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Who Is The Son Of God And The Son Of Man To The Grail Message. - Religion - Nairaland

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Who Is The Son Of God And The Son Of Man To The Grail Message. by chusben(m): 12:53pm On Sep 20, 2008
To the best of my knowlege the son of God remains Jesus Christ, but the grail message people are always using the son of man. Please if you are a member in this forum i want to know who this son of man is?
Re: Who Is The Son Of God And The Son Of Man To The Grail Message. by justcool(m): 8:57pm On Sep 20, 2008
@chus-ben

Thanks for bringing up this issue. I will start by clarifying something. There is nothing like a member of the Grail Message. The Grail Message is not a religion, neither is it a cult nor a sect. The Grail message is a book written by Abd-ru-shin, a book which answers all questions concerning existence, -man, creation, Jesus, God, and etc. People who have read the book and adhere to its principles are called adherents of the Grail message. There are adherents who decide to get sealed, the sealed one is given a cross which he/she wears; such an adherent is called a cross bearer. Being a cross bearer does not make one a member of any religion, movement or cult. The obligation which comes from the sealing is simply between the individual and God. There are also adherents who decide not to get sealed. There are adherents who still remain in their present churches.
Some cross bearers come together to form a movement, whose main purpose is to distribute the work "In The Light of Truth," to make the book available to any body, and also to provide centers where cross bearers can come and worship God on sundays. They also conduct public lectures  explaining the principles of the Grail Message. Such movements, i.e the Grail Movement of America, the Grail Movement of Nigeria, and etc are not religions.

The author of the Grail Message never wished to found a new religion.

Now about the son of Man.
In creation God(WHO is one) expresses HIMSELF in three persons: God the Father, the son of God, and the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the creative will of God out of whom creation came into existence. He is the arm through which God created. Hence, "And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters." (Genesis 1:2). This Holy Spirit or the Spirit of God is not just a force but a person, just like Jesus. Just as Jesus is the love of God, Imanuel is the Holy Spirit. A part of Him remains at the highest point in creation as the king of Creation; it is only in the radiation of this part of Imanuel could creation come into being. He is both the King of Creation -- ruler of the world-- and also the Judge, since all the laws of creation, including the law of sowing and reaping, issued out of Him. He is the living Justice of God. It is Him(The Holy Spirit, the Spirit of God, or the Spirit of Truth) that will judge the earth when the earth reaches the time appointed for it to be judged. Like I already said, A part of this Spirit of God(Imanuel) remains at the summit of Primodial Spiritual Planes. Beneath the Primodial Spiritual Planes lies the spiritual planes, the lowest part of which is the true home of man. He is the part of Imanuel that is anchored in Creation, and being a part of Imanuel, He is identical to Imanuel which means God with us. Imanuel is the hand through which God created man. He is the son of God out of which man was created, the eternal mediator between man and God. Hence, the son of man.


But mankind living on earth disobeyed God and by the incitements of Lucifer, they became sinners. By living sinfully they shut out the light of God and brought destruction to everything on earth. The weight of their sins was so much that it diverted the earth from its normal course. The earth started heading towards destruction, if God had not intervened the earth will get destroyed before the time appointed for its judgement. When the earth was about to fall into ruins due to the sins of man, out of HIS love God intervened by sending a part of HIS love to the earth. This love of God sent to the earth to salvage the earth is Jesus. Jesus' innermost core is Divine, i.e His innermost core is God, unlike we humans whose innermost core is only spiritual. Thus Jesus is the son of God, the first begotten of the dead, i.e the first sent to mankind who were dead spiritually. While the Holy Spirit is the living Justice of God, Jesus is the living Love of God. Through Jesus, God redeemed the earth which would have fallen into destruction like Sodom and Gomorrah had Jesus not come. Through Jesus, Divine light entered the earth once more, strengthening everything. The earth received enough light and strength for it to continue till the appointed judgement time. After His mission, Jesus returned back to the Divine plane, to God the Father or at the side of God the father. Therefore eventhough Jesus is the son of God, Jesus remains in the Divine shere with God. Hence, Jesus is the inborn son of God. While the Holy Spirit is the out born son of God. 

Eventhough Jesus saved the earth from destruction, mankind did not completely understand Jesus when He was on earth, because mankind had separated themselves so much from God due to their sins. Thus when Jesus the son of God who carried Divine Truth and Divine Light came down on earth, mankind who are too enveloped in darkness could not completely understand or comprehend Him. Hence "And the light shines in darkness, and the darkness comprehends it not."(John 1:5)

Besides, mankind at the time of Jesus were too underdeveloped in their understanding, hence Jesus could not tell them everything. Hence "I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth:, " (John 16: 12-13)

Since mankind did not understand Jesus and therefore Jesus did not tell them everything, Jesus promised the disciples that when the Judge comes to judge the earth, He(the judge) will teach them all things. This judge is the Holy Spirit who is a person like Jesus. It is Him that Jesus also refer to the son of man. Jesus is the son of God, while Immanuel the Holy Spirit is the son of man.

One of the utterances of Jesus that some of the disciples did not understand is the prophecy of the coming of the son of man, the Holy spirit or Immanuel. He is the second envoy of God to the earth. Even in the Old testament, His coming was prophesied. But the disciples, along with the early Christians mixed everything up into one. They mistook the son of man to be the same as son of God Jesus. In the parts of the bible where the sayings of Jesus are accurately passed down, one can see that He was not talking of Himself when He talked about the son of man or the Holy Spirit. In some parts of the bible where the words were not passed down correctly, only there do we see the two distinct persons confused as one.

One of the prophecies was rightly passed down in the gospel of John. From the gospel of John we read:

"I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. (John 16, 12-15)

In the above you can see that Jesus was talking about a person, not just a force, neither was He talking about the power that the apostles received on the Pentecost day. A force or a power cannot speak, hear, neither can a force or power take something and shew it unto you. Only a person can do all these things. Therefore in the above verse Jesus was talking about another envoy that God will send to the earth just as God sent Jesus.

In another verse correctly passed down, Jesus called this envoy the comforter: we read:

"But the comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the father shall send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you"(John 14,20).

He is called the comforter because his teaching, which is the same original teaching of Jesus will bring comfort to those who live by it. And since He is the judge, in his Judgement the righteous will find comfort.

In another verse we read:
"Whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words , , of him also shall the son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels." (Mark 8, 38).

In the above verse you can clearly see that Jesus was not the son of man.

What the disciples received on the Pentecost is only the power of the Holy Spirit and not the Holy Spirit Himself. You can only receive power, but it is impossible for a humanbeing to receive another humanbeing literally. Jesus promised the disciples that they will receive the power of the Holy Spirit and not the Holy Spirit Himself, Whom will come in person on earth as Jesus promised in Mark 8,38.

In Luke we read:

"And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high." (Luke 24,49)

Here we see that what they received in Jerusalem on Pentecost was the power from on high, not the the Holy Spirit Himself who is a person and not just a power.

Isaiah's prophesy:

"So the Lord himself will give you this sign: A virgin will become pregnant and give birth to a son, and she will name him Immanuel [God Is With Us].
(Isaiah 7,14)(Gods word Translation Bible)

The prophesy above refers to the birth of Immanuel not Jesus. Mathew mistakingly attributed it to Jesus. Jesus was never called Immanuel. Immanuel means "God with us", "God with man"; while Jesus means "God saves,"or "God the saviour."
You see these are two different names signifying two different persons with two different roles.

In another part of the gospel of Mathew we read:

" And she shall bring forth a son; and thou shalt call his name JESUS; for it is he that shall save his people from their sins."(Mathew 1, 21)

This is the prohpecy concerning Jesus. Here we see the real name of Jesus and his role or task. Jesus and Immanuel are two different persons.

In conclusion:
Jesus is the son of God. The love or God. The first sent to earth to awaken mankind who was spiritually dead, Hence "the first begotten of the dead".  His name is Jesus which means "God saves"
God is in Him and He is one with God. Jesus Judges no body. He is the Living love of God. He remains in the divine plane as the inborn son of God.

