Rom 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

This verse affirms and emphasizes the centrality of Jesus Christ. We have peace with God because we are justified by faith, and that justification is through our Lord and Master Jesus Christ. The previous verse just went through telling us that Jesus was raised/resurrected FOR/SO THAT we would be justified. Justification, Atonement, Redemption, Forgiveness of sins, Repentance, Grace, Faith. these concepts are what happened/happens on the road to salvation. They are not exactly synonyms(alternative word, alternative expression, other word, substitute, replacement). They are different but intertwined. Yet, as simple as the gospel seemingly is, these are some of the mighty transactions that take place in the spirit when we accept Jesus into our lives. The passages we have been treating have been quite particular about Justification. Like i've earlier said, justification means to be righteoused as it were. It means to be just, declared right, aligned, morally correct. Jesus gave us justification. Justification is different from forgiveness, higher than forgiveness. Forgiveness of sins is all they had in the old testament. Forgiveness is not exactly new testament, they already had it from the old covenant. Psalm 103 talks of blessing the Lord Who forgiveth all thine iniquities; who healeth all thy diseases. They had forgiveness by the blood of the lamb, they even had healing. But all these came in Christ's package too with MUCH MORE. Forgiveness is for the criminal, the sinner. you are forgiven of your sins and crimes. You have done wrong, and deserve to be punished but have been forgiven. But in the issue of justification, the wonder is that you are not a criminal, you are right, you are just, you are righteous. As in, it means that God does not see or look at you as a poor,wretched forgiven sinner who should probably be in prison or facing firing squad, or in court. God looks as you as not having done any sin, He looks at you as RIGHT, reasonable, righteous. This is done, accomplished through Jesus Christ. His death on the cross gave you forgiveness, His resurrection gave you justification. They are both obtained through faith in Him. Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. You have peace with God. you as a believer are not an offender before God, or a debtor or former debtor even. What a joy, what a relief! You now how forgiven debtors behave before the person they once owed or offended, that freedom is not exactly there. the conscience still pricks them kind of. but Jesus has given us that freedom, that liberty, that peace before God. Alleluia, we come BOLDLY before the throne. This is God's purpose, this is the price Jesus paid, it is absurd when christians are cringing and confessing weakness and unworthiness "oh i'm a wretched sinner, a worm, worse than this and that". This is living below the standard, the privilege, the grace. We have peace with God. This is the gospel....

Rom 5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

By Jesus also, we have access into grace by faith. Faith is critical to the christian life. The just shall live by faith. Without faith, it is IMPOSSIBLE to God. He that comes to God MUST believe. Forgiveness is by faith, justification is by faith, Access is by faith, All the wonderful blessings in the kingdom are by faith.
2 And that's not all: We throw open our doors to God and discover at the same moment that he has already thrown open his door to us. We find ourselves standing where we always hoped we might stand — out in the wide open spaces of God's grace and glory, standing tall and shouting our praise.
(from THE MESSAGE Bible)
The christian life is also a life of joy and hope. The hope of glory makes us to rejoice, that is eternity to be concise.

Rom 5:3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;

And we do not only glory in eternity, we also glory in the present. In the present there might be troubles or tribulation. Jesus said that in the world, we have tribulation. Tribulations here simply refers to troubles, suffering, affliction, not the coming Great Tribulation. Its talking of the challenges and troubles that we face in daily life. This is proper perspective of the christian life. The christian life is not primrily excluded from tribulations, problems or challenges. Jesus did not come to save you from problems of daily life, primarily. So, it becomes wrong to build your foundation on that. i've seen folks who are shattered and disoriented when God does not 'save' them from challenges or problems. That is not the primary purpose or foundation of the gospel, or of Jesus. Jesus came to save you from sin, and from the wrath to come, and from the oppression of the enemy. These are the basics, the foundation, the primary purpose of the gospel and of Jesus coming. If you don't face tribulations as it were, well, lucky you if i may so say. But if you do as is most likely, glory in it.Rejoice, be glad, not gloomy. Not threatening to backslide, or telling us how God has failed you. The Living Bible says We can rejoice, too, when we run into problems and trials CEV says We gladly suffer. This is the normal christian life. this is the fellow who has been justified, and has access and peace with God.

Rom 5:4 And patience, experience; and experience, hope:
Rom 5:5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

Our tribulations, challenges, troubles, problems work patience for us. They are meant to make us patient. Ye have heard of the patience of Job, and have seen the end of the Lord. Job was not even in the new testament, that is a challenge. Because, we have Jesus, we have complete Bible, we have Holy Ghost, we have justification, and access and etc When we face challenges, the end of God, the purpose or goal of God is to produce patience in us. The purpose of our tests and exams is to grade us, to promote us, to give us a degree or certificate or job or promotion. But some folks see tests and break down, fail, run mental, go on strike. It is not meant to be so. Our tribulations(if we face any) should be something that we see and are glad, and allow it to produce in us patience, and experience and hope. And in the end, we are not ashamed, because the love of God is shed in our hearts. We do not feel shortchanged as one version puts it.

Rom 5:6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

Did you read/hear that? when we were, that is in the past, past tense. when we were without strength. That means, we are now strenghtened. This is so important, so as not to miss the time that we are in. There was a time when we were without strength. But NOW, we have strength, we can do all things through Christ, who strengthens us. We can't afford to be like before when we were without strength. That time was when none understood, none righteous, all gone out of the way, full of cursing and bitterness, open sepulchre, no fear of God. Then Jesus came, in due time, at the rightest time, Christ died for the ungodly.

Rom 5:7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.

That Jesus was crucified is not the big deal, two thieves were also crucified with Him BTW. The big deal, the special thing is not even that He was innocent, or that He died in our place. This verse says that such action is scarce but not impossible. Dying for another person is vicarious and heroic. A father may die for his family, or a friend for someone else. The uniqueness of Christ's death is that He was born of a virgin, and was pure and spotless, acceptable for the sacrifice/offering of taking our place.

Rom 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

God loved us while we were yet sinners. Jesus died for us while we were yet sinners. We didn't do anything right to make Jesus die for us, we could not. This is God's help, divine help, grace. Again, notice that phrase "we were yet sinners" We were, a christian is not still a sinner. We should b=not continue in sin. Jesus came to save us from sin, that was His primary purpose "thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins." Matthew 1. A christian is not a sinner, neither should he/she think it humility to constant confessing to be a poor sinner. We WERE sinners, all believers, Paul, the roman believers, we WERE sinners, but Christ died for us.

Rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
Rom 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

NOW, we are JUSTIFIED, righteoused as it were. Being now justified by his blood. There is a MUCH MORE in the new testament. The new covenant is a BETTER covenant. That is, if God can commend His love to us, and send us Jesus to die for us, when WE WERE sinners, How Much More, Now, that we are justified, we will be saved from wrath through the same Jesus. There is a wrath coming. John baptist talked of fleeing from the wrath to come. He said "He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. " We have already seen in this epistle that this wrath did not disappear when Jesus came, recall
Rom 1:18a For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men. Chapter 2 talks of the day of wrath. See also, Eph 5:6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. . Colossians, Thessalonains and Revelations also reiterate this fact. God remains angry with the wicked every day.

Rom 5:11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

In Christ, we are saved from wrath, which in itself is a jackpot of some sort. But not only so. The package we get in Christ is inestimable, it is so much, of great advantage, mouth watering. We have healing, forgiveness, justification, and now he mentions atonement. That is, we are made God's friends, reconciled, and exchange has taken place, restoration to divine favour. He mentions this fact of reconciliation and restoration to friendship as there is a past he is about to talk about. There is an history where relationship was broken, and something taken.

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errrhh, i think you just contradicted yourself in the bolded. You are trying to say that only Genesis 15 was written "for us" and you end up quoting scriptures that state that WHATEVER was written, not just Genesis 15. All was written for OUR.

I never said only genesis 15 was written for us, how can I possibly say that... All I said was that Paul was not speaking of the entire Old Testament in the Rom 4:24 as construed by you, I believe he was talking about 'imputation of righteousness'. This does not mean any word in the scriptures should be discarded, we both agree the entire scripture was inspired by God.

Having said that, we are also charged to rightly divide the word of God. Most part of the scriptures was written for information purpose hence we learn from such, some are written as doctrines to be practiced as believers. I believe our job is to decipher and discern what was actually written for church practices.

Now I always like to try and clarify where I'm afraid that I have been misunderstood. I am not saying that you're not to read the Four Gospels." Now you know I have never said anything like that, but they can twist it you know. I have never told anybody not to look at the Old Testament or not to look at the Gospels, but here it is. Everything that was written before Paul wrote is for the believers' learning. And I would say the same thing with the Gospels. Granted there's not Church doctrine in the Gospels, but that doesn't mean that we don't study them. That doesn't mean that we don't make application. In fact I always have the primary one, when Jesus was talking to the Twelve up there on the northern shores of Galilee, and He probably saw a northern city ten to fifteen miles away sitting up there on the mountain side, and what did He say to the disciples as a perfect illustration? "You're just like that city on a hill:"


Matthew 5:14

"Ye are the light of the world, A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid."


Now who was to be the light of the world according to all the Old Testament promises? Israel, the Jew. But Israel rejected that opportunity of becoming the light of the world, so now by application, who today is the light of the world? You and I as believers, and so we can still make the same application. In the verse right before that He used salt as the example.


Matthew 5:13

"Ye are the salt of the earth;..."


Christ was talking to the Twelve indicative to the Nation of Israel, but we know Israel rejected that role, so today who is the salt of the earth? Again, you and I as believers. Absolutely we are, and the same throughout all the Gospel accounts. We can see perfect applications, even though it was spoken to Israel under the Law, so here's where we have to be careful. Paul tells us that these Old Testament things were written not for our doctrine. You won't find Grace Salvation back in the Old Testament. You won't find anything concerning the Body of Christ, or the Rapture of the Church, and all these things that are indicative of the Body of Christ. But does that mean we don't study the Old Testament? No way. I love to the book of Genesis and that's where you get the foundation even for what we believe as Grace Age believers.

