Paul not being the only one talking, its an unfounded claim. I'm aiming at making the thread as straight to the point as possible, without introduction of schemes, wild theories, and conjectures. Its not an issue as well, as the message in the passage is not lost whoever may be speaking, whether it is seven people or one. I'll be on the look out for subsequent passages that confirm your thought line though, thanks.

Image123:
On your point about Paul not being the only one talking, its an unfounded claim. I'm aiming at making the thread as straight to the point as possible, without introduction of schemes, wild theories, and conjectures. Its not an issue as well, as the message in the passage is not lost whoever may be speaking, whether it is seven people or one. I'll be on the look out for subsequent passages that confirm your thought line though, thanks.

3 What advantage, then, is there in being a Jew, or what value is there in circumcision? 2 Much in every way!

Look at the above question and the response that followed with the exclamation mark and other questions asked in this book. You might just understand what I am saying and it makes everything clearer.

In subsequent chapters, you would realise a question could be asked more than four times, even after the apostle explained it. Just look into it though, may God open our eyes of understanding.

shdemidemi:

3 What advantage, then, is there in being a Jew, or what value is there in circumcision? 2 Much in every way!

Look at the above question and the response that followed with the exclamation mark and other questions asked in this book. You might just understand what I am saying and it makes everything clearer.

In subsequent chapters, you would realise a question could be asked more than four times, even after the apostle explained it. Just look into it though, may God open our eyes of understanding.

A writer asking question and answering them is a persuasive style of writing not uncommon. It doesn't necessarily mean that more than one person is speaking. Nonetheless, no wahala, it doesn't change the message.
Even some expository form of writing use this technique. see the link for instance, note the problem and solution pattern.

http://www.stanford.edu/~arnetha/expowrite/info.html

Image123:
A writer asking question and answering them is a persuasive style of writing not uncommon. It doesn't necessarily mean that more than one person is speaking. Nonetheless, no wahala, it doesn't change the message.
Even some expository form of writing use this technique. see the link for instance, note the problem and solution pattern.

http://www.stanford.edu/~arnetha/expowrite/info.html

I understand what you mean, but see this part

6 So do you think we should continue sinning so that God will give us more and more grace? 2 Of course not! Our old sinful life ended. It’s dead. So how can we continue living in sin? 3[b] Did you forget[/b] that all of us became part of Christ Jesus when we were baptized? In our baptism we shared in his death

Check the tone at which he answered here, he also asked if they forgot what he told him. I am particular about this cos it makes it clearer, but if you don't see it in that light, its fine.

Image123:

As many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law. whether they are in billions or in tens. God is not lonely. He has an innumerable host of heaven. The whole earth and humanity is lighter than dust before God.Psa 62:9 and Isa 40:15. And as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law. God is the Judge of the whole earth, He is not afraid. Infact, looking at past judgements like the percentage of Israelites that came out of Egypt and entered Canaan. 2people out of more than 100,000 to be modest. this is like about 0.002%. Think about the percentage that survived the flood, 8people in allegedly the whole world. And being a God that does not change, He can do it again.
Heb 4:1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.

i have a question.what exactly is this verse saying?Romans 2:14 says the gentiles do not have the law, that is the law of Moses or the written law and this verse 12 says those who sin without the law will perish without the law and the Jews who are given the law and sinned under the law will be judged by the law.Are Gentile subject to the law of Moses that was given to the jews n will be used to judge them or what? Thank you sir.

flourishG: i have a question.what exactly is this verse saying?Romans 2:14 says the gentiles do not have the law, that is the law of Moses or the written law and this verse 12 says those who sin without the law will perish without the law and the Jews who are given the law and sinned under the law will be judged by the law.Are Gentile subject to the law of Moses that was given to the jews n will be used to judge them or what? Thank you sir.

this does not mean they are saved without the law, it simply means they have a conscience to do what is morally right as well.

shdemidemi:

this does not mean they are saved without the law, it simply means they have a conscience to do what is morally right as well.

no, am asking this because our brothers n sisters (many Christians) who still subject themselves to da law of Moses, will they be "judged" by the law of Moses since the law of Moses was only given to da Jews?

flourishG: i have a question.what exactly is this verse saying?Romans 2:14 says the gentiles do not have the law, that is the law of Moses or the written law and this verse 12 says those who sin without the law will perish without the law and the Jews who are given the law and sinned under the law will be judged by the law.Are Gentile subject to the law of Moses that was given to the jews n will be used to judge them or what? Thank you sir.

