frank3.16:


My friend stop trying to change Jesus/Judas story to suit ur own personal belief. You are nt talking to kids here, we all know that story.
Judas was not give any chance? It was already written that he would betray christ, even when Judas himself didn't know. Wasn't the coming of Christ to die for manking already written? Do you think that how Christ would die wouldn't have been taken care of by the almighty God?
Judas fulfilled his destiny when he betrayed Jesus

judas chose and fulfilled his destiny. He choose to betray jesus because of his greed that was already evident. He choose his path. Mind you, judas's name was never called in scripture. The ball was in his court, and he chose to swallow it(). What he did was just foreknown, and was used by God in the plan of salvation. Mind you, judas's name was never mentioned. And Judas repented after he betrayed Jesus. At least, he showed remorse and returned the money, but he didn't trust God enough to forgive him like peter, who denied Jesus too. And he went and hanged himself.

I want to ask you, do u think there was other probable ways that Jesus christ would have died apart from what was written in the bible?

Jesus was born to save man and fulfil scripture. If he died in any other way, he wouldn't have fulfilled scripture and he wouldn't be our messiah.

Answer this and I will call u God.

haaa! Oga frank take am easy ooo I am not coveting God's position ooo! abeg! I am not foolish

Joshthefirst: judas chose and his destiny. He choose to betray jesus because of his greed that was already evident. He choose his path. Mind you, judas's name was never called in scripture. The ball was in his court, and he chose to swallow it(). What he did was just foreknown, and was used by God in the plan of salvation. Mind you, judas's name was never mentioned. And Judas repented after he betrayed Jesus. At least, he showed remorse and returned the money, but he didn't trust God enough to forgive him like peter, who denied Jesus too. And he went and hanged himself.

Jesus was born to save man and fulfil scripture. If he died in any other way, he wouldn't have fulfilled scripture and he wouldn't be our messiah.

haaa! Oga frank take am easy ooo I am not coveting God's position ooo! abeg! I am not foolish

You've probably dealt with the passage below in your duels with unbelievers.
But i beg your indulgence...lol

Exodus 9:12►

New International Version
But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart and he would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the LORD had said to Moses.

What happened to pharaohs free will in the above scripture?

david_hume:

You've probably dealt with the passage below in your duels with unbelievers.
But i beg your indulgence...lol

Exodus 9:12►

New International Version
But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart and he would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the LORD had said to Moses.

What happened to pharaohs free will in the above scripture?

the same thing that happened to yours sir, nothing. The same light of God that melts wax hardens clay. When you keep being shown the scriptures and preached to like pharoah, you begin to grow used to conviction and you become unrepentant. That is what happened to pharoah. It is only the harsh reality of death that got to him. Don't be like pharoah sir. Respond to God before its too late.

We preach repentance from sins through Jesus Christ with passion and zeal. Because of love within us, Gods love for the sinner. No, we do not ignore the sinner or bomb him to hell like some folks do. We sacrifice for him, we love him. And we preach to him to get salvation from sin. Knowing the terrible reality he will meet if he perishes in his sin.

Respond to reality sir! Do not let your heart be hardened against God. You choose. That's what pharoah did.

^^^^
Why did u dodge my question?

aManFromMars: ^^^^
Why did u dodge my question?

I did not dodge any question. I answered it. I

Deleted

aManFromMars:

JoshtheFufu, abeg which comes first? God's knowledge of my action OR my action?

This question.

aManFromMars:

This question.

papa ekene, sorry ooo. Abeg no hire ekene to come walay me () I missed the question.
Gods knowledge of your action comes first(thank God its your action, and you're fully responsible)

Joshthefirst: the same thing that happened to yours sir, nothing. The same light of God that melts wax hardens clay. When you keep being shown the scriptures and preached to like pharoah, you begin to grow used to conviction and you become unrepentant. That is what happened to pharoah. It is only the harsh reality of death that got to him. Don't be like pharoah sir. Respond to God before its too late.

We preach repentance from sins through Jesus Christ with passion and zeal. Because of love within us, Gods love for the sinner. No, we do not ignore the sinner or bomb him to hell like some folks do. We sacrifice for him, we love him. And we preach to him to get salvation from sin. Knowing the terrible reality he will meet if he perishes in his sin.

