I have been into an argument with a self-proclaimed omo obatala, who knows much of Yoruba history tho some of his assertions of Yoruba history are based on his assumptions and late theories

As a Yoruba I know about the Ife history, but we should all try to learn more.

9jacrip claims to be an Obatala devotee(which I call a blunt lie, that only those who know nothing about obatala can believe).

So here's the main issues of debate.
1. There's no oral history that tells of Obatala living in Ife when Oduduwa arrived

2. Oduduwa didn't come from Mecca(his birth place would forever remain a mystery)

3. Oduduwa came alone, not with an army

4. Oduduwa was welcomed at first sight, and when he was confirmed to be the long waited king he became the first Ooni of Ile-Ife

5. Ifa had initially prophesied the coming of Oduduwa, and stated that Olodumare had promised make Oduduwa king of Ife

6. Would anybody have wanted to go against the will of Olodumare?

7. Oduduwa was destined to be king and the people waited for their king for years.

Anyway this topic is open for discussion

Great.
I'll be back in a bit

9jacrip: Great.
I'll be back in a bit

Going to cook up more baseless theories and assumptions

I don't want to get entangled in Yoruba oral traditions (being a non-Yoruba myself, one could easily say i'm talking what I don't know). But it seems that prominent Yoruba historians among them Ade Obayemi, Akinjogbin, J.F.A Ajayi, Biodun Adediran etc agree that Oduduwa was not the earliest ancestor of the Yorubas, and that the coming of Oduduwa marked a new phase, but not the first phase, of Yoruba history. If you read the chapter, 'Yorubaland to 1800' in the book 'Groundwork of Nigerian History', Akinjogbin and Ajayi mentioned the names of some Kings who were said to have rule in Ile-Ife before the coming of Oduduwa. The last of these pre-Oduduwa kings of Ife (according to Akinjogbin and Ajayi's account) was said to be Obatala, who Oduduwa took over power from.

Anyway, many accounts (different accounts) of those very early times exist. One cannot quite easy say to what extent each of these accounts contain the truth. My opinion, though.

Radoillo: I don't want to get entangled in Yoruba oral traditions (being a non-Yoruba myself, one could easily say i'm talking what I don't know). But it seems that prominent Yoruba historians among them Ade Obayemi, Akinjogbin, J.F.A Ajayi, Biodun Adediran etc agree that Oduduwa was not the earliest ancestor of the Yorubas, and that the coming of Oduduwa marked a new phase, but not the first phase, of Yoruba history. If you read the chapter, 'Yorubaland to 1800' in the book 'Groundwork of Nigerian History', Akinjogbin and Ajayi mentioned the names of some Kings who were said to have rule in Ile-Ife before the coming of Oduduwa. The last of these pre-Oduduwa kings of Ife (according to Akinjogbin and Ajayi's account) was said to be Obatala, who Oduduwa took over power from.

Anyway, many accounts (different accounts) of those very early times exist. One cannot quite easy say to what extent each of these accounts contain the truth. My opinion, though.

Nice

Oral history does state Obatala to be the last elder man(I won't say ruler or king) of Ife but also states Obatala to be the founder of Ile-Ife and first elder.

macof: I have been into an argument with a self-proclaimed omo obatala, who's assertions of Yoruba history are based on his assumptions and late theories.

As a Yoruba a know about my history, and no one can deceive me or degrade the intelligence of my ancestors and their philosophies.

9jacrip claims to be an Obatala devotee(which I call a blunt lie, that only those who know not about obatala can believe).

He claims Oduduwa used military force to claim the title of Ooni.
According to his erroneous assumptions, Obatala was leader of the ife people and when Oduduwa came from Mecca he struggled with Obatala for throne and won.
A defeated Obatala left Ife but was begged to return.

1. There's no oral history that tells of Obatala living in Ife when Oduduwa arrived

2. Oduduwa didn't come from Mecca(his birth place would forever remain a mystery)

3. Oduduwa came alone, not with an army

4. Oduduwa was welcomed at first sight, and when he was confirmed to be the long waited king he became the first Ooni of Ile-Ife

5. Ifa had initially prophesied the coming of Oduduwa, and stated that Olodumare had promised make Oduduwa king of Ife

6. Would anybody have wanted to go against the will of Olodumare? I don't think so

7. Oduduwa was destined to be king and the people waited for their king for years.

Anyway this topic is open for discussion

One thing I need to say to you is, do not call my veiw points erroneous if you have no means and hard facts to disprove them.

Having said the above, I thank you for opening this thread.

There's nothing wrong with stating I'm a devotee, I'm not just a devotee but from his lineage. If you need pictures to prove this, I'll be glad to share albeit I'd have to take them down quickly as I do not feel comfortable and never thought of putting pictures up on NL.

Truly I said Oduduwa must have used force to usurp power NOT claim the title of Ooni - how the title 'Ooni' came about is another topic entirely which I am not ready to debate, given how your thought process is shrowded in myths. I cited the 3 schools of thoughts bordering on Oduduwa's migration to Ife with the 3 stating he came with delegates/led a following. I also went further to state NO settlement/town/civilization would solely hand their sovereignty to a stranger/migrant without some sort of stiff opposition if not all out war and having said this which you still have a problem with sinking into your brains, I ask(ed) you to then tell me why Obatala was expelled if not for the stand off between both parties - remember Obatala was the ruling person in Ile-Ife at the time Oduduwa came. I then said Obatala was appeased, I did not say he begged to return/

I do not know if you're from Ife and if your elders in your family compound told you the history you seem so lost in or if you're from another yoruba town already and your people have the wrong history about Ile-Ife/Oduduwa/Obatala but like Katz, I'll try to exercise patience to school you like he does though it is hard for me.

1. I don't know what oral histories you heard but Obatala was living in Ile-Ife and was the ruling figure before Oduduwa came.

2. Yes Oduduwa did not come from Mecca (it is a theory that has been debunked severally), it is best his place of origin is left open.