I'll respond to this soon, thanks.

flourishG: no, am asking this because our brothers n sisters (many Christians) who still subject themselves to da law of Moses, will they be "judged" by the law of Moses since the law of Moses was only given to da Jews?

Every gentile(non-jew) would be judged by the gospel Paul preached. The Jews have seven(a year is a thousand years) extra years after the church leave with Christ. They will live without grace at this time, the bible records that 144 000 of them would be eventually saved.

NB JEWISH individuals can come into Christ without the law, but God still deals with Israel as a nation, not as individuals.

flourishG: i have a question.what exactly is this verse saying?Romans 2:14 says the gentiles do not have the law, that is the law of Moses or the written law and this verse 12 says those who sin without the law will perish without the law and the Jews who are given the law and sinned under the law will be judged by the law.Are Gentile subject to the law of Moses that was given to the jews n will be used to judge them or what? Thank you sir.

Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

Rom 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
Now, romans 2v14 does not say that the gentiles do not have the law. Of course, some gentiles had the law. the Ethopian eunuch had the law and was reading it when Philip the evangelist met him. It appears that this gentile church that Paul was writing to had the law. They knew as it is/was written. There were gentiles who searched the law to see whether these things were so, there were gentiles who studied to show themselves approved. What the verse actually says is "For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law". It's a clause statement. Naturally, all jews are expected to have the law. but there are gentiles who do not have the law. Not all gentiles, though majority. Now, WHEN gentiles who do not have the law. This is a category. When the gentiles who do not have the law do A(by nature the things contained in the law), B(these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves) happens. that's what the verse says.
For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

Are gentiles subject to the law of Moses? Yes, they are subject to the law of God, as the transgression of the law is sin, and all have sinned. Are gentiles subject to the covenant of God with Israel, through Moses? No. except they want to be i.e prosylytes. Its like asking if illiterates are subject to the law of gravity. Or if atheists are subject to the law of giving(Give and it shall be given you, basically). They are both subject whether they know it or not. The physics student, and student of the Bible is equally subject and should know better and take most advantage.
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On judgement day, there will be a book of life to judge every man, whether jew or gentile.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Hope this answers your question.

Rom 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

Previous verses have tried showing us that all are guilty before God. All implies both jews and greeks/gentiles. All implies the whole world. There is none good, not one, they are all gone out of the way. What he is doing is trying to cut all open, as in an operation/surgery, before he then begins to restore health and wellness. the patient should not remain cut open, else he will die. that is not the aim of the surgery, just a process in it. Its not for anyone to hold on to such verses and say there is no hope, all have sinned, there is none good. It needed to be proved because some(Jews) held on to their works and self righteousness for salvation, while some(gentiles) held on to their ignorance for exoneration from judgement. It has earlier been established in chapter 2 that as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law will not be spared of judgement. Now, whatever the law is saying, is to make the whole world guilty before God. Those who were under the law thought they were safe there, but Paul is saying we know that they are not safe, they are guilty before God, ALL the world is guilty, not just those under the law.

Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

No flesh, nobody is justified by the deeds of the law. Remember that he had earlier said Rom 2:13 but the doers of the law shall be justified. Sounds funny right? The scenerio is one of a man telling God that he can fly. Then God says i will justify you anytime you fly. Of course, God knows you cannot fly, its not in you. But He puts out that condition as you said that you can fly. man has said from Adam "I am okay", "I didn't do wrong, it was the woman that you gave me, it was the serpent, not me" Pro 20:6 Most men will proclaim every one his own goodness: but a faithful man who can find? But Jesus said "None of you keepeth the law". Many of them were still telling John the beloved that they had no sin. John said they were lying and deceiving themselves. So God gave man something(the law), to teach him that he has sinned. In the hope/aim that man will realise his inability and failure, and come back to Him penitently and trusting Him. But no, not man, most men. Never say never is it. Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight, because actually, no man can/has fulfill(ed) the deeds of the law.

Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

But NOW, at this time, a new covenant, a new agreement. There is a new covenant, some folks are still in the old agreement. They are trying to keep the law SO THAT they can be justified and accepted by God. Wake up, there is a new arrangement and agreement NOW. An agreement where the righteousness of God is manifested without the law! Where one is justified without the law. What a gift, almost unbelievable. The righteousness of God is manifested without the law. the righteousness of God without the law is manifested. You do not have to obey the whole law(which was the impossible clause given) to be justified. Justification has come through another means/road/way/arrangement/agreement/covenant.

Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

This new way is by faith. The righteousness of God, without the law, not using the law, but by faith. that is, one can get the righteousness of God by faith. By the faith of Jesus, that is faith in Jesus Christ. Not just being positive, or believing in one's self. God's righteousness is by faith/believing in Jesus Christ. We are justified before God by believing in Jesus Christ. This righteousness of God is unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference. There is no special righteousness for any tribe or group, the righteousness of God is upon ALL and UNTO all that believe. This is so clear and straight forward it should be a miracle of some sort to miss it. It says there is no difference(Rom 10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him ) God has joined them together as regards righteousness and justification, let not man, and let no man put them asunder.

Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

There is no difference, ALL have sinned. There is no difference for/because all have sinned. That is what has been proved/shown from chapter 1 to 3. ALL have sinned. Its so important in the steps to salvation and forgiveness of sins to realise, acknowledge, and accept that you have sinned. It is a lesson/class/test that you cannot skip. Its like the entrance exam. the sinner needs to understand and accept that he has sinned, and come short of God's glory. Many sinners today are more concerned about whether others have sinned, not themselves. they are more interested in proving that so so person is a sinner, they are hypocrites, they are corrupt, pastors are thieves, God is wicked. these are the things the sinner is spending his life in and filling up his senses with. The one thing, the real lesson to be learnt, the answer to the question, the realization "I am guilty, Lord have mercy on me" is sadly missing. They are rather interested in proving how they are better than folks around, and than even God.

Rom 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

We are justified FREELY. It is a gift. We are justified without having to fulfill the law. that's like bigger than the jackpot of all jackpot. FREELY! In the old covenant/agreement, you had to fulfill the law to be justified. In the new testament, the horse is put before the cart as it were. You are justified without having fulfilled the law. You have/possess the righteousness of God without the law. This justification is not premised/based/founded on the works of the law, but on grace and on faith. Grace is simply God's help(not to confuse ourselves needlessly on theology). We are justified freely by His grace. We are justified freely by God's help. We are justified freely by faith. 300years of personal effort could not have done it. Man had the law for more than 1000years and could not achieve it. Justification takes God's help, grace. With God, all things are indeed possible. This grace came THROUGH the redemption that is in Jesus. REDEMPTION, pretty big word in theology BTW. Paul just threw it in here like we all understand it. Well, redemption is what happened on the cross of calvary. God's purpose of giving us the epistles and books is to explain to us the significance of what transpired in the gospels. You think you would, but it would be very hard to understand what transpired in the gospels without reading the epistles. It would just be another cute touching story, of an innocent miracle man that was wrongfully killed, and who miraculously rose again. All the stuff penned in the epistles, which was likely common knowledge to first century christians, seeing the way Paul mentions it almost passively and for granted, All the stuff, understanding and significance may have been lost over time to future generations. Imagine just having the story of how Jesus lived. But the epistles and writings of the apostles have been used by the Holy Ghost to bring us to clearer relevance of the significance and impact.
Redemption is buying back. To pay off a debt, to make up for, to atone. Man, Adam to be precise had sold off, given up/off, relinquished the ownership, the dominion God gave him on earth. He gave it to the ruler and prince of this world, satan. So, Jesus had to BUY it back legally from the devil. Most importantly, and of more present importance, Jesus had to suffer for sins. He suffering for sin on man's behalf, gave us the option to key into His payment. Therefore, our justification, the righteousness of God we receive is premised on God's grace through the payment Christ made.

Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

Trust me, i do not also like big grammar. But really, what Jesus did for us was big big thing. god has set forth Jesus as our sacrifice, our scape-goat as it were, our atonement. He takes our place THROUGH FAITH IN HIS sacrifice/blood. Meaning that the only way Jesus can take your place is through faith, if you have faith or believe that He did. Jesus has taken the place, and borne the sins and punishment, atoned for the whole world, however each individual can only access this atonement by faith. Without faith, it is impossible to please God. you need faith to be justified. No wonder, the just shall live by faith. All you need to do is believe. God's part is the big big deal. that is His help/grace, sending His Son, making Him a propitiation, going through crucifixion, redemption, justification and all other ions. Then, He comes and says, your part is Only believe. Billions are so lazy they would not even play that part. Its so simple, its unbelieveable. Its so free its passing understanding. Its infinite grace. God has set forth Jesus as propitiation, placating, and pacifying for our sins. but this only gets to happen THROUGH faith in His blood. To declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God. To declare God's righteousness for the sins that are past.

Rom 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

To declare AT THIS TIME God's righteousness. God says there is time for everything. break time is not work time or lecture time. Lecture time is not holiday or sleep time. We ought to know the time we are in. AT THIS TIME, God's righteousness is to be declared, everywhere. There was a time when God's righteousness was a dream, at this time it is reality. It is wrong to declare God's righteousness as a dream AT THIS TIME. There was a time when all you could hear of God was in Jerusalem. Jesus spoke of THIS TIME when one would not need to go to Jerusalem. To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness. He is the Justifier of him that believes in Jesus, whosoever, whether Jew or Gentile.

Rom 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

There is no boasting as all we have to do is have faith, and anybody can have faith. Nobody boasts of breathing for instance. You don't have to be rich, or be a man, or a Jew, or educated, or know somebody in the government. Boasting is excluded, justification is God's gift that we receive by faith. Paul introduces something here, he tells us that the law the law the law is not just and always about Moses. There is a law of faith for instance as this verse shows. there is a law of sin and death.

Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

The conclusion and the summary of all that has been said is that man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. to be justified is to be just, made just. Righteoused, if there is a word like that.

Rom 3:29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:
Rom 3:30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

The apostle has made a conscious and several investment of telling us that Jews and Gentiles are together. It is one God and one people. It is what God has joined together AT THIS TIME. It is what God has cleansed, not to be called unclean. There is no "we are better than them" or "our righteousness is better, or gospel is better". No. The OT God is not different from the NT God. Seeing it is ONE GOD, it is the same God justifying both the circumcision and the uncircumcision BY FAITH.

Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

(GNB) Does this mean that by this faith we do away with the Law? No, not at all; instead, we uphold the Law.
(CEV) Do we destroy the Law by our faith? Not at all! We make it even more powerful.
(ISV) Do we, then, abolish the law by this faith? Of course not! Instead, we uphold the law.
(LITV) Then is the Law annulled through faith? Let it not be! But we establish Law.
(YLT) Law then do we make useless through the faith? let it not be! yea, we do establish law.
(Message) But by shifting our focus from what we do to what God does, don't we cancel out all our careful keeping of the rules and ways God commanded? Not at all. What happens, in fact, is that by putting that entire way of life in its proper place, we confirm it.
(Living Bible)Well then, if we are saved by faith, does this mean that we no longer need obey God's laws? Just the opposite! In fact, only when we trust Jesus can we truly obey him.

In a normal world, this should be enough for one to say "nuff said". The reality and plain truth in this verse is not believed by many folks. The new covenant and faith does not make God's laws useless or void. We are still to obey God. What is made useless is the old agreement/arrangement which was impossible by the way. Again, the old agreement/covenant/testament was to be justified by works of the law. Do all these laws and become righteous. Do all these and I will bless you. In the New Covenant, we have something better, something that ESTABLISHES the law. the law of God is more powerful, more authenticated, more important. Hebrews says it is even written not just in books and stones, but on the heart.

Nice one OP...

Just to add to your Romans 3:31
Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law people get confused by this particular verse-

When the scripture say that you're not under Law, but strictly by faith + nothing, does that mean you throw the Law out to the wind? No! When we get to Romans Chapter 13 Paul is going to say just as plain as English can make it. "That when we love our neighbor, as a believer, of course, then we fulfill the Law." We don't cast it out. And I've always put it this way: can you love someone and break any of those commandments against him? It's impossible. And so love is the fulfilling of the Law

still following this thread because only by this book will many be delivered to serve christ alone.where art thou da OP?

When a chief judaizers comes online to give an expose on Romans, you should not expect anything less.

And here is Image123 expose on my signature verse:

Rom 3:28

Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

The conclusion and the summary of all that has been said is that man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. to be justified is to be just, made just. Righteoused, if there is a word like that.