Image123: 2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

This is the judgement within the body of Christ not the judgement to hell like you might want to have me believe. The parable of the sower comes to mind- But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold.

shdemidemi:

This is the judgement within the body of Christ not the judgement to hell like you might want to have me believe. The parable of the sower comes to mind- But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold.

i answered floryg's question and then you brought up a question in another context. The passage i gave you was simply to put you back in full context.Everyone will be judged whatever name or time you call it. And every man's works will be rewarded whether good or bad.
2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
Mat 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
Rom 14:12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

i simply quoted scripture as i wanted you to believe scripture. i don't know why you think i want you to believe a particular judgement to hell, whatever that means.

shdemidemi:

I never said only genesis 15 was written for us, how can I possibly say that... All I said was that Paul was not speaking of the entire Old Testament in the Rom 4:24 as construed by you, I believe he was talking about 'imputation of righteousness'. This does not mean any word in the scriptures should be discarded, we both agree the entire scripture was inspired by God.

You implied that only genesis 15 was written for us, and you are still saying that that is what verse 24 is saying. i'm giving a cumulative observation. the epistle is littered with several references to different books and passages in the OT, obviously those passages referenced were written for us, and to cap it up,
Rom 15:4 For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the Scriptures might have hope.
Whatsoever, not just verse 24. The entire scripture is inspired by God, written for us, and profitable.

Having said that, we are also charged to rightly divide the word of God. Most part of the scriptures was written for information purpose hence we learn from such, some are written as doctrines to be practiced as believers. I believe our job is to decipher and discern what was actually written for church practices.

We are to rightly divide, not just divide. What you are doing is just dividing. Other scriptures should be had in mind while dividing. you don't just take a verse and build a huge structure on it, without recourse to other scriptures that speak on similar issue. Cumulatively, the Bible teaches that ALL scripture is profitable and not to be discarded. The Roman epistle shows it, and has been consistent at that in every chapter considered so far. Each chapter has quoted and heavily relied on the Old Testament Bible. The Berean christians searched the Old testament Bible to confirm what the apostles were saying before they fully accepted their teaching. Jesus said to search the scriptures. Paul said to study.

Now I always like to try and clarify where I'm afraid that I have been misunderstood. I am not saying that you're not to read the Four Gospels." Now you know I have never said anything like that, but they can twist it you know. I have never told anybody not to look at the Old Testament or not to look at the Gospels, but here it is. Everything that was written before Paul wrote is for the believers' learning.

And what is that learning for if not to do?
Jam 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
Luk 11:28 But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.
Mat 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
Phi 4:8 Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.

And I would say the same thing with the Gospels. Granted there's not Church doctrine in the Gospels, but that doesn't mean that we don't study them. That doesn't mean that we don't make application. In fact I always have the primary one, when Jesus was talking to the Twelve up there on the northern shores of Galilee, and He probably saw a northern city ten to fifteen miles away sitting up there on the mountain side, and what did He say to the disciples as a perfect illustration? "You're just like that city on a hill:"


Matthew 5:14

"Ye are the light of the world, A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid."


Now who was to be the light of the world according to all the Old Testament promises? Israel, the Jew. But Israel rejected that opportunity of becoming the light of the world, so now by application, who today is the light of the world? You and I as believers, and so we can still make the same application. In the verse right before that He used salt as the example.


Matthew 5:13

"Ye are the salt of the earth;..."


Christ was talking to the Twelve indicative to the Nation of Israel, but we know Israel rejected that role, so today who is the salt of the earth? Again, you and I as believers. Absolutely we are, and the same throughout all the Gospel accounts. We can see perfect applications, even though it was spoken to Israel under the Law, so here's where we have to be careful. Paul tells us that these Old Testament things were written not for our doctrine. You won't find Grace Salvation back in the Old Testament. You won't find anything concerning the Body of Christ, or the Rapture of the Church, and all these things that are indicative of the Body of Christ. But does that mean we don't study the Old Testament? No way. I love to the book of Genesis and that's where you get the foundation even for what we believe as Grace Age believers.

i actually wouldn't like to deviate too far from this thread. Just see it this way, even the verse 24/23 in your question, Is it literally written for Abraham? Because as far as we literally know, Abraham was dead even before it was written or recorded. So we can't be here arguing that it is not for us. All scriptures are written for the benefit of everyone.

^^^^ I believe you are missing these things a little, we can't afford to see ourselves as Israel. We are not, God has his plan for his earthly people. He has his ways which he has kept as a secret to himself for the body of Christ, these secrets or mysteries of the body/church were revealed to this Apostle called Paul.

Deuteronomy 29:29

"The secret things belong unto the Lord our God: but those things which are revealed (are no longer secret) belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law.

The Sovereign God. It's His prerogative to keep things secret if He wants to. And that's where it was. It was hidden in God, the same God who created all things by Jesus Christ.

Apostle Paul would then say concerning the revelation and the gospel he got-

Ephesians 3:9

"And to make all men see (not just Israel or the Gentiles, but the whole human race) what is the fellowship of the mystery, (secret) which from the beginning of the world (age) hath been hid (where?) in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ.

What am I trying to say here! mixing the book of revelation, the four gospels, the book of Peter and James can only water down the gospel of God(notice Paul never calls this gospel the gospel of the kingdom) in this dispensation. The epistles stand on their own, they were secrets hidden in God for the church. Paul could then say Peter, James and the Jewish elders in Jerusalem could not add to this gospel

Gal 2
6 But of these who seemed to be somewhat, (whatsoever they were, it maketh no matter to me: God accepteth no man's person for they who seemed to be somewhat in conference added nothing to me:

Paul spoke above them, he had a message the rest could not comprehend. I hope we don't deviate from the main reason for the thread but if we can establish some truth within scripture, I believe you wouldn't mind the brief digression yourself. So the thing you want to realize is, with every portion of Scripture that you read, before you even begin to pick it apart, you should ask yourself just two or three simple questions. Who’s writing? To whom is he writing? What are the circumstances around this writing?

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You implied that only genesis 15 was written for us, and you are still saying that that is what verse 24 is saying. i'm giving a cumulative observation. the epistle is littered with several references to different books and passages in the OT, obviously those passages referenced were written for us, and to cap it up,
Rom 15:4 For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the Scriptures might have hope.
Whatsoever, not just verse 24. The entire scripture is inspired by God, written for us, and profitable..

Don't get me wrong, Genesis 15 as well as all the history books were written for our information, For our learning about the attributes of God and it also serves as a way to show us how everything started. In verse 23-24 of the Romans,

23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;

24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
Paul was not referring to

It is quite obvious Paul was referring to imputation of righteousness and not the application of the entire book.

shdemidemi: ^^^^ I believe you are missing these things a little, we can't afford to see ourselves as Israel. We are not,

And why can we not? We have been engrafted into the tree. We are also partakers of the Kingdom, and fellow heirs. Christ has made us one blood.
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Again, what God has joined together, do not put asunder. We are partakers and fellow children of Abraham.

God has his plan for his earthly people. He has his ways which he has kept as a secret to himself for the body of Christ, these secrets or mysteries of the body/church were revealed to this Apostle called Paul.

Deuteronomy 29:29

"The secret things belong unto the Lord our God: but those things which are revealed (are no longer secret) belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law.

The Sovereign God. It's His prerogative to keep things secret if He wants to. And that's where it was. It was hidden in God, the same God who created all things by Jesus Christ.

The mysteries of the kingdom were revealed to all the apostles.
Luk 8:9 And his disciples asked him, saying, What might this parable be?
Luk 8:10 And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.

Apostle Paul would then say concerning the revelation and the gospel he got-

Ephesians 3:9

"And to make all men see (not just Israel or the Gentiles, but the whole human race) what is the fellowship of the mystery, (secret) which from the beginning of the world (age) hath been hid (where?) in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ.

What am I trying to say here! mixing the book of revelation, the four gospels, the book of Peter and James can only water down the gospel of God(notice Paul never calls this gospel the gospel of the kingdom) in this dispensation.

The verse you just quoted is like a paraphrase of the great commision, which was committed into the hand of all believers starting from the ascension of Jesus. It's not peculiar to Paul. Thank God for Paul and his ministry and complete obedience, but these things were not hid to other apostles. The Word of God is one, Scriptures is one, the gospel is one. Paul severely warned against another gospel. The gospel is one and the same. Jeus preached it and said it will be preached until the end of the world and in all the world.
Mar 1:14 Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,
Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Paul was not ashamed of it, and preached it to all he met.
Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
Act 28:31 Preaching the kingdom of God, and teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ, with all confidence, no man forbidding him.
Gala 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
It is about this same gospel and Kingdom that Peter and other apostles preached.

The epistles stand on their own, they were secrets hidden in God for the church. Paul could then say Peter, James and the Jewish elders in Jerusalem could not add to this gospel

Gal 2
6 But of these who seemed to be somewhat, (whatsoever they were, it maketh no matter to me: God accepteth no man's person for they who seemed to be somewhat in conference added nothing to me:

Paul himself could not and should not add to the gospel. All Paul is saying in that verse is that the gospel was not taught to him by the chief apostles. In another place, he reveals that it was Christ Himself who taught him. He was simply defending and establishing his co-authority as an apostle, not that he is saying that he has a special thing that nobody has.

Paul spoke above them, he had a message the rest could not comprehend.

THIS IS ENTIRE YOUR PERSONAL OPINION AND IT IS NOWHERE STATED IN THE SCRIPTURES. The apostles could not comprehend but you can abi? yea right. Paul thought of himself as the least, i don't know where you get this speaking above them mentality.

I hope we don't deviate from the main reason for the thread but if we can establish some truth within scripture, I believe you wouldn't mind the brief digression yourself. So the thing you want to realize is, with every portion of Scripture that you read, before you even begin to pick it apart, you should ask yourself just two or three simple questions. Who’s writing? To whom is he writing? What are the circumstances around this writing?

Fine, but i don't actually pick them apart. i ask God's Spirit to explain them to me, and bring to my remembrance other scriptures He has taught me, so it makes my understanding of broader and cumulative perspective, to His glory. It also helps me to rightly divide the Word of truth, instead of just dividing into verses, chapters and writers. All Scripture is authored and inspired by God, so i care less who is writing but more on Who authoured. i learn from every scripture, and ask for grace to be doer of the Word. i'm not looking for whom is he writing to, i know it is me. i say, Here i am Lord, listening, instead of saying Oh, he's speaking to Galatians, or to Timothy, or to Peter, or to Nicodemus, or to Moses. He is always speaking to me. i learn from ants and from lilies, why would i not learn from every writ of the Holy Bible? i also look at the circumstances around the writing, which is the context, but i am not limited to them. The context is a base and a foundation that should be there. That allows God to lead and make the Word not just letter but Spirit. Most of the NT quoting of OT scriptures are not exactly in 'primary context' if you would study them.

