The fact that a saviour was born for the slavation of mankind is the most important
thing to me.
The date is immaterial...

tpia@:
The facts as we know them are:


Humans and angels both celebrated Jesus birth.

As per if this was binding on christians in general, is a matter of debate.

Not celebrating christmas is a matter of choice, if your religious beliefs occlude it, there is nothing wrong with that. However, instead of condemning people who do celebrate it, why not reach out to them with the gospel instead.

These are the facts:

1) Humans who knew and also angels rejoiced at the birth of Christ, but no indication the date was celebrated repeatedly. Angels are recorded as rejoicing when God does something monumental - like creating the earth ( Job 38:7), but no indication it was a recurring act for same event.
2) Faithful worshippers of God, be they Jews or later Christians in the bible are not recorded as celebrating birthdays, even though birthday celebrations were common among non-worshippers of God at the time.
3) Christmas is a celebration copied from non-Biblical religious celebrations for pagan gods - date, elements of decorations including the trees, gift-sharing as part of the celebration, even the name Yuletide - all copied from the original non-biblical religious celebrations. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yule
4) Christ was not born in Dec 25 - date of Christ's birth is not known and it's likely in earlier months, not deep in winter - as shepherds were out in the field at the time of birth.
5) The Bible already contains clear instructions of how to remember Christ ( Luke 22:19, 1Cor 11:23-25). Christ also pointedly said - "If you love me, keep my commands" (John 14:15).

The big question though is, what does the Bible say about incorporating/adopting/renaming pagan religious practices/celebrations as part of worship to God? Does God welcome such?

tpia@:
The facts as we know them are:


Humans and angels both celebrated Jesus birth.

As per if this was binding on christians in general, is a matter of debate.

Not celebrating christmas is a matter of choice, if your religious beliefs occlude it, there is nothing wrong with that. However, instead of condemning people who do celebrate it, why not reach out to them with the gospel instead.

If you get the point I made above, we wont go too far. People always get happy when a new infant is born, this does not connote birthday celebration. It is just the joy of receiving a new born. And that of Messiah comes with a greater joy because of what he is going to do. However, nothing like birthday celebration is mentioned in the scriptures for Jesus. When I say birthday celebration, we all know is the commemoration of one's birth. It is not done the day he is born.

Secondly, it is true that our religion is essential. however, will you fall into the ditch 'cos your religion said so?

Advent is here again!
Happy christmas in advance!!!

@ trogunn and jmanos


this is my stand on the matter:


romans 14

5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it.

but i do see your points, thanks for sharing.

tpia@:
@ trogunn and jmanos


this is my stand on the matter:

romans 14

5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it.


but i do see your points, thanks for sharing.

Thanks. I do see you point in Romans 14:5,6. However, the context of that chapter of Romans was about matters of conscience that does not flout God's set laws - it dealt largely with eating meat or being vegetarian and also talks of setting aside days for worship - these are matters of personal decision.

This should not be construed to mean acts that flout God's laws are acceptable, or are matters of personal decision. God expressly forbids us to mix pagan religious practices in worshipping him - "what fellowship can light have with darkness"? ( 2Cor6:14).

God's dealings with the Jews makes this very clear. He rejected the Jews adoption of pagan religious practices, even though the Jews may claim it was for worshipping God, "a feast to Yahweh/Jehovah" - example in Exodus 32.

Same reason we have no record of the early Christians adopting pagan religious practices or celebrations dedicated to pagan gods as part of their worhip to the true God.

When it comes to remembering Christ's sacrifice, the instructions are quite clear in the scriptures (1Cor 11:1, 23-25).

truthislight:

The quoted scripture is a reference to gentiles being brought into the new covenant i think.

You wish what i said was true, smh.

That is true are Gentiles. In other words if any who are in union with Christ goes back to doing what was written in the scriptures are no longer in union with Christ, we revert back to being (Gentiles) pagans as we do not know God.

Here is the point we are gentiles and God never made a covenant with any of us. God only made a covenant with one nation of people. They are the proplr of Israel whom we call the Jews.

So therefore if some one can show where God changed his mind and made a covenant just like he did with the people of Israel then we do not know God because we as Gentlies have no Law and Commands from God to live out our lives here on earth by.