The son of Man is also a son of God like Jesus. His name is Immanuel which means "God with us(man)." He is called the son of man because He is the hand through which God created man, and a part of Him remains in the Grail Castle at the summit of the Primodial Spiritual planes. Thus He is the God that remains with man(us), hence "God with us."  He is the Holy Spirit(Holy Ghost), Spirit of God or the Spirit of Truth whose power created everything. He is the executive Judge, who will judge all the creations of God at their appointed times. He is the Living Justice of God. It is He who, out of his laws, pays everybody his/her due payment, i.e, comfort to the broken hearted or the righteous. In His laws the evil and sinful ones will also receive their due payment, which is destruction. Hence, whoever sins or blasphemes against the Holy Spirit shall never be forgiven or go free. Each sinner must pay the price of his/her sins.
As in Jesus, God is also in Immanuel and He(Immanuel) is also one with God.

God Himself or God the father (Divinity unsubstantiate) He resides far above all the worlds, far above all creations. Paradise or the Spiritual palne is the highest plane in creation. But God the Father is far above Paradise. A part of the son of man who is The Spirit of Truth or Immanuel is in the highest part of Paradise as the judge and the ruler(prince) of the world(creation)
Jesus is in the Divine plane with God, although He is personal. He is as ruler(prince) in the Divine plane. This is His kingdom; hence, "my kingdom is not of the world." The "world" in this context means the whole creation, from Paradise to the earth. When Jesus spoke of the coming of the ruler of the world(creation), He was speaking of the comming of the son of man. In John 14:30, we read:

"I will not talk with you much longer, because the ruler of this world is coming. He has no power over me."

or in another translation of the verse we read:

"I will not now speak many things with you. For the prince of this world cometh, and in me he hath not any thing."

This means Jesus did not say every thing because men could not understand Him, but in the end times when ruler(prince) of the world(creation) comes He(the ruler/prince) will say the rest. The ruler(prince) who will come to bring judgement will come in the end times when men whould have developed enough to understand everything. This is why He(the ruler/prince) will be able to say everything, even things that Jesus did not say. The last part of the verse, "He has no power over me," shows that like the ruler(prince) of the world, Jesus is also a King. And therefore there is no power above Him. Both are of equall authority because they are both sons of God.

Also in revelation we read:

"May grace and peace be yours from the one who is, who was, and who is coming, from the seven spirits who are in front of his throne,and from Jesus the Messiah, the witness, the faithful one, the firstborn from the dead,, "(Rev.1:4-5)

In the above we see three different people.
Person #1 = the one who is, who was, and who is coming.
Person #2 = Jesus the Messiah, the witness, the faithful one, the firstborn from the dead
Person #3 = The seven spirits at the Throne.(we are not concerened with these)


Person #1 --Ths is the son of man(Immanuel, the Holy Spirit,or the Spirit of Truth). This cannot be God the father because God the father cannot come to the earth. The earth cannot carry Him. If this were God the father, then He would not be discribed as "who is coming"

Person #2 --This is Jesus Himself, since the verse simply says from Jesus the messiah.

Therefore God has two sons:
1.) Immanuel(son of man, the Spirit of Truth, or the Holy Spirit) who is, who was, who is comming.
2.) Jesus(son of God) who is the Messiah, the lamb.

Along with God the father, they make up the trinity.

Althrough revelation we keep hearing of the two sons of God, i.e "Him who sits on the Throne", and "the lamb". Niether of them is God the father because God the father can not be seen. Even the writer of revelation can never see God.  Hence: "No one has ever seen God."(1 John 4:12)

This is the trinity of God. However God remains one; the son, the  Holy Spirit, and God the father are all one, yet three different persons. And there is only one God in all of them.






All that I have written above is my perception of the Grail Message concerning the issue of the Son of Man. The references to Biblical verses are solely mine, the Grail Message does not draw from the Bible.
It draws from the purest source, from God HIMSELF.
I advice every reader of my post above to read and examine the Grail message himself.

Thanks.

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Re: Who Is The Son Of God And The Son Of Man To The Grail Message. by Ndipe(m): 10:58pm On Sep 23, 2008
From reading your story on the grail movement sounds, one would lump it along the teachings of eckankar with regards to the plane inhabitation.
Re: Who Is The Son Of God And The Son Of Man To The Grail Message. by pilgrim1(f): 11:08pm On Sep 23, 2008
@justcool,

justcool:

All that I have written above is my perception of the Grail Message concerning the issue of the Son of Man. The references to Biblical verses are solely mine, the Grail Message does not draw from the Bible.
It draws from the purest source, from God HIMSELF.

Lol, the Grail Message has no other place to find Jesus being referred to as Son of Man and Son of God other than in the Bible. I have read a few publications from the Grail Messengers (pardon my pun) who have cited references from the Bible itself, though. I think it is fair for us to admit the simple fact that the Bible is a point of reference for most of what is being discussed in the Grail Message.

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Re: Who Is The Son Of God And The Son Of Man To The Grail Message. by mnwankwo(m): 12:57pm On Sep 24, 2008
Ndipe:

From reading your story on the grail movement sounds, one would lump it along the teachings of eckankar with regards to the plane inhabitation.

I wonder how you drew the conclusion from the posting of justcool. Your conclusion is not from what justcool wrote. Justcool briefly mentioned the structure of creation and the structure before creation as revealed in the Grail Message. That description can only be found in the Grail Message. Cheers.

I think it is fair for us to admit the simple fact that the Bible is a point of reference for most of what is being discussed in the Grail Message.

Hi Pilgrim. I  do not agree with your statement above. The bible or any other sacred book is not a reference point for "most" of what is "discussed" in the Grail Message. Rather, the TRUTH is the reference for what is given in the Grail Message. Jesus Christ and his teachings is the TRUTH. That is the reason why you will find in the Grail Message several lectures on the son of God and his teachings. The author of the Grail Message says the he knows the TRUTH including the mission and teachings of Jesus Christ, the son of God. The bible also holds that it is the word of God, that is, that it contains the teachings of Jesus Christ. My view is that human beings should (if they wish) examine the two sources and determine for themselves what is the TRUTH. Stay blessed.

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Re: Who Is The Son Of God And The Son Of Man To The Grail Message. by pilgrim1(f): 3:55pm On Sep 24, 2008
Hi m_nwankow,

Although you mat agree with me, but I'm sorry to observe that you have not actually countered the fact of what I stated. There is no other place where you will find Jesus Christ particularly called Son of Man and Son of God outside the Bible - go and check. ALL authors that I know of in the Grail Message cannot deny the fact that their reference to Jesus Christ as Son of Man and Son of God is in allusion to the Bible.
Re: Who Is The Son Of God And The Son Of Man To The Grail Message. by olabowale(m): 4:41pm On Sep 24, 2008
@Pilgrim.1: Aburo mo bere oro, oo dasi, pe oloun baba kiristieni, she o sin Jesus ri; rara tabi beni. O da mi lowun. Ibi bayi lo wa wa. Oga o. Mo de ro wipe iwo lo ma ko ko da si oro no nio. Odaa. Odabo. lol. Agidi iwo obinrin yoruba yi leju.
Re: Who Is The Son Of God And The Son Of Man To The Grail Message. by pilgrim1(f): 5:20pm On Sep 24, 2008
Alhaji Olabowale,

Ema binu si mi. Mi o ri kini na, abi besi ma a ro po. wink Ba wo l'ara yin?
Re: Who Is The Son Of God And The Son Of Man To The Grail Message. by mnwankwo(m): 5:22pm On Sep 24, 2008
pilgrim.1:

Hi m_nwankow,

Although you mat agree with me, but I'm sorry to observe that you have not actually countered the fact of what I stated. There is no other place where you will find Jesus Christ particularly called Son of Man and Son of God outside the Bible - go and check. ALL authors that I know of in the Grail Message cannot deny the fact that their reference to Jesus Christ as Son of Man and Son of God is in allusion to the Bible.

Hi Pilgrim.

My point is that the Grail Message is an authority in itself. It did not derive its teachings from any other work. That is what justcool meant by "the Grail Message does not draw from the bible" That is also the sense of my penultimate post. However it seems from your post above that you  are using "reference" as "allusion or mention". Then in that sense, you are correct for  biblical teachings with respect to  Jesus, the son of God are mentioned or referenced or alluded in the Grail Message. Besides, the Grail Message is the work of ABDRUSHIN. Of course, there are many authors who derive their knowlege from the Grail Message. The work of such authors is not the Grail Message but the authors own experiencing of the Grail Message. Just like my posting is not the Grail Message but the knowledge that I have from experiencing the Grail Message. Stay blessed.
Re: Who Is The Son Of God And The Son Of Man To The Grail Message. by pilgrim1(f): 7:05pm On Sep 24, 2008
@m_nwankwo,

Okay, I hear. Just a line or two to point out, though:

(a) the author of the Grail Message's 'In the Light of Truth' does not only "alludes" to issues delineated in the Bible, he actually draws upon them from the bible to arrive at his own interpretation. My point? Simply this - Abd-Ru-Shin would have no reference whatever for those subject the way he teaches about them if he had not got his underlying terminologies from the Bible. Let me give you an example:

~ where do you think Abd-Ru-Shin got his idea of the Ten Commandments from?