Can he say any less. Two lines on such a mighty scripture. As much as I espouse the doctrine of grace, I count myself inadequate to do an expose on Romans. That book is too lofty for any careless work on it like I am seeing on this thread.

So far the bit I have read on Image's posting here is just to lend credence to the position of neo-judaizers like himself and that is that after grace, there are still laws for Christians to keep. Is that, for example, what Romans 3:28 is saying?

This work is not impressive at all.

DrummaBoy: When a chief judaizers comes online to give an expose on Romans, you should not expect anything less.

And here is Image123 expose on my signature verse:




Can he say any less. Two lines on such a mighty scripture. As much as I espouse the doctrine of grace, I count myself inadequate to do an expose on Romans. That book is too lofty for any careless work on it like I am seeing on this thread.

So far the bit I have read on Image's posting here is just to lend credence to the position of neo-judaizers like himself and that is that after grace, there are still laws for Christians to keep. Is that, for example, what Romans 3:28 is saying?

This work is not impressive at all.

it's a conclusion duh. "We conclude". The points have already been made. i reiterate, this thread is not an expose or commentary. There are many great and wonderful commentaries out there please, you are not being coerced to read. The aim of the thread is stated in the OP, salient points.

Image123:
it's a conclusion duh. "We conclude". The points have already been made. i reiterate, this thread is not an expose or commentary. There are many great and wonderful commentaries out there please, you are not being coerced to read. The aim of the thread is stated in the OP, salient points.

what salient point have you made so far?if you can't give a concise 'salient' point then i don't think u shld be doing this.i'm just waiting until the start to get to the doctrinal verses n chapters if at all u gonna finish this though.romans isn't a book u just be stating salient point with da heavy stuffs in there.

I noticed the trend as well especially when image123 got to Romans1:16. Paul said he is not ashamed of the gospel for it is the power of God unto salvation to anyone who believe. His salient view of that was-

Image123:
Many preachers today are shy of preaching repentance, not Paul. The gospel is the power of God to salvation. The gospel is to anyone that believes. As seen in other scriptures, repentance and believing go hand in hand. One is not to be done without the other. If one believes without repentance(the gospel), there is no salvation. The gospel of Christ is God's power unto salvation to everyone that believes. If one repents without believing, there is also no salvation. It's like hydrogen and oxygen required in the appropriate proportion to produce water. Notice that Paul, who started in verse 1 with the gospel of God, now affirms it to be the gospel of Christ. Indeed the gospel of God is the gospel of His Son. Whatever belongs to the Father belongs to the Son, and they are seemlessly and interchangeably used in a way no other is/can be..

I do not see how believe and repent can be seen as synonymous as explained..

^
'believe' and 'repent' are not synonymous. Please read to understand.

Rom 4:1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?

What will we say that Abraham has found? Abraham is like a turning point for man, a friend of God.It was from Abraham that God started to deal with man continuously, by families, ancestrally, not just individually. It was with Abraham that God made a covenant of circumcision, a covenant Jews prided in. Paul is about to prove something essential to his audience, something that agreed with the teaching that justification is by faith. He is about to establish a relationship between Abraham and us, new covenant believers. His aim is not to show that Abraham had wasted his time or life, or that the jews had wasted their time or life. This verse along with other verses refer to Abraham as OUR father. Other verses confirm this,

Rom 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
Rom 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
Galat 3:7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
1Pe 3:6 Even as Sarah obeyed Abraham, calling him lord: whose daughters ye are, as long as ye do well, and are not afraid with any amazement.
So, Abraham is a father of believers, and we can claim heirloom to his blessings.
Gal 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
We claim this as brethren of Jesus Christ the son of Abraham.