Respond to reality sir! Do not let your heart be hardened against God. You choose. That's what pharoah did.

I can never understand how you manage to type so many words and still say NOTHING!
But for the verse below, i might have taken your excuse seriously:

Exodus 10:1
Then the LORD said to Moses, "Go to Pharaoh, for I have hardened his heart and the hearts of his officials so that I may perform these signs of mine among them

God tampered with pharaohs free will in order to make himself more attractive to the isrealites.
Shikena!!!

aManFromMars:

Joshthe[b]Fufu[/b]

the irony. I just finished fufu and egusi soup for dinner.

david_hume:

I can never understand how you manage to type so many words and still say NOTHING!
But for the verse below, i might have taken your excuse seriously:

Exodus 10:1
Then the LORD said to Moses, "Go to Pharaoh, for I have hardened his heart and the hearts of his officials so that I may perform these signs of mine among them

God tampered with pharaohs free will in order to make himself more attractive to the isrealites.
Shikena!!!

as I said earlier, you're already showing symptoms of hardenness of heart. I just typed a good reply to your question and you say I said nothing. Your heart isn't pricked. You've toughened it up against God's word.

Some of the conclusions you guys make from the bible make me want to fall off my bed. Smh. Stop reading stjupid meanings and listen to those who really understand. Those the bible was written for.
Go and read my reply to your question again sir.
I leave you with these verses

Exodus 8:15 But when Pharaoh saw that there was respite, he hardened his heart, and hearkened not unto them; as the Lord had said.(KJV)

Exodus 8:32 And Pharaoh hardened his heart at this time also, neither would he let the people go.

Do you see now? Ask yourselves important questions sir. Is your heart hardened against God

Joshthefirst: as I said earlier, you're already showing symptoms of hardenness of heart. I just typed a good reply to your question and you say I said nothing. Your heart isn't pricked. You've toughened it up against God's word.

Some of the conclusions you guys make from the bible make me want to fall off my bed. Smh. Stop reading stjupid meanings and listen to those who really understand. Those the bible was written for.
Go and read my reply to your question again sir.
I leave you with these verses

Exodus 8:15 But when Pharaoh saw that there was respite, he hardened his heart, and hearkened not unto them; as the Lord had said.(KJV)

Exodus 8:32 And Pharaoh hardened his heart at this time also, neither would he let the people go.

Do you see now? Ask yourselves important questions sir. Is your heart hardened against God

Why don't you address the verses where God HIMSELF hardened pharaohs heart.
Instead you seek refuge in verses that suit YOUR idea of God!

But you're not to blame.
Religion starts with an assertion.
Science starts with a question!

david_hume:

Why don't you address the verses where God HIMSELF hardened pharaohs heart.
Instead you seek refuge in verses that suit YOUR idea of God!

But you're not to blame.
Religion starts with an assertion.
Science starts with a question!

smh

Joshthefirst: judas chose and fulfilled his destiny. He choose to betray jesus because of his greed that was already evident. He choose his path. Mind you, judas's name was never called in scripture. The ball was in his court, and he chose to swallow it(). What he did was just foreknown, and was used by God in the plan of salvation. Mind you, judas's name was never mentioned. And Judas repented after he betrayed Jesus. At least, he showed remorse and returned the money, but he didn't trust God enough to forgive him like peter, who denied Jesus too. And he went and hanged himself.

Jesus was born to save man and fulfil scripture. If he died in any other way, he wouldn't have fulfilled scripture and he wouldn't be our messiah.

haaa! Oga frank take am easy ooo I am not coveting God's position ooo! abeg! I am not foolish

U are just reading the scripture and giving meaning to it the way u deem fit. U cannot convince me that way bro.

U say judas chose his destiny yet u answer that the scriptures wouldn't have been fulfilled if Jesus hadn't died the way he did. U have not answer to all that is asked.
Yes the answers may b right to u, but there are very flawed to me. My problem with u is that u think all the nonsense u believe is the only right believe. Wrong bro... I find all u type laughable. Honestly I wonder how u believe all the rubish u talk and condemn me for seeing the flaws in them.
Jesus was meant to die the way he died, there is nothing he could have done about it, and like u said, if he had not betrayed jesus, the scriptures wouldn't have been fulfilled.

