JMAN05:

You were honest in admitting you guys dont follow the bible alone. True, those in the bible times may have received instructions not penned down in the bible, but these wouldnt contradict what is in the scriptures.

Even if we do not know for certain what those traditions were, some of them could have been what hav been stated in other part of the scriptures. Even if they were different, All scripture is inspired of God and benefitial for teaching... that a man of God we be COMPLETELY equipt for every good work. So if we can apply what is written, apart from oral tradition, we are ok to please God acceptably. I think that is safe than believing what someone may pop up in his mind as handed down tradition which we cant verify.

The bold. many have stated that we changed john1:1 against greek grammar.

Please Italo, I want you to tell me grammatically, what is wrong with the translation of that verse in that form? is it wrong to insert "a" or small "g" in greek grammar in that verse?

I need your answer, maybe i will start from you to expose the shallow scholarship of those who call themselves scholars who only expose how illitrate they are in greek grammar.

Bible alone is contrary to Biblical and Apostolic teaching.

"Written letter" and "oral tradition" is what the Bible and Apostles teach!

Shikena!

For John 1:1 and your false doctrines I'll be back.

italo:

Stop trying to rope other people in with your false doctrines. We are not talking about mistakes or expectations but false doctrines.

God doesn't reveal false doctrine today, then correct it tomorrow.

Your false doctrines are from the devil not God.

JWs yesteryears defended those false doctrines you now call mistakes. What is the guarantee your children will not call what you defend today "mistakes" tomorrow.

God's purposes are revealled progressively. bible truths come gradually. not that the truths have not been there, no, but its understanding comes gradually.

the apostles was with Jesus, but they thought that he was going to bring the kingdom after resurrection.

When the holy spirit fell on the apostles on pentacost, they never knew that God was going to bring the gentiles in, but this has been what was taught many years in the past, but now God gradually revealed the sacred secret after pentacost.

If you read Dan. 12:4 you will see that that truth is kept secret for the time of the end.

John came with his disciples and taught about baptism which is essential for salvation. that was the revealed truth at the time, later, baptism by Jesus came. If you are baptized by that of John alone when that of Jesus is revealed, you are going no where. but that does not make john and his disciples agents of Devil. no. God was unfolding events gradually.

Even in the first century Paul revealled that they do not know all about the prophecies they utter. 1cor. 13:8-10

So the above shows that God leads His people progressively. Not that the truth has not been there before, no, but God reveals it gradually. this doesnt make those who have a progressive understanding of it lack the holy spirit. in short, that they get new understanding is the evidence God's spirit cos God keeps some truths secret until some time.

italo:

Bible alone is contrary to Biblical and Apostolic teaching.

"Written letter" and "oral tradition" is what the Bible and Apostles teach!

Shikena!

For John 1:1 and your false doctrines I'll be back.

Now should this oral tradition conflict with the written word of God?

JMAN05:

God's purposes are revealled progressively. bible truths come gradually. not that the truths have not been there, no, but its understanding comes gradually.

the apostles was with Jesus, but they thought that he was going to bring the kingdom after resurrection.

When the holy spirit fell on the apostles on pentacost, they never knew that God was going to bring the gentiles in, but this has been what was taught many years in the past, but now God gradually revealed the sacred secret after pentacost.

If you read Dan. 12:4 you will see that that truth is kept secret for the time of the end.

John came with his disciples and taught about baptism which is essential for salvation. that was the revealed truth at the time, later, baptism by Jesus came. If you are baptized by that of John alone when that of Jesus is revealed, you are going no where. but that does not make john and his disciples agents of Devil. no. God was unfolding events gradually.

Even in the first century Paul revealled that they do not know all about the prophecies they utter. 1cor. 13:8-10

So the above shows that God leads His people progressively. Not that the truth has not been there before, no, but God reveals it gradually. this doesnt make those who have a progressive understanding of it lack the holy spirit. in short, that they get new understanding is the evidence God's spirit cos God keeps some truths secret until some time.

Pentecost was the beginning of the Church. The Apostles never taught false doctrines. Each individual could be mistaken about one or two things, but as leaders of the Church, they never taught false doctrine.

Dont try to make those holy men like the false teachers called Watchtower Society.

Look, dont make me start posting all your ridiculous and hypocritical falsehoods o.

If you want, just say so.

In short, just give me time, that is what I will do.

Maybe I should open a thread and invite you.

Its just that I dont like attacking other people's faiths.

You're pushing me.