3. The 3 theories about Oduduwa's migration states:

i. From the account of Obatala getting drunk on palm wine, it is said that Oduduwa took the materials needed for creation and led the 16 oye delegation to the world to begin the process.

ii. The account of Oduduwa's migration from Mecca states he had a large following, some who settled at Gobir but Oduduwa led the remaining group to Ife where he seized power.

iii. The last theory of Obatala coming from Ora Hills in Ile-Ife states that he came in with a band and usurped.

From the points above, I'll implore you to do the analysis yourself.

4. If oduduwa was welcomed at first sight then how come there was uprising between him and Obatala?

5. If had prophesied, yes but did Ifa prophecy when this political saviour would come and what he would look like? Please stop making claims you do not know except you want to supply me with the Odu Ifa that prophesied Oduduwa's coming and what it said/says?

6. Answer what made Obatala and his followers engage Oduduwa and his followers.

7. Sounds like a line from Christianity. Please stop making baseless claims, it is irritating


I beg of you, please be analytical, do not take whatever you were told hook, line and sinker. Because I'm from Ife and of Obatala's household does not mean I should take the oral histories as they are, I'll ask questions, dissect and analyse every bit, you should try it too.

Radoillo: I don't want to get entangled in Yoruba oral traditions (being a non-Yoruba myself, one could easily say i'm talking what I don't know). But it seems that prominent Yoruba historians among them Ade Obayemi, Akinjogbin, J.F.A Ajayi, Biodun Adediran etc agree that Oduduwa was not the earliest ancestor of the Yorubas, and that [size=14pt]the coming of Oduduwa marked a new phase, but not the first phase, of Yoruba history[/size] If you read the chapter, 'Yorubaland to 1800' in the book 'Groundwork of Nigerian History', Akinjogbin and Ajayi mentioned the names of some Kings who were said to have rule in Ile-Ife before the coming of Oduduwa. The last of these pre-Oduduwa kings of Ife (according to Akinjogbin and Ajayi's account) was said to be Obatala, who Oduduwa took over power from.

Anyway, many accounts (different accounts) of those very early times exist. One cannot quite easy say to what extent each of these accounts contain the truth. My opinion, though.

@ The bolded: This is what I've tried to explain to our man severally and I've mentioned it in one of my posts to him.

See this:

Finally, I would not go with the Benin version because its premise is shaky (clapperton, sultan and Johnson were the propagators of east migration which has been debunked but usurped by Benin historians). For me, Obatala to Oduduwa's period marked a shift/change in the socio-political sphere in Ile-Ife which has been tagged with several myths. Ife people had Osangangan Obamakin, Opereti, Awurebe, Omogberaye has kings way before Obatala/Oduduwa's period, so it is likely they had a shift in the kingship structure and it became much more cohesive and defined. I would suggest wherever Oduduwa came from be left open and not ascribed to anywhere at all. Who knows, he might have come from Ile-Ife since the settlements were scattered.

macof:

Nice

Oral history does state Obatala to be the last elder man(I won't say ruler or king) of Ife but also states Obatala to be the founder of Ile-Ife and first elder.

What FVcking Oral history is that and where the FVck did you get it from? Quit defacing Ife/Yoruba history please. If you know nothing about it just shut it and ask questions. I wonder who is feeding you with all of these craps. No oral history stated Obatala to be the last elder - he was the ruler and no Obatala did not found Ile-Ife.

I feel like chopping your fingers off! What is with the rubbish you're typing.

Please what school do/did you attend and did you study History? Gawwd!

'Osangangan, Obamakin, Opereti....' I recognize these names! The same names were mentioned by Akinjogbin in the book i've read as Kings in Ife before the time of Oduduwa and Obatala... Interesting.

Radoillo: 'Osangangan, Obamakin, Opereti....' I recognize these names! The same names were mentioned by Akinjogbin in the book i've read as Kings in Ife before the time of Oduduwa and Obatala... Interesting.

Good.
Thank you for your reasonable contribution even though you're not Yoruba you appear to grasp the argument than our Mr. Macof.
Your contributions are highly welcome sir.

9jacrip:

One thing I need to say to you is, do not call my veiw points erroneous if you have no means and hard facts to disprove them.

Having said the above, I thank you for opening this thread.

There's nothing wrong with stating I'm a devotee, I'm not just a devotee but from his lineage. If you need pictures to prove this, I'll be glad to share albeit I'd have to take them down quickly as I do not feel comfortable and never thought of putting pictures up on NL.

Truly I said Oduduwa must have used force to usurp power NOT claim the title of Ooni - how the title 'Ooni' came about is another topic entirely which I am not ready to debate, given how your thought process is shrowded in myths. I cited the 3 schools of thoughts bordering on Oduduwa's migration to Ife with the 3 stating he came with delegates/led a following. I also went further to state NO settlement/town/civilization would solely hand their sovereignty to a stranger/migrant without some sort of stiff opposition if not all out war and having said this which you still have a problem with sinking into your brains, I ask(ed) you to then tell me why Obatala was expelled if not for the stand off between both parties - remember Obatala was the ruling person in Ile-Ife at the time Oduduwa came. I then said Obatala was appeased, I did not say he begged to return/

I do not know if you're from Ife and if your elders in your family compound told you the history you seem so lost in or if you're from another yoruba town already and your people have the wrong history about Ile-Ife/Oduduwa/Obatala but like Katz, I'll try to exercise patience to school you like he does though it is hard for me.

1. I don't know what oral histories you heard but Obatala was living in Ile-Ife and was the ruling figure before Oduduwa came.

2. Yes Oduduwa did not come from Mecca (it is a theory that has been debunked severally), it is best his place of origin is left open.

3. The 3 theories about Oduduwa's migration states:



From the points above, I'll implore you to do the analysis yourself.

4. If oduduwa was welcomed at first sight then how come there was uprising between him and Obatala?

5. If had prophesied, yes but did Ifa prophecy when this political saviour would come and what he would look like? Please stop making claims you do not know except you want to supply me with the Odu Ifa that prophesied Oduduwa's coming and what it said/says?

6. Answer what made Obatala and his followers engage Oduduwa and his followers.

7. Sounds like a line from Christianity. Please stop making baseless claims, it is irritating


I beg of you, please be analytical, do not take whatever you were told hook, line and sinker. Because I'm from Ife and of Obatala's household does not mean I should take the oral histories as they are, I'll ask questions, dissect and analyse every bit, you should try it too.

