Did Jesus Claim to be the God of Abraham & Moses?

Jesus continually referred to himself in ways that confounded his listeners. As Piper notes, Jesus made the audacious statement, “Before Abraham was, I AM.

He told Martha and others around her, “I AM the resurrection and the life; he who believes in me, though he is dead, yet shall he live.
Likewise, Jesus would make statements like, “I AM the light of the world,

“I AM the only way to God,” or, “I AM the “truth.”These and several other of his claims were preceded by the sacred words for God, “I AM” (ego eimi). What did Jesus mean by such statements, and what is the significance or the term, “I AM”?

Once again, we must go back to context. In the Hebrew Scriptures, when Moses asked God His name at the burning bush, God answered, “I AM.” He was revealing to Moses that He is the one and only God who is outside of time and has always existed. Incredibly, Jesus was using these holy words to describe himself. The question is, “Why?”

Since the time of Moses, no practicing Jew would ever refer to himself or anyone else by “I AM.” As a result, Jesus’ “I AM” claims infuriated the Jewish leaders. One time, for example, some leaders explained to Jesus why they were trying to kill him: “Because you, a mere man, have made yourself God.”

Jesus’ usage of God’s name greatly angered the religious leaders. The point is that these Old Testament scholars knew exactly what he was saying—he was claiming to be God, the Creator of the universe. It is only this claim that would have brought the accusation of blasphemy. To read into the text that Jesus claimed to be God is clearly warranted, not simply by his words, but also by their reaction to those words.
C. S. Lewis initially considered Jesus a myth. But this literary genius, who knew myths well, concluded that Jesus had to have been a real person. Furthermore, as Lewis investigated the evidence for Jesus, he became convinced that not only was Jesus real, but he was unlike any man who had ever lived. Lewis writes,

“Then comes the real shock,’ wrote Lewis: ‘Among these Jews there suddenly turns up a man who goes about talking as if He was God. He claims to forgive sins. He says He always existed. He says He is coming to judge the world at the end of time.”
To Lewis, Jesus’ claims were simply too radical and profound to have been made by an ordinary teacher or religious leader.

What Kind of God?

Some have argued that Jesus was only claiming to be part of God. But the idea that we are all part of God, and that within us is the seed of divinity, is simply not a possible meaning for Jesus’ words and actions. Such thoughts are revisionist, foreign to his teaching, foreign to his stated beliefs, and foreign to his disciples’ understanding of his teaching.

Jesus taught that he is God in the way the Jews understood God and the way the Hebrew Scriptures portrayed God, not in the way the New Age movement understands God. Neither Jesus nor his audience had been weaned on Star Wars, and so when they spoke of God, they were not speaking of cosmic forces. It’s simply bad history to redefine what Jesus meant by the concept of God.
Lewis explains,
Now let us get this clear. Among Pantheists, like the Indians, anyone might say that he was a part of God, or one with God….But this man, since He was a Jew, could not mean that kind of God. God, in their language, meant the Being outside the world, who had made it and was infinitely different from anything else. And when you have grasped that, you will see that what this man said was, quite simply, the most shocking thing that has ever been uttered by human lips.

Certainly there are those who accept Jesus as a great teacher, yet are unwilling to call him God. As a Deist, we’ve seen that Thomas Jefferson had no problem accepting Jesus’ teachings on morals and ethics while denying his deity.

but as we’ve said, and will explore further, if Jesus was not who he claimed to be, then we must examine some other alternatives, none of which would make him a great moral teacher. Lewis, argued, “I am trying here to prevent anyone from saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: ‘I’m ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don’t accept his claim to be God.’ That is the one thing we must not say.”
In his quest for truth, Lewis knew that he could not have it both ways with the identity of Jesus. Either Jesus was who he claimed to be—God in the flesh—or his claims were false. And if they were false, Jesus could not be a great moral teacher. He would either be lying intentionally or he would be a lunatic with a God complex.

Could Jesus Have Been Lying?

Even Jesus’ harshest critics rarely have called him a liar. That label certainly doesn’t fit with Jesus’ high moral and ethical teaching. But if Jesus isn’t who he claimed to be, we must consider the option that he was intentionally misleading everyone.

One of the best-known and most influential political works of all time was written by Niccolò Machiavelli in 1532. In his classic, The Prince, Machiavelli exalts power, success, image, and efficiency above loyalty, faith, and honesty. According to Machiavelli, lying is okay if it accomplishes a political end.

Could Jesus Christ have built his entire ministry upon a lie just to gain power, fame, or success? In fact, the Jewish opponents of Jesus were constantly trying to expose him as a fraud and liar. They would barrage him with questions in attempts to trip him up and make him contradict himself. Yet Jesus responded with remarkable consistency.

The question we must deal with is: What could possibly motivate Jesus to live his entire life as a lie? He taught that God was opposed to lying and hypocrisy, so he wouldn’t have been doing it to please his Father. He certainly didn’t lie for his followers’ benefit, since all but one were martyred rather than renouncing his Lordship.

Could Jesus Have Been Self-Deceived?

