Randlord:


Your myriad of maritime assets are armed with what missiles? What happens when your maritime ISR assets spot a Valour-class frigate in the Gulf of Guinea? Nothing. One Valour Class will blast that plane from the skies with our AAM (homemade) and sink your whole naval fleet of tiny vessels - FACT!

You talk about your numerous air assets. Pray do tell what missiles are they armed with? Our front line fighters are armed with IRST missiles and A-Darter. It's no contest, 2 Gripens will blast your fighters and Tucanos to kingdom come - FACT!

Everything else is emotional drivel. The FACTS are clear as day.

shadowprimezero:


100% agree with this assessment. It is what it is. For all the nay sayers, how many missile armed vessels does the NN have. The NN has very limited Blue water capabilities. Its strategic growth plans and recapitalisation efforts would see it into a very formidable force in a few years, but in its current state, if we're being honest,its a glorified coast guard

Whyem15:




Majority of the plans in the recapitalization program is why I wish to see the deep blue project develop into a coast guard and allow NN to focus on being a real navy.


And hopefully, the new OPVs the navy will be getting will be missile armed.

shadowprimezero:


I largely agree with this assessment. It is what it is. For all the nay sayers, how many missile armed vessels does the NN have. The NN has very limited Blue water capabilities. Its strategic growth plans and recapitalisation efforts would see it into a very formidable force in a few years, but in its current state, if we're being honest,its a glorified coast guard.

shadowprimezero:
On the NAF, our Tucanos are strike aircraft and the deal didn't include any A2A missiles. The JF-17s are another case entirely. They can go toe to toe with any Gripen, but unfortunately we only have them in little numbers. With the M-346FA deal however, Nigeria will have a pretty good air deterrent. Their A2A weapons suite are the same as the Eurofighter Typhoon. We'll also have them in decent numbers

Randlord:


Your myriad of maritime assets are armed with what missiles? What happens when your maritime ISR assets spot a Valour-class frigate in the Gulf of Guinea? Nothing. One Valour Class will blast that plane from the skies with our AAM (homemade) and sink your whole naval fleet of tiny vessels - FACT!

You talk about your numerous air assets. Pray do tell what missiles are they armed with? Our front line fighters are armed with IRST missiles and A-Darter. It's no contest, 2 Gripens will blast your fighters and Tucanos to kingdom come - FACT!

Everything else is emotional drivel. The FACTS are clear as day.

shadowprimezero:


I largely agree with this assessment. It is what it is. For all the nay sayers, how many missile armed vessels does the NN have. The NN has very limited Blue water capabilities. Its strategic growth plans and recapitalisation efforts would see it into a very formidable force in a few years, but in its current state, if we're being honest,its a glorified coast guard.

On the NAF, our Tucanos are strike aircraft and the deal didn't include any A2A missiles. The JF-17s are another case entirely. They can go toe to toe with any Gripen, but unfortunately we only have them in little numbers. With the M-346FA deal however, Nigeria will have a pretty good air deterrent. Their A2A weapons suite are the same as the Eurofighter Typhoon. We'll also have them in decent numbers

shadowprimezero:


I largely agree with this assessment. It is what it is. For all the nay sayers, how many missile armed vessels does the NN have. The NN has very limited Blue water capabilities. Its strategic growth plans and recapitalisation efforts would see it into a very formidable force in a few years, but in its current state, if we're being honest,its a glorified coast guard.

On the NAF, our Tucanos are strike aircraft and the deal didn't include any A2A missiles. The JF-17s are another case entirely. They can go toe to toe with any Gripen, but unfortunately we only have them in little numbers. With the M-346FA deal however, Nigeria will have a pretty good air deterrent. Their A2A weapons suite are the same as the Eurofighter Typhoon. We'll also have them in decent numbers

kabe1:


Why was the last time SAN carried out a live fire exercise?

He is mentioning A-darter, and you are agreeing with him, Is the A-darter in service in any service anywhere in the would?

How would a Denel that is bankrupt, has been workers monthly salaries for months, could not supply contracts to Egypt & Chad, hasn't paid component manufacturers?

