PAGAN 9JA:


I understand your concerns.

Atheists must be careful not to atheistize Pagan religions, including Ifa Orisha.

If they truly want to embrace and defend the traditions of their forefathers, they must back the Spiritual beliefs as a religion and push for its National Recognition.

one cannot be two.

I differ with you here. Spirituality is not and never religion.

In Ifa, ori eni ni orisa eni. My consciousness is my deity. Does that mean I need to evangelize my consciousness and worship it? Nope....so go and figure out about difference in spirituality and religion

FOLYKAZE:

I differ with you here. Spirituality is not and never religion.

In Ifa, ori eni ni orisa eni. My consciousness is my deity. Does that mean I need to evangelize my consciousness and worship it? Nope....so go and figure out about difference in spirituality and religion

True Religion is SPirituality.

Your views of Religion have been distorted and damaged by christianity and islam, thereby enforcing you to believe that the ways of these 2 "new irreligions" is what defines religion.

The religions before christianity never evangelized. Religion is not supposed to be about evangelizing. Because True religion is about ones personal SPirituality.



We can do a test. dont go and read up on google or a dictionary.

According to you, what is the definition of religion?

following...

PAGAN 9JA:



True Religion is SPirituality.

Your views of Religion have been distorted and damaged by christianity and islam, thereby enforcing you to believe that the ways of these 2 "new irreligions" is what defines religion.

The religions before christianity never evangelized. Religion is not supposed to be about evangelizing. Because True religion is about ones personal SPirituality.



We can do a test. dont go and read up on google or a dictionary.

According to you, what is the definition of religion?

Religion is an organised body of faith, spirituality, which involve ritual activities, system of belief in and worshipping of God

FOLYKAZE:



Religion is an organised body of faith, spirituality, which involve ritual activities, system of belief in and worshipping of God

SO how are Pagan religions any different from what you said?

In the past in almost all tribes (even now), the Oracle/Priest's role was treated as an office, next to the Chiefs.

The only reason why some religions are disorganized today is because they are dying out.


And as for Ifa Orisha, it is one of the most organized religions in all of West Africa and Africa.

PAGAN 9JA:


SO how are Pagan religions any different from what you said?

In the past in almost all tribes (even now), the Oracle/Priest's role was treated as an office, next to the Chiefs.

The only reason why some religions are disorganized today is because they are dying out.


And as for Ifa Orisha, it is one of the most organized religions in all of West Africa and Africa.

Note: I dont know much about African pagan belief. The only thing im concerned about is Ifa and Yoruba spirituality.

Chief show me where you find worshipping in Ifa. Ifa didn't say you should worship anything.

Ifa is more about spirituality and not believing. Nobody is asking you to believe anything in Yoruba.

Ifa or Orisha practise is not about worshipping any deity/god. Orisha practise is recognizing the energies your consciousness can grap.

Ifa doesn't require faith.

I wont deny the fact that there are 'awo' which mean secret. They are group so if thats what you call organise then you are right..... Ifa and Yoruba spirituality is not organise anywhere. Maybe you think it santeria or lukumi.

Sorry spirituality evidently different from religion

FOLYKAZE:

Note: I dont know much about African pagan belief. The only thing im concerned about is Ifa and Yoruba spirituality.

Chief show me where you find worshipping in Ifa. Ifa didn't say you should worship anything.

Ifa is more about spirituality and not believing. Nobody is asking you to believe anything in Yoruba.

Ifa or Orisha practise is not about worshipping any deity/god. Orisha practise is recognizing the energies your consciousness can grap.

Ifa doesn't require faith.

I wont deny the fact that there are 'awo' which mean secret. They are group so if thats what you call organise then you are right..... Ifa and Yoruba spirituality is not organise anywhere. Maybe you think it santeria or lukumi.

Sorry spirituality evidently different from religion

No Pagan religion will tell you to do anything. we do not have books.

To begin with, define worship.

In Paganism, worship is by appeasing the SPiritual Forces. This is done through prayer and ritual.

In Ifa Orisha, there are elaborate sets of ritual, sacrifice , prayer, etc to appease and connect to the Orisha. All of this counts as worship.

Again, there is belief. There is belief in the Creator Force, etc., and other Orishas.

Faith is present in the Spiritual World.

Ifa and the order of Priesthood is organized in Yorubaland.

I stick to my case. True Religion is Spirituality.

I do not refer to abstract Spirituality. I refer to SPirituality with regards to the practices prevalent in Yoruba Religion.

PAGAN 9JA:


No Pagan religion will tell you to do anything. we do not have books.

To begin with, define worship.

In Paganism, worship is by appeasing the SPiritual Forces. This is done through prayer and ritual.

In Ifa Orisha, there are elaborate sets of ritual, sacrifice , prayer, etc to appease and connect to the Orisha. All of this counts as worship.

Again, there is belief. There is belief in the Creator Force, etc., and other Orishas.

Faith is present in the Spiritual World.