Albert Schweitzer, who was awarded the Nobel Prize in 1952 for his humanitarian efforts, had his own views about Jesus. Schweitzer concluded that insanity was behind Jesus’ claim to be God. In other words, Jesus was wrong about his claims but didn’t intentionally lie. According to this theory, Jesus was deluded into actually believing he was the Messiah.

Lewis considered this option carefully. He deduced that if Jesus’ claims weren’t true, then he must have been insane. Lewis reasons that someone who claimed to be God would not be a great moral teacher. “He would either be a lunatic—on a level with the man who says he is a poached egg—or else he would be the Devil of Hell.
Most who have studied Jesus’ life and words acknowledge him as extremely rational. Although his own life was filled with immorality and personal scepticism, the renowned French philosopher Jean-Jacques Rousseau (1712–78) acknowledged Jesus’ superior character and presence of mind, stating, “When Plato describes his imaginary righteous man…he describes exactly the character of Christ. …If the life and death of Socrates are those of a philosopher, the life and death of Jesus Christ are those of a God.

Bono concludes that a “nutcase” was the last thing one could label Jesus.
“So what you’re left with is either Christ was who He said He was---or a complete nutcase. I mean, we’re talking nutcase on the level of Charles Manson….I’m not joking here. The idea that the entire course of civilization for over half of the globe could have its fate changed and turned upside down by a nutcase, for me that’s far-fetched….

So, was Jesus a liar or a lunatic, or was he the Son of God? Could Jefferson have been right by labelling Jesus “only a good moral teacher” while denying his deity? Interestingly, the audience who heard Jesus—both believers and enemies—never regarded him as a mere moral teacher. Jesus produced three primary effects in the people who met him[b]: hatred, terror, or adoration.[/b]

The claims of Jesus Christ force us to choose. As Lewis stated, we cannot put Jesus in the category of being just a great religious leader or good moral teacher. This former sceptic challenges us to make up our own minds about Jesus, stating,
"You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God: or else a madman or something worse. You can shut Him up for a fool, you can spit at Him and kill him as a demon or you can fall at his feet and call Him Lord and God. But let us not come with any patronizing nonsense about His being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to."

In Mere Christianity, Lewis explores the options regarding the identity of Jesus, concluding that he is exactly who he claimed to be. His careful examination of the life and words of Jesus led this great literary genius to renounce his former atheism and become a committed Christian.
The greatest question in human history is, “Who is the real Jesus Christ?” Bono, Lewis, and countless others have concluded that God visited our planet in human form. But if that is true, then we would expect him to be alive today. And that is exactly what his followers believe.

Emusan:


You said EVERYTHING but the key point you neglected in that verse is NOT EVEN ONE THING CAME INTO BEING WITHOUT JESUS is English your problem? If God created Jesus it means IS NOT EVERYTHING CAME INTO BEING THROUGH JESUS.

What John 1:3 is saying is this, ALL CREATIONS came into existence through Jesus Christ OR put it in another way NO SINGLE CREATION WITHOUT JESUS. Now is Jesus Christ a created being/brought into EXISTENCE? YES (according to you), then this made Jesus part of creation BUT John 1:3 never grouped Jesus among creation WHICH MEANS the God John 1:1 is talking about is much more than what you want us to believe.

Well, Jesus is a created being not according to me but the Scriptures.

IF Jesus is both God and Creator of all things why would he Say "The words of the 'Amen', the Faithful and true witness, the beginning of God's creation" - Revelation 3:14 NKJV.

Why would Paul right "He is the IMAGE of 'the INVICIBLE GOD, THE FIRST-BORN OF ALL CREATION" -Colossians 1:15 NKJV

This two scripture explains what is included in EVERYTHING being created through Jesus. It means Jesus created everything apart from himself, so he was not self existent like the Father (invisible God) who granted him life by creation- John
5:26- Read it and you will see, the Son would not, can not exist without the Father.

Emusan:

Because you lack scriptural knowledge or just for your perverted doctrine you can spew this trash.
Jesus Himself is EVERLASTING LIFE, so how can EVERLASTING LIFE die?

So you mean Jesus did NOT 'DIE' FOR YOUR SIN AGAIN? That is really interesting to know.

Emusan:

Thank God you're a Jehovah Witness I don't need to argue with you here "A voice of one calling out in the wilderness: “Clear up* [size=14pt]the way of Jehovah![/size] Make a straight highway through the desert for our God Isa 40:3 NWT

So who is lying here?

At first glance, one would thing- you got me, but you could not be more wrong. Here is me using the NKJV to explain that Scripture with other Scriptures.

Please see this Parallel scripture - Malachi 3:1 "Behold, I send my messenger to prepare the way before ME, and the Lord whom you seek will suddenly come to HIS TEMPLE, the messenger of the covenant in whom YOU delight, behold, HE IS COMING SAYS THE LORD OF HOSTS

What did you get from tthe bolded section? Is the Lord of Hosts referring to himself in the third person or mentioning coming of another person who is "THE MESSENGER of the covenant".