Rom 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
Rom 4:3 For what saith the Scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

Notice that phrase "what saith the Scripture?". Not for the first time, Paul refers to the Old Testament as valid scripture that he leans on as proof that he is saying the right thing. In other places, he has used it is written.
Chapter 1, 2, and 3 has shown this, and he still uses that phrase in this chapter. To Paul, and other first century christians, Genesis to Revelation was scripture. It wasn't some obsolete stuff used by jews and judaizers. when Jesus said "Search the Scriptures", When Berean christians searched scriptures to validate messages(Acts17), we should have it in mind that they were hardly referring to Matthew to Revelation. All Believers were students of the scripture, and All Scripture remain, given by divine inspiration.
Now, if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. This verse or sentence should not be taken in isolation, else the message or point passed across might be missed. The christian lane is quite narrow, and one may easily be thrown off into extremism either to the left side or to the right side. To satan, all he wants is that you are thrown off, he hardly cares whether one is thrown to the left or to the right. What God wants is balance and moderation. The left and right ear give proper balance. If just one is functioning, one might lose balance, moderation is key. Two scriptures, Answer not a fool according to his folly, then Answer a fool according to his folly. Not a contradiction, but a balance. Abraham was justified by faith, Abraham was justified by works. Not a contradiction, but a balance.
Rom 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
Jam 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Some people only hear justified by faith, and bolt off. they fall into the error that whatever they do does not count not knowing that God will judge every man according to his works.
Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
Some people only hear justified by works, and bolt off. They fall into the error that good works will bribe God, not knowing that it is impossible to please God without faith.
Everything in life is like a recipe. The proper technique, prescription and procedure has to be followed to get good toast, or bread, or cake, or whatever. Justification by faith MUST come first, and MUST be followed by justification by works. Abraham was FIRST justified by faith, and then later justified by works. He believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. This is actually Genesis 15 quoted in verse 3.
Gen 15:6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.
This is far before the birth of Isaac. Later on after the birth and growth of Isaac, Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar. This is in Genesis 22. The faith must come first before the works. It is wrong to dwell on works without faith, like most jews. Our righteousness/works are just as filthy rags before God. It is not mixed with faith, or preceeded by faith. On the other hand too, it is wrong to dwell on faith without works because faith without works is dead. faith is supposed to produce works, good works. We are created through faith in Christ Jesus, unto that purpose, good works.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Its like a ladder, faith is prior step before good works. Paul affirms good works in other scriptures. here in Romans 4, he is laying a foundation. Foundation is not completion of the house. You can't put windows and furniture or electronics with foundation, though they are all needed in the house. The foundation is faith. People missed it by stopping at the foundation, and that is what James was correcting, when he wrote about faith without works being dead. And then he proved the importance of works by using examples from scriptures. Its not a contradiction, all you need is understanding what chapter of the novel, what part of the film, what class in the curriculum you are reading. Paul also spoke on the importance of good works in the christian life, so did Jesus.
2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.
Titus 2:7 In all things showing thyself a pattern of good works: in doctrine showing uncorruptness, gravity, sincerity,
Titus 3:14 And let ours also learn to maintain good works for necessary uses, that they be not unfruitful.
Heb 10:24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:

If Abraham came in with good works first, he would not have been justified before God. The faith justification came first.

Rom 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

To the person that works(in this context) to be initially justified, the reward is a debt paid by God. Of course, the backdrop of the previous chapters show us that no one can work i.e no one can be solely justified by works. The person that can work needs no grace or divine help. he can do it on his own. But there is none. Actually, Paul brings up the examples of two of the most respected men, Abraham and David. We know they both had their faults, and had to approach God, and actually be accepted having failed. David here talks of forgiveness as we will soon see. But the person who is not working but believing in God (in this context of initial justification, laying the foundation), his faith justifies him. Faith saves him. By grace, we are saved through faith. That is a paraphrase of these two verses. Not of works. This is salvation, this is foundation. Its not talking about all through the christian life. The christian is saved to show forth good works. Your good works glorify God if you are saved by grace through faith. Your good works are filthy rags before God if you are not yet saved or justified by faith. But once saved, you are created in Christ Jesus unto good works. Your light is to shine that others may see your good works and glorify God.

Rom 4:6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
Rom 4:7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
Rom 4:8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

Abraham and David are the fathers of Jesus as it were. They are our progenitors.
Mat 1:1 The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.
Like our fathers, we should tow the line of faith for justification, not the line of works. Our connection is through faith in the Lord Jesus and by grace. He quotes the Psalms in this case for support of what he is saying. The early christians spoke freely from the old testament bible. They were not sanctimoniously pushing it away like many do today.

Rom 4:9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.

Here is Paul, putting the pieces and threads together. He is tying up the Abraham and david experience into one. The blessedness, the justification is before the work (circumcision is the example of work in this instance).

Rom 4:10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.