Ifa and the order of Priesthood is organized in Yorubaland.

I stick to my case. True Religion is Spirituality.

I do not refer to abstract Spirituality. I refer to SPirituality with regards to the practices prevalent in Yoruba Religion.

Worship is an act of religious devotion usually directed towards a deity. It can also mean respect and love.

You are attributing worship as prayer.... Im asking worshipping of what? Do Ifa says worship anything? Pls answer.

Creator or creation is religion coming in. In Yoruba spirituality, you know much more that most of their term is symbolic and personifing energies is what brought confusion today. Eledumare is infinite consciousness. The creation legend is more like today science and went far back to big bang. Though it short but deep.

Erm... Spirituality or religion is another topic. But sorry, you couldn't show me faith or where Ifa taught that worship this and not this.

I believe atheist are not christians or muslims dat wen their religious leaders tell them to do something they do dat thing without questioning as long as d pastor or imam says its from god.if u want atheists to believe in african philosophy and spirituality its up to u to give reasons and evidence to back up ur claims.u said spirituality is knowing ur true self then according to dat spirituality should be personal and therefore no need in worrying about budhism or ifa spirituality since d philosophy and spirituality are to be developed by u and u alone.

ninja4life: I believe atheist are not christians or muslims dat wen their religious leaders tell them to do something they do dat thing without questioning as long as d pastor or imam says its from god.if u want atheists to believe in african philosophy and spirituality its up to u to give reasons and evidence to back up ur claims.u said spirituality is knowing ur true self then according to dat spirituality should be personal and therefore no need in worrying about budhism or ifa spirituality since d philosophy and spirituality are to be developed by u and u alone.

Lol.

You got most of things wrong. Im not asking anybody to believe in African philosophy or spirituality. What im asking them is to do know it.

Most of African spiritual concept are lost and corrupted. Eledumare translating to Yahweh, Eshu translating to Lucifer, other Orisa turning to demons and devil agents. That is what most people know. This is the infected spiritual concept by western religion. Atheist on this forum are bent to thinking spirituality is the same as religion.

Dont curse the dark, light the candle. Buddhism is not philosophical and also religion though the westerner has forcefully separate religion from it and painting it atheistic. So African atheist are embracing buddhism because westerner rebrand it. Why cant we light the candle in our room instead of another person room? Why cursing your dark room why it you who didn't light it up?

Thats my shot.

I have some free time, so I might as well attend to this thread. As usual, I speak for myself.

FOLYKAZE:
Most especially, atheist on this forum like to say that Buddhism is not a religion, it's a philosophy because it doesn't rely on belief in deity etc.
Logicboy tagged Japan as atheistic nation....here refering to buddhists as atheists. He is right considering that buddhists do not believe in supernatural God.

Okay, but just to give a little bit more insight.

Link: http://www.buddhanet.net/nutshell03.htm
In Buddhism there is not, as in most other religions, an Almighty God to be obeyed and feared. The Buddha does not believe in a cosmic potentate, omniscient and omnipresent. In Buddhism there are no divine revelations or divine messengers. A Buddhist is, therefore, not subservient to any higher supernatural power which controls his destinies and which arbitrarily rewards and punishes. Since Buddhists do not believe in revelations of a divine being Buddhism does not claim the monopoly of truth and does not condemn any other religion. But Buddhism recognizes the infinite latent possibilities of man and teaches that man can gain deliverance from suffering by his own efforts independent of divine help or mediating priests.
Buddhism cannot, therefore, strictly be called a religion because it is neither a system of faith and worship, nor "the outward act or form by which men indicate their recognition of the existence of a God or gods having power over their own destiny to whom obedience, service, and honor are due."

If, by religion, is meant "a teaching which takes a view of life that is more than superficial, a teaching which looks into life and not merely at it, a teaching which furnishes men with a guide to conduct that is in accord with this its in-look, a teaching which enables those who give it heed to face life with fortitude and death with serenity,"[6] or a system to get rid of the ills of life, then it is certainly a religion of religions


I personally believe Buddhism is a religion, just one not centered around a divine, conscious Being.

FOLYKAZE:
However, in my humble opinion, Buddhism meets the definition of what a religion is... What most funny is the things people value in different cultures.
Remember that plenty of religions want to differentiate themselves from the pool of religions in the world... I've seen Christians claiming things like, "Christianity isn't a religion. Religions are mans attempt to reach God...Christianity is Gods effort to reach man." It's just that people want to be "special" and not have to categorize themselves or judge themselves by the standards of others.

True, sad times we live in when even the religious seek to distance themselves from religion.

FOLYKAZE:
Is Buddhism a Religion?

It depends on whom you ask. A lot of Westerners calling themselves Buddhists will say "No." But if you have ever spent any time around genuine Buddhists from Asian countries you'd know the answer is "Yes". The mistake is whether the Buddha intended to establish a new religion or just a new manner of thought out of Hinduism and it thousands of Gods. Some streams of Buddhism could legitimately be called atheistic, while others could be called pantheistic, and still others theistic such as Pure Land Buddhism. Eastern religions can also appear to be so different from Western religions that some people become confused. It's really all just splitting hairs. Sects such as Pure Land Buddhism are especially religious in their belief.