Jesus himself answers, " I have come in MY FATHERS NAME (obviously Jehovah I presume), and you did not receive me; IF ANOTHER COMES IN HIS OWN NAME HIM YOU WILL RECEIVE"

Jesus did not come in his behalf or his own Name. When Angels come in Jehovah's behalf, they are called God (capital G) in the bible, that is why people like Abraham, Moses spoke to God face to face, yet NONE has seen Almighty God (John 1:18)

Emusan:

Read Isaiah 40:3 again and again.

I have, but you need to tell me our can Jesus be the Same person as his own God LOGICALLY.

Emusan:

I have also addressed this.

No, you haven't address the Issue: How come Jesus has a God he answers to? If you had, we won't be dragging this discussion to page 3.

Emusan:

Next time if you can't address my question stop quoting me.

But I have been addressing you questions while you have been ignoring mine. Its just that, you have not been getting the answers you were expecting to hear that's all.

Emusan:

I asked why will the writer of Hebrew apply the OT verses that meant for Jehovah to Jesus the Son without committing blasphemy? do you still believe Jesus is in the same category of God that those human belong to?

No, Jesus is just not an ordinary God, he is a MIGHTY GOD but he is not the Almighty God- that right alone is reserved for Jesus and our God (John 20:17)

Emusan:

Had it been you read the whole book of Hebrew you would've known Jesus' Fellows for quick understanding quickly read Heb 2:7-17

I have read the Entire bible 4 times in 4 years. This will be my 5th time(3 chapters everyday=entire bible in a year). So don't conclude so fast.

Here is a quiz from Hebrew 1:1-3:

1) Why would Almighty God call himself "A Father" and the same time "A Son" ?

2) Why would The Father make the son his HEIR if they are equal or the same.

Read Hebrew 10:5-9 well. Especially verse 7

Romans 8:16, 17 "It is the spirit himself bearing witness with our spirit THAT WE ARE CHILDREN OF GOD and If children then HEIRS, HEIRS OF GOD and FELLOW HEIRS WITH CHRIST provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him" 2 peter 1:4 says PARTAKE OF THE DIVINE NATURE.

We are sons of God hence heirs of God, Why are then not heirs of Christ rather we are 'Fellow/co-heirs with christ? Because of being adopted as Sons to God not adopted as a God.

Explain John 5:44 "How can you believe, who receive glory from one another and do not seek the glory that COMES FROM THE 'ONLY' GOD" , and John 8:44 " If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing; it is MY FATHER WHO GLORIFIES ME, OF WHOM YOU SAY THAT HE IS YOUR GOD"

Jesus himself acknowledged that the Jews claim to worship not himself BUT HIS FATHER, THE ONLY TRUE GOD.

Emusan:


You said EVERYTHING but the key point you neglected in that verse is NOT EVEN ONE THING CAME INTO BEING WITHOUT JESUS is English your problem? If God created Jesus it means IS NOT EVERYTHING CAME INTO BEING THROUGH JESUS.

What John 1:3 is saying is this, ALL CREATIONS came into existence through Jesus Christ OR put it in another way NO SINGLE CREATION WITHOUT JESUS. Now is Jesus Christ a created being/brought into EXISTENCE? YES (according to you), then this made Jesus part of creation BUT John 1:3 never grouped Jesus among creation WHICH MEANS the God John 1:1 is talking about is much more than what you want us to believe.

We need to understand scriptural language and expressions. This is not a problem or question of english per se.

"All things" doesn't include the Father.

When the bible says;

1Cor 15v27 -For He hath put ALL THINGS UNDER HIS FEET.

Does that "ALL THINGS" include the Father? Has the Father been put under the feet of Christ? Ofcourse NOT! "ALL THINGS" exclude the Father.

It points that out in the second part of the verse;

1Cor 15v27 -...But when He saith, all things are put under Him, it is manifest that He is EXCEPTED, which did put all things under Him

So when the Bible says;

John 1v3 -ALL THINGS were made by Him(Jesus);

It is obvious that, the "all things" excludes the Father that brought Him forth. That Jesus made "all things" doesn't mean He is the Father or that otherwise He made the Father too. That He made all things doesn't mean He wasn't begotten as well.

NO! "All things" does not include the Father. The Father brought forth (or procreated) the Son and the Son made ALL THINGS.

I think RikoduoSennin has the other points covered.

ayoku777:


We need to understand scriptural language.

All things doesn't include the Father.

When the bible says;

1Cor 15v27 -For He hath put ALL THINGS UNDER HIS FEET.

Does that "ALL THINGS" include the Father? Has the Father been put under the feet of Christ? Ofcourse NOT! ALL THINGS exclude the Father.

1Cor 15v27 -...But when He saith, all things are put under Him, it is manifest that He is EXCEPTED, which did put all things under Him

So when the Bible says;

John 1v3 -ALL THINGS were made by Him;

It is obvious that, the "all things" excludes the Father. That Jesus made "all things" doesn't mean He is the Father or that otherwise He made the Father too. That He made all things doesn't mean He wasn't begotten as well.