This is already mentioned above. Abraham was initially justified before circumcision. Circumcision happened after, circumcision is Genesis 17, justification by faith, being 'righteoused' by believing happened in Genesis 15. So before the good works of circumcision and sacrifice of your Isaac, there should be justification by faith.

Rom 4:11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:

The good work of circumcision by Abraham is a seal on his justification by faith. Works are a seal on living faith. It is a dead faith that believes God without doing nothing. James says that the devils also believe and tremble. This point Paul has made weakens the position the jews had/have that they are superior because they are circumcised. He shows them that what they actually need first, is the foundation of faith. The just shall live by his faith.

Rom 4:12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.

Again, Abraham is not only father to the circumcision, the jews, but is also father to them who are yet uncircumcised, if they walk in the steps of that faith. We need to walk in the steps. This is the step Abraham walked, that David walked, and that Jesus Christ was. And we are called to follow His steps. He was the Son of David, the Son of Abraham. We should also be in the steps of faith.

Rom 4:13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

13 That famous promise God gave Abraham — that he and his children would possess the earth — was not given because of something Abraham did or would do. It was based on God's decision to put everything together for him, which Abraham then entered when he believed.
(from THE MESSAGE)

Again, here is another verse reminding us that we are not initially justified by the law. We are justified through faith. The promise was given before the law.

Rom 4:14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:

If the law is the way to justification i.e if keeping the law is the way to justification, faith is made void, the promise of God to Abraham is made useless, as a loophole has been found to justification as it were. And of course, nobody wants that, the jew does not want that, the non-jew does not want that. Thankfully, it is not that as well. We are heirs of the promise by faith, not by the law. To remind you, no one can fulfill the law to be heirs. Not Moses, not David, not even Elijah. Remember the previous chapter, there is none righteous etc.

Rom 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

The law brings punishment, whatever law. When laws are broken, there is punishment. The law generically brings punishment, not blessing. Because transgression is associated with it. Its not saying that people don't commit sin if they don't know Moses'laws. the verse is more general than that. People were sinning before Moses was born, whether they have Moses'laws or no. Bible says the sin of Sodom and Gomorrah was very grievous. There was sin also in the days of Noah. There was no law of Moses then.

Rom 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

There you have him again, Abraham the father of us all, both jews and gentiles. The promise is not sure to all of us if it is by law. Not everyone has the law, and nobody can even fulfill the law to save his life. But everyone has faith. God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith. Jesus said faith was so simple, it is only. Only believe. It is of faith to the end i.e to the goal that the promise might be sure to everybody.

Rom 4:17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

Here is the connection and proof that we are all included, jews and gentiles. Abraham ia a father of many nations, not just a father of the jews or Israel. A character of God is given as One who quickens the dead. Its in continuous tense. What God did before for Abraham and any other, He remains able to do and quicken in your life.

Rom 4:18 Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be.
Rom 4:19 And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about a hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sarah's womb:
Rom 4:20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
Rom 4:21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.

A pep talk on faith follows. Wonderful and refreshing, like water after the hard talk(s). The verses are straight enough and derived from the old testament Bible's account of a part of Abraham's living faith.

Rom 4:22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.

Not to bore you, it is repeated yet again that faith was imputed to Abraham for righteousness. It was credited to Abraham. A life of faith is what we are to live as children of God and of faithful Abraham. It is not enough to believe in Genesis 15, we continue believing God to the end. Faith is not only for salvation, we continue to believe unto the end. Many today believe God for salvation, but don't believe after, they are ruled by their senses and their works. No, faith does not stop. It continues to get credited to your account, imputed. Without faith, it is impossible to please God, not only at salvation or foundation or justification. faith is for life, the just shall live by his faith.

Rom 4:23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;
Rom 4:24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
Rom 4:25 Who was delivered for our offenses, and was raised again for our justification.

Paul says these things were not written for his sake alone. It is written for us also. Genesis 15 was written for us also. The whole of Genesis was written for us also. The whole of scriptures are written for us also. Some people take scriptures and say it was only written for a particular person or group or time. All scripture is profitable. They are our examples. They are not written for his sake alone, but for us also. Lets learn from this. Jesus Christ knew the scriptures were written for Him. He showed His followers the things that were written in all the Scriptures concerning Himself. We ought to follow in His steps. Paul talked of all scriptures to Timothy a gentile, the Bereans were gentiles who searched the scriptures. Jesus also said to search the scriptures. We should not allow anyone or any 'wisdom'to cheat us from having the totality of the scriptures. Jesus died(was delivered) for our sins, and resurrected for our justification. Without resurrection, we would not have being justified.