Ok.

FOLYKAZE:
Some in the West dismiss these devotional and worshipful aspects of Buddhism as corruptions of the original teachings of the Buddha. For example, Sam Harris, a self-identified atheist who has expressed admiration for Buddhism just like every average atheist in Nigeria. We tend to cleansed of the "naive, petitionary, and superstitious" attachment to make it completely free from religion and look more philosophical.

Could you list any superstitions you might know of that exist in Buddhism.. note that Buddhism is quite different from Hinduism.

FOLYKAZE:
At this junction, Ifa to me is viewed in the same sense we view buddhism. The 'barking at' by atheist with regard to embracing Ifa makes me ask alot of questions like...

You really want to strip Ifa of its gods?

FOLYKAZE:
If buddhism is embraced and admired because it forcefully separated from religion, why cant I embrace Ifa by separating it from religion too?

Last I checked, no one's stopping you. Just don't expect us to entertain the nonsense that you're an atheist.

FOLYKAZE:
Since we embrace buddhism because westerners rebrand it, should we agree atheism is a robust and fashioned western belief? Why must we follow western path?

Now this is plain silly. Atheism, like most other enquiries, is as a result of doubt and a search for evidence. Can you prove to me that 'doubt' and 'evidence' are only native to the Westerner?

FOLYKAZE:
Why are we moved toward foreign thought, philosophy and belief while trashing that of Africa....ethnic? Why cant we be ourselves?

This is plain silly. What do you mean by be 'ourselves'? Atheists do not trash Africa, Africans trash Africa by the way they live, think, and conduct themselves. We are Africans and we know the truth. Go to foreign embassies and see legions of Africans hustling to get visas to 'Promise land'. Africa is bleeped up, and AFRICANS have to come to that realization before we can begin to move ahead.
- Why are we where we are?
- What mistakes were made in the past?
- How can we progress, move forward, and ensure posterity do not meet the Africa of today?

FOLYKAZE:
why do African atheist turn atheism into organise religion....'Dawkin or Harris said it so we follow'?

Another silly statement. I'm atheist and hardly know this people. LB and Cyrexx told me some months back that I remind them of Sam Harris. I'm yet to check him out.

Also, atheism isn't a religion.


You're confused.

FOLYKAZE:
Is it fundamental motion of pushing African belief, spirituality and thought into dark room over western belief? Isn't this colonization and mental slavery? Why cant we light the candle instead of cursing the dark? We did this to buddhism, why not African thought, philosophy and spirituality?

What is colonization and mental slavery is returning to what our ancestors did, rituals/beliefs/initiations that didn't protect them from the slave owners. That's the height of stupidity.

It's this erroneous idea I've noticed you propagate on similar threads, that India, China, Japan and a host of other countries are finding their feet because they have roots in paganism.. this is quite untrue. It was a focus on science and education some decades back, and they are beginning to reap the rewards. In turn, most of their societies are becoming less superstitious. Science and education hold the key, not paganism.. never paganism.

That being said, is it necessary to teach our kids the 'right' history? Oh, absolutely. We could tell them stories of how our ancestors tried to explain the universe, show them some similarities that might occur within their philosophy and modern science, that's all good.

BUT FOR OUR SOCIETY TO MOVE FORWARD, it is imperative that we furnish their minds with the tools of science and logical reasoning. We must stir within them the desire to understand the environment and the world around them. Instruct them to view themselves as first class citizens of the world not slaves or former slaves.

FOLYKAZE:

- firstly, voodoo is a religion which recognise spirit as divine entity. How does that relate to Eshu? And how do I disrespect Vodou religion?

Vodun is a Fon word that literally means spirit. Eshu/Legba is one of the many spirits recognized. Eshu is not the concept of intuition.

FOLYKAZE:
- atheist have no moral? Chai. Off topic....im not discussing about this.

No I never said atheists have no morals. I said they have no moral blueprint. To me they are those brave enough to march off saying "I'll create my own." If some atheists are trying to cling to philosophies founded from other people's spiritualities (such as Ifa or Buddhism) then essentially they are not the brave I thought they were. They are just like most humans....comforted by group think and ideas made for mass consumption.

folykage it seem the gods scare you and you are trying to run away from them.

aManFromMars:

I have some free time, so I might as well attend to this thread. As usual, I speak for myself.

Thanks for sparing your time.

aManFromMars:

Okay, but just to give a little bit more insight.

Link: http://www.buddhanet.net/nutshell03.htm
I personally believe Buddhism is a religion, just one not centered around a divine, conscious Being.

What you post up there is pure and fancy lies. Let me get you to understand that buddhism evolved from Hinduism. And like I said in my OP, I dont know if it evolve to religion on philosophical thought grounded on Hinduism. Buddha was silent on the issue of God.