More erroneous claims based on assumptions. Thats all u do you really know nothing about Ife, Oduduwa or Obatala.

I thought you had some info u were hiding from the kwara thread but it seems you stated all you think you know already

you ask me for prove and odu Ifa, as if you have any. Do u even know anything about Ifa?
Pls u are making a fool of yourself with this claim of Military conflicts which is only based on assumptions.

I have said countless times that Obatala came to earth many times hoping to be made king but failed, he only got maximum respect and honor but was never considered to be king of Ile-Ife(if you are truly an Obatala devotee you would know this)

You say Obatala and his followers battled Oduduwa and his followers, who are these Oduduwa followers and where did they come from? Pls stop watching too much nollywood, and reading western versions of Yoruba history. No one can know our history better than us.
You just want to prove to be one smart guy smart guy isn't wat u showing with ur post anyway. You can't separate Yoruba history and spirituality, one is derived from the other

Pls wat religion do u practice or are u an atheist?

macof:

More erroneous claims based on assumptions. Thats all u do you really know nothing about Ife, Oduduwa or Obatala.

I thought you would post sensible things but you have continued with your well known errors.

you ask me for prove and odu Ifa, as if you have any. Do u even know anything about Ifa?
Pls u are making a fool of yourself with this claim of Military conflicts which is only based on assumptions.

I have said countless times that Obatala came to earth many times hoping to be made king but failed, he only got maximum respect and honor but was never considered to be king of Ile-Ife(if you are truly an Obatala devotee you would know this)

You say Obatala and his followers battled Oduduwa and his followers, who are these Oduduwa followers and where did they come from? Pls stop watching too much nollywood, and reading western versions of Yoruba history. No one can know our history better than us.

Pls wat religion do u practice or are u an atheist?

I'm close to classifying you as a troll.

Erronrous and based on assumptions because they do not mirror your false claims?

Since you have refused to learn, I give up.

Anyways, have you ever attended any Itapa festival? If not then the next one is January, make sure you attend. It will provide answers to your confusions and you'd get the chance to meet people to interview and we might even meet and I'd take you to meet my uncles (which Obalesun is one).

So are you from Ife or no?

9jacrip:




I'm close to classifying you as a troll.

Erronrous and based on assumptions because they do not mirror your false claims?

Since you have refused to learn, I give up.

Anyways, have you ever attended any Itapa festival? If not then the next one is January, make sure you attend. It will provide answers to your confusions and you'd get the chance to meet people to interview and we might even meet and I'd take you to meet my uncles (which Obalesun is one).

So are you from Ife or no?

My claims are not false, they are backed up by Oral traditions and Ifa
Unless u say Ifa lies, and that ancient Yoruba are foolish.

I have friends who are full Aborisha, both in Yorubaland and Americas I have brought you case before them and I see you are a fraud.

I am from Ekiti and we are people vast in Ifa and Oral traditions. Ooni of Ife can never claim wat u say, he is a very educated man but knows when to prevent western exposure from ruining his Yorubaness.

This is the third time I'll ask; are you a atheist and if not wat religion do u practice?

macof:

My claims are not false, they are backed up by Oral traditions and Ifa
Unless u say Ifa lies, and that ancient Yoruba are foolish.

I have friends who are full Aborisha, both in Yorubaland and Americas I have brought you case before them and I see you are a fraud.

I am from Ekiti and we are people vast in Ifa and Oral traditions. Ooni of Ife can never claim wat u say, he is a very educated man but knows when to prevent western exposure from ruining his Yorubaness.

This is the third time I'll ask; are you a atheist and if not wat religion do u practice?

LMAO! @ the bolded/coloured.
Everything you have said are all false but I'll let it slide.
I give up but I'll let my picture speak to you.

1. the picture could be anybody
2. Being from Obatala's lineage doesn't mean u know him. Wat does Ifa have to say about Obatala? you seem to want to debunk Ifa lol an Obatala devotee wouldn't do such, he would only try to look for deeper interpretations to the stories of Ifa and bring them to light. Obatala has never been an enemy of Ifa so you can't be devoted to him
3. 4th time I ask u; wat is ur religious belief?

macof:
1. the picture could be anybody
2. Being from Obatala's lineage doesn't mean u know him. Wat does Ifa have to say about Obatala? you seem to want to debunk Ifa lol an Obatala devotee wouldn't do such, he would only try to look for deeper interpretations to the stories of Ifa and bring them to light. Obatala has never been an enemy of Ifa so you can't be devoted to him
3. 4th time I ask u; wat is ur religious belief?

1. You're an idiot for that! I could give you my FB page link and you'd see the same face WTF?!

2. OK and not being from Obatala's lineage means you do not know him at all. I'm not debunking Ifa, I would never do that. I'm only trying to be analytical since we share thoughts on NL in a bid to derive abd exchange knowledge. If you had said to look at it from the Olorisa angle then fine but doing that in the first place would make me question why I went to school to study history in the first place.

3. What does my belief have to do with the discussion? I said I'd let the picture speak with you. I've been trying to spoon feed you and to help your mind step up but this time - deduce what the picture says.

LASTLY: Kindly stick to topic. Give a response to Radoillo's salient point about Obatala/Oduduwa being a shift in political phase and also read my posts from above and post a reasonable rejoinder. Anything short of this, I am quitting the thread

1. I don't know what oral histories you heard but Obatala was living in Ile-Ife and was the ruling figure before Oduduwa came.

2. Yes Oduduwa did not come from Mecca (it is a theory that has been debunked severally), it is best his place of origin is left open.

3. The 3 theories about Oduduwa's migration states:

i. From the account of Obatala getting drunk on palm wine, it is said that Oduduwa took the materials needed for creation and led the 16 oye delegation to the world to begin the process.

ii. The account of Oduduwa's migration from Mecca states he had a large following, some who settled at Gobir but Oduduwa led the remaining group to Ife where he seized power.

iii. The last theory of Obatala coming from Ora Hills in Ile-Ife states that he came in with a band and usurped.


From the points above, I'll implore you to do the analysis yourself.