How do you expect they would attack Nigeria?

kabe1:


How do you largely agree with a comment filled with holes and unrealistic scenarios?

How often does the SAN take it's boats to sea?

lionel4power:
South Africa

Frigates: four modern Valour class

Submarines: three modern Heroine class

Fighter jets: two squadron of modern SAAB Gripens, BAE Hawks
Attack helicopters: 11 capable Rooivalks

Air Defence: South African made mobile Umkhonto short-range surface-to-air missile system.
169 Oerlikon GDF 35mm guns, along with 75 Superfledermaus fire control units (FCUs)
Skyshield air defence systems,
Thales Air Defence Starstreak very short-range air defence (VSHORAD) missile,
Support system: Indegenous Link ZA
ELINT: Oryx EW, C-47TP EW
Wartime experience: Since World War I.
Main battle tanks: Olifant (~150+ vastly upgraded centurions)


..., ....

Nigeria

Frigate: 1 (grossly outdated and irrelevant today)
Submarine: 0
Fighter jets: 3 JF-17, 9 F-7N (aerial dominance capability in contested airspace questionable)
Attack helicopters: around 10 Mi-24/35
Air defence: Shilka, Skyshield radar
Support systems: Falcon Eye and Regional maritime domain awareness
ELINT: 0
Main battle tanks: ~ 100+ T-72, VT-4, outdated Vickers mbt

Please reply me with commonsense.

Covert1:


Here we go again, perception from reality. You must be paid by the southies to burnish their image or you are their agent or double agent.

I will answer you in the same veiled language

First your submission is biased. When you write South African systems you glorify them and when you write Nigerian systems you downplay them. That is not commonsense. So many inconsistencies to suit your ego. How come Vickers are outdated but second world war Olifants are "vastly upgraded", what an exaggeration! Not that it matters if it helps you sleep at night but one VT-4 tank can take very good care of those Olifants in theatre and I'm curious how you didn't add modern in your description of the VT-4s. You are mischievous.

First South Africa does not have vastly superior systems to Nigeria. Actually the reverse is the case. Are you serious! How can you compare systems bought some 20 years ago to very recent systems bought some not even 3 months old. Do you tell us the technology of 20 years ago is same today. You surreptitiously throw in the word modern to describe South Africa's war chest. It's an abuse. Besides Nigeria is not arming only for CT/COIN but also for strategic military decision advantages over peer powers in the region.

Let me help you a bit with the military parlance you don't see. Nigeria's acquisitions are game changers. A single BVR JF-17 Thunder can do more damage than the entire current South African fleet of Gripens except upgraded E/F. Whatver air defense systems you mentioned is not an S-400 battery and will be taken out by the NAF very easily from stand-off distances. And how low can you go to put the JF-17s and "questionable air dominance in contested airspace". You know I'm used to the arrogance of the southie here sry 'whit.e ma.n' not unusual but this is inexcusable to look stup.id. And Nigeria does have ELINT capability, sry.

The valours and heroines you mention are not modern as you allude and more often broken down, in storage, inoperable or sitting in dry dock and lacking in skilled manpower. I wonder how you'd sail that armada up north maybe by some juju or you call in the Cubans. We hear they are practically running things down there due to the lack of skilled South Africans.

Our current OPVs are more modern and digitized even if without missiles and God forbid any eventuality can be very quickly armed with missiles not that I need to mention the NN is no stranger to missile technology and is very quickly bridging that gap with a new Frigate and new OPVs in short order. The Nigerian Navy also has a new Landing Ship Tank (LST) and another one in tow that can quickly bring in combat troops. The SAN does not have anywhere that capability or capacity.

And oh it's a shame South Africa has no modern maritime aircrafts like Nigeria or Naval Aviation as do the NN with more aircrafts on order.

The Gulf of Guinea has seen reduction in piracy to only 5 attacks this year due to the robust patrol and FE systems of the Navy. Thanks but your tantrum there does not hold sway. I'd think you would celebrate that.

There is no evidence to support the SAN was escorting ships during the Suez Canal crisis. Don't invent something where there is none. The Cape of Good Hope is far flung without any base for resupply or logistics for any pirate or pirate industry to thrive. If it did from what we currently know the SAN will struggle. The last we heard of the SAN was in the Mozambique Channel with a ship ill-suited for the task because it lacked modern OPVs.