NO! "All things" does not include the Father. The Father brought forth the Son and the Son made ALL THINGS.

I think RikoduoSennin has the other points covered.

To shed more light : .This word, In the beginning we have learnt was produced from God, and was generated by being produced, and therefore is called the Son of God, and God, from unity of substance with God. For God too is Spirit. When a ray is projected from the sun it is a portion of the whole sun; but the sun will be in the ray because it is a ray of the sun; the substance is not seperated but extended. So from spirit comes spirit, and God from God, as light is kindled from light...

RikoduoSennin:

Well, Jesus is a created being not according to me but the Scriptures.

IF Jesus is both God and Creator of all things why would he Say "The words of the 'Amen', the Faithful and true witness, the beginning of God's creation" - Revelation 3:14 NKJV.

Why would Paul right "He is the IMAGE of 'the INVICIBLE GOD, THE FIRST-BORN OF ALL CREATION" -Colossians 1:15 NKJV

Are you saying Jesus is not God and the creator?
The bone of the contention is that Jesus is not part of creation which is what John 1:3 trying to explain.

As for Revelation 3:14, the word rendered "THE BEGINNING" was translated from the Greek word "ARCHE" that also means source/origin/principality/rule e.t.c so taking it out of context is baseless. Please the Father called Himself THE BEGINNING(arche)...does it mean the father has a beginning too? If we substitute THE BEGINNING with either ORIGIN or SOURCE then you will understand the content of that verse.

As for colo 1:15 Paul didn't mean Jesus was the FIRSTCREATED but what he means by FIRSTBORN is pre-eminence/supremacy which he stresses out in verse 18 "...that in all things he might have the preeminence."
The key question one can ask here is, if Jesus was created FIRST why must He have THE PREEMINENCE once He is already in the position of pre-eminence?

The simple answer is, Jesus is never part of creation but as He entered time and space (creation) He must take the position because He brought creation into being.

This two scripture explains what is included in EVERYTHING being created through Jesus. It means Jesus created everything apart from himself, so he was not self existent like the Father (invisible God) who granted him life by creation- John
5:26- Read it and you will see, the Son would not, can not exist without the Father.

NO! What that verse is making clear is that Jesus never be part of creation, He's the one who started creation.
You miss apply that John 5:26, if you read it carefully you will know that the life the Father granted The Son was His Humanity LIFE "For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; 27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. because JESUS HIMSELF IS EVERLASTING LIFE, how can EVERLASTING LIFE BE CREATED?

So you mean Jesus did NOT 'DIE' FOR YOUR SIN AGAIN? That is really interesting to know.

Where did I say so?

At first glance, one would thing- you got me, but you could not be more wrong. Here is me using the NKJV to explain that Scripture with other Scriptures.

You're very funny, when you erroneously said THE Lord in Isaiah 40:3 is not YAHWEH but just ordinary Lord like Jesus or any human Lord
Come with another lie.

Please see this Parallel scripture - Malachi 3:1 "Behold, I send my messenger to prepare the way before ME, and the Lord whom you seek will suddenly come to HIS TEMPLE, the messenger of the covenant in whom YOU delight, behold, HE IS COMING SAYS THE LORD OF HOSTS

What did you get from tthe bolded section? Is the Lord of Hosts referring to himself in the third person or mentioning coming of another person who is "THE MESSENGER of the covenant".

If you know the IMPLICATION of this passage on your claim you wouldn't have quoted it.
Malachi 3:1 "Behold, I send my messenger to prepare the way before ME...,
Please the I and ME in that passage is it the Father that is talking or The MESSENGER who is coming?

What I understand from that verse is that a messenger will PREPARE A WAY FOR THE SPEAKER beside please which Lord are people seeking for, THAT IS COMING TO HIS TEMPLE, is it not YAHWEH or another Lord?

Jesus himself answers, " I have come in MY FATHERS NAME (obviously Jehovah I presume), and you did not receive me; IF ANOTHER COMES IN HIS OWN NAME HIM YOU WILL RECEIVE"

If Jesus came in THE NAME OF THE FATHER (YAHWEH) so if I call Him YAHWEH did I make a mistake?
Can you address a president representative his/her name and not your excellency Mr. President?

Jesus did not come in his behalf or his own Name. When Angels come in Jehovah's behalf, they are called God (capital G) in the bible, that is why people like Abraham, Moses spoke to God face to face, yet NONE has seen Almighty God (John 1:18)

Another lie, NONE has seen God in TOTALITY OF HIS GLORY not that people have not seen God, the purpose of John 1:18 is "...the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him. John the Baptist didn't mean seen God any how BUT FULLY KNOW and DECLEAR HIM TO PEOPLE except JESUS who is also God.

I have, but you need to tell me our how can Jesus be the Same person as his own God LOGICALLY.

Jesus is not The Father, BUT YAHWEH in FLESH the name YAHWEH is hold all over the GODHEAD.

No, you haven't address the Issue: How come Jesus has a God he answers to? If you had, we won't be dragging this discussion to page 3.