4. If oduduwa was welcomed at first sight then how come there was uprising between him and Obatala?

5. If had prophesied, yes but did Ifa prophecy when this political saviour would come and what he would look like? Please stop making claims you do not know except you want to supply me with the Odu Ifa that prophesied Oduduwa's coming and what it said/says?

6. Answer what made Obatala and his followers engage Oduduwa and his followers.

7. Sounds like a line from Christianity. Please stop making baseless claims, it is irritating

Radoillo: I don't want to get entangled in Yoruba oral traditions (being a non-Yoruba myself, one could easily say i'm talking what I don't know). But it seems that prominent Yoruba historians among them Ade Obayemi, Akinjogbin, J.F.A Ajayi, Biodun Adediran etc agree that Oduduwa was not the earliest ancestor of the Yorubas, and that [size=14pt]the coming of Oduduwa marked a new phase, but not the first phase, of Yoruba history If you read the chapter, 'Yorubaland to 1800' in the book 'Groundwork of Nigerian History', Akinjogbin and Ajayi mentioned the names of some Kings who were said to have rule in Ile-Ife before the coming of Oduduwa. The last of these pre-Oduduwa kings of Ife (according to Akinjogbin and Ajayi's account) was said to be Obatala, who Oduduwa took over power from.[/size]

Anyway, many accounts (different accounts) of those very early times exist. One cannot quite easy say to what extent each of these accounts contain the truth. My opinion, though.

Macof, you did not open this thread with humility. You do know that it could end up as reference points in future discussions here.

Please modify your opening with some "omoluabi" tone.

9jacrip,

I catch your point, however, Yoruba history and culture can never be narrated accurately based strictly on logic and analytical premise.

How would you begin to describe the authority of Obatala or Oduduwa stripped of their mythical meanings or spiritual customs?

Certain things can be argued from a empirical angle, but the historical roots and beginning on Yoruba as rendered in oral history, written hostory, sculpted arts, poetic oratories, theatrical plays, worship rituals, dynastic lines, racial creeds, and so on and so forth...contain more than enough self truths to act as the beacon for our quest.

Our problem is we debunk and dismiss the oral parts and their contents as untrustworthy but depended on the written version , which themselves were collections from orators, to serve as our navigating authority.

Reproduced from the original thread.

@ 9jacrip & macof


A few books provide that there were small states within Ife – Oke Ora under Oduduwa, Idena under Oreluere, Itapa and Ideta under Obatala, Ita Yemoo under Yemoo (Obatala’s wife), Igbo Olokun under Olokun (Oduduwa’s wife). It would appear that Oduduwa conquered the other areas because there are separate accounts of revolt against Oreluere and Obatala.

Sources
Culture, Politics and Money Among the Yoruba – Toyin Falola
Ife Before Oduduwa (Isola Olomola) an excerpt found in Professor Akijogbin’s The Cradle of a Race
American, African, and Old European Mythologies – Yves Bonnefoy

See excerpt from Olodumare, God in Yoruba Belief – Bolaji Idowu

‘It is not certain what his original name was, but it could have been Oduduwa ….. We learn from Oral Tradition that when Oduduwa arrived in Ile Ife, there was already a community of aboriginal people under the leadership of Oreluore. The tradition persists that when Oduduwa arrived with his colonizing party, he at first did not pay any respect to Oreluere or recognize his headship. He was haughty and disdainful in his attitude.’


But in the absence of reading those books (It is almost impossible to find that Akinjogbin book today), please see below.


‘While no one could precisely say what motivate ‘ogboni’ cult or confraternity, to come into being in Ife-Oodaye, but postulations in Yoruba mythology, shed light on the pre-Oduduwa era in the IIe-Ife, when ‘Obatala’ and Oreluere were the ruling chieftains of the Aborigine Ife-speaking community. ‘Awo’ ogboni, among so many other ‘Awos’(i.e cults) in Ife then, became so prominent and relevant, more as a pressure group to protest the unceremonious arrival of the great colonial master in history, (i.e.) Oduduwa, just as certian people of today’s Nigeria, first resisted the coming of the British imperialism, so also, the aboriginal Ife people and their particularly leader, Obatala; vehemently resisted the unexpected arrival of Oduduwa and his followers into Ile-ife. But when they could not withstand the might and high political network of Oduduwa, these ancient Ife people, resorted to cover activities, by making use of their ogboni group to determine oduduwa’s authority. And in most cases, against oduduwa’s people themselves, who were not their members. Most of these terrorist acts take place during the life time of Queen MOREMI, an Ofa indigene, married to ORANMIYAN, one of the Ife kings at that time.’

http://oloolutof./ogboni-fraternity-the-oyo-perspective/



So to settle the debate between 9jacrip and macof – there are two accounts which are intertwined.
1. A cosmogonic/mythological one which provides that Olodumare gave the task of creating the world to Obatala but Oduduwa ended up completing the task with Obatala creating man - macof
2. A more realistic historical one in which Oduduwa surreptitiously conquered the Ife area by defeating Obatala (who may have also been Oreluere). This account is strengthened by the abandonment of Ife by the Ugbo (Ilaje/Mahin) but who later resort to guerilla tactics to retake Ife. I believe this ties in with the Moremi legend. It also fits in perfectly with the Itapa festival that is celebrated in Ife. - 9jacrip

Thank you to both of you. I have had to revert to old books for this which has provided some clarity for me. I have often wondered why Agboniregun was in Ife when Oduduwa arrived there. Something else to ponder, according to Akinjogbin and other Yoruba historians, there were at least 93 kings before Oduduwa. This fits in well with my belief that there were several Yoruba groups around at the same time as Ife pre-Oduduwa and why the Ijebu have always maintained that they are not from Ife.

stop mixing Spirituality with history.

sometime Kings have names of Gods or in some cases like Shango, the names of Kings are used to replace the older ways of calling particular Gods (e.g., Jakuta).

This maybe for many reasons, including the works and characteristics of the ruler, etc.

@Katz: I'm on the phone, I'd respond once I'm on the pc.

~double post~

MetaPhysical: 9jacrip,

I catch your point, however, Yoruba history and culture can never be narrated accurately based strictly on logic and analytical premise.