~ where do you think Abd-Ru-Shin got his idea of the Lord's Prayer from?

[img]http://www.grailmessage.com/TTCL.GIF[/img] This is a copy of the book by Abd-Ru-Shin that I have perused - without doubt, he takes every single line of the Lord's prayers as found in the Bible and arrives at his own interpretation. It is going to be difficult for anyone who has read that book to claim that he was only "alluding" to the Lord's Prayer and not drawing from the Bible on that very subject. The same could be said about The Ten Commandments - Abd-Ru-Shin has no message to offer about that if we deny that he got his ideas precisely from the decalogue in the Bible to arrive at his own teaching on that subject.

(b) What about the book itself - In The Light of Truth? Are certain chapters which draw from the Biblical terminologies giving it his own interpretations be regarded as you asserted - "authority in itself"? Just think for a minute - what other books did the Bible authors borrow spiritual terminologies in their inspiration as Abd-Ru-Shin did in consulting the Bible and actually re-interpreting Biblical subjects? Let's look at a few of them:
[list][list]
[li]Volume 1[/li]
[li]3. The Anti-Christ[/li]
[li]14. The Star of Bethlehem[/li]

[li]Volume 2[/li]
[li]16. Watch and pray![/li]
[li]20. The Lord's Prayer[/li]
[li]45. The crucifixion of the Son of God and the Lord's Supper[/li]
[li]46. Come down from the Cross![/li]
[li]47. This is My body! This is My blood![/li]
[li]52. I am the Resurrection and the Life, no man cometh to the Father but by me![/li]
[li]63. The outpouring of the Holy Spirit[/li]
[li]66. Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do![/li]

[li]Volume 3[/li]
[li]36. Ask, and it shall be given unto you![/li]
[li]38. Let there be Light![/li][/list][/list]

No, it is not a matter of mere "allusions" or even of "reference" - the point is that Abd-Ru-Shin would have no authority at all on those subjects found in his book 'In The Light of Truth' if he had not taken his ideas from the bible directly and only given them his own interpretations.

A few examples:

Where did Mr. Abd-Ru-Shin get the idea about Golgotha from in the chapter on The Book of Life (Vol. 1) when he stated: "Even as the Darkness moved over Golgotha when Jesus, the Living Light, departed from this earth, so is it now moving over mankind. . . " No, this is not about "allusion" or "reference"; rather, this is about the question of where Abd-Ru-Shin got his idea about Golgotha from?

Again, what prophecies did Abd-Ru-Shin mean when he says in The Star of Bethlehem: "At that time only a few recognised the Star as the fulfilment of the prophecies"? What prophecies - from where - which book? Can you please point us to another book other than the Bible to which Abd-Ru-Shin was directly drawing from in that chapter?

You see, my dear m_nwankwo, when people assume that Abd-Ru-Shin had nothing to do with the Bible and his works were totally an authority in themselves, I find that quite a untenable gist to digest. Why? Because there is no authority in the quote above if Abd-Ru-Shin was not referring to prophecies in the Bible! But we know he was - and that is why I already made the case that he drew heavily from the Bible and the claim otherwise is untenable.

Cheers.

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Re: Who Is The Son Of God And The Son Of Man To The Grail Message. by mnwankwo(m): 8:40pm On Sep 24, 2008
a) the author of the Grail Message's 'In the Light of Truth' does not only "alludes" to issues delineated in the Bible, he actually draws upon them from the bible to arrive at his own interpretation. My point? Simply this - Abd-Ru-Shin would have no reference whatever for those subject the way he teaches about them if he had not got his underlying terminologies from the Bible. Let me give you an example:

         ~ where do you think Abd-Ru-Shin got his idea of the Ten Commandments from?

         ~ where do you think Abd-Ru-Shin got his idea of the Lord's Prayer from?


The Grail Message do not draw from the bible as you seem to suggest. First I mentioned that the reference to Grail Message is the TRUTH. That implies that wherever is the Truth will be found in the Grail Message. If there are Truth in the bible, in any other sacred text, in science etc, you will find that in the Grail Message. When such happens, there are two possible explanations: one is that the author got his authority from these sources which seems to be your persuation. The other possibility is that the author knows the Truth and as such what is true in the bible will be found in the Grail Message. My persuation is of the later. The Ten Commandments and the Lords Prayer are the Truth and that is why you find it in the Grail Message. Therefore the ten commandments and the lords prayer were drawn from the Truth, that is they were drawn from GOD. Moses who was the instrument that God used to make the ten commandments available to mankind drew from the Truth and Jesus who gave mankind the the Lords prayer also drew from the Truth. In most  cultures people have noted that yam gives yam, tomatoes gives tomatoes. If Abdrushin then says that you reap what you sow, does it mean he drew the knowlewdge that yam gives rise to yam from these cultures? Certainly not. 

b) What about the book itself - In The Light of Truth? Are certain chapters which draw from the Biblical terminologies giving it his own interpretations be regarded as you asserted - "authority in itself"? Just think for a minute - what other books did the Bible authors borrow spiritual terminologies in their inspiration as Abd-Ru-Shin did in consulting the Bible and actually re-interpreting Biblical subjects? Let's look at a few of them:

Volume 1
3. The Anti-Christ
14. The Star of Bethlehem
Volume 2
16. Watch and pray!
20. The Lord's Prayer
45. The crucifixion of the Son of God and the Lord's Supper
46. Come down from the Cross!
47. This is My body! This is My blood!
52. I am the Resurrection and the Life, no man cometh to the Father but by me!
63. The outpouring of the Holy Spirit
66. Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do!
Volume 3
36. Ask, and it shall be given unto you!
38. Let there be Light!

No, it is not a matter of mere "allusions" or even of "reference" - the point is that Abd-Ru-Shin would have no authority at all on those subjects found in his book 'In The Light of Truth' if he had not taken his ideas from the bible directly and only given them his own interpretations.


Not at all in my view. These lectures are drawn from the Truth. The Grail Message is a continuation and consolidation of the message of Jesus, the son of God. Therefore the Grail Message discusses in detail the teachings of Jesus, the son of God. The teachings of Jesus can be found in the TRUTH, in God and that is from where ABDRUSHIN draw his message.

Where did Mr. Abd-Ru-Shin get the idea about Golgotha from in the chapter on The Book of Life (Vol. 1) when he stated: "Even as the Darkness moved over Golgotha when Jesus, the Living Light, departed from this earth, so is it now moving over mankind. . . " No, this is not about "allusion" or "reference"; rather, this is about the question of where Abd-Ru-Shin got his idea about Golgotha from?

Abdrushin drew from the Truth. The events of Golgotha is indelibly written in the book of life, that is the living law of God. Not just the event of Golgotha. In the book series titled transmitted writings, Abdrushin permitted blessed ones to document the mankind spiritual history from the very beginnig to the end. You may have to read books titled, past eras aweaken vols 1, 2, 3, From past Millenia and the Forerunner book series.

Again, what prophecies did Abd-Ru-Shin mean when he says in The Star of Bethlehem: "At that time only a few recognised the Star as the fulfilment of the prophecies"? What prophecies - from where - which book? Can you please point us to another book other than the Bible to which Abd-Ru-Shin was directly drawing from in that chapter?


The prophecies are again written in the book of life, the living law of God. He did not draw from the bible or any other book. He draw from out of himself, from the Truth. My perception is that Abdrushin saw the begining, the development and the end and thus he has personal knowledge of the events he is describing. Abdrushin even gave where the star of Bethlehem originated, its course and development. Are all these just interpretations of the star of Bethlehem? I wonder. Besides the prophecy of the star of betlehem was known to Zoroaster and his followers. I recommend that you  read another transmitted writing " Zoroaster- Life and work of the Forerunner in Persia" You can also check out this book from Amazon "Tom Kay- When the Comet Runs."

You see, my dear m_nwankwo, when people assume that Abd-Ru-Shin had nothing to do with the Bible and his works were totally an authority in themselves, I find that quite a untenable gist to digest. Why? Because there is no authority in the quote above if Abd-Ru-Shin was not referring to prophecies in the Bible! But we know he was - and that is why I already made the case that he drew heavily from the Bible and the claim otherwise is untenable.