A common view among some Buddhist is that Buddha said there was no such thing as God. Well, he also said there is no such thing as self also. Does that mean you don't exist just as God doesn't exist? Who or what is reading this if you don't exist? Those people painting this lies are mistaking Buddha's belief that God is beyond our concepts of understanding for non belief in that God. Just as they ere when saying showing reverence for the Buddha is idol worship and supposes him as a god which he always denied vigorously.

Yama the God of Death, Mara the tempter deity....Deva in sanskrit means a god/demigod (Like an angel or something). Brahmā, Asura, Śakra, Yaksha, Sariputta, Tara, Kwan Yin and many other Gods are found in Buddhism. Check more on Deities in buddhism here http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Buddhist_deities,_bodhisattvas,_and_demons.

aManFromMars:

Could you list any superstitions you might know of that exist in Buddhism.. note that Buddhism is quite different from Hinduism.

Yeah, the myth surrounding buddha's birth. How a tree bent down to help his mum, how he walked seven step immediately after birth and how a just born baby talk. Go read it up or maybe thats reality to ya.

aManFromMars:

You really want to strip Ifa of its gods?

Gods in Ifa are metaphoric. I dont need to strip, I need to study and know it and all it entails.

aManFromMars:

Last I checked, no one's stopping you. Just don't expect us to entertain the nonsense that you're an atheist.

As if atheism is codified with justice. Im atheist unless definition of atheism changes.

aManFromMars:

Now this is plain silly. Atheism, like most other enquiries, is as a result of doubt and a search for evidence. Can you prove to me that 'doubt' and 'evidence' are only native to the Westerner?

Evading my question to attack me. Good.

Spirituality is about doubt, questioning and searching. Now answer my quest.

aManFromMars:

This is plain silly. What do you mean by be 'ourselves'?

This is really pathetic. Why cant you answer simple question without insulting others?

Atheist on this forum are embracing buddhism philosophy and spirituality.....dont we have African philosophy and spirituality? Why are you ignoring whats yours for what belong to another person? Pls answer my questions.

aManFromMars:

Another silly statement. I'm atheist and hardly know this people. LB and Cyrexx told me some months back that I remind them of Sam Harris. I'm yet to check him out.

Common man you sounding unintelligent. I didn't ask you to insult me. Answer my question.

Buddhism is religion is Asia but those practising it in Europe are mostly atheist..... Even prominent atheist like Harris embraced it by separating it from religion. Since it religion, why you guys not taking it for that but following the western picture of it? Pls answer my questions.

aManFromMars:

Also, atheism isn't a religion.


You're confused.

who ask you this? Did I said it religion or why making it appear like religion? Mtchewwww

aManFromMars:

What is colonization and mental slavery is returning to what our ancestors did, rituals/beliefs/initiations that didn't protect them from the slave owners. That's the height of stupidity.

Did I ask you to return to African spirituality? I said why cursing the dark instead of lighting it? Dont you know the difference among regressing, continuing and progressing? Stop dodging my question, face it directly as a man.

Your ancestors weren't buddhist.....embracing buddhism which stamping on African spirituality is self-inferiority, self-oppression and self-devaluation. To enslave and colonize a world, it take a mental slam of telling the other to trash their history, heritage and culture and embrace that of others. Kindly answer my question....why cant you light the candle in your own room? Isn't that self banding and selling self into mental slavery?


Kindly address my question, the whole rant is not what I need. And pls do away with insult. Thanks

Ubenedictus: folykage it seem the gods scare you and you are trying to run away from them.

which god?

MamiWata:

Vodun is a Fon word that literally means spirit. Eshu/Legba is one of the many spirits recognized. Eshu is not the concept of intuition.

What is spirit?

Do yourself a favor by reading about Eshu here. Also, stroll down for it continuation.

MamiWata:

No I never said atheists have no morals. I said they have no moral blueprint. To me they are those brave enough to march off saying "I'll create my own." If some atheists are trying to cling to philosophies founded from other people's spiritualities (such as Ifa or Buddhism) then essentially they are not the brave I thought they were. They are just like most humans....comforted by group think and ideas made for mass consumption.

Have you heard about buddhist atheist? The last time I check, spirituality is not about people but your own self. No blueprint here too huh?

FOLYKAZE:

What is spirit?

Spirit is what we are without the physical wrapping. Limiting spirit to intuition is absurd. Spirits possess intuition, remorse, foresight, knowledge, judgement, beliefs, the ability to feel and cause pain, the ability to experience and provoke fear, the ability to communicate with other spirits, etc. Eshu/Legba is an incredibly powerful spirit that I've communicated with firsthand so I know he is not intuition. You as an atheist are perhaps trying to shape something that you are attracted to into something that suits your spiritless worldview. However you need to own your atheism instead of trying to pull apart other people's spiritualities in an attempt to create something that suits you. ATR's are not to be done partially as your whims dictate. You should either respect them and yield to spirit or you choose to honor your chosen title as an atheist.

