Personally I think its unfortunate that we are debating IF Jesus Christ is GOD, when EVEN the Church is GOD. And yes, you read me right. I believe that the root of the problem is because we don't understand the meaning of the word GOD or ELOHIM. God or Elohim is not a person, it is a title and a nature, under the Law, the old covenant, it was a title owned by and/or conferred by the LORD (YHWH or Yahovah) on people he sent with His word or He gave the right of judgment, then under the new covenant it became a nature imputed to those born of His WORD.

In Exodus 7v1, the Lord said to Moses 'See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh'. 'God' there is the hebrew 'elohim' and the LORD conferred it on Moses after He sent him with His word. Then Exodus 21v5-6 'And if the servant shall say I love my master, my wife, and my children, I will not go out free. Then his master shall bring him unto the judges... The word 'judges' is also the hebrew 'elohim'. And it was conferred on people given the right of judgment by God, eg Priests and Elders in Israel. Also check Exodus 22v8-9.

Then Psalm 82v1-2 'God standeth in the congregation of the mighty, He judgeth among the gods. How long will ye judge unjustly...'. 'God and gods' is the same 'elohim' in that verse. And then the very popular verse 6, 'I have said Ye are gods'. Same 'elohim' there. Some christians might say it is small letter 'g' god in all these verses. But let me blow your mind wider. Small or big letter 'g' is purely english, in hebrew, 'elohim' is 'elohim', no small or big letter. So when the scriptures call people elohim, it uses the same letter it uses when it calls 'elohim' in other verses, even for big letter 'G' GOD. All these shows the way elohim was used under the law as a title conferred; before it now became a nature imputed under grace, we will go there shortly. Then this is a verse that best shows this difference between YHWH as a person and elohim as a title, 1Sam 2v25 'If one man sin against another, the judge (Elohim) shall judge him. But if a man sin against the LORD (Yahovah), who shall intreat for him'. This shows the difference between the person of the Father and the title elohim, which is used by the LORD and also conferred by Him.

Then when Jesus came He said 'I and My Father are one' John 10v30. I've heard some christians say he was talking about oneness in terms of purpose and mission. Emphatically NO! He was talking to jews who knew the scriptures in Deut 6v4 'Hear, O Israel, The LORD our God is one LORD (YHWH)'. So when Jesus said I and my Father are ONE, he meant I and my Father are JEHOVAH (The Self-Existent One). So Jesus didn't even call himself elohim, He called himself YHWH. Calling himself elohim would have even been bearable to the jews 'coz there were people who God conferred the title on under the law, but to the Jews calling yourself YHWH was going too far. That was why the Jews wanted to stone him. So God is even a title too little for Jesus, that's a title for the Church (those born of the Word), Jesus is Jehovah, just like the Father.

Moving on, the Jews reply Jesus in John 10v33 For a good work we stone thee not, but for blasphemy and because that thou being a man, makest thyself God'. Jesus replied them and said in v34-35 Is it not written in your law, I said Ye are Gods? If He called them Gods unto whom the word of God came, and the scriptures cannot be broken. In other words, if those sent with the word of God are called Gods, how much more those BORN OF THE WORD (the church)? And how much much much more THE WORD HIMSELF (Jesus). So hear this, The Father, The Word, The Church (through the Spirit) are Elohim. But only the Father and the Word are Jehovah or YHWH (Self-Existent) as stated by Christ in John 5v26 For as the Father hath life in himself (Self-existent), so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself (self-existent).

Some might argue that if Jesus is God, how come he still prays to the father. Simple! If God is a title then it will definitly be in heirachy. The authority and Godhood of the one who begat (Father) will definitely be above that of the one begotten (Jesus). And the authority of the first begotten will also be above the others begotten (Church). Even though all of them are Elohim. Its like a pride, in a pride all the males are lions, but there are daddy lion, Sons lion and baby lion. Maybe even grandpa lion, they are all lions but authority-wise they differ. Christ is elohim, and even, Jehovah like the Father but he's still subject to the Father, just like the church is elohim (by being born of the word) but also subject to Christ. That's why Jesus said in John 14v28 'For my Father is greater than I'. The Father prays to no one, Jesus prays to the Father, and the Church, through the Spirit, prays to the Father in the name of Jesus. All elohim, but different authority levels.

So let's rest this debate of whether Jesus is elohim or not. Jesus is more than elohim, he is Jehovah, like the Father. What we should be debating is whether the church is elohim or not. And we are by the way, so let's even rest that as well.