My dear sister Pilgrim, the Grail Message drew from the eternal Truth. What ever prophecies or events that has happened or will happen is written in the book of life. It is possible to go backward or forward and draw from Time, from the laws of God what was, what is, what is to come. Stay blessed.
Re: Who Is The Son Of God And The Son Of Man To The Grail Message. by pilgrim1(f): 9:39pm On Sep 24, 2008
@m_nwankwo,

m_nwankwo:

The Grail Message do not draw from the bible as you seem to suggest. First I mentioned that the reference to Grail Message is the TRUTH. That implies that wherever is the Truth will be found in the Grail Message. If there are Truth in the bible, in any other sacred text, in science etc, you will find that in the Grail Message. When such happens, there are two possible explanations: one is that the author got his authority from these sources which seems to be your persuation. The other possibility is that the author knows the Truth and as such what is true in the bible will be found in the Grail Message. My persuation is of the later.

This is where you're making a grave mistake. The problem here is that if you ask a follower of the Grail Message if the bible is the Word of God, there answer would be a decided NO. I don't see how such people would be saying the Bible is not the word of God and at the same time you would be admitting that there are truths in the Bible.

However, there's only one answer to everything you have tried to argue out: it still simply demonstrates that there is no authority in "itself" as you hinted in reference to "In The Light of Truth". The Bible did not have to draw from other texts or "scriptures" and misinterprete them as does Abd-Ru-Shin. It would only make sense if he had tried to devise his own religion without misrepresenting the Biblical message.

m_nwankwo:

The Ten Commandments and the Lords Prayer are the Truth and that is why you find it in the Grail Message. Therefore the ten commandments and the lords prayer were drawn from the Truth, that is they were drawn from GOD. Moses who was the instrument that God used to make the ten commandments available to mankind drew from the Truth and Jesus who gave mankind the the Lords prayer also drew from the Truth. In most cultures people have noted that yam gives yam, tomatoes gives tomatoes. If Abdrushin then says that you reap what you sow, does it mean he drew the knowlewdge that yam gives rise to yam from these cultures? Certainly not.

Lol, have you not affirmed what I just said earlier? Abd-Ru-Shin drew from the Bible. If you say "No", you would definitely be contradicting your own assertion. In other words, the Bible is the Word of God from which Abd-Ru-Shin drew from as regards both the Ten Commandments and the Lord's Prayer. There is no other source where you would find the Ten Commandments or the Lord's Prayer other than in the Bible. Period.

m_nwankwo:

Not at all in my view. These lectures are drawn from the Truth. The Grail Message is a continuation and consolidation of the message of Jesus, the son of God.

Sorry, this excuse will simply not cut it. The Grail Message is not a continuation of the Biblical message - that is why anyone who reads it with a sharp understanding will see that the Grail Message is just Abd-Ru-Shin's (mis)interpretation of the Biblical message.

m_nwankwo:

Therefore the Grail Message discusses in detail the teachings of Jesus, the son of God.

That Abd-Ru-Shin "discusses" the teachings of Jesus Christ is okay, and I have no problem at all with that; afterall, there are so many people discussing the message or teachings of Jesus Christ. What the Grail Message does not do is "continue" the message, as you hinted.

m_nwankwo:

The teachings of Jesus can be found in the TRUTH, in God and that is from where ABDRUSHIN draw his message.

Lol, m_nwankwo. . . If the teachings of Jesus can be found in the TRUTH, what is that truth? Where? If you're finding it so difficult to simply state that the teachings of Jesus can be found in the BIBLE, I can understand your dilemma. If someone asserts that the teachings of Jesus can be found in XYZ, they want to know what XYZ stands for - it cannot be an abstract notion that nobody can handle and read for themselves. The problem is made easier for us: the "TRUTH" where Jesus' teachings can be found is simply the BIBLE - that's your XYZ - that's the TRUTH. Outside of that Book, you will not find the prophecies that Abd-Ru-Shin referred to in The Star of Bethlehem. If you can source them outside the Bible, please let us know. if not, his so-called "authority" for prophecies are vague.

m_nwankwo:

Abdrushin drew from the Truth.

WHAT is this "TRUTH" apart from the Bible?

m_nwankwo:

The events of Golgotha is indelibly written in the book of life, that is the living law of God.

What is this "book of life"? You see, this play on words is not helping matters. You cannot reference GOLGOTHA outside the Bible as Abd-Ru-Shin used it. If you could, please serve it gently to us - because vague assertions will simply not do the job. If Mr. Abd-Ru-Shin believes he was giving us the "truth" and yet referring to GOLGOTHA, we should be able to check him out on his references. To shy away from doing so is simply making us candidates of gullibility.
Re: Who Is The Son Of God And The Son Of Man To The Grail Message. by pilgrim1(f): 9:40pm On Sep 24, 2008
m_nwankwo:

Not just the event of Golgotha. In the book series titled transmitted writings, Abdrushin permitted blessed ones to document the mankind spiritual history from the very beginnig to the end. You may have to read books titled, past eras aweaken vols 1, 2, 3, From past Millenia and the Forerunner book series.

Hmm, there are so many people having their own versions of the history of mankind - spirituality, psychology, evolutionary, etc. I don't have any worries about such. I only asked what reference he would have got GOLGOTHA from if it is so hard for his followers to simply admit the fact: from the BIBLE.

m_nwankwo:

The prophecies are again written in the book of life, the living law of God.

Is this book of life different from the Bible? Is it a hard thing to just say simply: "BIBLE"? cheesy You just make the assertion that the prophecies are written in the book of life - and I should assume to follow Abd-Ru-Shin's interpretation of those prophecies without knowing those prophecies for myself? Is that how the prophets interpreted prophecies? Why is it so hard to simply say "BIBLE"?

m_nwankwo:

He did not draw from the bible or any other book.

Then please do us the favour of posting those prophecies he meant. failure to do so is seriously undermining your assertions. I could show you where in the Bible those prophecies are. Could you show me any other book where you can find those prophecies?

m_nwankwo:

He draw from out of himself, from the Truth.

He drew from the Bible. QED.

m_nwankwo:

My perception is that Abdrushin saw the begining, the development and the end and thus he has personal knowledge of the events he is describing. Abdrushin even gave where the star of Bethlehem originated, its course and development. Are all these just interpretations of the star of Bethlehem? I wonder. Besides the prophecy of the star of betlehem was known to Zoroaster and his followers. I recommend that you read another transmitted writing " Zoroaster- Life and work of the Forerunner in Persia" You can also check out this book from Amazon "Tom Kay- When the Comet Runs."

Please do me the favour of posting the prophecies - and that will do. Until then, I would play ignorant for the time being - and when you have the occasion to delight us thereto, I would gladly show you what you are missing.

m_nwankwo:

My dear sister Pilgrim, the Grail Message drew from the eternal Truth.

Okay, I hear. I only need the book that Abd-Ru-Shin was referring to when he mentioned the prophecies.

m_nwankwo:

What ever prophecies or events that has happened or will happen is written in the book of life.

I hear. Just show me that book.

m_nwankwo:

It is possible to go backward or forward and draw from Time, from the laws of God what was, what is, what is to come. Stay blessed.

I hear. before I travel across time, please show me that book of prophecies.

Warm regards. cheesy

1 Like

Re: Who Is The Son Of God And The Son Of Man To The Grail Message. by justcool(m): 10:23pm On Sep 24, 2008
@pilgrim 1
I am happy that m_nwankwo has answered your questions. I only have this to add:
I found it strange that you (strong believer of the authenticity of Bible) can pursue that line of argument. The implication of your argument is that all the stories in the Bible is fallacy. Let me explain what I mean:

If I write a fiction, lets say I invent a fictitious character called "Monga," and I claim that Monga lives in the moon. Then if another author tells a story about a Monga who live in the moon; I can argue with certainty that he(the author) stole the idea from me. Because "Monga" is my invention.

But If there is actually a Monga that live in the moon. My accusation of the author stealing the idea from may not be true. The author could have gone to the moon and seen "Monga," or the author could have been vissited by Monga, or the author could have gained the knowledge of the existence of Monga by viewing the moon through telescope or by communicating with Monga electronically.