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And why can we not? We have been engrafted into the tree. We are also partakers of the Kingdom, and fellow heirs. Christ has made us one blood.
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Again, what God has joined together, do not put asunder. We are partakers and fellow children of Abraham.

You are right that there is no Jew nor gentile in Christ. The boundary has been put down by the gospel of Christ, you cannot afford to go back to the Jewish ways of doing things.

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The mysteries of the kingdom were revealed to all the apostles.
Luk 8:9 And his disciples asked him, saying, What might this parable be?
Luk 8:10 And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand..

The truth remains that Christ said to the disciples I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. He had much more things to say but it was expedient that he leaves for these things to be revealed.

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The verse you just quoted is like a paraphrase of the great commision, which was committed into the hand of all believers starting from the ascension of Jesus. It's not peculiar to Paul. Thank God for Paul and his ministry and complete obedience, but these things were not hid to other apostles. The Word of God is one, Scriptures is one, the gospel is one. Paul severely warned against another gospel. The gospel is one and the same. Jeus preached it and said it will be preached until the end of the world and in all the world.
Mar 1:14 Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,
Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.].

One thing you need to separate is the gospel of the kingdom and the gospel Paul calls 'his', he also calls this gospel a gospel of God or the gospel of Christ but never a gospel of the kingdom. The fact still remains that all the people in Rome, Galatia, Corinth, Philippi, colosse did not know about Mathew, Mark, Luke and John. Paul brought them out from whatever they believed with the gospel and revelation he got from Christ.

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Paul was not ashamed of it, and preached it to all he met.
Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
Act 28:31 Preaching the kingdom of God, and teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ, with all confidence, no man forbidding him.
Gala 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
It is about this same gospel and Kingdom that Peter and other apostles preached.

You won't find Peter James and John speak about issues concerning the resurrection, which is central to our salvation. Not a word about salvation by faith and faith alone. And not a word about the Body of Christ, which we have been placed into. Now, when I refer to Paul’s Gospel, I’m referring to what he said in I Corinthians 15:1-4. "That it’s by my gospel," Paul says, "that you are saved." And what is Paul’s Gospel? "How that Christ died for our sins. That He was buried and that He arose again the third day according to the scriptures." That’s Paul’s Gospel, and you must believe that with all your heart! And if you can’t find that in these Jewish epistles (which you can’t), then you have to recognize that they’re not proclaiming Paul’s Gospel, because they’re in the "Kingdom" economy, and you cannot mix the two, because one was under Law and the other is under Grace!

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Paul himself could not and should not add to the gospel. All Paul is saying in that verse is that the gospel was not taught to him by the chief apostles. In another place, he reveals that it was Christ Himself who taught him. He was simply defending and establishing his co-authority as an apostle, not that he is saying that he has a special thing that nobody has..

The "Kingdom Gospel" starts out probably the plainest when Jesus asked the twelve disciples back in Matthew 16, "Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?" And, of course, some said, "You’re John the Baptist, some think you’re one of the prophets." Then He came back and said, "But whom do you say that I am?" And Peter answered, "Thou art the Christ the Son of the Living God." Period. And that’s all these Jews back here in the Four Gospels had to believe for salvation.


Of course, he couldn’t mention the death, burial and resurrection because it hadn’t happened yet and they didn’t know it was going to happen. They had no idea that they would be going up to Jerusalem for a crucifixion. So the Kingdom Gospel is that Jesus was the Christ. He was the Son of God. And He was offering Israel the glories of the earthly Kingdom, promised all the way up through the Old Testament.


So as go into the Jewish epistles, everything is directed as yet to Jewish Kingdom believers. They had simply believed Jesus was indeed the Messiah. And they’re still under the Law and you’re going to see language that indicates that, even in I John. So, be aware there are things in here that we can apply but, by and large, all of these little Jewish epistles are written to Jewish Kingdom believers who had probably been scattered out of the Church at Jerusalem and are still under pressure from the Romans.


They’re also under the pressure of orthodox Jews who were aghast that these people were ignorant enough to accept this Jesus of Nazareth as their Messiah. So, they’re under tremendous persecution and the whole theme of all these little epistles, James, I & II Peter, I, II & III John, and Jude is to prepare these Jewish Kingdom believers for the Tribulation that’s right out in front of them. And they would have to go through that Tribulation pressure before their Messiah could come and set up the Kingdom - where we in the this Age of Grace are promised we don’t have to go through the Tribulation, but will be Raptured out before that takes place.

Now there is some indication of His shed blood, for propitiation of sin. But there is nothing pertaining to the death, burial and resurrection that we are to place our faith in as the means of salvation in this Age of Grace. But their means of salvation was to believe Who Jesus really was.

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THIS IS ENTIRE YOUR PERSONAL OPINION AND IT IS NOWHERE STATED IN THE SCRIPTURES. The apostles could not comprehend but you can abi? yea right. Paul thought of himself as the least, i don't know where you get this speaking above them mentality.

Lets look at the verses together-


Galatians 2:7

"But contrariwise, (Paul writes) when they (the Twelve) saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision (that’s Gentiles) was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision (Israel) was (committed) unto Peter;" Now that’s plain language. Two totally different concepts. The Gospel of salvation for the Gentile had been committed unto the Apostle Paul. The Gospel of salvation for the Jews had been committed to Peter and the Eleven. All right now then, verse 8.


Galatians 2:8

"(For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, (Israel) the same (that is the same Christ, the same God) was mighty in me toward (what people?) the Gentiles" Now that’s as different as daylight and dark. There’s no amalgamating them. Peter’s the apostle to Israel. Paul’s the apostle to the Gentiles.


Galatians 2:9a

"And when James, Cephas, (Peter) and John,.…
Galatians 2:9b

"…who seemed to be pillars, (that is, of the Kingdom economy up there at Jerusalem) perceived (or understood) the grace that was given unto me,.…" When they understood, yes, Paul is the apostle of the Gentiles; we’re the apostles of Israel.


Galatians 2:9c

"…they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; (all three of them shook on it. And here is that gentleman’s agreement) that we should go unto the heathen, (Gentiles) and they unto the circumcision." (Israel, the Jew) That was a gentleman’s agreement. No more subterfuge; no more undermining Paul’s ministry. We’re going to leave you to the Gentiles and now look what it is. They agreed with the right hands of fellowship that Paul and Barnabas should go to the heathen, the Gentiles; and they, James, and Peter, and John, and the rest of the Jerusalem leadership (the Kingdom economy), they would stay with the circumcision, with Israel. The agreement, that Paul would be the apostle to the Gentiles with Barnabas’ help, of course. And that the Twelve would confine their ministry to Israel.

shdemidemi:

You are right that there is no Jew nor gentile in Christ. The boundary has been put down by the gospel of Christ, you cannot afford to go back to the Jewish ways of doing things.

i never mentioned going back anywhere. i've been talking about obeying the Word of God instead of pushing it to others.

The truth remains that Christ said to the disciples I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. He had much more things to say but it was expedient that he leaves for these things to be revealed.

You said that the mysteries of the Kingdom were revealed to Paul. i simply reminded you that they were also revealed to other disciples too, not only Paul.
Luk 8:9 And his disciples asked him, saying, What might this parable be?
Luk 8:10 And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.
please lets seek to understand scriptures here, not just to defend our point/idea at all cost. Here is the scripture you just alluded to.
Joh 16:12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
Joh 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will show you things to come.
Joh 16:14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall show it unto you.
You left out the part where Jesus said that they will know in the future, when the Holy Spirit came. Do you think Jesus was wrong here or what? Do you sincerely think only Paul could bear whatever Jesus had to say?

One thing you need to separate is the gospel of the kingdom and the gospel Paul calls 'his', he also calls this gospel a gospel of God or the gospel of Christ but never a gospel of the kingdom. The fact still remains that all the people in Rome, Galatia, Corinth, Philippi, colosse did not know about Mathew, Mark, Luke and John. Paul brought them out from whatever they believed with the gospel and revelation he got from Christ.

Can you show us a scripture that tells us that there is more than one gospel? i have shown you the scriptures that tell us that there is only one gospel, and another is a counterfeit.
Gala 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
Gala 1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
Did Paul know more than Jesus who said that the gospel of the kingdom will be preached everywhere? Why do you divide what God has not divided?
Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
Mar 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
Jesus clearly taughted, commanded and wished that the gospel of the kingdom be preached in ALL THE WORLD, every nation, to every creature. You can't come and tell us that it is just for Jews and Paul's gospel is different. Paul NEVER said that his message or gospel was different. The Bible does not make ANY demarcations as it talks of the gospel and how the apostles went everywhere preaching it in the book of Acts. paul preached about the Kingdom of God everywhere. In this same Romans, he talked of the Kingdom of God being not meat and drink.
Act 20:25 And now, behold, I know that ye all, among whom I have gone preaching the kingdom of God, shall see my face no more.
Act 28:30 And PAUL dwelt TWO whole years in his own hired house, and received all that came in unto him,
Act 28:31 Preaching the kingdom of God, and teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ, with all confidence, no man forbidding him.
you cannot just make blank statements like "all the people in Rome, Galatia, Corinth, Philippi, colosse did not know about Mathew, Mark, Luke and John" They did not know but you managed to know, right? Even Paul did not know abi, he didn't need it? Please, lets endeavour to say what the Bible is saying, and not just what we think or what it to say.

You won't find Peter James and John speak about issues concerning the resurrection, which is central to our salvation. Not a word about salvation by faith and faith alone. And not a word about the Body of Christ, which we have been placed into. Now, when I refer to Paul’s Gospel, I’m referring to what he said in I Corinthians 15:1-4. "That it’s by my gospel," Paul says, "that you are saved." And what is Paul’s Gospel? "How that Christ died for our sins. That He was buried and that He arose again the third day according to the scriptures." That’s Paul’s Gospel, and you must believe that with all your heart! And if you can’t find that in these Jewish epistles (which you can’t), then you have to recognize that they’re not proclaiming Paul’s Gospel, because they’re in the "Kingdom" economy, and you cannot mix the two, because one was under Law and the other is under Grace!