How would you begin to describe the authority of Obatala or Oduduwa stripped of their mythical meanings or spiritual customs?

Certain things can be argued from a empirical angle, but the historical roots and beginning on Yoruba as rendered in oral history, written hostory, sculpted arts, poetic oratories, theatrical plays, worship rituals, dynastic lines, racial creeds, and so on and so forth...contain more than enough self truths to act as the beacon for our quest.

Our problem is we debunk and dismiss the oral parts and their contents as untrustworthy but depended on the written version , which themselves were collections from orators, to serve as our navigating authority.

@Metphysical:

Thank you for your input and I'm glad you caught my drift.

'Yoruba history and culture can never be narrated accurately based strictly on logic and analytical premise'. That excerpt from your post is beautiful and I'm of that school of thought as regards Yoruba history but then, this is Nairaland, discussions of such nature can only be looked at from logic and analytical premise. Reason being that, to deviatte from that would mean saturating the internet/NL/readers with myths which could easily be disproved or brushed to one side AND in order to really discuss Yoruba history from the angle you have posited then one would have to dig into Ifa and 'awo' knowledge, both which are jealously guarded - I would not in a bid to share Yoruba history divulge things of such nature over the internet and even if you and I did, the history of Yoruba embedded within Ifa corpus still requires 'logic and analytical premise' because an average Joe would find it difficult to tear apart and put together a chant from an Odu which tells a history, do you catch my drift? An example of a discourse where Ifa was analyzed in a bid to connect the dots is https://www.nairaland.com/1362494/yoruba-origin-history-canaanland-connection w

If you read my post, I'm not debunking oral history - taani Baba mi ti ma fi wa fi owo wor itan aroba si egbe kan? All I've been trying to do is to connect this oral histories to give a reasonable view. Mr Macof who's bent on oral history has been touting incomplete and embellished version of history from a previous page and that is another problem. Most do not know the full/complete oral history and if we begin to look into it, our history would rather become smeared and distorted rather than factual and cohesive.

I hope I've made some sense.

Katsumoto: Reproduced from the original thread.

@ 9jacrip & macof


A few books provide that there were small states within Ife – Oke Ora under Oduduwa, Idena under Oreluere, Itapa and Ideta under Obatala, Ita Yemoo under Yemoo (Obatala’s wife), Igbo Olokun under Olokun (Oduduwa’s wife). It would appear that Oduduwa conquered the other areas because there are separate accounts of revolt against Oreluere and Obatala.

Sources
Culture, Politics and Money Among the Yoruba – Toyin Falola
Ife Before Oduduwa (Isola Olomola) an excerpt found in Professor Akijogbin’s The Cradle of a Race
American, African, and Old European Mythologies – Yves Bonnefoy

See excerpt from Olodumare, God in Yoruba Belief – Bolaji Idowu

‘It is not certain what his original name was, but it could have been Oduduwa ….. We learn from Oral Tradition that when Oduduwa arrived in Ile Ife, there was already a community of aboriginal people under the leadership of Oreluore. The tradition persists that when Oduduwa arrived with his colonizing party, he at first did not pay any respect to Oreluere or recognize his headship. He was haughty and disdainful in his attitude.’


But in the absence of reading those books (It is almost impossible to find that Akinjogbin book today), please see below.


‘While no one could precisely say what motivate ‘ogboni’ cult or confraternity, to come into being in Ife-Oodaye, but postulations in Yoruba mythology, shed light on the pre-Oduduwa era in the IIe-Ife, when ‘Obatala’ and Oreluere were the ruling chieftains of the Aborigine Ife-speaking community. ‘Awo’ ogboni, among so many other ‘Awos’(i.e cults) in Ife then, became so prominent and relevant, more as a pressure group to protest the unceremonious arrival of the great colonial master in history, (i.e.) Oduduwa, just as certian people of today’s Nigeria, first resisted the coming of the British imperialism, so also, the aboriginal Ife people and their particularly leader, Obatala; vehemently resisted the unexpected arrival of Oduduwa and his followers into Ile-ife. But when they could not withstand the might and high political network of Oduduwa, these ancient Ife people, resorted to cover activities, by making use of their ogboni group to determine oduduwa’s authority. And in most cases, against oduduwa’s people themselves, who were not their members. Most of these terrorist acts take place during the life time of Queen MOREMI, an Ofa indigene, married to ORANMIYAN, one of the Ife kings at that time.’

http://oloolutof./ogboni-fraternity-the-oyo-perspective/



So to settle the debate between 9jacrip and macof – there are two accounts which are intertwined.
1. A cosmogonic/mythological one which provides that Olodumare gave the task of creating the world to Obatala but Oduduwa ended up completing the task with Obatala creating man - macof
2. A more realistic historical one in which Oduduwa surreptitiously conquered the Ife area by defeating Obatala (who may have also been Oreluere). This account is strengthened by the abandonment of Ife by the Ugbo (Ilaje/Mahin) but who later resort to guerilla tactics to retake Ife. I believe this ties in with the Moremi legend. It also fits in perfectly with the Itapa festival that is celebrated in Ife. - 9jacrip

Thank you to both of you. I have had to revert to old books for this which has provided some clarity for me. I have often wondered why Agboniregun was in Ife when Oduduwa arrived there. Something else to ponder, according to Akinjogbin and other Yoruba historians, there were at least 93 kings before Oduduwa. This fits in well with my belief that there were several Yoruba groups around at the same time as Ife pre-Oduduwa and why the Ijebu have always maintained that they are not from Ife.

I saw it on the other thread while on my phone but I'll post a reply here since the other thread appears hijacked.

A few books provide that there were small states within Ife – Oke Ora under Oduduwa, Idena under Oreluere, Itapa and Ideta under Obatala, Ita Yemoo under Yemoo (Obatala’s wife), Igbo Olokun under Olokun (Oduduwa’s wife). It would appear that Oduduwa conquered the other areas because there are separate accounts of revolt against Oreluere and Obatala.