Have you heard about buddhist atheist? The last time I check, spirituality is not about people but your own self. No blueprint here too huh?

In the African tradition spirituality is not about any one individual. Spirituality is about being joined to and serving spirits that our ancestors have connected us with. The group identity that you seek is shallow and meaningless because you are trying to compartmentalize something that is not designed to be broken into parts. If you want to try to pull bits and pieces of other people's spiritualities apart to fill a base emptiness I'd prefer you do it to buddhism.

I give up. I doubt Folykaze understands any point I made. Ok, u be Ifa atheist. Enjoy.

Following.

aManFromMars: I give up. I doubt Folykaze understands any point I made. Ok, u be Ifa atheist. Enjoy.

lol man. It not about much word. It about knowing the fact.

Im African and Yoruba....wont deny that for any thing or anybody.

If my dad house is old, I wont curse it but rebuild it. The bush that grows around it will the cut and the animal to insect polluting it will be forced out......here is another house in the name of my father. The honour goes back to my ancestors not me. Cheers man

MamiWata:

Spirit is what we are without the physical wrapping. Limiting spirit to intuition is absurd. Spirits possess intuition, remorse, foresight, knowledge, judgement, beliefs, the ability to feel and cause pain, the ability to experience and provoke fear, the ability to communicate with other spirits, etc.

Why is it hard for you to define spirit? And where did I limit Intuition to spirit? Quit right, I know you saying something but the quest is do you understand that thing you are saying?

What is your definition for spirit?

Briefly explain it.

MamiWata:
Eshu/Legba is an incredibly powerful spirit that I've communicated with firsthand so I know he is not intuition.

You communicated with Eshu? Do you heard his voice? What are you saying? Lol are you a satanist? Pls read the link I posted. It explain things better. I dont want flood here with off-topic thang. Read it then ask question.

MamiWata:

You as an atheist are perhaps trying to shape something that you are attracted to into something that suits your spiritless worldview. However you need to own your atheism instead of trying to pull apart other people's spiritualities in an attempt to create something that suits you. ATR's are not to be done partially as your whims dictate. You should either respect them and yield to spirit or you choose to honor your chosen title as an atheist.

Im not reshaping anything dear. Just calm and get me understood instead of accusing me around. Let me just know if you understand anything you saying.

Orisa is translated to deity.
What is Orisa?

If you know what orisa is, I think you will understand it not an Anthropomorphic being like Abrahamic Gods. Also, you looking at the surface of each of this Orisa stories, they are coded and symbolic. If you had know this, you wont accuse of anything.

MamiWata:

In the African tradition spirituality is not about any one individual. Spirituality is about being joined to and serving spirits that our ancestors have connected us with. The group identity that you seek is shallow and meaningless because you are trying to compartmentalize something that is not designed to be broken into parts. If you want to try to pull bits and pieces of other people's spiritualities apart to fill a base emptiness I'd prefer you do it to buddhism.

You are mistaken religion with spirituality dear. Do you even know the difference? I agree that religion has corrupted African spirituality and philosophy but wont deny that African spirituality distinct from religion.

Has any Ifa practitional preached Ifa to you that you convert?

Religion wants to convert everyone, not the spirituality.

Religion is just pretend spirituality for people who aren't spiritual. It's a completely fake manufactured and branded product that robs people of any real spiritual connections by claiming dominion and copyright over it and misrepresenting what spirituality is.
The difference between being religious and being spiritual is similar to the difference between chewing gum and eating food. What you get out of chewing gum is an illusion of eating but it isn't eating. It misses out pretty much everything that's actually important and nourishing.

plaetton: Following.

Hey chief. Pls contribute here. Have always been respecting your views with objectivity. Thanks ahead

macof: Buddhism doesn't recognize God or any spiritual being, It all about trying to be vindicated from the suffering of this world.

Buddha taught about striving to live a moral life by being mindful of ur actions and thoughts to achieve wisdom and understanding.

Buddhists strive to attain true happiness as the world is Hell itself

Every Buddhist strives to be like The buddha who gained enlightenment after connecting with his inner consciousness through meditations and other mediums.

Buddist do not care about material things, most buddhist are what u would call poor, because they find no use for theses things because it doesnt guarantee happiness and peace of mind

Buddhist are seekers of Knowledge and peace, trying to make the world a better place. that is why u can never hear of forced or compelled conversion, wars or discrimination in areas where Buddhism prevails. (afterall wisdom is not for everybody)

Buddhism is not science, but it deals with the main purpose of science which is knowledge, theories, and above all making the world a better place.