The EVERLASTING LIFE, The WORD became FLESH which is called incarnation, so in His humanity He has a God because He has already surrendered everything to His Father "But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:" Phili 2:7 so the Father became His God that's why Jesus need to be exalted again.
Mind Jesus didn't come to Earth as God.

But I have been addressing you questions while you have been ignoring mine. Its just that, you have not been getting the answers you were expecting to hear that's all.

How many of your question have I avoided? I always analyse your post point by point

No, Jesus is just not an ordinary God, he is a MIGHTY GOD but he is not the Almighty God- that right alone is reserved for Jesus and our God (John 20:17)

Do you also realise that The Father is also MIGHTY GOD?

I have read the Entire bible 4 times in 4 years. This will be my 5th time(3 chapters everyday=entire bible in a year). So don't conclude so fast.

Then why are you asking who are the fellow of Jesus Christ?

Here is a quiz from Hebrew 1:1-3:

And you will be claiming that you always answer my question, you asked question "WHO ARE JESUS FELLOWS" and I gave you assignment you come back with more question when you haven't answered your own question.

you also avoid this question my question totally, you said and I quote "Jesus did NOT create the literal Heavens (abode of The Father)," and I asked "Then did this abode of the Father come before Jesus or Jesus comes before this abode?

Again who are Jesus' fellow according to you?

1) Why would Almighty God call himself "A Father" and the same time "A Son"?

Then who say The Father and The Son are the same thing?

2) Why would The Father make the son his HEIR if they are equal or the same.

I strike "the same" because no TRINITARIAN ever say so, The Son became heir of all things because all things were created for Him.

Read Hebrew 10:5-9 well. Especially verse 7
Romans 8:16, 17 "It is the spirit himself bearing witness with our spirit THAT WE ARE CHILDREN OF GOD and If children then HEIRS, HEIRS OF GOD and FELLOW HEIRS WITH CHRIST provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him" 2 peter 1:4 says PARTAKE OF THE DIVINE NATURE.

We are sons of God hence heirs of God, Why are then not heirs of Christ rather we are 'Fellow/co-heirs with christ? Because of being adopted as Sons to God not adopted as a God.

And you call this a question
Imaging you're co-heir with Christ or son of God or Child of God, who make you or allow you to be co-heir/son of God/child of God?
Do you even know the purpose of Christ on Earth?

Explain John 5:44 "How can you believe, who receive glory from one another and do not seek the glory that COMES FROM THE 'ONLY' GOD", and John 8:44 " If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing; it is MY FATHER WHO GLORIFIES ME, OF WHOM YOU SAY THAT HE IS YOUR GOD"

Jesus himself acknowledged that the Jews claim to worship not himself BUT HIS FATHER, THE ONLY TRUE GOD.

I can't stop laughing whenever people like you make such statement.
No Christian will ever deny that Jesus was on earth pointing people to know God.
Jesus never said He is God they say He blasphemy what if He now says I am God what would they do?

The problem people like you is having is that, you don't know that Jesus didn't come to earth to prove to people that He is God RATHER to let people know that the same God who has been spoken to them right from the day of their fathers has sent Him.

Don't get it twisted when I said GOD because not until advent of Jesus that people fully know that the Father has a UNIQUE Son which is also God.


FYI please don't prolong issue if you know you can't give a direct answer to one question but deviating and jumping from one point to another.

ayoku777:


We need to understand scriptural language and expressions. This is not a problem or question of english per se.

"All things" doesn't include the Father.

When the bible says;

1Cor 15v27 -For He hath put ALL THINGS UNDER HIS FEET.

Does that "ALL THINGS" include the Father? Has the Father been put under the feet of Christ? Ofcourse NOT! "ALL THINGS" exclude the Father.

It points that out in the second part of the verse;

1Cor 15v27 -...But when He saith, all things are put under Him, it is manifest that He is EXCEPTED, which did put all things under Him

So when the Bible says;

John 1v3 -ALL THINGS were made by Him(Jesus);

It is obvious that, the "all things" excludes the Father that brought Him forth. That Jesus made "all things" doesn't mean He is the Father or that otherwise He made the Father too. That He made all things doesn't mean He wasn't begotten as well.

NO! "All things" does not include the Father. The Father brought forth (or procreated) the Son and the Son made ALL THINGS.

I think RikoduoSennin has the other points covered.

Sir, I think you're too fast forward instead of taking time to digest my post.

I didn't say the Father was included in ALL THINGS...what I mean by ALL THINGS is that EVERYTHING THAT CAME INTO EXISTENCE AT CREATION it is evident that The Father was never created, so the reason why I quoted John 1:3 is to show people that Jesus was never part of creation instead the Bible placed Him outside the creation.