South Africa went buying equipments it didn't need with no adequate skilled manpower base to operate them leading to loss time at sea and in the air. No one was going to fight South Africa, its position on the world map makes it highly unlikely but apparently people just freed from slavery thought they could throw their weight around in Africa in competition with an existing giant. It was a losing gamble.

The fact is the balance of power has shifted in Nigeria's favour both from the military to the economic dimensions. No expert would expect South Africa to be able to compete with Nigeria as the years go by. There are expert papers out there to support this fact. Nigeria is a giant and South Africa is not. I'm not here to continue to join these issues but to establish the facts as they are. South Africa itself under President Ramaphosa has accepted that reality.

And please stop telling us about experience. Nigeria fought in the world war and has been fighting local and foreign wars from the day it became an independent country. The South African military you have today is not the one that fought in those wars you mention. Try and be more forthright next time and not be condescending just because you have a blog. There are actually more educated people here.

Next.

lionel4power:
South Africa

Frigates: four modern Valour class

Submarines: three modern Heroine class

Fighter jets: two squadron of modern SAAB Gripens, BAE Hawks
Attack helicopters: 11 capable Rooivalks

Air Defence: South African made mobile Umkhonto short-range surface-to-air missile system.
169 Oerlikon GDF 35mm guns, along with 75 Superfledermaus fire control units (FCUs)
Skyshield air defence systems,
Thales Air Defence Starstreak very short-range air defence (VSHORAD) missile,
Support system: Indegenous Link ZA
ELINT: Oryx EW, C-47TP EW
Wartime experience: Since World War I.
Main battle tanks: Olifant (~150+ vastly upgraded centurions)


..., ....

Nigeria

Frigate: 1 (grossly outdated and irrelevant today)
Submarine: 0
Fighter jets: 3 JF-17, 9 F-7N (aerial dominance capability in contested airspace questionable)
Attack helicopters: around 10 Mi-24/35
Air defence: Shilka, Skyshield radar
Support systems: Falcon Eye and Regional maritime domain awareness
ELINT: 0
Main battle tanks: ~ 100+ T-72, VT-4, outdated Vickers mbts





Personally, the continuous comparing with South Africa is misplaced. Truth be told, only Nigerians compare themselves with South Africans here.

First if you look at the above indices, they, South Africans do not need the dixk swinging contest because they have more and superior systems.

Secondly, in experience, they have been warring under their own name since WWI. Their exploits in WWII, and Korea is still well celebrated till date.

Asides that, their naval have established their presence across the southern coast from Namibia to Mozambique a distance of 2000 nautical mile. SAN routinely patrol this distance to keep the area clear without making noise.

While the Gulf of Guinea is 1295.896 nautical miles.

When the Suez canal was blocked by the Evergreen, global shipping began moving their goods around the Cape of Good Hope. That is about $10 billion per day. And still the SAN kept these ships safe from pirate attacks. We never heard of any attack.

Bottom line is, capabilities and threat analysis differs. Nigeria's military acquisition is focused on counter-terrorism. While that of S.A is focused on peer-to-peer competition.

Yes, recently Nigeria has acquired new gadgets but I noticed that whenever new tech is bought, some people quickly come here to drag S.A.

Funny though, because I don't see Saffars doing the same. Even though they've been pummeled recently by budgets cuts, there's a reason they're still being placed above Nigeria in ranking. This is because 1) they have a world-class defense industry. 2) they have the experience. 3) they have the equipment.

Lastly, this disk swinging contest have driven the saffers from this forum, what else do you guys want.

Please reply me with commonsense.

Covert1:


Lol you dey make me dey laugh

SOUTH AFRICA

-IRST is inferior to BVR
-A-Darter not in service

NIGERIA

- BVR anti-ship missiles
- A single JF-17 is enough

That settles it.

You see my dear you are the one suffering from emotional outbursts. Next time please do check them because they don't win wars.

lionel4power:

Personally, the continuous comparing with South Africa is misplaced. Truth be told, only Nigerians compare themselves with South Africans here.