You see why i say that you are only causing a derail of the thread with all these? You are just making me have to help you look up things that have almost nothing to do with this thread. Tey and do more study before making these types of statements. Here is Peter on resurrection for instance.
1Pe 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
1Pe 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
The resurrection was what they preached in the Acts of the apostles, long when Paul was still busy stoning people.
Act 4:2 Being grieved that they taught the people, and preached through Jesus the resurrection from the dead.
Act 4:33 And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all.
Act 3:26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

It is the same resurrection that Paul later went about preaching. There are many scriptures for this, please do your studies.
Act 23:6 But when Paul perceived that the one part were Sadducees, and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, Men and brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee: of the hope and resurrection of the dead I am called in question.
How anyone will imply that only Paul spoke about faith and the church baffles me. Peter in one of his letters was delivering a message from the church of Babylon. How could he not know about or speak about the church(which is the body of Christ)? Was it not primarily to him that Jesus made that famous statement about the gates of hell not prevailing against the church. Even tradition has it that he(Peter) was bishop in the Roman church for sometime. How can you tell us that it was all paul. Paul himself tried so much to not make so much of himself. He wanted us to concentrate on Christ and the Word of God, not on Paul or Peter or Apollos. That God used Paul to write many epistles doesnot translate to mean that he was the only one that knew the things written. God used him to pen them down for us mostly, for future generations. He was the most educated of the apostles, and God got him to do the job of writing. this doesn't mean that he was the only one that preached or understood this things. THERE IS NO WHERE IN THE BIBLE THAT SAYS SO. Even, thank God for imprisonment that allowed Paul opportunity and need to write so many letters. How many hours or years did he use? Do you think the letters were the only messages the apostles(Paul and others) preached. Do you assume that any book or author you see today, the content of their book is the only thing they know, and that others that have not written about it do not know?[i.e if for instance Oyedepo wrote a book on Holy Spirit and Akanni didn't, does that mean that Akanni does not know about Holy Spirit, or that the only thing Oyedepo knows is Holy Spirit, he doesn't know about love or tribulation since he did not write on it?] Why do you think that way of the apostles?

The "Kingdom Gospel" starts out probably the plainest when Jesus asked the twelve disciples back in Matthew 16, "Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?" And, of course, some said, "You’re John the Baptist, some think you’re one of the prophets." Then He came back and said, "But whom do you say that I am?" And Peter answered, "Thou art the Christ the Son of the Living God." Period. And that’s all these Jews back here in the Four Gospels had to believe for salvation.

Actually, the Kingdom gospel runs throughout the new testament books. All you need to do is search the books.
Mar 1:1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;
Mar 1:14 Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,
Mar 1:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.
This is the gospel of the Kingdom, this is the gospel of Jesus Christ, and Paul said he was not ashamed of it. Jesus said this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world. He did not say that it will change. He did not say he will give Paul his gospel and the former one will be for Jews. No, it is the same Kingdom of God for everyone. Infac Jesus warned the Jews that others may enter that kingdom before them. he did not make separate Kingdoms or separate gospels. Please, read your Bible alone on this matters. i appreciate books and teachings on dispensations and whatever, but let God be true and every man a liar. Let's study what God's word has said.

Of course, he couldn’t mention the death, burial and resurrection because it hadn’t happened yet and they didn’t know it was going to happen. They had no idea that they would be going up to Jerusalem for a crucifixion. So the Kingdom Gospel is that Jesus was the Christ. He was the Son of God. And He was offering Israel the glories of the earthly Kingdom, promised all the way up through the Old Testament.

Jesus mentioned His death, burial and resurrection severally before it happened. i'm not giving you scriptures for this, please read.

So as go into the Jewish epistles, everything is directed as yet to Jewish Kingdom believers. They had simply believed Jesus was indeed the Messiah. And they’re still under the Law and you’re going to see language that indicates that, even in I John. So, be aware there are things in here that we can apply but, by and large, all of these little Jewish epistles are written to Jewish Kingdom believers who had probably been scattered out of the Church at Jerusalem and are still under pressure from the Romans.

There is no Jewish kingdom, not in the NT Bible. It is the same kingdom of God. Every one was to seek the Kingdom of God, sinners and saints.
Mat 21:31 Whether of them twain did the will of his father? They say unto him, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you.
Who decides the things we can apply and the things we cannot apply in the epistles? Who says that the apostles'epistles were only written to Jewish people? Where do you get this? There is no such suggestion all through the Bible. i guess in the similar vein paul's epistles are only to corinth, philippi, Titus, timothy and co. they are not to you. That is not how God's Word is. All scripture is profitable for us, written for us.
2Pe 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the Scripture is of any private interpretation.
2Pe 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Savior Jesus Christ:

This epistle is CLEARLY written to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Savior Jesus Christ. that includes me and everyh other believer. This same epistle later says
2Pe 3:2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Savior:
It also talks of Paul's letter later. The point here is that we are to be mindful of the old testament and the new testament from this verse. None should be waved aside or demarcated as belonging to jew or whatever.

They’re also under the pressure of orthodox Jews who were aghast that these people were ignorant enough to accept this Jesus of Nazareth as their Messiah. So, they’re under tremendous persecution and the whole theme of all these little epistles, James, I & II Peter, I, II & III John, and Jude is to prepare these Jewish Kingdom believers for the Tribulation that’s right out in front of them. And they would have to go through that Tribulation pressure before their Messiah could come and set up the Kingdom - where we in the this Age of Grace are promised we don’t have to go through the Tribulation, but will be Raptured out before that takes place.

Now there is some indication of His shed blood, for propitiation of sin. But there is nothing pertaining to the death, burial and resurrection that we are to place our faith in as the means of salvation in this Age of Grace. But their means of salvation was to believe Who Jesus really was.

this is already answered above.

Lets look at the verses together-


Galatians 2:7

"But contrariwise, (Paul writes) when they (the Twelve) saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision (that’s Gentiles) was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision (Israel) was (committed) unto Peter;" Now that’s plain language. Two totally different concepts. The Gospel of salvation for the Gentile had been committed unto the Apostle Paul. The Gospel of salvation for the Jews had been committed to Peter and the Eleven. All right now then, verse 8.


Galatians 2:8

"(For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, (Israel) the same (that is the same Christ, the same God) was mighty in me toward (what people?) the Gentiles" Now that’s as different as daylight and dark. There’s no amalgamating them. Peter’s the apostle to Israel. Paul’s the apostle to the Gentiles.


Galatians 2:9a

"And when James, Cephas, (Peter) and John,.…
Galatians 2:9b

"…who seemed to be pillars, (that is, of the Kingdom economy up there at Jerusalem) perceived (or understood) the grace that was given unto me,.…" When they understood, yes, Paul is the apostle of the Gentiles; we’re the apostles of Israel.


Galatians 2:9c

"…they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; (all three of them shook on it. And here is that gentleman’s agreement) that we should go unto the heathen, (Gentiles) and they unto the circumcision." (Israel, the Jew) That was a gentleman’s agreement. No more subterfuge; no more undermining Paul’s ministry. We’re going to leave you to the Gentiles and now look what it is. They agreed with the right hands of fellowship that Paul and Barnabas should go to the heathen, the Gentiles; and they, James, and Peter, and John, and the rest of the Jerusalem leadership (the Kingdom economy), they would stay with the circumcision, with Israel. The agreement, that Paul would be the apostle to the Gentiles with Barnabas’ help, of course. And that the Twelve would confine their ministry to Israel.

Is a very simple thing i ask. There is no Bible passage that says that Paul had a message that the other apostles could not comprehend.

Thanks image for that insightful reply to shdemidemi posts,this is what happens when someone only picks some books from the bible to read without properly reading it as a whole package.Jesus actually talked about two kingdoms in Mathew 12 :26-28.
@shdemidemi, i would like you to study the scripture an answer these questions.
1. What are the kingdoms?
2. Are they physical or spiritual kingdoms?
3.Which of the kingdom do we belong to?
4.What are the implications of these kingdoms in our day to day living?

Bidam: Thanks image for that insightful reply to shdemidemi posts,this is what happens when someone only picks some books from the bible to read without properly reading it as a whole package.Jesus actually talked about two kingdoms in Mathew 12 :26-28.
@shdemidemi, i would like you to study the scripture an answer these questions.
1. What are the kingdoms?
2. Are they physical or spiritual kingdoms?
3.Which of the kingdom do we belong to?
4.What are the implications of these kingdoms in our day to day living?

you're welcome brother.

I think I will try to put some light on the difference between the gospel of Christ Paul preached to the one Peter preached.

Lets start this by going to the book of Acts 2:36

36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

Lets take this verse slowly by dividing what Peter actually meant by the statement-

"Therefore (because of all that has just taken place. Israel has had The Messiah for three years, performing signs and miracles, they crucified Him, God raised Him from the dead, and sent the Holy Spirit)

let all the house of Israel..."

We can clearly see the Peter's audience here. Now you can’t put us Gentiles in this verse, unless you force it. Peter is speaking to Jews on Covenant grounds. It’s the fulfilling of the Covenant which God made with Abraham.

if we move to Acts 3:24,25 (Peter speaking)

[b]"Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days." [/b]What days? Everything that has just taken place. According to Peter, the Crucifixion, Resurrection, ascension and coming of the Holy Spirit was prophesied. Look at verse 25:

"Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant (only the Nation of Israel. All prophecy is directed to the Nation of Israel, they are the ones that will be at the core of these prophetic events. Even the horrible events in Revelation will be directed primarily at the Jew. But the whole world will also reap the fallout from these events. Jeremiah 30 tells us it’s the time of Jacob’s trouble) which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, ‘And in thy seed (through the Nation of Israel) shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.’"

So Peter is on Covenant ground. He’s still on the basis that everything that has been since Abraham, that is: the Nation of Israel was to receive the Redeemer, The Messiah, The King and the Kingdom, and it would be through Israel that God would gather the Gentiles.


In Acts 2: 37-38

37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?


"Then Peter said unto them, ‘Repent, and be baptized (the next two words are crucial) every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost,’"

Everyone of them would have to be converted and accept Christ as their Messiah for God to pick up where He had left off. He would have sent back The King and set up the Kingdom. Peter also tells them this in Acts 3:26. Look at the message. Peter says, "Repent and be baptized." Who began that message? John the Baptist. John was the herald of The King, and his message was, "Repent and be baptized." That was for the Nation of Israel.