JMAN05:

Now should this oral tradition conflict with the written word of God?

No.

Church tradition in no way contradicts scripture...though I have found that it contradicts the fallible and biased personal interpretation of protestants.

That is nothing to be worried about.

italo:

If Father Abraham could be in heaven and hear the rich man in hades; Mother Mary in heaven can also hear me on earth.

Alleluia!

Keep looking for liars that would tell you all the lies you want to hear about the Catholic Church while Mother Mary continues to hear and intercede for us.

As you type, our Mummy is knocking on Jesus' door for us. Asking him to provide us wine.

As you type, we're listening to our Mummy say "do whatever He tells you."

As you type, Mummy is making Jesus do things even when the "time has not yet come."

Many good things! Physical and spiritual... temporal and eternal.

Keep fighting against devotion to the Mother of God. Perhaps, God will be proud of you.

Chairman,
Dt same mary was condemned under Sin, born in iniquity b4 christ came
Dt same mummy mary relied on d blood of Jesus to be saved.
Dt same mary patiently waited for d outpouring of d Spirit on d day of pentecost.
On d Day of reward, dt same mary will stand side by side with us to recieve her reward according to her works.
D same marry solely depended on d same grace dt saved us.
Dt same mary would hav been burning in hell by now, as we will all do if not for Christ takin our place.

U better wake up, Apostle Paul, Mary all looked up to dt grace of God (Christ) for salvation. Pope does too (he may not tell u), he relies solely on dt grace not on mary pleading for him.

italo:

And even the Bible never said "Bible alone." It never even said "Bible."

Mary, the apostles, Stephen, Timothy...

...All these holy Christians never followed Bible alone.

We Catholics will rather emulate them than follow Jehovah's Witnesses who changed their Bible to say "Jesus is a god" like sango and amadioha.

See confession! so u guys dey add jara a?

Wonder whr the Apostles hav extra doctrinal supports outside God's Word o.

italo:

Pentecost was the beginning of the Church. The Apostles never taught false doctrines. Each individual could be mistaken about one or two things, but as leaders of the Church, they never taught false doctrine.

Dont try to make those holy men like the false teachers called Watchtower Society.

Look, dont make me start posting all your ridiculous and hypocritical falsehoods o.

If you want, just say so.

In short, just give me time, that is what I will do.

Maybe I should open a thread and invite you.

Its just that I dont like attacking other people's faiths.

You're pushing me.

I take that to mean that you have no prove against my submission. As such, gradual unveiling of truth does not mean that we lack holy spirit.

No, if you have what you see we teach that are not true doctrine, you are free to let me know or reason it out with me. I do the same to your own believe, so why shouldnt you do the same? We are not infallible bro unlike your Pope.

But what I wont accept is when you dont prove it wrong from the scriptures but make unnecessary criticism. And it will also be pointless to bring teachings we ve changed.

With the above, I await your invitation. but please let me know when you post it, cos I may be so busy that I may not see it. Peace!

italo:

No.

Church tradition in no way contradicts scripture...though I have found that it contradicts the fallible and biased personal interpretation of protestants.

That is nothing to be worried about.

Ok. Now the teaching that the Pope is infallible, is it not contra to the scriptures or have we made a fallible interpretation?

ajayikayod:

Chairman,
Dt same mary was condemned under Sin, born in iniquity b4 christ came
Dt same mummy mary relied on d blood of Jesus to be saved.
Dt same mary patiently waited for d outpouring of d Spirit on d day of pentecost.
On d Day of reward, dt same mary will stand side by side with us to recieve her reward according to her works.
D same marry solely depended on d same grace dt saved us.
Dt same mary would hav been burning in hell by now, as we will all do if not for Christ takin our place.

U better wake up, Apostle Paul, Mary all looked up to dt grace of God (Christ) for salvation. Pope does too (he may not tell u), he relies solely on dt grace not on mary pleading for him.

What point have you made?

ajayikayod:

See confession! so u guys dey add jara a?

Wonder whr the Apostles hav extra doctrinal supports outside God's Word o.

What is "God's word?"

JMAN05:

I just said the truth which you guys are aware of.

As JWs, please post what they believe now and prove it wrong, not a mistake the ve changed years ago.

when you talk about child molestation, I ve not heard of such, but I cant say it wont happen cos we are imperfect humans, however, the number must be few.

I shouldnt start to mention molestation amongst catholic priests and atrocities by infallible Popes. Among apointed men in JWs this incidents are few but among priests in catholic? woooooow, of course you know now!!!!!