Going by the excerpt quoted above, then you would agree I've raised this point (though I did not go into details) which Mr Macof kept shouting down and I keep wondering why. In a nutshell, I mentioned there were settlements in Ife before Oduduwa came which he conquered and appeared to have unified and urshered Ife into a new political dawn 'Ooniship'. I mentioned points related to the excerpts you provided in my earlier posts on this thread.


@ the red-bolded: I still find it hard to connect the Ugbo/Ilaje's invasion and taking Ife people as captives with the Oduduwa's obaship. Reason being this Ilaje's terrorist act came very much later when Ile-Ife had become cohesive and issue of Obatala/Oduduwa long gone. Ilaje was said to have left around 10th C, while Offa was said to have been founded in 14th C. (http://www.ilajecwa.org.uk/history.htm and http://oduna.org/platform/content/history-offa). If these periods are anything to go by, would it then mean Ugbos have continued to raid Ife for captives for many centuries? If it was during Oranmiyan's period - Oyo was founded around 14th C too, when when did the Oyo Prince Olafagangan leave to found Offa? I wrote a dissertation on Edi Festival in Ife-Ife(Moremi's heroic act and the festival in rememberance). The people I interviewed couldn't state specifically which of the Oonis was on seat during Ugbo raids, plus, I do not think it has anything to do with Oduduwa usurping power.

Further at the red-bolded: The Ugbo/Moremi is Edi festival which has nothing to do with Itapa festival (Obatala, Oduduwa, Obameri, Oramfe, Yemoo etc). They are far apart and not connected. Please do not confuse it.

From the above, there are so many histories lost in pre-oduduwa and Oduduwa's era which I wouldn't like for us to mix-up.

I would love to look into the Agboniregun's issue with you.

9jacrip:



I saw it on the other thread while on my phone but I'll post a reply here since the other thread appears hijacked.



Going by the excerpt quoted above, then you would agree I've raised this point (though I did not go into details) which Mr Macof kept shouting down and I keep wondering why. In a nutshell, I mentioned there were settlements in Ife before Oduduwa came which he conquered and appeared to have unified and urshered Ife into a new political dawn 'Ooniship'. I mentioned points related to the excerpts you provided in my earlier posts on this thread.


@ the red-bolded: I still find it hard to connect the Ugbo/Ilaje's invasion and taking Ife people as captives with the Oduduwa's obaship. Reason being this Ilaje's terrorist act came very much later when Ile-Ife had become cohesive and issue of Obatala/Oduduwa long gone. Ilaje was said to have left around 10th C, while Offa was said to have been founded in 14th C. (http://www.ilajecwa.org.uk/history.htm and http://oduna.org/platform/content/history-offa). If these periods are anything to go by, would it then mean Ugbos have continued to raid Ife for captives for many centuries? If it was during Oranmiyan's period - Oyo was founded around 14th C too, when when did the Oyo Prince Olafagangan leave to found Offa? I wrote a dissertation on Edi Festival in Ife-Ife(Moremi's heroic act and the festival in rememberance). The people I interviewed couldn't state specifically which of the Oonis was on seat during Ugbo raids, plus, I do not think it has anything to do with Oduduwa usurping power.

Further at the red-bolded: The Ugbo/Moremi is Edi festival which has nothing to do with Itapa festival (Obatala, Oduduwa, Obameri, Oramfe, Yemoo etc). They are far apart and not connected. Please do not confuse it.

From the above, there are so many histories lost in pre-oduduwa and Oduduwa's era which I wouldn't like for us to mix-up.

I would love to look into the Agboniregun's issue with you.

I wasn't implying that the Itapa festival is connected with the Moremi saga, I was merely giving a summary of your position and explaining the subsequent actions of the Ugbo were fled Ife after Oduduwa. Without actual verifiable dates, it is futile to attempt definitive logic to all situations. We know the Ugbo carried on raiding Ife after Oduduwa/Obatala and we know Moremi came after Oduduwa.

Katsumoto: Reproduced from the original thread.

@ 9jacrip & macof


A few books provide that there were small states within Ife – Oke Ora under Oduduwa, Idena under Oreluere, Itapa and Ideta under Obatala, Ita Yemoo under Yemoo (Obatala’s wife), Igbo Olokun under Olokun (Oduduwa’s wife). It would appear that Oduduwa conquered the other areas because there are separate accounts of revolt against Oreluere and Obatala.

Sources
Culture, Politics and Money Among the Yoruba – Toyin Falola
Ife Before Oduduwa (Isola Olomola) an excerpt found in Professor Akijogbin’s The Cradle of a Race
American, African, and Old European Mythologies – Yves Bonnefoy

See excerpt from Olodumare, God in Yoruba Belief – Bolaji Idowu

‘It is not certain what his original name was, but it could have been Oduduwa ….. We learn from Oral Tradition that when Oduduwa arrived in Ile Ife, there was already a community of aboriginal people under the leadership of Oreluore. The tradition persists that when Oduduwa arrived with his colonizing party, he at first did not pay any respect to Oreluere or recognize his headship. He was haughty and disdainful in his attitude.’


But in the absence of reading those books (It is almost impossible to find that Akinjogbin book today), please see below.


‘While no one could precisely say what motivate ‘ogboni’ cult or confraternity, to come into being in Ife-Oodaye, but postulations in Yoruba mythology, shed light on the pre-Oduduwa era in the IIe-Ife, when ‘Obatala’ and Oreluere were the ruling chieftains of the Aborigine Ife-speaking community. ‘Awo’ ogboni, among so many other ‘Awos’(i.e cults) in Ife then, became so prominent and relevant, more as a pressure group to protest the unceremonious arrival of the great colonial master in history, (i.e.) Oduduwa, just as certian people of today’s Nigeria, first resisted the coming of the British imperialism, so also, the aboriginal Ife people and their particularly leader, Obatala; vehemently resisted the unexpected arrival of Oduduwa and his followers into Ile-ife. But when they could not withstand the might and high political network of Oduduwa, these ancient Ife people, resorted to cover activities, by making use of their ogboni group to determine oduduwa’s authority. And in most cases, against oduduwa’s people themselves, who were not their members. Most of these terrorist acts take place during the life time of Queen MOREMI, an Ofa indigene, married to ORANMIYAN, one of the Ife kings at that time.’