I decided to dig up this thread because the issues discussed are still very relevant. Pleas take a few momments to read the thread and let us debate the issues.
Those who were on the thread before can also continue where they left off.
Happy new year everyone.
Themadame.

Joshthefirst: an atheist might soon come here to indoctrinate you ma'am.

Man does not attain perfection by death.
When we die, we stand before God in judgement. If you have done sin, you stand condemned. And God as a judge judge, will condemn any sinful man to hell. If you have never sinned in your life, you're okay. But as far as I know, all have sinned. That's why we need Jesus. With his sacrifice, we are acquitted before God.

The bolded excerpt of your post reveals that sin is actually a crime -- divine crime. Unlike what most posters say herein, destruction and suffering are not the natural consequences of sin, rather God imposes suffering and destruction as punishments for sins. In other words, to sin is not cause one's self harm, rather attract God's punishment.

I would use Adam as an example. God ordered Adam not to eat the fruit, and contrary to the order/law, Adam did. Adam's sin does not throw him out of the Garden, rather God did as punishment

The next issue is: would there be sin without God.

No, because the law has its justification in God's power and nothing else. In other words, God is just saying his own!

Therefore if man has freewill, he can legitimately will whatever he wants without regard for God's interest.

Good evening.

Kay 17:

The bolded excerpt of your post reveals that sin is actually a crime -- divine crime. Unlike what most posters say herein, destruction and suffering are not the natural consequences of sin, rather God imposes suffering and destruction as punishments for sins. In other words, to sin is not cause one's self harm, rather attract God's punishment.

I would use Adam as an example. God ordered Adam not to eat the fruit, and contrary to the order/law, Adam did. Adam's sin does not throw him out of the Garden, rather God did as punishment

yes, and this punishment was for his own good. And for the good of creation. Man could not enjoy a freestate while under the new bondage of sin, with a corrupt nature prone to rebellion. God as a just judge would never allow sin to be unpunished, he'd never put man in the tyranny of life without redemption.

Kay 17:
The next issue is: would there be sin without God.

No, because the law has its justification in God's power and nothing else. In other words, God is just saying his own!

Therefore if man has freewill, he can legitimately will whatever he wants without regard for God's interest.

no. Gods interest is central to the matter. It is his universe, his will, his rules, his judgements, his patterns. We cannot use our freewill against his purpose. That would be rebellion against the designer, the head, the authority. Our freewill is to find joy in fulfilling his purpose.

@Joshthefirst, do you believe every man has a destiny?

@joshthefirst

1. Hope you realise Hell is part of the punishment, it sounds strange that you claim the punishment is for the good of man. Consequently suffering is for the good of man? (I partially believe suffering is necessary for man, however Christianity sees it different, and it becomes a contradictory for it to approve of suffering)

2. Freewill mean free will, you desire/will anything. There is no bound will or obligations. If there are such, you can break it. Sometimes to turn away from authority is to fulfill the desire to be one's self. Man cast his destiny as he wishes, rather than what God wishes.

JonesK: @Joshthefirst, do you believe every man has a destiny?

yes I do. I believe man was created for a purpose, I believe every man's destiny is predetermined by his creator.

I also believe that man can choose to walk in his destiny, and find his purpose, or rebel against his creator and refuse to fulfill his divine destiny.

Kay 17: @joshthefirst
1. Hope you realise Hell is part of the punishment, it sounds strange that you claim the punishment is for the good of man. Consequently suffering is for the good of man? (I partially believe suffering is necessary for man, however Christianity sees it different, and it becomes a contradictory for it to approve of suffering)

hell was not strictly for man. The "lake of fire" is eternal punishment created first for the angels that rebelled against God. Then for all who are rebellious. And Yes. Imagine if God had refused to evict man from the garden. Imagine if he allowed man to live forever. No. Imagine if as we are in this present world, we could live forever. It would be worse than hell. God gave punishment, for the benefit of mankind, in general, and even, in the case of suffering, personally. Suffering can make us better sometimes. Christianity sees suffering as the product of sin. And also as a way God uses to correct, and teach, and refine us humans who submit to him.