But that is your doctrine, the bible alone doesnt state what you guys believe, true or false?

There are those who have left catholic too, many many many to be compared with JWs, hmmm have u forgotten?

Was the founder of your religion watch tower society(jehova's witness) in Charles taze rusell a child molester or not?

try69:

Was the founder of your religion watch tower society(jehova's witness) in Charles taze rusell a child molester or not?

mtcheeeeeew.. Charles taze rusell who tried to convert an atheist to christainity but ended up being coverted instead..
his an atheist, he jst declared him self pastor overnight.

italo:

What point have you made?

Dt Mary, Pope, u and I are on d same page. We all have access to d Father thru Jesus by one Spirit.
If u meet Mary today, she will laugh at ur claim becos she needed Christ blood to be save, needed to be taught by d early church Apostles and was just as same as Dorcas, Mary Magdalene and all other women of d early church. No special preference.

ajayikayod:

Dt Mary, Pope, u and I are on d same page. We all have access to d Father thru Jesus by one Spirit.

Why are you telling me this. Has any Catholic told you that we dont all have access to the Father through Jesus Christ?

ajayikayod:
If u meet Mary today, she will laugh at ur claim becos she needed Christ blood to be save,

Laugh at which claim?
[quote author=ajayikayod]
needed to be taught by d early church Apostles

Prove this from the Bible.

However, I do know that Jesus always obeyed Mary.

And Jesus is God.

ajayikayod:
and was just as same as Dorcas, Mary Magdalene and all other women of d early church. No special preference.

You mean the Holy Spirit was wrong when he said "Blessed are you among women?"

..Mary can not save anybody period..
..there is no need to prove anything YES she is in Heaven but not as any mediator..
..please my Catholic brethren Jesus is the True Mediator..!Remain Blessed.!

italo:
Why are you telling me this. Has any Catholic told you that we dont all have access to the Father through Jesus Christ?

Well, u claim u ar to beg Mary to talk to Jesus so dt u can hav access to d Father. Mary herself dey rely on d blood which we all rely on.

Prove this from the Bible.

Prove wat? Dt she needed Christ blood to be saved or dt she learnt at d Apostle's feet?

However, I do know that Jesus always obeyed Mary. And Jesus is God.

I wonder wat exactly u mean by "obeyed". If i assumed ur tot, then Jesus was fulfilling d commandment (Obey ur parents, honor ur parents) by obeying Mary.

Do u kno wat ds statement implies: KNOW WE NO MAN AFTER D FLESH? (11 Cor 5:15 - 18). Even Christ is not known after d flesh again, d lineage is now of d spirit. Jesus as d firstborn, we all are joint heir (including mary). Mary does d will of Christ now as we do also.

You mean the Holy Spirit was wrong when he said "Blessed are you among women?"

She wont be d first nor d last to be blessed. D blessedness was a fact dt at d period when Jesus would come, she was found innocent/available. Nothing special about her, Mary as a name of a person wasnt preplan to be d mother of Christ, d bible prophesy a virgin. Dt could hav been any available (true heart, God fearing) fellow.
Just like Judas wasnt preplan as d person to betray Christ, he only made himself available, yielding to d devil to fill d slot. If judas has refused to fill in someone else will.

In Matt 16, Peter was available 4 God's revelation of Christ and he recieved and Jesus declared him Blessed. Same Peter was available for d devil later on.

Matt 5:8 Blessed are the pure (clean, ready by preparation) in heart, For they shall see (percieve, experience, recognise) God.

try69:

Was the founder of your religion watch tower society(jehova's witness) in Charles taze rusell a child molester or not?

My religion is not watchtower. I am a JW. And christianity wasnt founded by Russell but Jesus. He is not the founder of JWs, but they (not only Russell) sought to find the truth as apposed to pagan type of believe at the time. they werent establishing a new religion different from what Christ has established. He wasnt even alive when we began to answer JWs.

Secondly, I asked about the teaching of the witnesses not sin of any member. I can as well ask you, Has the priests of your church molested any child? yes or no?

Russell didnt molest any child.

I want ti conclude that you have no scriptural prove against what we believe. That is good.

ajayikayod:

Well, u claim u ar to beg Mary to talk to Jesus so dt u can hav access to d Father. Mary herself dey rely on d blood which we all rely on.

Show me where we claimed we are to beg Mary to Jesus so that we can have access to the Father.

ajayikayod:

Prove wat? Dt she needed Christ blood to be saved or dt she learnt at d Apostle's feet?