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Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

Rom 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
Now, romans 2v14 does not say that the gentiles do not have the law. Of course, some gentiles had the law. the Ethopian eunuch had the law and was reading it when Philip the evangelist met him. It appears that this gentile church that Paul was writing to had the law. They knew as it is/was written. There were gentiles who searched the law to see whether these things were so, there were gentiles who studied to show themselves approved. What the verse actually says is "For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law". It's a clause statement. Naturally, all jews are expected to have the law. but there are gentiles who do not have the law. Not all gentiles, though majority. Now, WHEN gentiles who do not have the law. This is a category. When the gentiles who do not have the law do A(by nature the things contained in the law), B(these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves) happens. that's what the verse says.
For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

Are gentiles subject to the law of Moses? Yes, they are subject to the law of God, as the transgression of the law is sin, and all have sinned. Are gentiles subject to the covenant of God with Israel, through Moses? No. except they want to be i.e prosylytes. Its like asking if illiterates are subject to the law of gravity. Or if atheists are subject to the law of giving(Give and it shall be given you, basically). They are both subject whether they know it or not. The physics student, and student of the Bible is equally subject and should know better and take most advantage.
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On judgement day, there will be a book of life to judge every man, whether jew or gentile.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Hope this answers your question.

My first question is- are you(the church) gonna be part of these people judged by works in the book of revelation?

Have this in mind when answering the question.

1 thess 4
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Image123: 2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

You did not answer my question bro.

shdemidemi:


You did not answer my question bro.

Then you may want to put it up in full perspective on a new thread, thanks.

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Rom 4:23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;
Rom 4:24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
Rom 4:25 Who was delivered for our offenses, and was raised again for our justification.
Paul says these things were not written for his sake alone. It is written for us also. Genesis 15 was written for us also. The whole of Genesis was written for us also. The whole of scriptures are written for us also. Some people take scriptures and say it was only written for a particular person or group or time. All scripture is profitable. They are our examples. They are not written for his sake alone, but for us also. Lets learn from this. Jesus Christ knew the scriptures were written for Him. He showed His followers the things that were written in all the Scriptures concerning Himself. We ought to follow in His steps. Paul talked of all scriptures to Timothy a gentile, the Bereans were gentiles who searched the scriptures. Jesus also said to search the scriptures. We should not allow anyone or any 'wisdom'to cheat us from having the totality of the scriptures. Jesus died(was delivered) for our sins, and resurrected for our justification. Without resurrection, we would not have being justified.

I don't think the bible is saying the same thing you are saying in Rom 4:24. It says 'for us also', I don't believe Paul was referring to scriptures, i believe he was saying imputation of righteousness through faith without works was not for Abraham alone but for all believers of the gospel.

"But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed (we can get the same put to the account as Abraham did. And how do we do it?), if we believe (oh listen, how many different groups have put everything else in there except that? If we do this and if we do that, but beloved that's not what it says. If we believe) on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;"

The same Paul made it known to us in the book of Romans 15:4


4 For whatever things were written before were written for our learning, that we through the patience and comfort of the Scriptures might have hope. 4 For everything that was written in the past was written to teach us, so that through endurance and the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope.

shdemidemi:

I don't think the bible is saying the same thing you are saying in Rom 4:24. It says 'for us also', I don't believe Paul was referring to scriptures, i believe he was saying imputation of righteousness through faith without works was not for Abraham alone but for all believers of the gospel.

"But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed (we can get the same put to the account as Abraham did. And how do we do it?), if we believe (oh listen, how many different groups have put everything else in there except that? If we do this and if we do that, but beloved that's not what it says. If we believe) on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;"

The same Paul made it known to us in the book of Romans 15:4


4 For whatever things were written before were written for our learning, that we through the patience and comfort of the Scriptures might have hope. 4 For everything that was written in the past was written to teach us, so that through endurance and the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope.

errrhh, i think you just contradicted yourself in the bolded. You are trying to say that only Genesis 15 was written "for us" and you end up quoting scriptures that state that WHATEVER was written, not just Genesis 15. All was written for OUR.