I don’t call Jewish believers Christians because the Bible doesn’t, but many people do. Remember believers were first called Christians at Antioch, and not Jerusalem. So they’re not Christians per se, they are Jewish believers in the Kingdom Gospel, and the gospel they believed for salvation is that Jesus was the Messiah of Israel, but they’re still under the Law. They’re still practicing Temple worship.

Compare Peter's response with Paul’s answer to the Gentile in Acts Chapter 16. Paul is not talking to the Nation of Israel, he’s talking to a Gentile. And when this Gentile asks what he must do to be saved, what does Paul tell him?

Acts 16:31

"And they (Paul and Silas) said, ‘Believe on The Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house


Does it say Repent and be baptized? No, and if that was the criteria it would have been in here. That was the Jewish program, and by this time it has fallen through the cracks because Israel is rejecting it again. God has now turned to the Gentiles through the Apostle Paul, without Israel. So the jailer said, "What must I do?" The answer is simple: "Only Believe on The Lord Jesus Christ." Now when you know the rest of Paul’s message, he only had one Gospel to believe: "That Christ died for your sins, was buried and rose from the dead." You can find that message in many places in Paul’s letters, for example I Corinthians 15:1-4. Believe the Gospel. And it’s no different for Gentiles today, and the Jew as well.

You search Paul’s letters and show me one place where Paul teaches repentance and baptism for Salvation. You won’t find it. Paul doesn’t teach it. Paul’s message is a different economy and you can’t mix them. A lot of people try to. Our Lord didn’t mix them and neither should we. The verses in Galatians 2:7-9 exist because they were two different messages. That’s why Peter says Paul’s message of Salvation is hard for him to understand in II Peter 3:15-16. To the Jew it was repent and be baptized. To the Gentile it is believe the Gospel. See how simple that is.

shdemidemi: I think I will try to put some light on the difference between the gospel of Christ Paul preached to the one Peter preached.

Lets start this by going to the book of Acts 2:36

36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

This is my last reply on this line of thought from you(on this thread). You clearly have decided to inconveniently assume that this is the only message and audience that Peter preached to in his entire ministry. The Bible shows us that he preached to both Jews and Gentiles in other places, and we do not have a complete record of ALL Peter's messages. It is why i continue hitting on this cumulative understanding and interpretation of scriptures. You are simply cherry picking.

Lets take this verse slowly by dividing what Peter actually meant by the statement-

"Therefore (because of all that has just taken place. Israel has had The Messiah for three years, performing signs and miracles, they crucified Him, God raised Him from the dead, and sent the Holy Spirit)

let all the house of Israel..."

We can clearly see the Peter's audience here. Now you can’t put us Gentiles in this verse, unless you force it. Peter is speaking to Jews on Covenant grounds. It’s the fulfilling of the Covenant which God made with Abraham.

Are the gentiles not to also know that God has made that same Jesus both Lord and Christ.He and we should say this same message to everyone. Jesus said to go into all the world and preach this same message. He never talked about two different gospels. There is NO BIBLE VERSE that talks of two different gospels. You are the one making things up. Everyone was involved and accused in His death.
Act 4:27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,

if we move to Acts 3:24,25 (Peter speaking)

"Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days." [/b]What days? Everything that has just taken place. According to Peter, the Crucifixion, Resurrection, ascension and coming of the Holy Spirit was prophesied. Look at verse 25:

"Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant (only the Nation of Israel. All prophecy is directed to the Nation of Israel, they are the ones that will be at the core of these prophetic events.

i want to believe that you did not deliberately leave out verse 26.
Act 3:24 Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.
Act 3:25 Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.
Act 3:26 [b]Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.
It says in proper context that all these message was to the jews FIRST. You say that it was to them ONLY. Let God be true.

Even the horrible events in Revelation will be directed primarily at the Jew. But the whole world will also reap the fallout from these events. Jeremiah 30 tells us it’s the time of Jacob’s trouble) which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, ‘And in thy seed (through the Nation of Israel) shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.’"

So Peter is on Covenant ground. He’s still on the basis that everything that has been since Abraham, that is: the Nation of Israel was to receive the Redeemer, The Messiah, The King and the Kingdom, and it would be through Israel that God would gather the Gentiles.

agreed. The natural jews have promises and plans primarily for them and we are coming to that in this book of Romans. But it should not be cut out that believing gentiles have been engrafted into the Tree.

In Acts 2: 37-38

37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?


"Then Peter said unto them, ‘Repent, and be baptized (the next two words are crucial) every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost,’"

Everyone of them would have to be converted and accept Christ as their Messiah for God to pick up where He had left off. He would have sent back The King and set up the Kingdom. Peter also tells them this in Acts 3:26. Look at the message. Peter says, "Repent and be baptized." Who began that message? John the Baptist. John was the herald of The King, and his message was, "Repent and be baptized." That was for the Nation of Israel.

This is what i have been saying except for the last sentence which is in bold. This is the gospel, and Jesus Christ commanded it to be preached to everyone not just for Jews.
Mar 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
This is the gospel to be preached to every creature and in all the world. Believe and be baptised. They are all intertwined and that is what makes the gospel message so simple. A living faith would naturally repent. A faith in Jesus is evidenced by repentance. One does not have to academically explain all the concepts of atonement, forgiveness, redemption, justification, grace, repentance, faith, conversion etc in a gospel message for it to be called/termed complete. All this things happen at the same time when a sinner is converted. Call it conversion, born again, new man, new life, its the same one gospel that we are talking about. It is not only for the nation of Israel. Paul himself preached repentance to gentiles.
Act 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

Act 26:19 Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision:
Act 26:20 But showed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.

Paul also preached FIRST to the Jews and then to the gentiles. It is not only Peter. Paul also taught baptism to gentiles.
Act 19:4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
Act 19:5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
We are all one in baptism. It is not only for jews. We are buried with Christ in baptism. When Paul went round preaching, his converts were baptised.
Act 16:14 And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul.
Act 16:15 And when she was baptized, and her household, she besought us, saying, If ye have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come into my house, and abide there. And she constrained us.

I don’t call Jewish believers Christians because the Bible doesn’t, but many people do. Remember believers were first called Christians at Antioch, and not Jerusalem. So they’re not Christians per se, they are Jewish believers in the Kingdom Gospel, and the gospel they believed for salvation is that Jesus was the Messiah of Israel, but they’re still under the Law. They’re still practicing Temple worship.

The name 'christian' was not given from heaven. It was more of a derogatory name that the gentiles/unbelievers used to describe believers. It's like calling someone pastor or MOG or S.U or Mother of Jesus, in a derogatory manner. But God caused it to work together for our good. Peter called the people he wrote to "christians" , you are the one insisting that he only wrote to jews. Any disciple or follower of Jesus is a christian.
1Pe 4:16 Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf.
Jesus is the Messiah, not just of Israel but of the whole world. He is the Lamb that took/takes away the sins of the whole world. He is the Christ, God has made Him so. Christ means Messiah.

Compare Peter's response with Paul’s answer to the Gentile in Acts Chapter 16. Paul is not talking to the Nation of Israel, he’s talking to a Gentile. And when this Gentile asks what he must do to be saved, what does Paul tell him?

Acts 16:31

"And they (Paul and Silas) said, ‘Believe on The Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house


Does it say Repent and be baptized? No, and if that was the criteria it would have been in here.

Like i have earlier explained, preaching the gospel is as simple as it gets. It is not mandatory to state all the lofty terms involved in the transaction. That one is for theology class and seminary, or as one grows in grace and in the knowledge of what God has done for us. Evidently, Paul baptised the gentile jailor if you bothered to read the next few verses.
Act 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
Act 16:32 And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.
Act 16:33 And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.
After saying "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, they went ahead and still told the man and his house other things(the Word of God). And he was baptized. Here are other gentiles that were baptized. God cammands everyone everywhere to REPENT.
Act 18:8 And Crispus, the chief ruler of the synagogue, believed on the Lord with all his house; and many of the Corinthians hearing believed, and were baptized.
Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Gala 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

That was the Jewish program, and by this time it has fallen through the cracks because Israel is rejecting it again. God has now turned to the Gentiles through the Apostle Paul, without Israel. So the jailer said, "What must I do?" The answer is simple: "Only Believe on The Lord Jesus Christ."

Answered above already. You have decided to introduce the word "only". The Bible puts "and" instead. That is, apart from the phrase "Believe on the Lord", other things were discussed.
Act 16:32 And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.
Please, endeavour to truly study the Word without bringing shame to it, and if you ever have to divide it, learn and pray to RIGHTLY divide it.
2Ti 2:15 Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Now when you know the rest of Paul’s message, he only had one Gospel to believe: "That Christ died for your sins, was buried and rose from the dead." You can find that message in many places in Paul’s letters, for example I Corinthians 15:1-4. Believe the Gospel. And it’s no different for Gentiles today, and the Jew as well.

All the apostles preached this too as i have severally shown you in my previous answer. i'll re-quote just one passage for emphasis.
Act 4:33 And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all.

You search Paul’s letters and show me one place where Paul teaches repentance and baptism for Salvation. You won’t find it. Paul doesn’t teach it. Paul’s message is a different economy and you can’t mix them. A lot of people try to. Our Lord didn’t mix them and neither should we. The verses in Galatians 2:7-9 exist because they were two different messages. That’s why Peter says Paul’s message of Salvation is hard for him to understand in II Peter 3:15-16. To the Jew it was repent and be baptized. To the Gentile it is believe the Gospel. See how simple that is.