...that she learned at the apostles' feet. Prove it from the Bible.

ajayikayod:

I wonder wat exactly u mean by "obeyed". If i assumed ur tot, then Jesus was fulfilling d commandment (Obey ur parents, honor ur parents) by obeying Mary.

All I know is that Jesus who is God always obeyed Mary. He even went as far as granting her request when it wasnt the appointed time for him to reveal his glory.

ajayikayod:

Do u kno wat ds statement implies: KNOW WE NO MAN AFTER D FLESH? (11 Cor 5:15 - 18). Even Christ is not known after d flesh again, d lineage is now of d spirit. Jesus as d firstborn, we all are joint heir (including mary). Mary does d will of Christ now as we do also.



She wont be d first nor d last to be blessed. D blessedness was a fact dt at d period when Jesus would come, she was found innocent/available. Nothing special about her, Mary as a name of a person wasnt preplan to be d mother of Christ, d bible prophesy a virgin. Dt could hav been any available (true heart, God fearing) fellow.
Just like Judas wasnt preplan as d person to betray Christ, he only made himself available, yielding to d devil to fill d slot. If judas has refused to fill in someone else will.

In Matt 16, Peter was available 4 God's revelation of Christ and he recieved and Jesus declared him Blessed. Same Peter was available for d devil later on.

Matt 5:8 Blessed are the pure (clean, ready by preparation) in heart, For they shall see (percieve, experience, recognise) God.

You say Mary is just like other women, nothing special.

The Holy Spirit says: blessed are you among women.

I will believe the Holy Spirit, not you.

JMAN05:

My religion is not watchtower. I am a JW. And christianity wasnt founded by Russell but Jesus. He is not the founder of JWs, but they (not only Russell) sought to find the truth as apposed to pagan type of believe at the time. they werent establishing a new religion different from what Christ has established. He wasnt even alive when we began to answer JWs.

Secondly, I asked about the teaching of the witnesses not sin of any member. I can as well ask you, Has the priests of your church molested any child? yes or no?

Russell didnt molest any child.

I want ti conclude that you have no scriptural prove against what we believe. That is good.

It was Russel that started your organization. Stop lying.

italo:
All I know is that Jesus who is God always obeyed Mary. He even went as far as granting her request when it wasnt the appointed time for him to reveal his glory

I'm interested in this statement.

Italo, hope you dont mind showing us from your bible where Mary 'requested' and not 'reported'

italo:

Show me where we claimed we are to beg Mary to Jesus so that we can have access to the Father.


...that she learned at the apostles' feet. Prove it from the Bible.


All I know is that Jesus who is God always obeyed Mary. He even went as far as granting her request when it wasnt the appointed time for him to reveal his glory.


You say Mary is just like other women, nothing special.

The Holy Spirit says: blessed are you among women.

I will believe the Holy Spirit, not you.

u got me hav a feeling dt u dont study ur bible, u only hold to wat u r told and d lifted scripture given to u. U asked for honestly, u really need to do d same wit urself. D issue of Mary is so clear and explicit in d scripture yet u prefered holding to doctrine of men above wat d scripture says.

Thr is no need for argument here wit u because i ve seen dt u ar just adamant to ur hold irrespective of wat d bible has to say.
Mary was part of d early church which had leaders (Apostles) dt tot they. Mary was never given any special recognition than others. Her name was as silent as Magdalene name in d epistles.

U believe in d Holy Spirit? dt same Spirit tells u dt we are new creations (In Christ), changed lineage, changed parents, no more after d flesh but d spirit. i m struggling to believ u really kno d Spirit u believe whether it's HolySpirit.

JMAN05:

My religion is not watchtower. I am a JW. And christianity wasnt founded by Russell but Jesus. He is not the founder of JWs, but they (not only Russell) sought to find the truth as apposed to pagan type of believe at the time. they werent establishing a new religion different from what Christ has established. He wasnt even alive when we began to answer JWs.

Secondly, I asked about the teaching of the witnesses not sin of any member. I can as well ask you, Has the priests of your church molested any child? yes or no?

Russell didnt molest any child.

I want ti conclude that you have no scriptural prove against what we believe. That is good.

Go to the thread italo opened and answer his quests about your false prophesies over the year

Many will arise with false prophesies and mislead others - jesus

Google charles taze russell bro, he founded JW, when he died rutherford took over, stop lying here to cover up.