Jesus the Way to the Father

Thomas said to him, "Lord, we don't know where you are going, so how can we know the way?" 6 Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7 If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him." 8 Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us." 9 Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'?


this settles the matter. JESUS actually said HE WAS THE FATHER

bingbagbo:




Jesus the Way to the Father

Thomas said to him, "Lord, we don't know where you are going, so how can we know the way?" 6 Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7 If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him." 8 Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us." 9 Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'?


this settles the matter. JESUS actually said HE WAS THE FATHER

On the contrary, Jesus is the expression of the Godhead. He is called the WORD-He is the communication of God, the essence of God.

2 Corinthian 4:4 In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

bingbagbo:




Jesus the Way to the Father

Thomas said to him, "Lord, we don't know where you are going, so how can we know the way?" 6 Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7 If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him." 8 Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us." 9 Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'?


this settles the matter. JESUS actually said HE WAS THE FATHER

MODALISM preacher .... Fake trinitarian , are you saying Jesus is the Father ??

Eberex:
2 Corinthian 4:4 In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

Do you know that Satan is also called " GOD" in the scripture above ??

CAPTIVATOR:


Do you know that Satan is also called " GOD" in the scripture above ??

Yes i am aware. Humans are gods too, hope you are aware of that too

Emusan:



I didn't say the Father was included in ALL THINGS...what I mean by ALL THINGS is that EVERYTHING THAT CAME INTO EXISTENCE AT CREATION it is evident that The Father was never created, so the reason why I quoted John 1:3 is to show people that Jesus was never part of creation instead the Bible placed Him outside the creation.

LISTEN

Its good you recognize the fact that the Father was never created !! What about Jesus his son ??

Col 1:15 Jesus is " the FIRST - BORN of ALL CREATION" !!! This clearly reveal that OF ALL CREATION THAT CAME INTO EXISTENCE, JESUS IS THE FIRST TO BE BORN INTO EXISTENCE . ! .. The trinity lie says " pre eminence over" ! This never appeared in that scripture ! Another lie is " firstborn over all creation" NO! " FIRST-BORN OF CREATION".

Col 1:18 Jesus is the FIRSTBORN from the dead" !! He was part of d dead, but first to be raised , its a big LIE to say " firstborn over the dead" or "pre eminen

Eberex:


Yes i am aware. Humans are gods too, hope you are aware of that too

YES ! But according to the ancient greek scripture, humans are " GODS" ! ( are u aware that the original greek used in writing the scripture has no uppercase or lowercase letters like english language).

But who did Jesus Christ refer to as the " ONLY TRUE GOD" john 17:3 ?? THE FATHER

What about the apostles

" for even though there are so called GODS ( using the rule of greek), whether in heaven or on earth, just as there are many " GODS" ..... There is actually to us ONE GOD, THE FATHER from whom all things are and we for him" ! 1 cor 8:5,6 this scripture doesnt need explanation but i will explain .

POINT 1: We have one God

POINT 2: This One God is not composed of trinity BUT ONLY THE FATHER ! 1 COR 8:5,6

CAPTIVATOR:


YES ! But according to the ancient greek scripture, humans are " GODS" ! ( are u aware that the original greek used in writing the scripture has no uppercase or lowercase letters like english language).

But who did Jesus Christ refer to as the " ONLY TRUE GOD" john 17:3 ?? THE FATHER

What about the apostles

" for even though there are so called GODS ( using the rule of greek), whether in heaven or on earth, just as there are many " GODS" ..... There is actually to us ONE GOD, THE FATHER from whom all things are and we for him" ! 1 cor 8:5,6 this scripture doesnt need explanation but i will explain .

POINT 1: We have one God

POINT 2: This One God is not composed of trinity BUT ONLY THE FATHER ! 1 COR 8:5,6

If you are so concerned about the capital letter ''G'' being attributed to GOD, and since you are bringing out quotes from the Bible, which tells me you really believe in its content, please explain this verse. John 20:28 Thomas said to him, ''my Lord and my God''

Eberex:


If you are so concerned about the capital letter ''G'' being attributed to GOD, and since you are bringing out quotes from the Bible, which tells me you really believe in its content, please explain this verse. John 20:28 Thomas said to him, ''my Lord and my God''

Very Good! If HUMANS are called " GODS" , and SATAN is called " GOD" ..... OF Course, Jesus occupies a far higher position than any of this , has he is the " ONLY BEGOTTEN SON" of the Father , Then thomas have a point for refferin to Jesus as " My God" ( remember also that thomas was in a shocked mood, exclamation mark(!) )!! BUT THIS STATEMENT NEVER MEANS JESUS IS THE ONLY TRUE GOD !

- Thomas had heard Jesus pray to HIS FATHER and reffer to him as " THE ONLY TRUE GOD" Joh 17:3!

- After Jesus Ressurection, Thomas had heard the message that Jesus passed across to his disciples " I am ascending ... To MY GOD AND YOUR GOD" Joh 20:17

CAPTIVATOR:


MODALISM preacher .... Fake trinitarian , are you saying Jesus is the Father ??

Why don't you explain the scripture he quoted instead of throwing fits.While on the subject could you please tell us who Isaiah was referring to here?