Lets lets apply this analogy to the Grail Message and the Bible.
If the things written in the Bible were true and actually exist, then it is possible that another person could see them too. I. e. if God actually exist and He gave Moses the ten commandments, this opens up a possibility that God can reveal the same ten commandment that He gave to Moses to another person. If you truly believe that every allusion to the ten commandment could have not come from any where else except the Bible. Then by implication, you are saying that God and the ten commandments are fictitious inventions made by Moses and other Bible writers.

When Jesus talked about the son of man, He(Jesus) did not draw His knowledge from the ancient scriptures; eventhough some of the ancient scripture before Jesus contained information about the son of man. When Jesus' utterances agree with a particular scripture, this goes to show the correctness of that particular scripture. It also shows that Jesus draw His knowledge from the same source as the writer of the scripture. To assert that Jesus draw His knowledge from that scripture is very wrong. If the source of the knowledge actually exists, then another can draw the same knowledge from HIM(the source), and not necessarily from any scripture.

Also, everything that has ever happened has been recorded by time. God can permit a person to access the archives of time, i.e. witness an event that happened thousands of years ago. This can be shown to that person in a dream. I do not want to boost of my experiences, but it might help if I tell you that I personally have once been allowed to see an event that happened thousands of years ago. This not just me, most people experience this at least once in there life times. Perharps you might have had such an experience too. You might write a book on what you were allowed to see, perhaps it is an event that was already recorded in history books. It will be very wrong for one to accuse you of plagiarising the history books which you might not have read. It will be wrong for one to accuse of drawing from the history books, just because your book mentioned the same events that is mentioned  in the History books.


All the things that you listed here,

Volume 1
3. The Anti-Christ
14. The Star of Bethlehem
Volume 2
16. Watch and pray!
20. The Lord's Prayer
45. The crucifixion of the Son of God and the Lord's Supper
46. Come down from the Cross!
47. This is My body! This is My blood!
52. I am the Resurrection and the Life, no man cometh to the Father but by me!
63. The outpouring of the Holy Spirit
66. Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do!
Volume 3
36. Ask, and it shall be given unto you!
38. Let there be Light!

These things actually exists, the utterances among the list we actually made, the events actually happened. And time has recorded them all.  God, out of His love, can permit Time to reveal them to him/her who it will help in his/her spiritual accent.

They are not only to be found in the Bible. They are all well kept in the achieves of "Time". God, who gave them is still alive and He still gives them to him so blessed.

My dear pilgrim Thanks and remain blessed.

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Re: Who Is The Son Of God And The Son Of Man To The Grail Message. by pilgrim1(f): 11:10pm On Sep 24, 2008
@justcool,

How body? Thanks for your addition and analogy. I anticipated someone might misread me, so here's the chance to clarify what you are missing.

Actually, the implication of my inputs was not to undermine the Bible in any way. Many would have feared it so, but not at all. The thing is that Abd-Ru-Shin took Biblical declarations and gave them his own interpretations. That is precisely the issue here as regards two very serious points:

(1) Biblical prophecies

(2) Biblical statements

Anyone may fancy going to the moon and writing books about their experiences. What is the real wonder is that they would make such assertions and yet quote directly from the Bible while making a case of abstract nuances. This is why I asked simply and continue to do so: where does one find those particular prophecies that Abd-Ru-Shin claims in his book as I mentioned earlier? If no one can tell, it is simply because they are too embarrassed to admit that he was referring to Biblical prophecies.

Now, what is the nature of interpretation of Biblical prophecies? Please note - I said interpretation of Biblical prophecies. Even when other prophets have tried to understand divine prophecies preceding them, they weren't vague - an example as we find in Daniel 9:2 -

[list][list]"In the first year of his reign I Daniel understood by books the number of the years, whereof the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah the prophet, that he would accomplish seventy years in the desolations of Jerusalem."[/list][/list]

Notice: if Daniel was to understand anything about the prophecies conveyed to Jeremiah, he would not be vague - and surely he was not. He mentioned books and references which others could access in his day. Of course, if I wanted to be sure about what Daniel was claiming in regards to the seventy years, all I need to do is consult the book of Jeremiah in the Bible - and sure enough the prophet Jeremiah definitely spoke of that prophecy of seventy years (see Jeremiah 25:12 and 29:10). There were no ambiguities in Daniel's reference to "books".

Now someone might object here that the verse speaks of "book[b]s[/b]" in the plural. I have no worries about that - because Daniel was definitely reading other writings besides Jeremiah. What other writings? Please see 2 Chronicles 36:21 ~~ "To fulfil the word of the LORD by the mouth of Jeremiah, until the land had enjoyed her sabbaths: for as long as she lay desolate she kept sabbath, to fulfil threescore and ten years."

What here is the issue? Two things, really:

(a) Jeremiah was one of the books that Daniel was reading; and 2 Chronicles constitute a further reference that Daniel was reading as well.

(b) Daniel was not being vague, but when he mentioned books, of course other people could go and read those same books as Daniel mentioned. Instead of speaking exoteric language of travelling to the moon and cutting through 3 times dimensions, blah, blah - he simply made his point that the "books" he had used to understand the prophecy of the seventy years were readily available for anyone to check them out!


The problem with people lifted direct quotes from the Bible and pretending that it was somewhere else they got it from is what undermines their claims. You cannot find these statements anywhere else:

52. I am the Resurrection and the Life, no man cometh to the Father but by me!
66. Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do!

These are direct lines lifted straight out of the Bible - and here are the references:

"I am the Resurrection and the Life" ~~ John 11:25
"No man cometh unto the Father, but by Me" ~~ John 14:6
"Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do" ~~ Luke 23:34

Please go and check them out! You will not find statements like those in any other veda or holy writ other than the Bible. What is even more remarkable is that those statements were lifted direct from the KJV of the Bible - which tells us what Mr. Abd-Ru-Shin has been reading all along!

I could go on and cite so many examples; but as regards the Biblical prophecies and the words lifted from the KJV of the Bible - it just simply shows the case of what I stated earlier: Grail Message draws heavily from the Bible. Anyone who doesn't agree is free to disagree; but they would need more than fancy ideas of time travel to justify their disagreement. The prophets in the Bible were not vague or abstract men - they didn't try to spin things around.

Many blessings.
Re: Who Is The Son Of God And The Son Of Man To The Grail Message. by justcool(m): 11:19pm On Sep 24, 2008
@pilgrim 1
I was going to let m_nwankow answer your post which is directed to him but then I saw something that blew my mind. I have to comment on it.

pilgrim.1:


Is this book of life different from the Bible? Is it a hard thing to just say simply: "BIBLE"? cheesy You just make the assertion that the prophecies are written in the book of life - and I should assume to follow Abd-Ru-Shin's interpretation of those prophecies without knowing those prophecies for myself? Is that how the prophets interpreted prophecies? Why is it so hard to simply say "BIBLE"?


The answer is capital "NO"

The Book of life is not the Bible neither can any book written by man be the Book of Life. It is funny that all religions claim that their scriptures is the Book of Life.

Before going into what the book of life is, let remind ourselves what the Bible is. I know that you are very educated and obviously well read and intelligent and I assume that you most have read the history of the book that we call the Bible.

First of all the Bible is not a book as such. It is a room where the early fathers collected ancient scriptures and letters written by the apostles to various churches. Only later, did they compile some of the scriptures and letters written by the apostles into what we today call the bible. For example, there were more that just four gospels. The father that included only four in the bible did so, not because of the lack of authenticity of the discarded gospels; he included the four most similar, just because there are four winds -North wind, east wind, west wind, and south wind.
Most of the books in the new testament were not even written to be scriptures but rather they a personal letters that Paul or other apostles wrote to various churches.
It is unfortunate that Christians today have rather descended to the worship of the bible as an infallable word of God, even though History clearly shows how much the book have been interfered with.
Scriptures are never meant to be looked at as the Book of Life. The Scriptures are just revelations or prophecies which should bear witness to the Truth, i.e. point to the people towards the Truth. The scriptures written by man are not the ETERNAL TRUTH which only God can bring. But the scriptural prophecies are meant to prepare the people so that when the TRUTH comes, they might recognise HIM. If humans can pass down the TRUTH as such undistorted, then why did Jesus have to come to bring the TRUTH.

Even in the Bible, so many verses point to the fact that the scriptures or the bible does not grant salvation. There is no salvation in the Bible. Salvation only lies in the TRUTH, in the original words of Jesus.  From the Bible we read:

"You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me;
(John 5:39)(new American standard Bible version.)