Following is themaking of the first covenant:

Exo 19:1-8 In the third month, when the children of Israel were gone forth out of the land of Egypt, the same day came they into the wilderness of Sinai. For they were departed from Rephidim, and were come to the desert of Sinai, and had pitched in the wilderness; and there Israel camped before the mount. And Moses went up unto God, and the LORD called unto him out of the mountain, saying, Thus shalt thou say to the house of Jacob, and tell the children of Israel; Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and how I bare you on eagles' wings, and brought you unto myself. Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine: And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel. And Moses came and called for the elders of the people, and laid before their faces all these words which the LORD commanded him.
Exo 19:8 And all the people answered together, and said, All that the LORD hath spoken we will do. And Moses returned the words of the people unto the LORD.

------------------

Exo 19:5-6 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine: And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

Exo 19:8 And all the people answered together, and said, All that the LORD hath spoken we will do. And Moses returned the words of the people unto the LORD.
----------------
There is another covenant which makes the first covenant obsolete which is xalled the Spirit of grace but we as gentiles have to come through the Jews for our salvation.

[This verse below doesn't say anything about a member of the Church clergy being over the house of God.]

Isn't Jesus a Jew?

Heb 10:16-19 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin. Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
-----------
Heb 10:21 And having an high priest over the house of God;
==========
Heb 10:16-31 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; And having an high priest over the house of God;

Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water. Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:

Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching. For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
-----------------------------
[The only way for one to receive eternal salvation is by obeying Jesus. In other words by obeying the Law of Cgrist, but the Churches have the congregations paying tiths and giving offerrings and donations which is the Law of Moses, but they have not taught the members the law of Moses to obey God by.]

Heb 5:9-10 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.

-------------------------

Heb 5:5-10 So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee. As he saith also in another place, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec. Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared; Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.
---------------------------

What none of you know is that the Church denies Jesus as God come to earth as a human being by the name of Jesus to save his people, who are the Jews, and it is written in the scriptures for all to read.

Mat 1:21-23 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins. Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
--------------------
Mat 1:18-25 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost. Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a publick example, was minded to put her away privily. But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.
And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins. Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife: And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.
----------------

If any of you can find out who "Heli" is then you would find out who you are worshiping and it isn't Jesus.

Luk 3:23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli,
---------------


[And it isn't in the Old Testament either.]

1Sa_1:9 Hannah got up after she had finished eating and drinking in Shiloh. Now Eli the priest was sitting on the chair by the doorpost of the tent of the LORD.

-------------------

That is no error either.

King James Bible:
1Sa 15:29 And also the Strength of Israel will not lie nor repent: for he is not a man, that he should repent.

Better understanding from the International Standard Version:

1Sa 15:29 Moreover, the Glory of Israel does not lie or change his mind, for he's not a man that he should change his mind."

My Bible:
1Sa_15:29 Moreover, the Eternal One of Isra'el will not lie or change his mind, because he isn't a mere human being subject to changing his mind."

------------------

So all the names that are in the Old Testament should be the exact same when mentioned in the New Testament.

But what you don't understand is that you are reading bible translated by the Gentile Church Founders not the scriptures of God's Covenant people whom God gave his Law and Commands to.

My Bible:
1Sa_15:29 Moreover, the Eternal One of Isra'el will not lie or change his mind, because he isn't a mere human being subject to changing his mind."
--------------
Your pastors have never told any of you about this verse here and that is why I usee the scriptures.

[This comes from one of the Church Bibles, the ISV.]

Pro 30:4-6 Who has ascended to heaven, and then descended? Who has collected the wind in his hands? Who has wrapped up waters in a garment? Who has established all the farthest points of the earth? What is his name, and what is his son's name? Surely you know! Everything God says is pure; he is a shield for those who take refuge in him. Don't add to his words, or he will rebuke you, and you will be shown to be a liar.

Royll:

That is true are Gentiles. In other words if any who are in union with Christ goes back to doing what was written in the scriptures are no longer in union with Christ, we revert back to being (Gentiles) pagans as we do not know God.