Confused Scholar _ Can You get a scripture verse that says "... We have But ONE GOD and ONE mediator, Jesus Christ" _ ? _ or do you want me to get that for you? Besides Jesus himself Never said he is God_ where are you getting all these from_?


He taught Men, NOT to worship him but Jehovah his Father_ Get ur bible Brother Read this following Verses Matt. 4:10 _- "Jesus said to him, Go away satan . For it is written It is Jehovah your God you must worship and to him alone you must render sacred sacrifice"

John 20:17- I am ascending to my father and your father and your father and to my God your God

John 14:28 - The father is greater than I am

Phil 2:5-8 : He gave no consideration to equal to God...but he emptied himself...

1 cor. 11:3 _ ... The head of christ is God.

Bunch of truths in the Bible_ read right _ you need not be taught by one_Bible is clear enough on this _

PLEASE don't constitute Yerimalike attitude here_Dont confuse people with your baseless reasons

When scripture said in John 10v34 Ye are gods, what does that mean in your english? Explain that. And when the bible said in John 1v1 'And the Word was God', how do you interprete that? And the passage you quoted in 1Cor 11v3 that 'the head of Christ is God' you cleverly omitted the part that says 'the head of the woman is the man'. So if the man is the head, does it make the woman a lesser human than the man Your own answer would help you understand how that the head of Christ is God, doesn't make him any less one.

And next time, express your views without bitterness. Bitterness is a sign of agitation. It defeats the essense of edification.

So the Jews that knew that they have one God did not even they are Gods and wanted to stone Jesus out of ignorance.

We are one with Christ just as he is one with the Father. So what do you call us then? Don't give God's name to any other because of what the Jews are thinking.

You ONLY interpreted one bible quotations_ let me get the rest_ what about John 14:28 _ get me a lead on that pleaseeee!!!

And you also said Jesus is not to be worshipped? For real? Hebrews 1v6 'And again when He bringeth in the firstborn into the world, He saith, And let all the angels of God worship him'. Also Jesus said in John 5v23 'That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father'. All things due to the Father is due to the Son, by the Father's own appointment.

And that Jesus called the Father 'My God' doesn't make him any less God too. The people that God told 'Ye are Gods', isn't God their God too. The scripture is easy to understand when prejudice and sentiments are placed aside and we let the scripture say what it said instead of what we want it to say. That's why after Jesus challenged them with the 'Ye are gods' scripture, he said 'and the scripture cannot be broken'. That is, don't cut what it means into what your head can handle and don't deflate its interpretation into what your mind can comprehend. Ye are gods means Yea are gods. Period.

iamSi: You ONLY interpreted one bible quotations_ let me get the rest_ what about John 14:28 _ get me a lead on that pleaseeee!!!

Does the Father being greater than the Son mean the Son isn't God. I repeat empatically No. He that begat will always have more authority than him that is begotten. And if you've read my post whole heartedly you would have seen I explained the issue there. And I'm waiting for your explanation on John 1v1 'And the Word was God'

Boomark: So the Jews that knew that they have one God did not even they are Gods and wanted to stone Jesus out of ignorance.

We are one with Christ just as he is one with the Father. So what do you call us then? Don't give God's name to any other because of what the Jews are thinking.

The jews know that the scripture called people Gods, but no one was ever Jehovah except Jehovah. By the way judges that were called elohim and even Moses too, did that amount to blasphemy?

Why God’s Son is called “the Word.” A title often describes the function served or the duty performed by the bearer. So it was with the title Kal-Hatzé, meaning “the voice or word of the king,” that was given an Abyssinian officer. Based on his travels from 1768 to 1773, James Bruce describes the duties of the Kal-Hatzé as follows. He stood by a window covered with a curtain through which, unseen inside, the king spoke to this officer. He then conveyed the message to the persons or party concerned. Thus the Kal-Hatzé acted as the word or voice of the Abyssinian king.—Travels to Discover the Source of the Nile, London, 1790, Vol. III, p. 265; Vol. IV, p. 76.
Recall, too, that God made Aaron the word or “mouth” of Moses, saying: “He must speak for you to the people; and it must occur that he will serve as a mouth to you, and you will serve as God to him.”—Ex 4:16.
In a similar way God’s firstborn Son doubtless served as the Mouth, or Spokesman, for his Father, the great King of Eternity. He was God’s Word of communication for conveying information and instructions to the Creator’s other spirit and human sons. It is reasonable to think that prior to Jesus’ coming to earth, on many of the occasions when God communicated with humans he used the Word as his angelic mouthpiece. (Ge 16:7-11; 22:11; 31:11; Ex 3:2-5; Jg 2:1-4; 6:11, 12; 13:3) Since the angel that guided the Israelites through the wilderness had ‘Jehovah’s name within him,’ he may have been God’s Son, the Word.—Ex 23:20-23; see JESUS CHRIST (Prehuman Existence).
Showing that Jesus continued to serve as his Father’s Spokesman, or Word, during his earthly ministry, he told his listeners: “I have not spoken out of my own impulse, but the Father himself who sent me has given me a commandment as to what to tell and what to speak. . . . Therefore the things I speak, just as the Father has told me them, so I speak them.”—Joh 12:49, 50; 14:10; 7:16, 17.