Buddhist believe in the law of karma(not as a spiritual concept but natural law of actions with consequences)

Its no wonder Atheist are fans of Buddhism, it supports their course

Ifa recognize forces that drives nature

Ifa also teaches the importance of good character

Ifa preaches that the most important thing to us is our consciousnesses and subconsciousness

Ifa teaches that connecting with ur subconscious makes life easy and the road to achieving ur destiny is smooth

Ifa to a large degree is science because it is all about gaining knowledge of everything knowledgeable

Ifa tells the truth using symbolism, it is left to u to interpret and understand its use of symbolism

Ifa however isnt into any known/recognised scientific method of discovering knowledge. Ifa is on its own league

You say buddhism does not recognize spiritual beings, but on the other hand this same buddhism recognizes spiritual activities in that we are all spirits and that this present life is not all there is, that our actions in this life will determine what life we will have in the next life. It is either buddhism is a lazy philosphy or you are just delibrately filtering the aspects you are comfortable with and ignoring the more embarassing/unasnwered parts. Why does buddhism not ask what the origin of all these cycles of birth and rebirth is? It doesn't make sense to simply assert that we are born and reborn, and reborn until infinity if we don't rectify our lives, yet it claims to be without spirituality, yet it doesn't ask: who or what determined this moral basis that we must conduct ourselves with in order to escape this infinite birth cycles. At least other major philosophies(science, christianity, islam, etc) are honest in their claims(whether stupid of not) by asserting that there is an origin, a first cause or creator. But buddhism seems not to have an opinion about cause/origin/creator of this nature system that it recommends it's morals for people to follow. It seems to say that nature system just is!! a nature without cause/begining/creator, yet we the micro-organisms within this uncaused nature need to live by cause and effects. And don't tell me that buddhism agrees with evolution because it certainly does not, evolution has nothing to do with birth and rebirth, has nothing to do with cyclic existences or life after death, or that we exist today as humans, then tomorrow as mosquitoes and the next as sharks, etc. I am not an expert on buddhism, but if what you claim above about buddhism is true and is the sum of it's philosophy, then I can safely conclude that buddhism is a deliberately evasive, unquestful and dishonest philosophy.

I am more suprised that @folykaze is praising this your summary of buddhism.

One more thing, it is virtually impossible to separate religion from buddhism and also impossible to separate religion from spirituality(@floyKaze) This is for the people (atheist, ...) who want to identify differently from christians, moslems and other religionists. Every religion is based on spiritualities/philosophies. The issue is not who has it right and who has it wrong but whether their behaviours(worships) is in respect with their belief systems which includes concepts/entities beyond physically/scientifically evident truths. You can flog christians/moslems/etc as much as you want but the truth is you are basically doing exactly the same things that you deride them for. You believe in conforming to a set of moralities by which you expect to be judged in the life after after death. This is true of buddhism, true of ifa, true of christianity and islam, etc. Yet you claim to be atheist and buddhist/ifa. Am I the only one who's detecting the confusion here(or is it dishonesty)?

FOLYKAZE:

which god?

the gods in ifa, you seem to be frantically trying to deny the the orishas are gods not just energy.

okeyxyz:

You say buddhism does not recognize spiritual beings, but on the other hand this same buddhism recognizes spiritual activities in that we are all spirits and that this present life is not all there is, that our actions in this life will determine what life we will have in the next life. It is either buddhism is a lazy philosphy or you are just delibrately filtering the aspects you are comfortable with and ignoring the more embarassing/unasnwered parts. Why does buddhism not ask what the origin of all these cycles of birth and rebirth is? It doesn't make sense to simply assert that we are born and reborn, and reborn until infinity if we don't rectify our lives, yet it claims to be without spirituality, yet it doesn't ask: who or what determined this moral basis that we must conduct ourselves with in order to escape this infinite birth cycles. At least other major philosophies(science, christianity, islam, etc) are honest in their claims(whether stupid of not) by asserting that there is an origin, a first cause or creator. But buddhism seems not to have an opinion about cause/origin/creator of this nature system that it recommends it's morals for people to follow. It seems to say that nature system just is!! a nature without cause/begining/creator, yet we the micro-organisms within this uncaused nature need to live by cause and effects. And don't tell me that buddhism agrees with evolution because it certainly does not, evolution has nothing to do with birth and rebirth, has nothing to do with cyclic existences or life after death, or that we exist today as humans, then tomorrow as mosquitoes and the next as sharks, etc. I am not an expert on buddhism, but if what you claim above about buddhism is true and is the sum of it's philosophy, then I can safely conclude that buddhism is a deliberately evasive, unquestful and dishonest philosophy.

I am more suprised that @folykaze is praising this your summary of buddhism.

One more thing, it is virtually impossible to separate religion from buddhism and also impossible to separate religion from spirituality(@floyKaze) This is for the people (atheist, ...) who want to identify differently from christians, moslems and other religionists. Every religion is based on spiritualities/philosophies. The issue is not who has it right and who has it wrong but whether their behaviours(worships) is in respect with their belief systems which includes concepts/entities beyond physically/scientifically evident truths. You can flog christians/moslems/etc as much as you want but the truth is you are basically doing exactly the same things that you deride them for. You believe in conforming to a set of moralities by which you expect to be judged in the life after after death. This is true of buddhism, true of ifa, true of christianity and islam, etc. Yet you claim to be atheist and buddhist/ifa. Am I the only one who's detecting the confusion here(or is it dishonesty)?