Kay 17: 2. Freewill mean free will, you desire/will anything. There is no bound will or obligations. If there are such, you can break it. Sometimes to turn away from authority is to fulfill the desire to be one's self. Man cast his destiny as he wishes, rather than what God wishes.

Yes.

But in regards to the bolded, turning away from Gods authority, is not in any way born out of any such desire to be "one's self". It is born out of lust and selfish and sinful rebellion. And yes. Man chooses his destiny. Freewill enables man to be able to choose what God has ordained for him, and find satisfaction and Joy in fulfilling his purpose. Or rebel against what God has ordained, and even against Gods nature and universe, and be punished.

God did not want to create robots who cannot realize , who cannot choose. He created men, with freewill, with intelligence with powerful mind. But with freewill comes dangerous power, and the possibility of rebellion.

This is the world God created.
He is God.

The point is that the Bible potrays God as possessing the attribute of omniscience. God has complete and unlimited infinite knowledge and total awareness of everything. Nothing can be hidden from God.
If we take the above definition as true, how can we say man is free? If man is not free then how is man accountable for his actions/sins?
In my opinion, God has determined everything and any struggle by mankind to change anything is puny and an exercise in futility.

@joshthefirst

Mention people that Hell helps

Also, lus, selfishness wouldn't be sins if there was no God. Sin is what God doesn't like. But one man's meat is another's poison. There is no true justifications for sin.

Joshthefirst: ok, here's my first question:
what's your relationship with Allah? Since this thread is between mankind and God. What are you to him?
I am a slave of the Most Gracious(Allah).He is my Lord and my purpose on earth is to worship Him and obey his orders and if I do so,he would not punish me.....Peace

I find it sad that we as black people have come so far and freed ourselves from slavery, and have had the practice outlawed worldwide, after 400 years of the international slave trade.
That now you will wilfully call yourself a slave, trying to obey your masters orders so that he would not punish you is very upsetting to me. Can you not see that slavery is immoral. Slave owners are immoral, punishing slaves is immoral and cruel. You are not a slave, you deserve to be treated with kindness and respect, just like everyone else on this little planet.
You need to emancipate yourself from the mental slavery that keeps you in fear of punishment. It is not real.

Just because slavery was condoned in the bible and the Quran doesn't mean that it's ok to call yourself a slave. The practice was abolished hundreds of years ago as humans eventually realised that it is cruel and wrong.
Sorry, i find a human being willingly calling himself a slave afraid of his masters punishment so offensive, I just had to get that off my chest.

^^
I for one have no problem with any adherent of any religion calling him/her self a slave to God.
The question is do you obey God/Allahs laws because you do not want him to punish you or because you want to do good things?
Are you doing good because of God not punishing and rewarding you or are you doing good because it is ethical to be good.

Kay 17: @joshthefirst

Mention people that Hell helps

Also, lus, selfishness wouldn't be sins if there was no God. Sin is what God doesn't like. But one man's meat is another's poison. There is no true justifications for sin.

hell is punishment of evil. Punishment of evil will ultimately help humanity.

^^

So why are you campaigning endlessly against hell?! When it is good

TheMadame: ^^
I for one have no problem with any adherent of any religion calling him/her self a slave to God.

Yeah,we are slaves of Allah,The Most Gracious.

TheMadame: The question is do you obey God/Allahs laws because you do not want him to punish you or because you want to do good things?

Obeying Allah's laws is to save oneself from Allah's punishment.Allah says in the glorious Quran in Surah An-Nisa 4:147 -Why should Allah punish you if you have thanked (Him) and have believed in Him.And Allah is Ever All-Appreciative (of good),All- Knowing..Worship is for yourself,we don't obey Allah's laws in order to get good things of this world.We do so for the sake of the hereafter.Allah says in the glorious Quran in Surah Al-Kahf 18:46 -Wealth and children are the adornment of the life of this world.But the good righteous deeds (five compulsory prayers,deeds of Allah's obedience,good and nice talk,remembrance of Allah with glorification,praises and thanks,etc.),that last,are better with your Lord for rewards and better in respect of hope..So we don't worship Allah or obey his laws because of good things of the world like mansions etc because Allah says in Surah Ar-Room 30:37 -Do they not see that Allâh enlarges the provision for whom He wills and straitens (it for whom He wills).Verily,in that are indeed signs for a people who believe..Allah gives the good things of the world to whom he wills out of his slaves but the good things of the hereafter are solely for those that obey the laws of Allah and worship Him in this material world.