http://oloolutof./ogboni-fraternity-the-oyo-perspective/



So to settle the debate between 9jacrip and macof – there are two accounts which are intertwined.
1. A cosmogonic/mythological one which provides that Olodumare gave the task of creating the world to Obatala but Oduduwa ended up completing the task with Obatala creating man - macof
2. A more realistic historical one in which Oduduwa surreptitiously conquered the Ife area by defeating Obatala (who may have also been Oreluere). This account is strengthened by the abandonment of Ife by the Ugbo (Ilaje/Mahin) but who later resort to guerilla tactics to retake Ife. I believe this ties in with the Moremi legend. It also fits in perfectly with the Itapa festival that is celebrated in Ife. - 9jacrip

Thank you to both of you. I have had to revert to old books for this which has provided some clarity for me. I have often wondered why Agboniregun was in Ife when Oduduwa arrived there. Something else to ponder, according to Akinjogbin and other Yoruba historians, there were at least 93 kings before Oduduwa. This fits in well with my belief that there were several Yoruba groups around at the same time as Ife pre-Oduduwa and why the Ijebu have always maintained that they are not from Ife.

Kasumoto,
I have few observations on this.

If Oduduwa was racially different to the aborigines of Ife like Obatala and company, then

1. Who spoke Yoruba tongue, the aborigines or the migrants?

2. If Obatala's wife was Yemooja, then her realm must have extended from Ife to the coast given that she is a sea godess. If this were true, then the Ijebu must have arrived over the sea and not by land to their spot. If they arrived over land, they traversed through an already populated land and as foreigners they would have been contained much earlier and limited far hinterland. The only way they could have arrived overland and been allowed by the aboriginal Ifes to settle deep in their realm would be if this contact was initiated by invitation (as is case in the episode of King Solomon inviting Queen Sheba and giving them settlement on the Suez coast), or the Ijebu arrivals fought and defeated the aborigines and took land where they wanted.

3. If Oduduwa was married to Olookun, then they migrated from a sea coast.

4. How do you explain that the two Queens are sea cults and where one is indigenous, the other is foreign but yet neither is domiciled on a sea coast?

Note - I made these theories on the understanding that Yemooja and Olookun, as cults is not unique and exclusive to Yoruba. It has universal application and particularly in Egyptian cults.

9jacrip:


@Metphysical:

Thank you for your input and I'm glad you caught my drift.

'Yoruba history and culture can never be narrated accurately based strictly on logic and analytical premise'. That excerpt from your post is beautiful and I'm of that school of thought as regards Yoruba history but then, this is Nairaland, discussions of such nature can only be looked at from logic and analytical premise. Reason being that, to deviatte from that would mean saturating the internet/NL/readers with myths which could easily be disproved or brushed to one side AND in order to really discuss Yoruba history from the angle you have posited then one would have to dig into Ifa and 'awo' knowledge, both which are jealously guarded - I would not in a bid to share Yoruba history divulge things of such nature over the internet and even if you and I did, the history of Yoruba embedded within Ifa corpus still requires 'logic and analytical premise' because an average Joe would find it difficult to tear apart and put together a chant from an Odu which tells a history, do you catch my drift? An example of a discourse where Ifa was analyzed in a bid to connect the dots is https://www.nairaland.com/1362494/yoruba-origin-history-canaanland-connection w

If you read my post, I'm not debunking oral history - taani Baba mi ti ma fi wa fi owo wor itan aroba si egbe kan? All I've been trying to do is to connect this oral histories to give a reasonable view. Mr Macof who's bent on oral history has been touting incomplete and embellished version of history from a previous page and that is another problem. Most do not know the full/complete oral history and if we begin to look into it, our history would rather become smeared and distorted rather than factual and cohesive.

I hope I've made some sense.

I agree. Eje ka fi iye ati suru la ona fun awon ara ti'mbe l'eyin. Pele pele l'ogba.

9jacrip:



I saw it on the other thread while on my phone but I'll post a reply here since the other thread appears hijacked.



Going by the excerpt quoted above, then you would agree I've raised this point (though I did not go into details) which Mr Macof kept shouting down and I keep wondering why. In a nutshell, I mentioned there were settlements in Ife before Oduduwa came which he conquered and appeared to have unified and urshered Ife into a new political dawn 'Ooniship'. I mentioned points related to the excerpts you provided in my earlier posts on this thread.


@ the red-bolded: I still find it hard to connect the Ugbo/Ilaje's invasion and taking Ife people as captives with the Oduduwa's obaship. Reason being this Ilaje's terrorist act came very much later when Ile-Ife had become cohesive and issue of Obatala/Oduduwa long gone. Ilaje was said to have left around 10th C, while Offa was said to have been founded in 14th C. (http://www.ilajecwa.org.uk/history.htm and http://oduna.org/platform/content/history-offa). If these periods are anything to go by, would it then mean Ugbos have continued to raid Ife for captives for many centuries? If it was during Oranmiyan's period - Oyo was founded around 14th C too, when when did the Oyo Prince Olafagangan leave to found Offa? I wrote a dissertation on Edi Festival in Ife-Ife(Moremi's heroic act and the festival in rememberance). The people I interviewed couldn't state specifically which of the Oonis was on seat during Ugbo raids, plus, I do not think it has anything to do with Oduduwa usurping power.

Further at the red-bolded: The Ugbo/Moremi is Edi festival which has nothing to do with Itapa festival (Obatala, Oduduwa, Obameri, Oramfe, Yemoo etc). They are far apart and not connected. Please do not confuse it.

From the above, there are so many histories lost in pre-oduduwa and Oduduwa's era which I wouldn't like for us to mix-up.

I would love to look into the Agboniregun's issue with you.

It is known that Ijebu and Itsekiri share same dialect. Between these two locations are Mahin and Ilaje. Given the linearity in their geo-positions, it is hard not to appreciate that all four - Ijebu, Mahin, Ilaje and Itsekiri - speak same dialect.

Referring back to Kasumoto's hint on Ijebu's foreign footprint, is it possible that what is described simply as a raid and incursion was actually a war from a settlement of foreign people on the coast?