In another translation we read:

"You study the Scriptures in detail because you think you have the source of eternal life in them. These Scriptures testify on my behalf"(John 5:39)(Gods word translation)

From the above verses we see that regarding the scriptures as the book of life or thinking that salvation lies in the scriptures is wrong. Scriptures are meant to bear witness to the Truth, i.e prepare the people for the Truth. Example the prophecy of Isaiah is meant to prepare the people for the coming of Immanuel. If people had understand Isaiah and have developed the right attitude towards his prophecy, then they will surely recognise Immanuel when He arrives. But due to their worship of the scripture, when Immanuel stands before them, they will be too bent on the scriptures to look up and recognise Him.

Even Paul warned against this. In Corinthians we read:

"For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away." (1 Corinthians 13:10) (King James Version)

Here we see the predominant writer of the New Testament tell us that they know and only prophesy in parts, i.e. their knowledge and prophesy is not complete, thus not perfect. He also reminds us to do away with their imperfect prophey when that which is perfect comes, i.e. when the TRUTH comes.

How can a book whose author honestly told you the he knows only in parts be the book of life or the infallable word of God.  This worship of the Bible, which is predominant among Christian's is a sin against the first commandment of God.

Therefore rightly considered, the bible is neither the book of life nor the infallable word of God.

The book of life which will be opened during Judgement contains the names of all the creatures that came into existence. All the creatures in creation, their names are recorded in the book of life, which only God can allow one to read. Only God knows the names of all the creatures in existence. Spiritual death is synonymous to being erased from the book of life.

Thanks and remain blessed.
Re: Who Is The Son Of God And The Son Of Man To The Grail Message. by pilgrim1(f): 11:28pm On Sep 24, 2008
@justcool,

justcool:

@pilgrim 1
I was going to let m_nwankow answer your post which is directed to him but then I saw something that blew my mind. I have to comment on it.

The answer is capital "NO"

The Book of life is not the Bible neither can any book written by man be the Book of Life. It is funny that all religions claim that their scriptures is the Book of Life.

Before going into what the book of life is, let remind ourselves what the Bible is. I know that you are very educated and obviously well read and intelligent and I assume that you most have read the history of the book that we call the Bible.

First of all the Bible is not a book as such. It is a room where the early fathers collected ancient scriptures and letters written by the apostles to various churches. Only later, did compile some of the scriptures and letters written by the apostles into what we today call the bible. For example, there were more that just four gospels. The father that included only for in the bible did so, not because of the lack of authenticity of the discarded gospels; he included the four most similar, just because there are four winds -North wind, east wind, west wind, and south wind.
Most of the books in the new testament were not even written to be scriptures but rather they a personal letters that Paul or other apostles wrote to various churches.
It is unfortunate that Christians today have rather descended to the worship of the bible as an infallable word of God, even though History clearly shows how much the book have been interfered with.
Scriptures are never meant to be looked at as the Book of Life. The Scriptures are just revelations or prophecies which should bear witness to the Truth, i.e. point to the people towards the Truth. The scriptures written by man are not the ETERNAL TRUTH which only God can bring. But the scriptural prophecies are meant to prepare the people so that when the TRUTH comes that might recognise HIM. If humans can pass down the TRUTH as such undistorted, then why did Jesus had to come to bring the TRUTH.

Even in the Bible, so many verses point to the fact that the scriptures or the bible does not grant salvation. There is no salvation in the Bible. Salvation only lies in the TRUTH, in the original words of Jesus. From the Bible we read:

"You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me;
(John 5:39)(new American standard Bible version.)

In another translation we read:

"You study the Scriptures in detail because you think you have the source of eternal life in them. These Scriptures testify on my behalf"(John 5:39)(Gods word translation)

From the above verses we see that regarding the scriptures as the book of life or thinking that salvation lies in the scriptures is wrong. Scriptures are meant to bear witness to the Truth, i.e prepare the people for the Truth. Example the prophecy of Isaiah is meant to prepare the people for the coming of Immanuel. If people had understand Isaiah and have developed the right attitude towards his prophecy, then they will surely recognise Immanuel when He arrives. But due to their worship of the scripture, when Immanuel's stands before them, they will be too bent on the scriptures to look up and recognise Him.

Even Paul warned against this. In Corinthians we read:

"For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away." (1 Corinthians 13:10) (King James Version)

Here we see the predominant writer of the New Testament tell us that they know and only prophesy in parts, i.e. their knowledge and prophesy is not complete, thus not perfect. He also reminds us to do away with their imperfect prophey when that which is perfect comes, i.e. when the TRUTH comes.

How can a book whose author honestly told you the he knows only in parts be the book of life or the infallable word of God. This worship of the Bible, which is predominant among Christian's is a sin against the first commandment of God.

Therefore rightly considered, the bible is neither the book of life nor the infallable word of God.

The book of life which will be opened during Judgement contains the names of all the creatures that came into existence. All the creatures in creation, their names are recorded in the book of life, which only God can allow one to read. Only God knows the names of all the creatures in existence. Spiritual death is synonymous to being erased from the book of life.

Thanks and remain blessed.

I think my reply just above addresses these concerns. If the case can be made with clear evidence that Abd-Ru-Shin got those Biblical statements from anywhere else other than from the KJV of the BIBLE, please show us such a "book". If otherwise such a reference or document cannot be shown, it still leaves your replies largely wanting.

Regards. wink
Re: Who Is The Son Of God And The Son Of Man To The Grail Message. by justcool(m): 11:48pm On Sep 24, 2008
pilgrim.1:

@justcool,

The problem with people lifted direct quotes from the Bible and pretending that it was somewhere else they got it from is what undermines their claims. You cannot find these statements anywhere else:

52. I am the Resurrection and the Life, no man cometh to the Father but by me!
66. Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do!

These are direct lines lifted straight out of the Bible - and here are the references:

"I am the Resurrection and the Life" ~~ John 11:25
"No man cometh unto the Father, but by Me" ~~ John 14:6
"Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do" ~~ Luke 23:34

@ pilgrim 1
Thanks again.
You are making a mistake. Please drive the nail all the way home. The source of all these references that you pasted above is not the Bible. The Bible only recorded the events. The events did not originate in the Bible, if they did then they will lies.

I am the Resurrection and the Life, no man cometh to the Father but by me!  Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do!
If we believe the Bible, then the actual source of these words is Jesus.  The source of the above sayings(which was correctly passed down in the Bible) is Jesus. Or better God or the TRUTH. The saying originated in the TRUTH, and was latter written in the Bible. Not all references to it comes from the Bible. An eyewitness could render the same account without ever reading the Bible.

John 11:25
John 14:6
Luke 23:34

All these are accounts of the saying by different disciples. The sayings did not originate from the disciples neither did the saying originate in the books or written accounts of the disciples. It is not just a fabrication of the disciples rather it the disciples account of an actual event.

I will give another example:
Supposing Obama once said, "America should make me the next President."
This saying will be carried by various news media -- Vanguard newspaper, CNN, Fox News, The Guardian Newspaper and etc.

It will be wrong to assume that whoever uses that quote got it from the news media. The person quoting may have been standing next to Obama when He said it. Although both the quoter and the news media are referencing the same quote, the quoter is only drawing from Obama and not the news media.

The origin of the word remains Obama, not the news media or the person quoting Obama. This holds true if the words are quoted or reported exactly as Obama said it.

Remain Blessed.

1 Like

Re: Who Is The Son Of God And The Son Of Man To The Grail Message. by pilgrim1(f): 12:12am On Sep 25, 2008
@justcool,

justcool:

If we believe the Bible, then the actual source of these words are Jesus.

Just out of curiosity, could I ask you pointedly: do YOU believe in the Bible?

Then what is wrong with you folks admitting that it is the Bible from where Abd-Ru-Shin lifted those statements? Just what is wrong with simply admitting to that plain truth?

justcool:

The source of the above sayings(which was correctly passed down in the Bible) is Jesus. Or better God or the TRUTH. The saying originated in the TRUTH, and was latter written in the Bible. Not all references to it comes from the Bible. An eyewitness could render the same account without ever reading the Bible.

It is queer indeed that you guys would be making these claims behind Abd-Ru-Shin's back and yet still sounding vague. I'm sorry, but I don't see how you have clarified the issues here. Even if those words are recorded in the Bible and yet the argument is that they did not originate from the Bible (any language is okay by me), if they originated from God and are found in the Bible, then what is wrong with admitting that the Bible can be trusted? Please reflect on this issue very carefully - because to come back and disparage any part of that Book will invite very cutting remarks from me about Mr Abd-Ru-Shin's books.