ayoku777:

Does the Father being greater than the Son mean the Son isn't God. I repeat empatically No. He that begat will always have more authority than him that is begotten. And if you've read my post whole heartedly you would have seen I explained the issue there. And I'm waiting for your explanation on John 1v1 'And the Word was God'

See all you went through to rationalize your interpretation of 'The Word was God'. There's no ambiguity in this scripture, it is straight forward, the greek is 'Logos en Theos', the same Theos used for 'And the Word was with God'. It doesn't mean anything other than the way it was said, don't try to sound esoteric.

The scripture is easy when integrity is applied to its interpretation. Thomas after He touched the resurrected Christ said in John 20v28 'My Lord and My God'. And Jesus replied in v29 Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed. Jesus acknowledged the confession of Thomas 'coz He is God. He didn't say No Thomas, I'm your Lord, but the Father is your God.

Sometimes I think we are saying the same thing in these trinity debates.

But if we disagree, please can either side show me how a wrong concetptualization of the person God and Jesus actually affects our devotion as believers.

DrummaBoy: Sometimes I think we are saying the same thing in these trinity debates.

But if we disagree, please can either side show me how a wrong concetptualization of the person God and Jesus actually affects our devotion as believers.

Honestly brother, believing Jesus is the Son of God and faith in his death and resurrection is the fundamentals of the faith. But I also strongly believe that a perfect understanding of who Christ really is is needed for quickly attaining the measure of the stature of his fulness.

When I saw the title of your post- I said that there a lot of mad men running lose on nairaland these days and then I decided to read through and realised that you are making a lot of sense. Ill bookmark this page and do more research on this food for thought. Nice one poster.

Thanks @Otipoju

ayoku777: And you also said Jesus is not to be worshipped? For real? Hebrews 1v6 'And again when He bringeth in the firstborn into the world, He saith, And let all the angels of God worship him'. Also Jesus said in John 5v23 'That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father'. All things due to the Father is due to the Son, by the Father's own appointment.

And that Jesus called the Father 'My God' doesn't make him any less God too. The people that God told 'Ye are Gods', isn't God their God too. The scripture is easy to understand when prejudice and sentiments are placed aside and we let the scripture say what it said instead of what we want it to say. That's why after Jesus challenged them with the 'Ye are gods' scripture, he said 'and the scripture cannot be broken'. That is, don't cut what it means into what your head can handle and don't deflate its interpretation into what your mind can comprehend. Ye are gods means Yea are gods. Period.

Worshiping Jesus is mere stupidity. You are not even sure the stories are real. I personally think the Jesus story is a metaphor for the Sun. So whether you are aware or not,you worship the Sun. It is not a bad thing to do but at least you should be aware.

otipoju: When I saw the title of your post- I said that there a lot of mad men running lose on nairaland these days and then I decided to read through and realised that you are making a lot of sense. Ill bookmark this page and do more research on this food for thought. Nice one poster.

Hehe, thanks. I'm glad you read through and didn't just judge by the topic. Needed a topic that would arouse curiousity. And please by all means do more personal study and get back to me on your views too and please also read through the counter opinions of people commenting as well. Truth should not be afraid of being challenged unless its not truth.

Thanks again

ifeness:

Worshiping Jesus is mere stupidity. You are not even sure the stories are real. I personally think the Jesus story is a metaphor for the Sun. So whether you are aware or not,you worship the Sun. It is not a bad thing to do but at least you should be aware.

Hmmm obviously you're not even born again. This thread is between people who believe Jesus is Lord and the Son of God but not God and those who believe He is God. You're on neither side, but you will soon be IJN. You're welcome to read through though, I don't underestimate the Holy Spirit.