Russell's wife while seeking for divorce, told the court hidden truths about russell and ROSE BALL..

Normally I would not attack personal morality but doctrine but to think that the founder of JW actually did these things are more proof that it was a certain spirit and not the holy spirit that directed his path.

And oh you also said the UN is satanic, has that teaching changed

Infact go to the other thread

adsonstone:

I'm interested in this statement.

Italo, hope you dont mind showing us from your bible where Mary 'requested' and not 'reported'

Clear road.

ajayikayod:

u got me hav a feeling dt u dont study ur bible, u only hold to wat u r told and d lifted scripture given to u. U asked for honestly, u really need to do d same wit urself. D issue of Mary is so clear and explicit in d scripture yet u prefered holding to doctrine of men above wat d scripture says.

Thr is no need for argument here wit u because i ve seen dt u ar just adamant to ur hold irrespective of wat d bible has to say.
Mary was part of d early church which had leaders (Apostles) dt tot they. Mary was never given any special recognition than others. Her name was as silent as Magdalene name in d epistles.

U believe in d Holy Spirit? dt same Spirit tells u dt we are new creations (In Christ), changed lineage, changed parents, no more after d flesh but d spirit. i m struggling to believ u really kno d Spirit u believe whether it's HolySpirit.

If I have told a lie or misrepresented the truth, please point it out.

It seems you just want to force me to accept your personal fallible interpretation and opinion of scripture even when it doesn't make sense.

You are unable to show me where we said you must go through Mary to get to the Father...

...and you cannot show me in the Bible where Mary learnt at the feet of the apostles.

Mr, do you believe in Bible alone or are you telling me these things based on your personal oral tradition?

italo:

Clear road.

Display of ignorance after being unable to refute the truth. Smh

adsonstone:

Display of ignorance after being unable to refute the truth. Smh

When someone avoids you, it could be because he is ignorant and unable to refute the truth. Yes.

But have you ever thought that it might be because he has found you ignorant yet unwilling to accept the truth?

Is that not a good reason to avoid someone?

italo:

When someone avoids you, it could be because he is ignorant and unable to refute the truth. Yes.

But have you ever thought that it might be because he has found you ignorant yet unwilling to accept the truth?

Is that not a good reason to avoid someone?

It would just be very simple if you answered the simple question the op asked by a yes or a no.

italo:

If I have told a lie or misrepresented the truth, please point it out.

It seems you just want to force me to accept your personal fallible interpretation and opinion of scripture even when it doesn't make sense.

You are unable to show me where we said you must go through Mary to get to the Father...

...and you cannot show me in the Bible where Mary learnt at the feet of the apostles.

Mr, do you believe in Bible alone or are you telling me these things based on your personal oral tradition?

Was Mary part of d early church?
Was Mary d head of d early church?
Did Mary obey d instructions of d early church?

U choose ur answer, I ve got better things to talk about in scripture than d folly of exalting or praying thru Mary which a kindergarten bible student knows its lies.

Pls, i m not telling u to believe wat i told u, hold fast to watever u believ. Its ur lot.

obi alfa:

It would just be very simple if you answered the simple question the op asked by a yes or a no.

I'd rather not waste my time arguing with someone who wants proof that Mary made a request to Jesus.

If such an insincere debater declares that to mean "I am ignorant and unable to refute truth," I am not worried about that.

I'd only be worried if a sincere person were saying that.

Thanks for your concern.

Talking about the OPs question.

I dont know. But I do know that Mary is like God because the Bible says we will be like him when we see him as he is.

Can you answer the OPs question with proof?

italo:

I'd rather not waste my time arguing with someone who wants proof that Mary made a request to Jesus.

If such an insincere debater declares that to mean "I am ignorant and unable to refute truth," I am not worried about that.

I'd only be worried if a sincere person were saying that.

Thanks for your concern.

Talking about the OPs question.

I dont know. But I do know that Mary is like God because the Bible says we will be like him when we see him as he is.

Can you answer the OPs question with proof?

Meaning you can't answer the question. There's no need for any argument.

ajayikayod:

Was Mary part of d early church?
Was Mary d head of d early church?
Did Mary obey d instructions of d early church?

U choose ur answer, I ve got better things to talk about in scripture than d folly of exalting or praying thru Mary which a kindergarten bible student knows its lies.

Pls, i m not telling u to believe wat i told u, hold fast to watever u believ. Its ur lot.

Why are you unable to answer my questions yet you ask more questions.

You never answer questions, even on the other thread.

What are you scared of?