I find it very queer for people to draw from (no, actually LIFT statements from the KJV Bible) and yet come back and claim they originate from God! Haba! The Biblical scriptures were not even written in English; and Abd-ru-Shin was not even writing in Hebrew, Greek or Aramaic either! But isn't it queer that he would lift direct statements from the KJV Bible with Elizabethan English and you guys would assume that the verbatim statements are from the TRUTH or God or. . .? Lol. . the KJV Bible is a translation - and Abd-Ru-Shin lifted the direct KJV diction! Queer for a claim of your source.

justcool:

John 11:25
John 14:6
Luke 23:34

All these are accounts of the saying by different disciples. The sayings did not originate from the deciles, neither did the saying originate in the books or written accounts of the disciples.

I hear - and for all that, Abd-Ru-Shin lifted their sayings.

justcool:

I will give another example:
Supssing Obama once said, "America should make me the next President."
This saying will be carried by various news media -- Vanguard newspaper, CNN, Fox News, The Guardian Newspaper and etc.

It will be wrong to assume that whoever uses that quote got it from the news media. The person quoting may have been standing next to Obama when He said it. Although both the quoter and the news media are referencing the same quote, the quoter is only drawing from Obama and not the news media.

The origin of the word remains Obama, not the news media or the person quoting Obama. This holds true if the words are quoted or reported exactly as Obama said it.

I like your bold - and the same thing applies when I stated that Abd-Ru-Shin lifted straight from the KJV Bible on those verses. There are other translations of the Bible in English; if it helps, here are a few examples of how those verses are rendered in them:

"I am myself that day and that life" ~~ John 11:25 (BBE - Bible in Basic English)
"I am the one who raises the dead to life" ~~ John 11:25 (CEV - Contemporary English Version)
"I am the one who brings people back to life" ~~ John 11:25 (God's WORD)
"I am the rising again, and the life" ~~ John 11:25 (YLT)

Now, even though all these are in English, can you tell me, justcool, why Mr. Abd-Ru-Shin would prefer to lift directly the KJV Bible quotes instead of any one of the above or any other? Doesn't that tell you anything as yet? You claim that he got them direct from the source - that was merely his claim; but the evidence strongly points out that he got them direct from the KJV of the Bible. QED. Anyone can see that as plain as daylight. Unless you are telling me that the native language of the "source" is KJV English?

Cheers.

1 Like

Re: Who Is The Son Of God And The Son Of Man To The Grail Message. by justcool(m): 1:32am On Sep 25, 2008
Dear pilgrim 1
Thanks again.
First of all, ABD-RU-SHIN did not write the Grail Message in English. He wrote it in German. The English version is only a translation which can only render an approximate meaning of the original German version.

Like I said earlier, He did not draw from the Bible; He drew from God. Do you believe that God knows everything that has ever happened? If so, the He(God) can also reveal it to somebody.

If Abd-ru-shin's quotes of Jesus's sayings resemble KJV. Then perharps, KJV is the most accurate translation.

My dear, I am not trying to convince you of anything. I am only being honest, I am only bringing to your notice the possibility that one can witness and report an event that was already reported in the Bible without drawing from the Bible.

If Abd-ru-shin drew from the Bible then all His interpretations will be in accord with Biblical interpretation, but this is not so. Also re-read the Ten commandments of God as Abd-ru-shin passed it down, you will see that it is not exactly the way the Bible passed it down. I will give an example:

In the Biblical ten commandments we read:

"Honor your father and your mother, as the Lord your God commanded you, so that your days may be long and that it may go well with you in the land that the Lord your God is giving you."(Deuteronomy 5: 16)

See, in the bible this commandment to directed to children to honor their father and mother. But in Abd-ru-shin's report or passdown of the commandment it is also directed to the Parents and not just the children. In Abd-ru-shin passed it down as simply:

"THOU SHALT HONOR FATHER AND MOTHER !"

In Abd-ru-shin's explanation, the commandment is not just directed to children. It is also directed to the parents to honor their role as Parents. The concept of "father" and "mother" should be honored thus the father should honnor his role as a father by being responsible father. The mother shall also honnor her role as a mother. And when parents meet this requirement, the children should honnor them.

Read Abd-ru-shin's explanation:
http://www.poznanie.sk/knowledge/religion/ten-commandments-of-god-04.php

You see the difference?

I only wish to make you understand that it is possible to witness the events described in the Bible without even ever knowing that the Bible exist. God who has recorded all thing can reveal it to you. And you can render you own account based on what you draw from God and not the Bible. You can also draw from your personal experience, if you were there when it happened.

As long as you understand this fact. The rest is up to you. You can decide that Abd-ru-shin draw from the bible; this is will be your personal decision.  But remember that you are making an accusation. You can also decide that He draw from God.

The consequence of your decision remains with you.


pilgrim.1:

@justcool,

Just out of curiosity, could I ask you pointedly: do YOU believe in the Bible?


I have already answered this question. The Bible is a collection of scriptures and personal letters that the apostles wrote to various churches. It contains the truth is fragments, i.e. the first gospel was written many years after the departure of Jesus. Thus it was told from memory and what is told from memory after many years cannever be accurate in all details.

Apart from the fact that no human being can render or replicate the TRUTH exactly as Jesus did. Humans can only give as much as their spirits was able to receive. The TRUTH in Its pure form can only come from God. That's why Jesus had to come and that's why it was reserved for the son of man. Even under inspiration man cannever be perfect. An imperfect being can never passdown the perfect TRUTH. Paul clearly admitted the imperfection of his prophecies and knowledge and admonished the reader to do away with his imperfect teachings when that which is perfect comes:

"For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away." (1 Corinthians 13:10) (King James Version)

In the gospel we are also made to understand that the scriptures cannot offer us eternal life, which we can only receive by living in accord with the TRUTH(the original words of Jesus).

"You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me;
(John 5:39)(new American standard Bible version.)

The scriptures at best could only prophecy or bear witness to the TRUTH.

All these considered, then scriptural worship is wrong! I do not believe that the Bible which contains the Truth only in parts is the eternal TRUTH or the word of GOD. Like all religious scriptures, the Bible contains the truth in parts and not in all things.

I do not believe in the Bible in all things.

[size=16pt]I believe only in GOD.[/size]

Thanks
Re: Who Is The Son Of God And The Son Of Man To The Grail Message. by mnwankwo(m): 5:05pm On Sep 25, 2008
@Pilgrim,

Thanks for your rebuttals. I have addressed your concerns. Justcool has also given you furhter clarifications. It seems our answers did not satisfy you.  There is nothing I can do about that since that is your choice and the way you percieve things. I will try to recast them and maybe it may be clearer.

This is where you're making a grave mistake. The problem here is that if you ask a follower of the Grail Message if the bible is the Word of God, there answer would be a decided NO. I don't see how such people would be saying the Bible is not the word of God and at the same time you would be admitting that there are truths in the Bible.

However, there's only one answer to everything you have tried to argue out: it still simply demonstrates that there is no authority in "itself" as you hinted in reference to "In The Light of Truth". The Bible did not have to draw from other texts or "scriptures" and misinterprete them as does Abd-Ru-Shin. It would only make sense if he had tried to devise his own religion without misrepresenting the Biblical message.


My assertion is that the Grail Message draws from the TRUTH, from God. I also said that Jesus proclaimed the TRUTH. If the Grail Message is the TRUTH, it will carry the actual teachings of Jesus Christ. When the words of Abdrushin is in harmony or the same with the words of Jesus Christ,, then it simply means that both are drawing from God, from the Truth. That is the way I know it is. I do not enter into arguments about the bible or any other sacred book for it is not  the correct thing to do in my view. If questions are raised on serious issues, I offer my perceptions. When discussants ask wheather I believe that the bible is the word of God, I gave each one a direct answer which is consistent in all my posts. I also do not quote the bible in my writings both in the forum and my spiritual works.

Lol, have you not affirmed what I just said earlier? Abd-Ru-Shin drew from the Bible. If you say "No", you would definitely be contradicting your own assertion. In other words, the Bible is the Word of God from which Abd-Ru-Shin drew from as regards both the Ten Commandments and the Lord's Prayer. There is no other source where you would find the Ten Commandments or the Lord's Prayer other than in the Bible. Period.