@ ayoku777, I disagree with you on the point that "Jesus is Jehovah" that title is for God the father alone. If you said Jesus is god (elohim as you called it ) i can agree with you for the fact that God called we human being gods because we have made by God (father) to have dominion over other creatures and Jesus had made by God also to have dominion over angels and all other creatures. Read Daniel 7v 9-14. and in Matthew 28 v18 Jesus says " all power is given unto me in in heaven and in earth" the question is who give Jesus power if not the only mighty God ? ( father) that shows that God the father is greater than Jesus as himself said " he that send me is greater than me"

I and my father we are one John 10 v 30, does not me that Jesus is thesame with God the father. I think Jesus used that statement to explain the closeness between him and God. If a house wife said i and my husband are one, wha she mean is i can act on behalf of my husband. That statement does not make her a man or the head of her husband or head of family.

I don't think there is a verse in Bible where Jesus called himself Jeovah. That tittle is for God the father alone. Don't let us say what Jesus did not say it is very risky .

The fact is that God the fathe is the only suprem God in heaven and on earth.God called Moses pharaoh god because God has given power to Moses over pharaoh, we human being are gods over animals for God has given us power over them, Jesus is god to human being because God has given him power over us, God the father is God over everything include Jesus because he has power over Jesus and everything he created.

Ayomivic: @ ayoku777, I disagree with you on the point that "Jesus is Jehovah" that title is for God the father alone. If you said Jesus is god (elohim as you called it ) i can agree with you for the fact that God called we human being gods because we have made by God (father) to have dominion over other creatures and Jesus had made by God also to have dominion over angels and all other creatures. Read Daniel 7v 9-14. and in Matthew 28 v18 Jesus says " all power is given unto me in in heaven and in earth" the question is who give Jesus power if not the only mighty God ? ( father) that shows that God the father is greater than Jesus as himself said " he that send me is greater than me"

I and my father we are one John 10 v 30, does not me that Jesus is thesame with God the father. I think Jesus used that statement to explain the closeness between him and God. If a house wife said i and my husband are one, wha she mean is i can act on behalf of my husband. That statement does not make her a man or the head of her husband or head of family.

I don't think there is a verse in Bible where Jesus called himself Jeovah. That tittle is for God the father alone. Don't let us say what Jesus did not say it is very risky .

The fact is that God the fathe is the only suprem God in heaven and on earth.God called Moses pharaoh god because God has given power to Moses over pharaoh, we human being are gods over animals for God has given us power over them, Jesus is god to human being because God has given him power over us, God the father is God over everything include Jesus because he has power over Jesus and everything he created.

We are partly saying the same thing. I never said Jesus is on the same level of Authority with the Father, I said Jesus is God like the Father is God. If scripture calls us God, does that put us on the same level of authority with Christ? NO.

Where we are mixing it up is that we want to reserve the title 'God' for just the Father, but God is also the title of everyone born of The Father, which includes the Word and the Church.

As for the title Jehovah, it means Self-existent and that is what the Father has also made His Son besides being elohim. Jesus is also self-existent or if you will, life-generating just like the Father, John 5v26 'As the Father hath life in Himself, so hath He given to the Son to Have life in Himself'. The Church is elohim, because we are born of the word, but we are not self-existent, we live of off the life of Christ, that's why Christ said in John 14v19 'because I live, ye shall live also'.

So I maintain Christ is both Elohim and Jehovah, and yes, as you rightly said, it is by the authority and appointment of the Father.

christinsanity in display...


Now Jesus is Jehovah.......confused christians

FOLYKAZE: christinsanity in display...


Now Jesus is Jehovah.......confused christians

Naaaaa wa o
god's perfect word.

ayoku777:

The jews know that the scripture called people Gods, but no one was ever Jehovah except Jehovah. By the way judges that were called elohim and even Moses too, did that amount to blasphemy?

You need to calm down. You linked the name of God to Jesus from "I and my are One." by that you want us to believe that:
Jesus is Jehovah

now that we are one with Jesus as he is one with the Father, does that not mean we bear the same name?

Boomark:

You need to calm down. You linked the name of God to Jesus from "I and my are One." by that you want us to believe that:
Jesus is Jehovah

now that we are one with Jesus as he is one with the Father, does that not mean we bear the same name?

Who is God and who is Jesus? The Father is God and Jesus is God. And 'I and my Father are one' isn't the Only scripture I use to draw that conclusion that Jesus is Jehovah. You're right, that scripture is not self-conclusive in drawing that conlusion, but I used other references. Read my entire posts with an open mind, not just the one you can argue with. Thanks though, your counter opinion is also enlightening.