If Ijebu came from Wadai, as their history shows, then they are part of the ancient Himyarites, the Yemeni dynastic rulers of ancient times. They were boat peoples and seafarers.

If Ugbo was a separate from Ijebu and was indigeneous, how did they end up from the savannah and became riverine people?

PAGAN 9JA:
stop mixing Spirituality with history.

sometime Kings have names of Gods or in some cases like Shango, the names of Kings are used to replace the older ways of calling particular Gods (e.g., Jakuta).

This maybe for many reasons, including the works and characteristics of the ruler, etc.

I understand this but I go by what I heard.

I don't assume or try to add into the history of Ife.

I never for once heard of any military conflict between Oduduwa and ife people.

According to wat the Ooni of ife says and also the oral history that has been passed from generations; Oduduwa was a fulfillment of prophecy.

Spirituality has been mixed with history there not by me
I dont see why some people don't believe in the oral history and decide to make assumptions

macof:

I understand this but I go by oral history.

I don't assume or try to add into the history of Ife.

I never for once heard of any military conflict between Oduduwa and ife people.

According to wat the Ooni of ife says and also the oral history that has been passed from generations; Oduduwa was a fulfillment of prophecy.

Spirituality has been mixed with history there not by me.
I dont see why some people don't believe in the oral history and decide to make assumptions

At the first bolded: this is what I'm saying. Different oral history from different souces - some detailed, some not so detailed due to overtime embellishments or how well our sources are privy to information. You not ever hearing oduduwa engaged Obatala/ife in conflict shows you need to do more findings because if we begin to go in the line of core oral history then I'm afraid there are/would be so many things you have never heard that you would start fighting and protesting against as you have done so far.

When did Olubuse discuss oral history as being fulfillment of prophecy with you? And who are your sources of oral history? Oduduwa family compound? Ile Olorisa? Obameri compound? Or at least regular Ife indegenes?

If you have not gone to gone to ife to do a one on one interview with either of this compound heads with regards to Oduduwa advent then permit me to completely fault your claims and ask you to speak less on it because you are apparently distorting history.

If saburi, akinjogbin, falola, ade-ajayi classed yoruba history as spirituality then we might as well not have historiography on Yoruba - abi you would have preferred we continue to propagate oral history that is fast withering away in this new age of 'westernization' where most people do not want to be attached to culture, which they think is barbaric?

macof:

Nice

Oral history does state Obatala to be the last elder man(I won't say ruler or king) of Ife but also states Obatala to be the founder of Ile-Ife and first elder.

Obatala must have been a title just like the present titles across many Kingdoms may be that was why he could be the founder and also the last ruler Oduduwa met

Katsumoto: Reproduced from the original thread.

@ 9jacrip & macof


A few books provide that there were small states within Ife – Oke Ora under Oduduwa, Idena under Oreluere, Itapa and Ideta under Obatala, Ita Yemoo under Yemoo (Obatala’s wife), Igbo Olokun under Olokun (Oduduwa’s wife). It would appear that Oduduwa conquered the other areas because there are separate accounts of revolt against Oreluere and Obatala.

Sources
Culture, Politics and Money Among the Yoruba – Toyin Falola
Ife Before Oduduwa (Isola Olomola) an excerpt found in Professor Akijogbin’s The Cradle of a Race
American, African, and Old European Mythologies – Yves Bonnefoy

See excerpt from Olodumare, God in Yoruba Belief – Bolaji Idowu

‘It is not certain what his original name was, but it could have been Oduduwa ….. We learn from Oral Tradition that when Oduduwa arrived in Ile Ife, there was already a community of aboriginal people under the leadership of Oreluore. The tradition persists that when Oduduwa arrived with his colonizing party, he at first did not pay any respect to Oreluere or recognize his headship. He was haughty and disdainful in his attitude.’


But in the absence of reading those books (It is almost impossible to find that Akinjogbin book today), please see below.


‘While no one could precisely say what motivate ‘ogboni’ cult or confraternity, to come into being in Ife-Oodaye, but postulations in Yoruba mythology, shed light on the pre-Oduduwa era in the IIe-Ife, when ‘Obatala’ and Oreluere were the ruling chieftains of the Aborigine Ife-speaking community. ‘Awo’ ogboni, among so many other ‘Awos’(i.e cults) in Ife then, became so prominent and relevant, more as a pressure group to protest the unceremonious arrival of the great colonial master in history, (i.e.) Oduduwa, just as certian people of today’s Nigeria, first resisted the coming of the British imperialism, so also, the aboriginal Ife people and their particularly leader, Obatala; vehemently resisted the unexpected arrival of Oduduwa and his followers into Ile-ife. But when they could not withstand the might and high political network of Oduduwa, these ancient Ife people, resorted to cover activities, by making use of their ogboni group to determine oduduwa’s authority. And in most cases, against oduduwa’s people themselves, who were not their members. Most of these terrorist acts take place during the life time of Queen MOREMI, an Ofa indigene, married to ORANMIYAN, one of the Ife kings at that time.’

http://oloolutof./ogboni-fraternity-the-oyo-perspective/



So to settle the debate between 9jacrip and macof – there are two accounts which are intertwined.
1. A cosmogonic/mythological one which provides that Olodumare gave the task of creating the world to Obatala but Oduduwa ended up completing the task with Obatala creating man - macof
2. A more realistic historical one in which Oduduwa surreptitiously conquered the Ife area by defeating Obatala (who may have also been Oreluere). This account is strengthened by the abandonment of Ife by the Ugbo (Ilaje/Mahin) but who later resort to guerilla tactics to retake Ife. I believe this ties in with the Moremi legend. It also fits in perfectly with the Itapa festival that is celebrated in Ife. - 9jacrip

Thank you to both of you. I have had to revert to old books for this which has provided some clarity for me. I have often wondered why Agboniregun was in Ife when Oduduwa arrived there. Something else to ponder, according to Akinjogbin and other Yoruba historians, there were at least 93 kings before Oduduwa. This fits in well with my belief that there were several Yoruba groups around at the same time as Ife pre-Oduduwa and why the Ijebu have always maintained that they are not from Ife.

Agree with the bolded. It looks reasonable to me.