So,you can't say you are obeying Allah's laws because of the good things of this world,if Allah gives you the good things of this world then Alhamudulilah.

TheMadame: Are you doing good because of God not punishing and rewarding you or are you doing good because it is ethical to be good.

We're doing good because it's what Allah(swt),our creator has commanded us to do.
Allah says in the glorious Quran in Surah Al-Baqarah 2:195 -And spend in the Cause of Allâh (i.e. Jihâd of all kinds) and do not throw yourselves into destruction (by not spending your wealth in the Cause of Allâh),and do good.Truly,Allâh loves Al- Muhsinûn (the good-doers).Allah loves those people that do good and whatever good someone does,it's for his/her own self[Surah Al-Isra 17:7].
We expect a reward from Allah(swt) for whatsoever good we do.Allah says in the glorious Quran in Surah An-Nisa 4:40 -Surely! Allâh wrongs not even of the weight of an atom (or a small ant),but if there is any good (done),He doubles it,and gives from Him a great reward..And the best reward for the good is the reward in the hereafter and Allah knows best.

..

^
Okay,I agree that you are a slave to Allah/God, but my question again is-
1.Should human beings execute GOOD actions or do GOOD deeds because it is humane and of high moral standards to do so?
OR
2.Human beings should do GOOD actions NOT for moral or ethical reasons but because Allah/God will reward us with a place in heaven or paradise?

TheMadame: ^
Okay,I agree that you are a slave to Allah/God, but my question again is-
1.Should human beings execute GOOD actions or do GOOD deeds because it is humane and of high moral standards to do so?

Yes,it's humane to do good because the breath of Allah was breathed into man when Allah created him[Surah As-Sajadah 32:9].So,by default man is created to do good deeds in order to attain high moral standards.
Our beloved prophet Muhammad(pbuh) was reported saying on the authority of Abdullah bin Amr(May Allah be pleased with him):Allah's Apostle(pbuh) neither talked in an insulting manner nor did he ever speak evil intentionally.He used to say:The most beloved to me amongst you is the one who has the best character and manners.[Sahih Al-Bukhari Book 57,Hadith Number 104]

TheMadame: 2.Human beings should do GOOD actions NOT for moral or ethical reasons but because Allah/God will reward us with a place in heaven or paradise?

Human beings should do good actions for moral and ethical reasons because these good actions are very beloved in the sight of Allah(swt) and it is also among the commandments of Allah(swt) laid down.
The recompense of doing good deeds as promised by Allah is paradise.
For example,someone is working because he wants to change his condition and the condition of people around him by the knowledge he possesses and also loves the Job.
But at the same time,he will expect something as salary at the end of the month as his recompense.

Similarly,human beings should do good actions because it will benefit mankind and also a commandment of the creator.He also expect a reward from Allah because he's doing good actions for the sake of Allah and also for ethical reasons(which is also a commandment of the creator).


Allah says in the glorious Quran in Surah Ad-Dhariyat 51:57 -I(Allah) seek not any provision from them (i.e. provision for themselves or for My creatures)nor do I ask that they should feed Me (i.e. feed themselves or My creatures).So if Allah is telling mankind to feed themselves and feed his creatures,do good to themselves and do good to others.Don't you think people that do so deserves a recompense from their creator?

I hope you get my explanations Madame.

Man made god out of ignorance and fear.

If god made man then why he leave the majority of the world's populace in poverty and squalor?

So man does good deeds in order to avoid punishment (hell) in order to gain a fat reward (eternal life/beautiful heaven.
Man does not do good because it is ethically right to do good but because he selfishly seeks to make it to heaven?
The point is that the omnipotent and omniscient God already knows the choice that man will make between good and evil so what is the point of anything, after all God already knows those to inhabit heaven and those to inhabit hell. If he does not know or is not sure then he can not be God, for one of the attributes of God is that he is all knowing.
.