Already addressed. i've shown you this from the Acts where Paul practically preached repentance and baptised converts. For extra, you may want to dust your concordance or make use of any Bible software's Search facility. Find the word 'repent' or 'repentance'in the Pauline epistles, thanks. No one separated the message in the Bible.there are not two different messages. What Paul writes of is two audiences and two apostles, not two different messages. Two locations can have two teachers or leaders, it doesn't automatically mean two different messages. Let us stick with what was said instead of embellishing and adding to it.
Gal 2:7 They realized that God had sent me with the good news for Gentiles, and that he had sent Peter with the same message for Jews.
Gal 2:8 God, who had sent Peter on a mission to the Jews, was now using me to preach to the Gentiles.
Gal 2:9 James, Peter, and John realized that God had given me the message about his undeserved kindness. And these men are supposed to be the backbone of the church. They even gave Barnabas and me a friendly handshake. This was to show that we would work with Gentiles and that they would work with Jews.
God sent Paul(an apostle is a Sent One) with the good news . He had sent Peter with the same message for Jews. God sent Peter at that time PRIMARILY to the Jews, and Paul PRIMARILY to the Gentiles. Note that it was not a limited thing. The two apostles and others preached to both Jews and Gentiles. But their ministry and mission, at the time Paul alluded to in this epistle, was defined. And Barnabas was also sent. It was not only Paul. That some apostles didn't write letters does not mean they were not sent or that God did not use them or that they didn't understand. God used everyone the way He pleased and thought best. Everyone has their reward, it is not competition. Today also, similarly, one might be sent or have a ministry to say Women, or the Married, or the Sick, or to Africa, or to Middle East, or to Muslims, or as an Apologetic, or whatever. there is so much to be done and the whole Body of Christ is/should function in unity. Peter NEVER says that Paul’s message of Salvation is hard for him to understand. You have again managed to add the phrase "for him". Please re-read that passage, thanks.

Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

By one man, sin entered into the world. By one man. Of course, we know from the OT Bible who that man was, Adam. Sin came into the world by Adam. Even though he, Adam did not accept responsibility in the Genesis account but blamed another, the Bible and the Spirit of God's position is that sin entered the world by Adam. Many people today still have the adamic nature of blaming others, instead of judging themselves and getting the best solution. Sin came into the world by Adam, and then death followed sin. When Adam was created, there was no sin and there was no death IN THE WORLD. Maybe sometime in the past, maybe some other place, but when Adam was created, there was no sin and there was no death IN THE WORLD. It's like we talk of eradicating a disease in a place. If for instance, polio is eradicated from Lagos state in 2013. It is possible for someone(Mr P) to carelessly carry it in again in future 2020. We can then say polio entered Lagos state through malicious Mr P. It is not however stated that there was never polio in Lagos before 2020, or that there is no polio in some other place outside Lagos state.
In the same vein, sin entered our world by Adam, one man. And then sin brought death and all its relatives and friends, sorrow, sickness etc. And then it says for all have sinned. goes to show how one little fire, one wrong, from one man can influence ALL. That's why wrong should be stopped before it grows big and not left unattended to. There are many false teachings and false practices left unattended to by many who feel they are safe and it doesn't affect them or their niche. But over time, it may become unstoppable and real trouble.
Ecc 9:18 Wisdom is better than weapons of war: but one sinner destroyeth much good.

Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

There is a parenthesis here that begins in this verse and ends in verse 17. Sin was in the world until the law. Many people think that sin came with the law. People think that there was no sin when God had not given Israel the law. No, there was. There was sin before the law, and there was sin after the law. The difference the law brought was that sin was now accounted, charged, imputed.Sin was now put to account. People became 'richer' in sin than the other. People were not punished ACCORDINGLY or IN PROPORTION to their own work. But now that the law came, people could be punished accordingly, because their sin is in their account balance as it were. So its not that there was no judgement for sin before the law. Of course there was, Cain was before Moses, the world of Noah was before Moses, Sodom and Gomorrah was before Moses. People were punished for sin. Ignorance is not bliss, and is not an excuse against judgement. Some people do not want to hear, or study or read the Word of God because they do not want to be guilty of not obeying. It does not work that way. It's like not having a meter billing system, and you are using electricity or water. You will be billed still, and you might not even like the bill or feel unjustly treated by the bill. But you will be billed still. There is judgement for every sinner, and all have sinned.

Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

NEVERTHELESS, think about that. That is , in spite of that, in spite of there been no law, death reigned from Adam to Moses. Between the period from the first man to the time when the law was given to Moses, death reigned. Death had come in by sin and it reigned supreme, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression. Now, we would think that Adam did not commit any of our great sins, our "top 10" sins. No murder, no fornication, no idolatry and co. He 'just ate'. But God took His sin as grievous, and people who did not even do up to that 'small' sin also had death reigning over them. Death here is not just physical death because physical death still continued when Moses came and after, and even till date when Jesus Himself has come and after. Death here is more than just physical, it also had to do with the spiritual. Death is separation. The Bible talks of believers been dead(e.g Colossians 3.3). Romans 6(our next chapter) talks more on this death which is not just physical.
Adam is a figure of him that was to come. Him that was to come is Jesus Christ. Adam is a figure, a type, a picture of Jesus. He Adam is the first Adam, while Jesus is the last Adam.
1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
He is like Jesus in that He is the first of our kind. We derive our nature and being from the Adam that we are of.

Rom 5:15 But not as the offense, so also is the free gift. For if through the offense of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
Rom 5:16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offenses unto justification.

Through Adam's offence, all of humanity is dead, suffers death. Much more, by God's grace and gift, ALL of Christ's have life. We should challenge ourselves to enjoy more, much more and all that Jesus did and lived for us. We should drop and abandon our first Adam qualities and covet and possess our last Adam qualities. Jesus Christ had to share in humanity. It was necessary that He became man Jesus Christ, so that we can partake of His nature and life. So that he could readily be our example. We cannot follow angels, and fly like them or whatever they do night and day. But we can live as Jesus lived. He is our man, our Adam, for those who believe and partake of this grace of God.

Rom 5:17 For if by one man's offense death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

They WHICH RECEIVE abundance of grace and the gift of righteousness. What we have to do is RECEIVE. Receiving is very important, very critical. God has done so much, God has done a lot. But we have to receive. That part is also so important. God gave His Son. He died for the world, He is the Lamb of God that takes away the sins of the world. He is our righteousness and sanctification, He became poor that we might be rich, he is our healer, saviour and King. he is this and that. But we have to receive. It is unto you ACCORDING TO your faith. It is not according to what God has done. In God's side, He has done all things, freely given us all things that pertain to life and godliness. He says "ALL THINGS are yours". The problem is at our end, the receiving end. They which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness. Not everybody receives unfortunately. And not everyone that dares to believe and receive actually receive the same thing. There is ABUNDANCE of grace and righteousness. Some receive just small, meagre, scrappy grace. Little righteousness. Those kind of people are saved, they are also believers. They are also 'going to Heaven' as it were. They are equally part of the church, the body of Christ. And sorrily, they are the majority in the faith. They do not reign. They cannot reign in life, because they have not received ABUNDANCE. They, i wish we were many more a part of that 'They'. They which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ. In life, in this life. Not just when we all get to Heaven, that we ought to sing and shout the victory. Reigning is not limited to eternity. We can reign. He died so that we might reign. There is a title written on His thigh, it is "KING OF KINGS".

Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offense of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Quite repetitive this passage, for emphasis and for understanding. The same thing is been said over and over in different ways, with the hope that the reader would get the message. By the righteousness of Jesus, the gift came upon ALL MEN. That it is a gift itself connotes that it is not earned but free, a present. The phrase "free gift" is used for emphasis that this salvation is FREE. There is no excuse or poverty to miss it. All you have to do is receive. The free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. The gift is not only for Jews or for Israel or for Asia, or for white people. The gift is for ALL MEN.

Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Jesus'obedience makes us righteous. Adam's disobedience made us sinners. Followers of Jesus are obedient people. As obedient children.
Rom 15:18 For I will not dare to speak of any of those things which Christ hath not wrought by me, to make the Gentiles obedient, by word and deed,

Rom 5:20 Moreover the law entered, that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
Rom 5:21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

The law entered that the offence might abound!! Can you imagine that? God gave us the law to show man his sins. The law was not given to make us righteous, it cannot. That is not its primary purpose. No one can keep the law to be righteous, whatever law and wherever that law is found. Righteousness is a gift from God as we have seen in verse 17. Adam said he was not guity, he had not sinned. he said it is someone else. His wife said the same thing, and so do his children till date. So God sent the law to show Adam's children that they have sinned. All have sinned. But till date, people still try to prove their righteousness. How they have tried, and how it is others that are bad. Some even say it is God that is bad, that is unfair. Some will blame church or pastors, or many other hypocrites. And sin continues to reign. Sin reigns and death reigns. But God's will is that grace should reign. God's will is that we should reign. There is grace available, grace in abundance, grace greater than all our sin.

Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

What shall we say then, the Word of God demands a reaction from us. When we hear the Word of God, there is always something to do. We may believe or disbelieve, we may obey or disobey, but we do not sit on the fence. What shall we say then, what should be our reaction to all these chapter 1 to 5? Haven now known that the law entered, that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: What is to now be our reaction? Having now observed that as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord. Do we now abuse the 'might' in the statement? 'Might' connotes an advice, of something that ought to be done. So, what shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? Shall we let sin to reign so that grace MIGHT reign? Of course, the answer is a NO.
Grace is God's help, God's mercy over man. It is like our 911, only better. God's help is a very present help in time of need. Now, logically, when do we need help? When do we need grace? Is it before we fall or after we fall? It is at both times. God's grace is sufficient. But many frustrate and make light of God's grace. They turn God's grace and help into lasciviousness, something carnal and wanton, something excessive. What i mean is that they prefer to call out/reach out for grace when they fall, not before. It is like someone who is walking on a narrow road, and is about to fall off. He can call for help so that he would not fall at all. He can also call for help after he has fallen. Help would come, God's grace is abundant. But would you not rather call for grace before the fall? Don't you know that you may fall and die. Or that you may fall and call for help and recover, but never fully recover? And the time wasted in recovery could have been more profitably used? But this is the way many take divine grace. We can come boldly and obtain grace to help in time of need. But folks do not see the period of temptation as a time of need. They fall into the temptation, then they ask for grace "Oh God, help me, I have fallen again, I drink sin like water, I am just a sinner, Your grace is amazing". But we need not fall at all in the first place. Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

God forbid, In no way, May it never be, Of course not, Certainly not.We should not continue in sin because there is grace. We don't continually have accidents because we have access to the best medical care. That is not the point or goal of grace. How shall we. We that are dead to sin. Here, the writer starts to talk on a death which is not physical. We, believers are dead. Death is separation. We believers are separated from sin. We should not live any more in sin. We should not go on sinning. Not because we cannot sin or whatever, we should not sin. It is not supposed to be in our new nature to sin, if truly we have become new creatures. (Some people twist the scriptures to mean that even when we sin, God does not see it as sin. Some say we cannot sin, in the sense that we are not capable of sin. So whatever our actions, God does not consider them sin. This is not the Bible's stance however. The Bible teaches that we should not sin. Paul here reasons with his audience as to why we should not sin. That we are dead to sin, so how and why should we live any longer in sin?)

Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?[/color

Paul begins to explain the reason why we are dead. The scriptures is a very wonderful book. You know, it tells us that as sinners, we were dead. Now again, as believers we are dead. So we need to follow carefully to understand what we are dead/separated from in each case. He says "Know ye not". Some things are expected to be known by us. When we are saved, born again. We are supposed to continue in FELLOWSHIP and in the doctrine of God. We are supposed to learn. It is not enough to give birth to a child. That, as joyous and as important as it is is not the end of life. Actually, it is the beginning. The child ought to be nurtured and ought to grow, and be trained and educated. But some people, when they give their lives to Christ, that's where it ends. They don't want to be visited or 'disturbed'. And then, they continue to make reference to some day or time when they gave their lives to Christ. That is just the beginning. There are things you ought to KNOW afterward. Know ye not? Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? As many of us, not all of us. Some people believed and were not baptised. Some people were baptised and did not believe. But Jesus said that he that believes AND is baptized will be saved.He said to baptize all nations in the name of the the Lord.As many of us as were baptized into Jesus were baptized into His death. This is something that needs to be known, according to this verse. Its a pity how unserious and shallow believers take this baptism. Every believer should be eager to be baptised. And should be ready to scale whatever hurdle or test in front. The eunuch asked, what is hindering me from being baptised? He was ready. Today, many are not ready to go through perhaps baptism class/ discipleship class/ conversion class to be baptized If anything is hindering you from being baptized, please scale through and be baptized.

[color=#990000]Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

When we are baptized, it is symbolic of our burial with Christ into death. We are dead to sin, and we are buried with Christ. And as Christ was resurrected, raised up, we also should be raised up. there should be new life. Every believer ought to have a new life. People around you ought to know that something happened. you also ought to know. There should be a difference. Christ walked in newness of life after His resurrection. And it is the same way we should walk in newness of life. It should be a heaven minded life. A life set on the ascension and on the goal of witnessing. A life that wants to see the Father before any man or woman.

Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Knowing this! There are certain that just must be known. Seek knowledge, grow in grace and in the knowledge of God. God's will is to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. This is done through us. The Bible says My people perish for lack of knowledge. We should not be babies in the faith or in Knowledge. babies do not know. 1Co 14:20 Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men
If you see a billionaire's baby, and a pauper's baby, they are the same simple babies. They do not know. They behave and react almost the same. They do not know what they have or not. But as they grow up, the difference becomes more evident. When we grow in knowledge, we ought to get a point where we KNOW that our old man is crucified with Him. If we do not know, it will barely matter. It is the knowledge that is power. God has done a lot for us and is Word is filled with what should be, the right standard. But experience varies. Our experience as believers varies with knowledge. Experience is different from position. This is a child of a king, that's position. the child may have that information hidden from him. But experience is different. Positionally, our old man is crucified with Christ. Experientially, we need to make it so. Our 'old man' is associated with our flesh. This is the first time out of three that this phrase 'old man' is used in this context. The three times are in three different epistles, once in each. We may assume that the primary audience knew what was meant by that phrase, probably from different and former teachings and messages. The old man is crucified that the body of sin might be destroyed. The old man is associated with the flesh. unfortunately for us, the old man remains with us all through life, as we have to carry that cross daily. The old man is the "I" crucified with Christ. It needs to be crucified. We need to know it, and experience it crucified, that the body of sin may be destroyed. It is when that happens that we will not serve sin.

Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

There you have it again. We are dead. A believer is supposed to be dead, and buried and resurrected with Jesus into a new man, newness of life. the old man stays crucified, that one no die. He has to be put off as it were, and we walk in new life. We were dead in sins, but now we are dead in Christ. 2Ti 2:11 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him: If we are dead with Him, we should be free from sin. We should not be living in sin.

Rom 6:8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
Rom 6:9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
Rom 6:10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.

Now, if we are dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him. All things are possible to him that believes. before conversion we believe, for justification we believe, for prayer we believe, for newness of life we believe. He that comes to God MUST believe. It is when we believe that we experience the realities and privileges of living with Christ. Our knowledge must mix with faith. the Word of God must mix with faith to profit us. Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more, we ought to know that. And in the same vein, we should not die again. We should not sin again. Even so we also should walk in newness of life. He died to sin and lives to God. We should also do the same. We die by baptism and now we should live unto God, for God.

Rom 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

See yourself, consider yourself, think of yourself, count yourself, regard yourself, and include yourself to be dead indeed to sin. And alive to God through Jesus. Amen.

Rom 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

this is plain enough what Paul is driving at. He is showing his audience that they have a work to do, a part to play in their living. Even though God has done so much for us, and given us the gift of righteousness. Still, there needs to be that part of personally appropriating these things. Remember, they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness. It depends on how much you receive. God has made you righteous, but it becomes evident as you make it. You are to let not sin reign in you. It is not God that will do that one. You as an individual must have a purpose of heart, that sin will not reign in this and through this body. Not through lying, not through stealing, not through immorality, not through anger. Sin will not have an in-road. It is a partnership between you and God. your part,Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body.

Rom 6:13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

Do not yield. It means to resist, to not surrender. Do not allow your body to be used as an instrument of unrighteousness. Unrighteousness has been briefly mentioned in chapter one. Do not be involved in maliciousness, envy, hate, disobedience etc. Instead, you now yield to God. God regards your will, you need to yield it to Him. Those that are truly alive from the dead yield to God. You cannot claim to be alive and not yield to God. The proof that you are alive is your yielding to God, as an instrument of righteousness.

My dear friend, you are missing and mixing a lot up. I have tried showing you but you wouldn't listen.

I want to ask you a simple question, please answer sincerely.

When the spirit of death was to come upon Egypt, God told the children of Israel to kill a lamb and put the blood on their doorpost and lintels. The bible makes us understand that the spirit of death will passover at the sight of the blood of the lamb.

I believe we both agree with the above statement. if pharaoh and his family were under the blood, that is in one of the houses that is covered by the blood , would the spirit of death ignore the blood of the lamb ?

Isn't Christ our Passover lamb?

Please address my questions cos I have more observations we can discuss about.

We apologize for the break in transmission

Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Sin shall not have dominion over you. Information/Knowledge is powerful. An information can make one healthy and strong. Another information can weaken you and ruin your day and mood. Imagine hearing that a loved one had an accident, or that you lost a job, or got promoted. These kind of statement change your vigour balance instantly, regardless of whether you have eaten or exercised already. New Information can influence what you do next concerning your career and even your life. It is such huge information that Paul gives in theis verse. "Sin shall not have dominion over you". Note that it does not say that "Sin cannot have dominion over you". Some people teach that sin cannot have dominion over a believer. But the scripture teaches us that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey. For sin shall not have dominion over you, OR Because sin shall not have dominion over you. He is giving reasons for what he stated in earlier verse(s). He had said " Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin". It's up to you, who you yield to, even as a believer. God does not force your will. Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin, because sin shall not have dominion over you. This is news because sin had always had dominion over man. The previous chapter talked about how sin reigned in conjunction with death. Why then, why now should sin not have dominion over you? Because you are not under the law again.
For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
When you were under the law, sin reigned, had dominion. You had to sin, you were literally committing sin like you drink water.But now, things have changed. In the new covenant/agreement/testament, you are not under the law but under grace. Very important to note the UNDER grace. many folks run off with the first part of being 'not under the law'. They do not understand or comply with the second part that states that you are 'under grace'. What the statement simply means is that you now have a different handler/teacher/tutor. You are now under the care of GRACE. Before, you were under the law. Unfortunately, we have christians today who are under none. They do not yield themselves servants to any. But it is by grace that we are saved. you need to be under grace, submit to grace as your new handler. Grace comes with Truth. Grace and truth came through Jesus.
Joh 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
True grace, full grace, real grace, always comes with truth. A grace that does away with Truth is not the real deal. The Word of God is Truth BTW. The new testament christian is not under the law but under grace.

Rom 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

Quite similar to verses 1&2 which we already looked at.The point here still is that we all have the OPTION to sin or not to sin. The option to be under the law or under grace, or even under nothing(other gods for instance). The Scripture teaches us that the law was our school master/tutor when we were children. 'We' here refers to man in the generic. The law was our tutor as children, but in this age, we are no more children but grown up(you may want to breeze through Galatians 4). It's like the progress in school, from primary school to secondary, or tertiary. The law was like our primary school teacher. Many of us FEARED the primary school teacher. Parents would often threaten children with their teacher. Primary school teaching moulded us as it were. And it was quite pesky too and very detailed. That's the way the law is. Come to school with brown sandals, no white, no black. Your socks must be worn and should be white, do your classwork, put your head on the table and sleep. Don't put eraser in your ears. Don't play with sand etc. there were so many laws, even when you are doing right, you're not that sure you won't receive some stern 'warning' when the tutor shows up. That is what been under the law is like. But when you come under grace, it's a higher level. Even the name of your school has 'High' inside. you've graduated, "passed out". You now have a new teacher/tutor, grace. This tutor leads you and mentors you as it were.
Shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. Do we now begin to skip classes, or play with sand, or put pencil in your nose? God forbid. Nobody will exactly tell you these in your new class, but it don't mean you do them. You may not see grace so detailed in what you wear, or what age you marry, or whether you smoke cocaine, but we do not go into sin. Sin is the transgression of the law according to 1Jn3v4
1Jo 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
The point of this verse is What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law. In plainer words, What then? shall we transgress the law, because we are not under the law, but under grace? The answer was given incase you do not know it.