For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; and the government will rest on His shoulders; and His name will be
c a l l e d W o n d e r f u l C o u n s e l o r, [size=16pt]Mighty God, Eternal Father,[/size] Prince of Peace.There will be no end to the increase of His government or of peace ( Isaiah 9:6-7)

Bidam:
Why don't you explain the scripture he quoted instead of throwing fits.Why on the subject could you please tell us who Isaiah was referring to here?

For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; and the government will rest on His shoulders; and His name will be
c a l l e d W o n d e r f u l C o u n s e l o r, [size=16pt]Mighty God, Eternal Father,[/size] Prince of Peace.There will be no end to the increase of His government or of peace ( Isaiah 9:6-7)

Jesus replied to philip in that manner because he is a " REPRESENTATIVE FROM the Father" John 7:29

Bidam ...... The child will be born and will be called, Mighty God! Isa 9:6 NOT ALMIGHTY GOD , Christ though powerful still have a God he answers to ( 1 cor 15:24-28)

CAPTIVATOR:


Very Good! If HUMANS are called " GODS" , and SATAN is called " GOD" ..... OF Course, Jesus occupies a far higher position than any of this , has he is the " ONLY BEGOTTEN SON" of the Father , Then thomas have a point for refferin to Jesus as " My God" ( remember also that thomas was in a shocked mood, exclamation mark(!) )!! BUT THIS STATEMENT NEVER MEANS JESUS IS THE ONLY TRUE GOD !

- Thomas had heard Jesus pray to HIS FATHER and reffer to him as " THE ONLY TRUE GOD" Joh 17:3!

- After Jesus Ressurection, Thomas had heard the message that Jesus passed across to his disciples " I am ascending ... To MY GOD AND YOUR GOD" Joh 20:17

lolz............All what you just said i'm sorry doesnt make sense. ''he was in shock mood indeed!!!'' And please! we use gods for lesser beings like humans and the devil. Do not attribute it to God.

Thomas was a jew, and Jewish belief is that of a one God. Jesus would have replied him telling him ''nooooo dont call me God''....why didnt he?

CAPTIVATOR:


Jesus replied to philip in that manner because he is a " REPRESENTATIVE FROM the Father" John 7:29

Bidam ...... The child will be born and will be called, Mighty God! Isa 9:6 NOT ALMIGHTY GOD , Christ though powerful still have a God he answers to ( 1 cor 15:24-28)

Pls explain why the child is called eternal father. almighty means very powerful or omnipotent which to me is the same with mighty aka very powerful. Scripture records Jesus is omnipotent.(Revelation 1:8-"I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.")

Eberex:


lolz............All what you just said i'm sorry doesnt make sense. ''he was in shock mood indeed!!!'' And please! we use gods for lesser beings like humans and the devil. Do not attribute it to God.

Thomas was a jew, and Jewish belief is that of a one God. Jesus would have replied him telling him ''nooooo dont call me God''....why didnt he?

Jesus dont need to reply him at all ! The evidence speaks

" these are written ( includin thomas statement) that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the SON OF God" John 20:31 ! SON OF God NOT GOD HIMSELF .

CAPTIVATOR:


Jesus dont need to reply him at all ! The evidence speaks

" these are written ( includin thomas statement) that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the SON OF God" John 20:31 ! SON OF God NOT GOD HIMSELF .

Define ''SON OF God''

Bidam:
Pls explain why the child is called eternal father. almighty means very powerful or omnipotent which to me is the same with mighty aka very powerful. Scripture records Jesus is omnipotent.(Revelation 1:8-"I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.")

!

Bidam .... " GOD (The Almighty) is the head of Christ ( Mighty)" 1 Cor 11:3

- JEHOVAH GOD ALMIGHTY prophesy thru his prophet Isaiah to call the messiah " eternal father" why ? Jesus is person vested with the responsibility to grant mankind eternal life , " he became responsible for eternal salvation to all those obeyin him" Heb 5:9 and right now, " he is able to save completely all those who are approaching God Through him, because he is always alive TO PLEAD for them" before God ( Heb 7:25) .

~ Rev 1:8 Refers to the Almighty , Jehovah .... "the God of Christ" Ephesian 1:17

CAPTIVATOR:
!

Bidam .... " GOD (The Almighty) is the head of Christ ( Mighty)" 1 Cor 11:3

- JEHOVAH GOD ALMIGHTY prophesy thru his prophet Isaiah to call the messiah " eternal father" why ? Jesus is person vested with the responsibility to grant mankind eternal life , " he became responsible for eternal salvation to all those obeyin him" Heb 5:9 and right now, " he is able to save completely all those who are approaching God Through him, because he is always alive TO PLEAD for them" before God ( Heb 7:25) .

~ Rev 1:8 Refers to the Almighty , Jehovah .... "the God of Christ" Ephesian 1:17

Guess you couldn't explain why the child is called eternal father. Thanks anyway.

CAPTIVATOR:
!