I didn't mean to use the words "don't recognise" but the truth is u would never see a buddhist praying to a god or worshiping any deity.

And why the attack on me? Even if I made a mistake, u should give corrections. Afterall am not a buddhist, am into Ifa(not a babalawo tho)

FOLYKAZE:

You communicated with Eshu? Do you heard his voice? What are you saying? Lol are you a satanist? Pls read the link I posted. It explain things better. I dont want flood here with off-topic thang. Read it then ask question.

I have seen people with such claims. Eshu has nothing to do with satanism. Don't be like those Christians that call Eshu satan

macof:
I didn't mean to use the words "don't recognise" but the truth is u would never see a buddhist praying to a god or worshiping any deity.

And why the attack on me? Even if I made a mistake, u should give corrections. Afterall am not a buddhist, am into Ifa(not a babalawo tho)

I wasn't attacking you, I was addressing you.

No offense meant .

okeyxyz:

You say buddhism does not recognize spiritual beings, but on the other hand this same buddhism recognizes spiritual activities in that we are all spirits and that this present life is not all there is, that our actions in this life will determine what life we will have in the next life. It is either buddhism is a lazy philosphy or you are just delibrately filtering the aspects you are comfortable with and ignoring the more embarassing/unasnwered parts. Why does buddhism not ask what the origin of all these cycles of birth and rebirth is? It doesn't make sense to simply assert that we are born and reborn, and reborn until infinity if we don't rectify our lives, yet it claims to be without spirituality, yet it doesn't ask: who or what determined this moral basis that we must conduct ourselves with in order to escape this infinite birth cycles. At least other major philosophies(science, christianity, islam, etc) are honest in their claims(whether stupid of not) by asserting that there is an origin, a first cause or creator. But buddhism seems not to have an opinion about cause/origin/creator of this nature system that it recommends it's morals for people to follow. It seems to say that nature system just is!! a nature without cause/begining/creator, yet we the micro-organisms within this uncaused nature need to live by cause and effects. And don't tell me that buddhism agrees with evolution because it certainly does not, evolution has nothing to do with birth and rebirth, has nothing to do with cyclic existences or life after death, or that we exist today as humans, then tomorrow as mosquitoes and the next as sharks, etc. I am not an expert on buddhism, but if what you claim above about buddhism is true and is the sum of it's philosophy, then I can safely conclude that buddhism is a deliberately evasive, unquestful and dishonest philosophy.

I am more suprised that @folykaze is praising this your summary of buddhism.

One more thing, it is virtually impossible to separate religion from buddhism and also impossible to separate religion from spirituality(@floyKaze) This is for the people (atheist, ...) who want to identify differently from christians, moslems and other religionists. Every religion is based on spiritualities/philosophies. The issue is not who has it right and who has it wrong but whether their behaviours(worships) is in respect with their belief systems which includes concepts/entities beyond physically/scientifically evident truths. You can flog christians/moslems/etc as much as you want but the truth is you are basically doing exactly the same things that you deride them for. You believe in conforming to a set of moralities by which you expect to be judged in the life after after death. This is true of buddhism, true of ifa, true of christianity and islam, etc. Yet you claim to be atheist and buddhist/ifa. Am I the only one who's detecting the confusion here(or is it dishonesty)?

Hhmmm.
Great objectivity. I must say that I am a bit surprised. Perhaps I have misjudged you: Or is it that Christians tend to show objectivity only when it comes to non-Christian issues?.

Anyways, I agree with everything above.
I just want to use this chance to jump in and add that what makes Buddhism different, unique and more appealing to non-religious people is the fact that Buddhism is a Non-Custodial Religion.

A Custodial religion is one where a Custodial deity, real or mythical is the focus of worship, who is given omni omni attributes, who issues a set of commandments, and who is believed to bestow earthly blessings and afterlife rewards for the faithful who follow the commandments, and who also punishes with eternal torment for those who do not faithfully follow the commandments.

A Non-Custodial religion , on the other hand , is one where there is no recognition of a supreme deity to act as a grand puppet master. The individual is encouraged to take active take responsibility to establish harmony with his environment, is fellow living creatures and his fellow humans to create a life and a world suitable for all.

In a non-custodial religion like Buddhism, the individual and his human community are expected to be active agents in the creation process and the dynamism of the life and the universe.
Here, man is the creator of his destiny for good or for bad.
He does not rely on the machinations of gods, seen or unseen.

Whereas, in Custodial religions like Christianity, Islam, and many of our own African traditional religions, the individual is just a passive observer who sits back to beseech the custodial deities to intervene on his behalf to manipulate forces of the universe.

Therefore, it very easy to see why atheists, African atheists included, and non-religious people are attracted to Buddhism .