You cannot rationally explain God, the day u do he ceases to be God...
Neither can u fully fathom Jesus, for he is the very uncreated creator, for those who know him fractionaly...

joe4christ: You cannot rationally explain God, the day u do he ceases to be God...
Neither can u fully fathom Jesus, for he is the very uncreated creator, for those who know him fractionaly...

I get what you mean, increasing the depth of our knowledge and understanding of Christ and beholding His glory will be what we spend the rest of eternity doing. And its best we get started from now.

ayoku777:

I get what you mean, increasing the depth of our knowledge and understanding of Christ and beholding His glory will be what we spend the rest of eternity doing. And its best we get started from now.

Profound truth...The day man claims to know it all is the day he starts dying.

I accept ur views ayoku777 except that jesus is jehovah. Jesus is not d father(jehovah) but d word( son of God) that proceeded from jevovah. That where trinity misses it.

ayoku777:

Who is God and who is Jesus? The Father is God and Jesus is God. And 'I and my Father are one' isn't the Only scripture I use to draw that conclusion that Jesus is Jehovah. You're right, that scripture is not self-conclusive in drawing that conlusion, but I used other references. Read my entire posts with an open mind, not just the one you can argue with. Thanks though, your counter opinion is also enlightening.

Apart from that "I and my Father are one" there is no other that clearly support that Jesus is Jehovah. Show me and i will raise unanswerable question(s) for it.

I can see fake prophets around...Bi... "We have one God, the Father" clearly written. These are things you should know. Don't mind those that insert 3 persons in one God, who tell you you cannot understand God, those who cannot show you where 3 persons are referred to as One God in the bible.

@ davonny and @ Boomark

Thanks a lot brothers. I personally believe both Trinitarians and AntiTrinitarians are yet to fully grasp this truth. I prefer to take the middle ground on this.

I too don't believe in the 'Three persons in one God' view of Trinitarians. But its equally true and clear from scripture that the Father is not the only Elohim in the Godhead, there is also the Word and the Church (those born of the Word).

On the issue of Christ is Jehovah, will definitely do more study. One grace we all need is the humility not to be dogmatic on a revelation that is still unfolding. That pride is the beginning of heresis. Will do more study, please do the same. Thanks a lot Davonny and Boomark

Bidam: Profound truth...The day man claims to know it all is the day he starts dying.

So true, couldn't have been said better. Thanks

God bless u my brother for the fact that u agree to do more studies. U see trinitarians have done more damages to d church than building d church.
let's remember that d church is built on this truth (jesus is the son of d living God) and d gate of hell shall not prevail againt it. But trinitarians are pulling her down with their 3 gods. Can u imagine d fraction,confusion and division they have caused in the church. So my brother let's be careful.

As I said, I don't like being dogmatic on a revelation that is still unfolding. I knew in my spirit that Christ is one with the Father in power, purpose and principles; by the authority and appointment of the Father. But I didn't have self-conclusive scriptures to back up all the truths, all I had was just the witness in my spirit; and you don't establish doctrine with just witness in your spirit, 'coz anyone can stand and say he has a 'witness' in his spirit. You need both the witness of the Spirit and the Scriptures to establish doctrine.

So I retracted some of my earlier comments and did more prayerful study as I promised. And God put these scriptures in my heart to that effect:

JESUS IS GOD (Elohim)
Isaiah 9v6 'For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given, and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, THE MIGHTY GOD, THE EVERLASTING FATHER, The Prince of Peace.'

John 1v1 'In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, AND THE WORD WAS GOD.'

JESUS IS JEHOVAH (YHWH)
Jeremiah 23v5-6 'Behold the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth. In his day Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely, and this is HIS NAME whereby he shall be called, THE LORD (YHWH) OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS (TSIDKENU).'

JESUS IS TO BE HONOURED
John 5v23 'That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father.'

JESUS IS TO BE WORSHIPPED
Hebrews 1v6 'And again when He bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, He saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.'

JESUS IS TO BE SERVED
Daniel 7v13-14 'I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before Him. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, SHOULD SERVE HIM.'

Infact, from my study(still ongoing) the only names of the Father that Jesus was not called are ANCIENT OF DAYS and MOST HIGH. But other names from Lord (Adonai), God(Elohim), Jehovah(YHWH) to even God's most intimate name, Father(Abba) are all names that Christ was called in scripture and also answers and functions with by the authority of the Father.

So I maintain again, that Christ is God and Jehovah just like the Father; and also He is One with the Father in power, purpose and principles; by the authority of the Father.

Be blessed.