Bidam .... " GOD (The Almighty) is the head of Christ ( Mighty)" 1 Cor 11:3

- JEHOVAH GOD ALMIGHTY prophesy thru his prophet Isaiah to call the messiah " eternal father" why ? Jesus is person vested with the responsibility to grant mankind eternal life , " he became responsible for eternal salvation to all those obeyin him" Heb 5:9 and right now, " he is able to save completely all those who are approaching God Through him, because he is always alive TO PLEAD for them" before God ( Heb 7:25) .

~ Rev 1:8 Refers to the Almighty , Jehovah .... "the God of Christ" Ephesian 1:17

Look here! don't try to twist words because we understand simple english. All i see is you countering passages in the Bible with your own beliefs, and i'm not going to fall for it. Listen to yourself ''God told isaiah to call the messiah ''eternel father'' what's this? or what are trying to say?

Isaiah 9:6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Eberex:


Look here! don't try to twist words because we understand simple english. All i see is you countering passages in the Bible with your own beliefs, and i'm not going to fall for it. Listen to yourself ''God told isaiah to call the messiah ''eternel father'' what's this? or what are trying to say?

Isaiah 9:6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

MODALISM Preacher ..... Are u saying Jesus is his own Father ? Even trinitarians believe that the Father is a person distinct from the Son.

Eternal father is a title given to the child when he was born because he " became responsible for eternal salvation to all those obeying him" Heb 5:9

Bidam:
Guess you couldn't explain why the child is called eternal father. Thanks anyway.

The explanation is right there UNLESS am speakin with a preacher of Modalism error that says Jesus is the Father ! .... Even trinitarians know that the Father is a person diferent from the Son ,

" WITNESS of Two persons ..... I am one who bears witness about myself (1st witness), and the Father WHO SENT ME bears witness about me (2nd witness) " Joh 8: 17,18 TWO DISTINCT PERSONS!

Eternal father is a title given to the son because " he became RESPONSIBLE for eternal salvation to all those obeying him" Heb 5:9

ANSWER THIS: DO U BELIEVE JESUS HAVE A SUPERIOR GOD ??

CAPTIVATOR:


The explanation is right there UNLESS am speakin with a preacher of Modalism error that says Jesus is the Father ! .... Even trinitarians know that the Father is a person diferent from the Son ,

" WITNESS of Two persons ..... I am one who bears witness about myself (1st witness), and the Father WHO SENT ME bears witness about me (2nd witness) " Joh 8: 17,18 TWO DISTINCT PERSONS!

Eternal father is a title given to the son because " he became RESPONSIBLE for eternal salvation to all those obeying him" Heb 5:9

ANSWER THIS: DO U BELIEVE JESUS HAVE A SUPERIOR GOD ??

Have you heard of the Trinity?

CAPTIVATOR:


The explanation is right there UNLESS am speakin with a preacher of Modalism error that says Jesus is the Father ! .... Even trinitarians know that the Father is a person diferent from the Son ,

" WITNESS of Two persons ..... I am one who bears witness about myself (1st witness), and the Father WHO SENT ME bears witness about me (2nd witness) " Joh 8: 17,18 TWO DISTINCT PERSONS!

Eternal father is a title given to the son because " he became RESPONSIBLE for eternal salvation to all those obeying him" Heb 5:9

ANSWER THIS: DO U BELIEVE JESUS HAVE A SUPERIOR GOD ??

I agree with you.

Let me put it in context for you.

On the fundamental level, and by that I mean based on the hebrew expression;

El-Shaddai (Almighty God) is different of El-Gibbowr (Mighty God) -both in meaning and in authority.

"Shaddai" is different in meaning and authority from "Gibbowr" in the hebrew.

Gibbowr was used to qualify a lot of people in scripture.

The children of the giants in Noah's days were called Gibbowr (Genesis 6v4)

Nimrod, the son of Cush was called Gibbowr (Genesis 10v8)

The armies of Joshua were termed Gibbowr (Joshua 10v7)

But I don't think there was anywhere in scripture where "SHADDAI" was used to define and qualify anyone besides divinity. I stand to be corrected.

El-Shaddai (Almighty God) and El-Gibbowr (Mighty God) are not the same in authority to the best of my knowledge.

But even so;

▶ I believe Jesus is God (Isaiah 9v6, John 1v1)

▶ I believe He is Father (Isaiah 9v6, Hebrews 2v13)

▶ He's even Yahova -YHWH (Self-existent) and even Head (Jeremiah 23v5-6, 1Cor 11v3)

But everything Jesus is (to us), the Father is also the same thing to Him.

▶ Jesus is God but the Father is also His God; (John 20v17)

▶ Jesus is Father to creation and even Abba Father to the church, but the Father is also Abba Father to Him.

▶ Jesus is Head to the church, but the Father is also His head. (1Cor 11v3)

All these embosses the basic truth that while Jesus is indeed God, Father and Head etc; He is not the Mosthigh God, or the ultimate Father and Head. There is someone above and greater than Him.

Because He himself also has a God, an Abba Father and a Head in the person of the Father. Jesus is God but He has a God, He's Father but He has a Father; He is Head but He has a Head -THE FATHER!

The Father is greater than the Son. And that will NEVER CHANGE. It will be ETERNALLY SO.