Covert1:


Here we go again, perception from reality. You must be paid by the southies to burnish their image or you are their agent or double agent.

I will answer you in the same veiled language

First your submission is biased. When you write South African systems you glorify them and when you write Nigerian systems you downplay them. That is not commonsense. So many inconsistencies to suit your ego. How come Vickers are outdated but second world war Olifants are "vastly upgraded", what an exaggeration! Not that it matters if it helps you sleep at night but one VT-4 tank can take very good care of those Olifants in theatre and I'm curious how you didn't add modern in your description of the VT-4s. You are mischievous.

First South Africa does not have vastly superior systems to Nigeria. Actually the reverse is the case. Are you serious! How can you compare systems bought some 20 years ago to very recent systems bought some not even 3 months old. Do you tell us the technology of 20 years ago is same today. You surreptitiously throw in the word modern to describe South Africa's war chest. It's an abuse. Besides Nigeria is not arming only for CT/COIN but also for strategic military decision advantages over peer powers in the region.

Let me help you a bit with the military parlance you don't see. Nigeria's acquisitions are game changers. A single BVR JF-17 Thunder can do more damage than the entire current South African fleet of Gripens except upgraded E/F. Whatver air defense systems you mentioned is not an S-400 battery and will be taken out by the NAF very easily from stand-off distances. And how low can you go to put the JF-17s and "questionable air dominance in contested airspace". You know I'm used to the arrogance of the southie here sry 'whit.e ma.n' not unusual but this is inexcusable to look stup.id. And Nigeria does have ELINT capability, sry.

The valours and heroines you mention are not modern as you allude and more often broken down, in storage, inoperable or sitting in dry dock and lacking in skilled manpower. I wonder how you'd sail that armada up north maybe by some juju or you call in the Cubans. We hear they are practically running things down there due to the lack of skilled South Africans.

Our current OPVs are more modern and digitized even if without missiles and God forbid any eventuality can be very quickly armed with missiles not that I need to mention the NN is no stranger to missile technology and is very quickly bridging that gap with a new Frigate and new OPVs in short order. The Nigerian Navy also has a new Landing Ship Tank (LST) and another one in tow that can quickly bring in combat troops. The SAN does not have anywhere that capability or capacity.

And oh it's a shame South Africa has no modern maritime aircrafts like Nigeria or Naval Aviation as do the NN with more aircrafts on order.

The Gulf of Guinea has seen reduction in piracy to only 5 attacks this year due to the robust patrol and FE systems of the Navy. Thanks but your tantrum there does not hold sway. I'd think you would celebrate that.

There is no evidence to support the SAN was escorting ships during the Suez Canal crisis. Don't invent something where there is none. The Cape of Good Hope is far flung without any base for resupply or logistics for any pirate or pirate industry to thrive. If it did from what we currently know the SAN will struggle. The last we heard of the SAN was in the Mozambique Channel with a ship ill-suited for the task because it lacked modern OPVs.

South Africa went buying equipments it didn't need with no adequate skilled manpower base to operate them leading to loss time at sea and in the air. No one was going to fight South Africa, its position on the world map makes it highly unlikely but apparently people just freed from slavery thought they could throw their weight around in Africa in competition with an existing giant. It was a losing gamble.

The fact is the balance of power has shifted in Nigeria's favour both from the military to the economic dimensions. No expert would expect South Africa to be able to compete with Nigeria as the years go by. There are expert papers out there to support this fact. Nigeria is a giant and South Africa is not. I'm not here to continue to join these issues but to establish the facts as they are. South Africa itself under President Ramaphosa has accepted that reality.

And please stop telling us about experience. Nigeria fought in the world war and has been fighting local and foreign wars from the day it became an independent country. The South African military you have today is not the one that fought in those wars you mention. Try and be more forthright next time and not be condescending just because you have a blog. There are actually more educated people here.

Next.