It is an active philosophy that allows the individual to be a an active contributor to the dynamism of the universe, as opposed to being passive and boxed in with real or mythical temperamental deities who are supposed to be the puppet masters of the universe.

plaetton:

Hhmmm.
Great objectivity. I must say that I am a bit surprised. Perhaps I have misjudged you: Or is it that Christians tend to show objectivity only when it comes to non-Christian issues?.

Anyways, I agree with everything above.
I just want to use this chance to jump in and add that what makes Buddhism different, unique and more appealing to non-religious people is the fact that Buddhism is a Non-Custodial Religion.

A Custodial religion is one where a Custodial deity, real or mythical is the focus of worship, who is given omni omni attributes, who issues a set of commandments, and who is believed to bestow earthly blessings and afterlife rewards for the faithful who follow the commandments, and who also punishes with eternal torment for those who do not faithfully follow the commandments.

A Non-Custodial religion , on the other hand , is one where there is no recognition of a supreme deity to act as a grand puppet master. The individual is encouraged to take active take responsibility to establish harmony with his environment, is fellow living creatures and his fellow humans to create a life and a world suitable for all.

In a non-custodial religion like Buddhism, the individual and his human community are expected to be active agents in the creation process and the dynamism of the life and the universe.
Here, man is the creator of his destiny for good or for bad.
He does not rely on the machinations of gods, seen or unseen.

Whereas, in Custodial religions like Christianity, Islam, and many of our own African traditional religions, the individual is just a passive observer who sits back to beseech the custodial deities to intervene on his behalf to manipulate forces of the universe.

Therefore, it very easy to see why atheists, African atheists included, and non-religious people are attracted to Buddhism .

It is an active philosophy that allows the individual to be a an active contributor to the dynamism of the universe, as opposed to being passive and boxed in with real or mythical temperamental deities who are supposed to be the puppet masters of the universe.

i doubt you really attempted to address okey's. I understand why you feel attracted to buddism but okey seems to be asking what is the ''not God''that judges if the dead should be reincarnated or to find 'peace'?

Ubenedictus: i doubt you really attempted to address okey's. I understand why you feel attracted to buddism but okey seems to be asking what is the ''not God''that judges if the dead should be reincarnated or to find 'peace'?

I was not really addressing Okexyz's post. Though I agreed with is last post, I was merely contributing my piece to the general topic.

okeyxyz:

You say buddhism does not recognize spiritual beings, but on the other hand this same buddhism recognizes spiritual activities in that we are all spirits and that this present life is not all there is, that our actions in this life will determine what life we will have in the next life. It is either buddhism is a lazy philosphy or you are just delibrately filtering the aspects you are comfortable with and ignoring the more embarassing/unasnwered parts. Why does buddhism not ask what the origin of all these cycles of birth and rebirth is? It doesn't make sense to simply assert that we are born and reborn, and reborn until infinity if we don't rectify our lives, yet it claims to be without spirituality, yet it doesn't ask: who or what determined this moral basis that we must conduct ourselves with in order to escape this infinite birth cycles. At least other major philosophies(science, christianity, islam, etc) are honest in their claims(whether stupid of not) by asserting that there is an origin, a first cause or creator. But buddhism seems not to have an opinion about cause/origin/creator of this nature system that it recommends it's morals for people to follow. It seems to say that nature system just is!! a nature without cause/begining/creator, yet we the micro-organisms within this uncaused nature need to live by cause and effects. And don't tell me that buddhism agrees with evolution because it certainly does not, evolution has nothing to do with birth and rebirth, has nothing to do with cyclic existences or life after death, or that we exist today as humans, then tomorrow as mosquitoes and the next as sharks, etc. I am not an expert on buddhism, but if what you claim above about buddhism is true and is the sum of it's philosophy, then I can safely conclude that buddhism is a deliberately evasive, unquestful and dishonest philosophy.

I am more suprised that @folykaze is praising this your summary of buddhism.

One more thing, it is virtually impossible to separate religion from buddhism and also impossible to separate religion from spirituality(@floyKaze) This is for the people (atheist, ...) who want to identify differently from christians, moslems and other religionists. Every religion is based on spiritualities/philosophies. The issue is not who has it right and who has it wrong but whether their behaviours(worships) is in respect with their belief systems which includes concepts/entities beyond physically/scientifically evident truths. You can flog christians/moslems/etc as much as you want but the truth is you are basically doing exactly the same things that you deride them for. You believe in conforming to a set of moralities by which you expect to be judged in the life after after death. This is true of buddhism, true of ifa, true of christianity and islam, etc. Yet you claim to be atheist and buddhist/ifa. Am I the only one who's detecting the confusion here(or is it dishonesty)?

Believe me, you're so not the only one.
And I'm suprised that folykaze now asserts that buddhism is a religion, after claiming otherwise in your previous thread.

barack_o_handso:


Believe me, you're so not the only one.
And I'm suprised that folykaze now asserts that buddhism is a religion, after claiming otherwise in your previous thread.

As okey said, the guy's confused.