Image123: We apologize for the break in transmission


Sin shall not have dominion over you. Information/Knowledge is powerful. An information can make one healthy and strong. Another information can weaken you and ruin your day and mood. Imagine hearing that a loved one had an accident, or that you lost a job, or got promoted. These kind of statement change your vigour balance instantly, regardless of whether you have eaten or exercised already. New Information can influence what you do next concerning your career and even your life. It is such huge information that Paul gives in theis verse. "Sin shall not have dominion over you". Note that it does not say that "Sin cannot have dominion over you". Some people teach that sin cannot have dominion over a believer. But the scripture teaches us that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey. For sin shall not have dominion over you, OR Because sin shall not have dominion over you. He is giving reasons for what he stated in earlier verse(s). He had said " Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin". It's up to you, who you yield to, even as a believer. God does not force your will. Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin, because sin shall not have dominion over you. This is news because sin had always had dominion over man. The previous chapter talked about how sin reigned in conjunction with death. Why then, why now should sin not have dominion over you? Because you are not under the law again.
For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
When you were under the law, sin reigned, had dominion. You had to sin, you were literally committing sin like you drink water.But now, things have changed. In the new covenant/agreement/testament, you are not under the law but under grace. Very important to note the UNDER grace. many folks run off with the first part of being 'not under the law'. They do not understand or comply with the second part that states that you are 'under grace'. What the statement simply means is that you now have a different handler/teacher/tutor. You are now under the care of GRACE. Before, you were under the law. Unfortunately, we have christians today who are under none. They do not yield themselves servants to any. But it is by grace that we are saved. you need to be under grace, submit to grace as your new handler. Grace comes with Truth. Grace and truth came through Jesus.
Joh 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
True grace, full grace, real grace, always comes with truth. A grace that does away with Truth is not the real deal. The Word of God is Truth BTW. The new testament christian is not under the law but under grace.


Quite similar to verses 1&2 which we already looked at.The point here still is that we all have the OPTION to sin or not to sin. The option to be under the law or under grace, or even under nothing(other gods for instance). The Scripture teaches us that the law was our school master/tutor when we were children. 'We' here refers to man in the generic. The law was our tutor as children, but in this age, we are no more children but grown up(you may want to breeze through Galatians 4). It's like the progress in school, from primary school to secondary, or tertiary. The law was like our primary school teacher. Many of us FEARED the primary school teacher. Parents would often threaten children with their teacher. Primary school teaching moulded us as it were. And it was quite pesky too and very detailed. That's the way the law is. Come to school with brown sandals, no white, no black. Your socks must be worn and should be white, do your classwork, put your head on the table and sleep. Don't put eraser in your ears. Don't play with sand etc. there were so many laws, even when you are doing right, you're not that sure you won't receive some stern 'warning' when the tutor shows up. That is what been under the law is like. But when you come under grace, it's a higher level. Even the name of your school has 'High' inside. you've graduated, "passed out". You now have a new teacher/tutor, grace. This tutor leads you and mentors you as it were.
Shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. Do we now begin to skip classes, or play with sand, or put pencil in your nose? God forbid. Nobody will exactly tell you these in your new class, but it don't mean you do them. You may not see grace so detailed in what you wear, or what age you marry, or whether you smoke cocaine, but we do not go into sin. Sin is the transgression of the law according to 1Jn3v4
1Jo 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
The point of this verse is What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law. In plainer words, What then? shall we transgress the law, because we are not under the law, but under grace? The answer was given incase you do not know it.

Thanks for making the "Not under the law but under grace aspect clearer to me". My understanding is that by the help of the Holy Spirit we as Christians are empowered by grace to keep the law.

Bidam: Thanks for making the "Not under the law but under grace aspect clearer to me". My understanding is that by the help of the Holy Spirit we as Christians are empowered by grace to keep the law.

In other words Jesus died so I can have the grace to observe the law of Moses and if I can't I am doomed right?

shdemidemi:

In other words Jesus died so I can have the grace to observe the law of Moses and if I can't I am doomed right?

Did you see the scriptures i quoted on ichuka thread about keeping God's commandments

Bidam: Did you see the scriptures i quoted on ichuka thread about keeping God's commandments

Please answer my question if you can. Say you cannot like you did in the Hagin site if you can't. Thanks

shdemidemi:

Please answer my question if you can. Say you cannot like you did in the Hagin site if you can't. Thanks

I have answered your question by asking you that pertinent question Mr.man. If Jesus was doing away with the ten commandments, why would He have spent so much time teaching people to keep them and allowed so much space in the New Testament to be devoted to them?

Bidam: Thanks for making the "Not under the law but under grace aspect clearer to me". My understanding is that by the help of the Holy Spirit we as Christians are empowered by grace to keep the law.

You're welcome my good friend. Thank God for grace. Indeed we can do all things through Christ our strength.

shdemidemi:

In other words Jesus died so I can have the grace to observe the law of Moses and if I can't I am doomed right?

You keep putting the cart before the horsr as it were. Weve talked so much on justification that i do not expect these kind of question from you. Keeping God's commandments does not justify you or make you righteous. It is faith that justifies us, and that living faith produces the work of obeying God.

God bless you for sharing that you have learned Image.

I do however have some reservations regarding the text below:

Image123: Rom 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written. The just shall live by faith.

Notice the phrase "as it is written". It is written is a guiding principle for Christ, and for all His true followers. The phrase is referring to the authority and inerrant authenticity of what is written in the Holy Scriptures(the Old Testament to be precise). The Old Testament Scriptures was the first century christian's more sure Word that they took heed to. It wasn't some abandoned book for old-school jews. It was the compulsory tenet and creed of every believer, the Jews first and also the Gentiles. It was the higher authority that the apostles used in settling their arguments if any.

They 'took heed' to those Scriptures, only in line with Paul (and others) teaching. Without this guidance, anyone taking the Old Testament as the 'sure Word' as it were would effectively be adopting Judaism. If they simply took it as a 'compulsory' tenet, then they would have to offer sacrifices in Jerusalem, be circumcised and obey all the laws of Moses. But we know the early Christians did not do that - those that did were corrected.

It's worth making this clarification as Paul went to great lengths to 'renounce' his previous Judaism, in order to ensure his readers never took the OT as compulsory tenets and creeds. The test Paul held people to was not conforming to the 'scripture' (or OT in this particular instance) but conformance with the gospel.

Paul especially notes this in Galatians 2: 14 When I saw that they were not acting in line with the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas in front of them all, “You are a Jew, yet you live like a Gentile and not like a Jew. How is it, then, that you force Gentiles to follow Jewish customs?

I agree the disciples often used the OT to resolve arguments, but not strictly in the way you imply. They took inspiration from the OT where applicable, but ultimately relied on the Holy Spirit to show them how they should live in practice - as you said, the bar was raised.

Image123:

You keep putting the cart before the horsr as it were. Weve talked so much on justification that i do not expect these kind of question from you. Keeping God's commandments does not justify you or make you righteous. It is faith that justifies us, and that living faith produces the work of obeying God.

No..No..No I don't think I have ever agreed with you on most things you try to infer and add to what is in the book.

I asked you a simple question that you have refused to answer, Its strange that the same you would say we have talked so much on this issue.

I can as well ask you again.....I want to ask you a simple question, please answer sincerely.

When the spirit of death was to come upon Egypt, God told the children of Israel to kill a lamb and put the blood on their doorpost and lintels. The bible makes us understand that the spirit of death will passover at the sight of the blood of the lamb.

I believe we both agree with the above statement. if pharaoh and his family were under the blood, that is in one of the houses that is covered by the blood , would the spirit of death ignore the blood of the lamb ?

Isn't Christ our Passover lamb?

Please address my questions cos I have more observations we can discuss about.[/quote]

Bidam: I have answered your question by asking you that pertinent question Mr.man. If Jesus was doing away with the ten commandments, why would He have spent so much time teaching people to keep them and allowed so much space in the New Testament to be devoted to them?

In other words the law of life in Christ is the same or in support/ accord with the law of condemnation,sin and death. Right?

Thank you debosky for your observation. I have told Image that he does not have what it takes to do an expose of any kind on Romans. How do you read Romans, talkless of teach it, and still be bound to obsolete laws like tithing. It is still this false understanding that is making him think that saints of old took everything that is taught in the OT. If this is so, like you pointed out, why did Paul write all the letters he wrote? Why did he write Galatians?!

shdemidemi:

In other words the law of life in Christ is the same or in support/ accord with the law of condemnation,sin and death. Right?

I am tired of going back and forth with you..Your straw man arguments will get you nowhere.Good night.

debosky: God bless you for sharing that you have learned Image.

I do however have some reservations regarding the text below:



They 'took heed' to those Scriptures, only in line with Paul (and others) teaching. Without this guidance, anyone taking the Old Testament as the 'sure Word' as it were would effectively be adopting Judaism. If they simply took it as a 'compulsory' tenet, then they would have to offer sacrifices in Jerusalem, be circumcised and obey all the laws of Moses. But we know the early Christians did not do that - those that did were corrected.

It's worth making this clarification as Paul went to great lengths to 'renounce' his previous Judaism, in order to ensure his readers never took the OT as compulsory tenets and creeds. The test Paul held people to was not conforming to the 'scripture' (or OT in this particular instance) but conformance with the gospel.

Paul especially notes this in Galatians 2: 14 When I saw that they were not acting in line with the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas in front of them all, “You are a Jew, yet you live like a Gentile and not like a Jew. How is it, then, that you force Gentiles to follow Jewish customs?

I agree the disciples often used the OT to resolve arguments, but not strictly in the way you imply. They took inspiration from the OT where applicable, but ultimately relied on the Holy Spirit to show them how they should live in practice - as you said, the bar was raised.

oga long time. Clarification accepted, you put it better than i did. Thanks.

shdemidemi:

No..No..No I don't think I have ever agreed with you on most things you try to infer and add to what is in the book.

I asked you a simple question that you have refused to answer, Its strange that the same you would say we have talked so much on this issue.

I can as well ask you again.....I want to ask you a simple question, please answer sincerely.

When the spirit of death was to come upon Egypt, God told the children of Israel to kill a lamb and put the blood on their doorpost and lintels. The bible makes us understand that the spirit of death will passover at the sight of the blood of the lamb.

I believe we both agree with the above statement. if pharaoh and his family were under the blood, that is in one of the houses that is covered by the blood , would the spirit of death ignore the blood of the lamb ?

Isn't Christ our Passover lamb?

Please address my questions cos I have more observations we can discuss about.

i categorically and specifically told you that your questions had little or no bearings on the thread but were more of a diversion. i have taken a lot of time and space to answer many of your questions on this same thread. If you have issues concerning Romans, kindly present them here. If you have other issues, kindly open another thread and refer me to it, thanks.