Here is the point we are gentiles and God never made a covenant with any of us. God only made a covenant with one nation of people. They are the proplr of Israel whom we call the Jews.

So therefore if some one can show where God changed his mind and made a covenant just like he did with the people of Israel then we do not know God because we as Gentlies have no Law and Commands from God to live out our lives here on earth by.

Following is themaking of the first covenant:

Exo 19:1-8 In the third month, when the children of Israel were gone forth out of the land of Egypt, the same day came they into the wilderness of Sinai. For they were departed from Rephidim, and were come to the desert of Sinai, and had pitched in the wilderness; and there Israel camped before the mount. And Moses went up unto God, and the LORD called unto him out of the mountain, saying, Thus shalt thou say to the house of Jacob, and tell the children of Israel; Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and how I bare you on eagles' wings, and brought you unto myself. Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine: And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel. And Moses came and called for the elders of the people, and laid before their faces all these words which the LORD commanded him.
Exo 19:8 And all the people answered together, and said, All that the LORD hath spoken we will do. And Moses returned the words of the people unto the LORD.

------------------

Exo 19:5-6 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine: And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

Exo 19:8 And all the people answered together, and said, All that the LORD hath spoken we will do. And Moses returned the words of the people unto the LORD.
----------------
There is another covenant which makes the first covenant obsolete which is xalled the Spirit of grace but we as gentiles have to come through the Jews for our salvation.

[This verse below doesn't say anything about a member of the Church clergy being over the house of God.]

Isn't Jesus a Jew?

Heb 10:16-19 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin. Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
-----------
Heb 10:21 And having an high priest over the house of God;
==========
Heb 10:16-31 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; And having an high priest over the house of God;

Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water. Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:

Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching. For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
-----------------------------
[The only way for one to receive eternal salvation is by obeying Jesus. In other words by obeying the Law of Cgrist, but the Churches have the congregations paying tiths and giving offerrings and donations which is the Law of Moses, but they have not taught the members the law of Moses to obey God by.]

Heb 5:9-10 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.

-------------------------

Heb 5:5-10 So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee. As he saith also in another place, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec. Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared; Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.
---------------------------

What none of you know is that the Church denies Jesus as God come to earth as a human being by the name of Jesus to save his people, who are the Jews, and it is written in the scriptures for all to read.

Mat 1:21-23 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins. Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
--------------------
Mat 1:18-25 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost. Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a publick example, was minded to put her away privily. But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.
And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins. Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife: And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.
----------------

If any of you can find out who "Heli" is then you would find out who you are worshiping and it isn't Jesus.

Luk 3:23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli,
---------------


[And it isn't in the Old Testament either.]

1Sa_1:9 Hannah got up after she had finished eating and drinking in Shiloh. Now Eli the priest was sitting on the chair by the doorpost of the tent of the LORD.

-------------------

That is no error either.

King James Bible:
1Sa 15:29 And also the Strength of Israel will not lie nor repent: for he is not a man, that he should repent.

Better understanding from the International Standard Version:

1Sa 15:29 Moreover, the Glory of Israel does not lie or change his mind, for he's not a man that he should change his mind."

My Bible:
1Sa_15:29 Moreover, the Eternal One of Isra'el will not lie or change his mind, because he isn't a mere human being subject to changing his mind."

------------------

So all the names that are in the Old Testament should be the exact same when mentioned in the New Testament.

But what you don't understand is that you are reading bible translated by the Gentile Church Founders not the scriptures of God's Covenant people whom God gave his Law and Commands to.

My Bible:
1Sa_15:29 Moreover, the Eternal One of Isra'el will not lie or change his mind, because he isn't a mere human being subject to changing his mind."
--------------
Your pastors have never told any of you about this verse here and that is why I usee the scriptures.

[This comes from one of the Church Bibles, the ISV.]

Pro 30:4-6 Who has ascended to heaven, and then descended? Who has collected the wind in his hands? Who has wrapped up waters in a garment? Who has established all the farthest points of the earth? What is his name, and what is his son's name? Surely you know! Everything God says is pure; he is a shield for those who take refuge in him. Don't add to his words, or he will rebuke you, and you will be shown to be a liar.

This is not in line with the thread.