JOSCOFELIX:
oga which gripen are talking about ? Is the one without modern tech? Let me tell you the truth,we will not use our j 17 ,our m346fa ,f 7, we will use our alpha jet to fall you guy gripen or na greenpen. Nigeria atr 42 can be armed with misslie if the need comes.so your toy ship is not important or submarine is not important .let me tell you the truth you guy valour ship is ilke a covrttee not frigate.

lionel4power:
South Africa

Frigates: four modern Valour class

Submarines: three modern Heroine class

Fighter jets: two squadron of modern SAAB Gripens, BAE Hawks
Attack helicopters: 11 capable Rooivalks

Air Defence: South African made mobile Umkhonto short-range surface-to-air missile system.
169 Oerlikon GDF 35mm guns, along with 75 Superfledermaus fire control units (FCUs)
Skyshield air defence systems,
Thales Air Defence Starstreak very short-range air defence (VSHORAD) missile,
Support system: Indegenous Link ZA
ELINT: Oryx EW, C-47TP EW
Wartime experience: Since World War I.
Main battle tanks: Olifant (~150+ vastly upgraded centurions)


..., ....



Please reply me with commonsense.

lionel4power:


Nigeria

Frigate: 1 (grossly outdated and irrelevant today)
Submarine: 0
Fighter jets: 3 JF-17, 9 F-7N (aerial dominance capability in contested airspace questionable)
Attack helicopters: around 10 Mi-24/35
Air defence: Shilka, Skyshield radar
Support systems: Falcon Eye and Regional maritime domain awareness
ELINT: 0
Main battle tanks: ~ 100+ T-72, VT-4, outdated Vickers mbts





Personally, the continuous comparing with South Africa is misplaced. Truth be told, only Nigerians compare themselves with South Africans here.

First if you look at the above indices, they, South Africans do not need the dixk swinging contest because they have more and superior systems.

Secondly, in experience, they have been warring under their own name since WWI. Their exploits in WWII, and Korea is still well celebrated till date.

Asides that, their naval have established their presence across the southern coast from Namibia to Mozambique a distance of 2000 nautical mile. SAN routinely patrol this distance to keep the area clear without making noise.

While the Gulf of Guinea is 1295.896 nautical miles.

When the Suez canal was blocked by the Evergreen, global shipping began moving their goods around the Cape of Good Hope. That is about $10 billion per day. And still the SAN kept these ships safe from pirate attacks. We never heard of any attack.

Bottom line is, capabilities and threat analysis differs. Nigeria's military acquisition is focused on counter-terrorism. While that of S.A is focused on peer-to-peer competition.

Yes, recently Nigeria has acquired new gadgets but I noticed that whenever new tech is bought, some people quickly come here to drag S.A.

Funny though, because I don't see Saffars doing the same. Even though they've been pummeled recently by budgets cuts, there's a reason they're still being placed above Nigeria in ranking. This is because 1) they have a world-class defense industry. 2) they have the experience. 3) they have the equipment.

Lastly, this disk swinging contest have driven the saffers from this forum, what else do you guys want.

Please reply me with commonsense.

lionel4power:
outdated Vickers mbts

kabe1:


While having nonoperational Frigates, Submarines & Gripens Fighter jets that are in storage or inadequate fighter pilots to fly them is an achievement for you, in Nigeria, military planners take a more pragmatic look to procurement, taking into account Security assessment.

The Nigerian military is designed to deal with the threats we face. The South Africans in theory do not have the material, manpower or supply chain to invade or attack a country like Nigeria, hence we have invested heavily in other areas.

It's futile have an argument, when in clear facts the supposed enemy lacks the means to launch any attack in the first place.

The South African Navy does not have enough funds to refit the majority of its frigates and submarines and combined with underfunding of maintenance, this has been a major contributor to the Navy not meeting its sea hour targets.

https://www.defenceweb.co.za/featured/refit-of-sa-navy-frigates-and-submarines-stalled-by-lack-of-funding/

Can you explain to me how you have a modern military when you cannot even maintain it?


For the 2021/22 financial year, the SA Navy’s vessel refit as well as maintenance and repair full cost requirement of R1.470 billion is only 53.4% funded, with R786 million allocated. “This impacts negatively on the preparation of naval platforms for force preparation and force employment,” the DoD stated, adding that “the underfunding of the refit, maintenance and repair of vessels…is the major contributing factor towards the non-achievement of planned sea hours.” The Navy’s annual sea hour target is 10 000 per year, but its target has not been achieved for some time.


Due to historic and current funding shortages, only one of the four frigates, SAS Amatola, was partially refitted in 2014/15 and only one of the three submarines, SAS Manthatisi, was refitted in 2013/14. Funding for the refit of the remaining three frigates (SAS Isandlwana, SAS Spioenkop and SAS Mendi) and for the Submarine SAS Queen Modjadji 1 was not available since they became due for refits, the DoD said.


You've made many claims about the SA military, which is completely false. It's is however poignant to note that a vast majority of South-African military equipment are basically museum pieces, not fit for purpose, lacking the personnel required to man and operate them.

shadowprimezero:


I largely agree with this assessment. It is what it is. For all the nay sayers, how many missile armed vessels does the NN have. The NN has very limited Blue water capabilities. Its strategic growth plans and recapitalisation efforts would see it into a very formidable force in a few years, but in its current state, if we're being honest,its a glorified coast guard.

On the NAF, our Tucanos are strike aircraft and the deal didn't include any A2A missiles. The JF-17s are another case entirely. They can go toe to toe with any Gripen, but unfortunately we only have them in little numbers. With the M-346FA deal however, Nigeria will have a pretty good air deterrent. Their A2A weapons suite are the same as the Eurofighter Typhoon. We'll also have them in decent numbers

shadowprimezero:


You're such an embarrassment

lionel4power:
South Africa

Frigates: four modern Valour class

Submarines: three modern Heroine class

Fighter jets: two squadron of modern SAAB Gripens, BAE Hawks
Attack helicopters: 11 capable Rooivalks

Air Defence: South African made mobile Umkhonto short-range surface-to-air missile system.
169 Oerlikon GDF 35mm guns, along with 75 Superfledermaus fire control units (FCUs)
Skyshield air defence systems,
Thales Air Defence Starstreak very short-range air defence (VSHORAD) missile,
Support system: Indegenous Link ZA
ELINT: Oryx EW, C-47TP EW
Wartime experience: Since World War I.
Main battle tanks: Olifant (~150+ vastly upgraded centurions)


..., ....

Nigeria

Frigate: 1 (grossly outdated and irrelevant today)
Submarine: 0
Fighter jets: 3 JF-17, 9 F-7N (aerial dominance capability in contested airspace questionable)
Attack helicopters: around 10 Mi-24/35
Air defence: Shilka, Skyshield radar
Support systems: Falcon Eye and Regional maritime domain awareness
ELINT: 0
Main battle tanks: ~ 100+ T-72, VT-4, outdated Vickers mbts





Personally, the continuous comparing with South Africa is misplaced. Truth be told, only Nigerians compare themselves with South Africans here.

First if you look at the above indices, they, South Africans do not need the dixk swinging contest because they have more and superior systems.

Secondly, in experience, they have been warring under their own name since WWI. Their exploits in WWII, and Korea is still well celebrated till date.

Asides that, their naval have established their presence across the southern coast from Namibia to Mozambique a distance of 2000 nautical mile. SAN routinely patrol this distance to keep the area clear without making noise.

While the Gulf of Guinea is 1295.896 nautical miles.

When the Suez canal was blocked by the Evergreen, global shipping began moving their goods around the Cape of Good Hope. That is about $10 billion per day. And still the SAN kept these ships safe from pirate attacks. We never heard of any attack.

Bottom line is, capabilities and threat analysis differs. Nigeria's military acquisition is focused on counter-terrorism. While that of S.A is focused on peer-to-peer competition.

Yes, recently Nigeria has acquired new gadgets but I noticed that whenever new tech is bought, some people quickly come here to drag S.A.

Funny though, because I don't see Saffars doing the same. Even though they've been pummeled recently by budgets cuts, there's a reason they're still being placed above Nigeria in ranking. This is because 1) they have a world-class defense industry. 2) they have the experience. 3) they have the equipment.

Lastly, this disk swinging contest have driven the saffers from this forum, what else do you guys want.

Please reply me with commonsense.