I never said that Abdrushin drew from the bible. I said he drew from the Truth, from God. Read again my post. You simply replaced the word Truth from my statement with the word bible. Having done the replacement, you still want me to answer your question. It seems you want an answer that will fit  your conclusion.

Sorry, this excuse will simply not cut it. The Grail Message is not a continuation of the Biblical message - that is why anyone who reads it with a sharp understanding will see that the Grail Message is just Abd-Ru-Shin's (mis)interpretation of the Biblical message.


Once again, your are replacing my words with your own. Why do you do that? I said that the Grail Message is a continuation and completion of the message of Jesus. I did not say that it is a continuation and completion of biblical message. I think that my sentence is clear and where you think it is vague, ask for clarification.

That Abd-Ru-Shin "discusses" the teachings of Jesus Christ is okay, and I have no problem at all with that; afterall, there are so many people discussing the message or teachings of Jesus Christ. What the Grail Message does not do is "continue" the message, as you hinted

If you think that the Grail Message is not a continuation of the message of Jesus Christ, then that is your view and you are entitled to. I know that the Grail Message is a continuation and completion of the message of Jesus Christ.

Lol, m_nwankwo. . . If the teachings of Jesus can be found in the TRUTH, what is that truth? Where? If you're finding it so difficult to simply state that the teachings of Jesus can be found in the BIBLE, I can understand your dilemma. If someone asserts that the teachings of Jesus can be found in XYZ, they want to know what XYZ stands for - it cannot be an abstract notion that nobody can handle and read for themselves. The problem is made easier for us: the "TRUTH" where Jesus' teachings can be found is simply the BIBLE - that's your XYZ - that's the TRUTH. Outside of that Book, you will not find the prophecies that Abd-Ru-Shin referred to in The Star of Bethlehem. If you can source them outside the Bible, please let us know. if not, his so-called "authority" for prophecies are vague.

Truth is God. You can find the teachings of Jesus and the Grail Message in God. You believe that the teachings of Jesus can be found in the bible. I know that the teachings of Jesus Christ can be found in the Grail Message. Kindly post the entire lecture "The star of Bethlehem". Let readers make a judjement on how Abdrushin came about that lecture.

WHAT is this "TRUTH" apart from the Bible?

Truth is God. The will of God is Truth.

What is this "book of life"? You see, this play on words is not helping matters. You cannot reference GOLGOTHA outside the Bible as Abd-Ru-Shin used it. If you could, please serve it gently to us - because vague assertions will simply not do the job. If Mr. Abd-Ru-Shin believes he was giving us the "truth" and yet referring to GOLGOTHA, we should be able to check him out on his references. To shy away from doing so is simply making us candidates of gullibility.

The book of life is the will of God or the laws of God. I do not see why it is impossible to know about the events that happened in Golgotha without reference to the bible. The book of life records all things. The will of God is not physical but a blessed one can spiritually look into the pages of this book of life and render to humanity in earthly language the spiritual inscriptions on the pages of the book of life. All genuine prophecies are made from reading this book of life. If you do not accept that, then I cannot be of much help.

It is queer indeed that you guys would be making these claims behind Abd-Ru-Shin's back and yet still sounding vague. I'm sorry, but I don't see how you have clarified the issues here. Even if those words are recorded in the Bible and yet the argument is that they did not originate from the Bible (any language is okay by me), if they originated from God and are found in the Bible, then what is wrong with admitting that the Bible can be trusted? Please reflect on this issue very carefully - because to come back and disparage any part of that Book will invite very cutting remarks from me about Mr Abd-Ru-Shin's books.

I will not engage in intellectual disputes about the bible. If you have cutting remarks about Abdrushins books, you should feel free to make them. I am not offended by anything and maybe your remarks may be helpful to some. Stay blessed.
Re: Who Is The Son Of God And The Son Of Man To The Grail Message. by pilgrim1(f): 8:09pm On Oct 06, 2008
@justcool,

Just a few comments on yours, sorry for the delay:

justcool:

Dear pilgrim 1
Thanks again.
First of all, ABD-RU-SHIN did not write the Grail Message in English. He wrote it in German. The English version is only a translation which can only render an approximate meaning of the original German version.

You see, the one thing that is happening here is we are still on the same page. I was already aware of the background of the Grail Message in terms of its translations; but I'm sure whoever translated it using KJV diction did not close their eyes and just fathomed the precise quotes we have discussed without opening the Bible to read. That fact cannot be discounted - and it does not appear that anything more tangible has been said to undergird your explanations as totally divorced from any refernce to the Bible.

Cheers.
Re: Who Is The Son Of God And The Son Of Man To The Grail Message. by pilgrim1(f): 8:15pm On Oct 06, 2008
@m_nwankwo,

m_nwankwo:

@Pilgrim,

Thanks for your rebuttals. I have addressed your concerns. Justcool has also given you furhter clarifications. It seems our answers did not satisfy you. There is nothing I can do about that since that is your choice and the way you percieve things. I will try to recast them and maybe it may be clearer.

Thanks for the reposte. Like I noted in mine to justcool, it seems you guys are having such a difficult time validating the idea that there was nothing in the Grail Message that had to do with the Bible. This is just going round in circles; and I have offered that one reference with examples to demonstrate that it was not by coincidence that on would find the connection. This idea of "drawing from the TRUTH" and then finding it difficult to admit that the Bible is by same inference the TRUTH is sadly making a lot of motion without movement.

All the same, many thanks for sharing. Enjoy.
Re: Who Is The Son Of God And The Son Of Man To The Grail Message. by mnwankwo(m): 5:46pm On Oct 08, 2008
pilgrim.1:

@m_nwankwo,

Thanks for the reposte. Like I noted in mine to justcool, it seems you guys are having such a difficult time validating the idea that there was nothing in the Grail Message that had to do with the Bible. This is just going round in circles; and I have offered that one reference with examples to demonstrate that it was not by coincidence that on would find the connection. This idea of "drawing from the TRUTH" and then finding it difficult to admit that the Bible is by same inference the TRUTH is sadly making a lot of motion without movement.

All the same, many thanks for sharing. Enjoy.

Hi again Pilgrim,

I see your point but I do not agree with it. I also do not think we are going round in circles for each of us has made his or her points pretty clear. The discordance from my perpective is that I see the message of Jesus Christ as independent and an authority in itself. Thus his divine statements belongs only to God the father. He who is blessed to draw from God the father can render the exact words of Jesus without recourse to reading or studyng the reports of others about the life and mission of Jesus Christ. My submissions have always been that the Grail Message draws from God the Father. The Grail Message can therefore cite the statements of Jesus Christ since the statements of Jesus Christ is the Truth and issued directly from God the Father. Your argument seems to be that since some of the words that Jesus said are found in the bible, then the Grail Message must have "lifted" the words from the bible. My perception is that the author of the Grail Message know the teachings of Jesus Christ since both messages issued from the same source, that is from God. The author of the Grail Message did not get the knowlege of the teachings of Jesus Christ by studying the bible or any other book but because he draws the Truth from out of God the Father. Stay blessed.
Re: Who Is The Son Of God And The Son Of Man To The Grail Message. by pilgrim1(f): 11:56pm On Oct 08, 2008
Hi there @m_nwankwo,

m_nwankwo:
I see your point but I do not agree with it.

It’s okay, as everyone is entitled to disagree with anyone else.

m_nwankwo:
I also do not think we are going round in circles for each of us has made his or her points pretty clear. The discordance from my perpective is that I see the message of Jesus Christ as independent and an authority in itself. Thus his divine statements belongs only to God the father.

The basic question is this: if Jesus’ divine statements belong only to God the Father, is that message different from what is recorded in the Bible? You see, the difficulty for you guys to simply acknowledge that the Bible is TRUTH is why you will keep making these circular assertions of what belongs to the Father and yet playing round the question of what is recorded in the Bible.

m_nwankwo:
He who is blessed to draw from God the father can render the exact words of Jesus without recourse to reading or studyng the reports of others about the life and mission of Jesus Christ.

Good – then in this case you can toss the books of Abd-Ru-Shin away and seek alone to draw directly from God the Father! If you really believe in your own assertions, please don’t come back and make a case for any ideas of Abd-Ru-Shin, because it would be completely a waste of time to make such imploding statements and yet worry over Abd-Ru-Shin’s books.

m_nwankwo:
My submissions have always been that the Grail Message draws from God the Father. The Grail Message can therefore cite the statements of Jesus Christ since the statements of Jesus Christ is the Truth and issued directly from God the Father.

Which brings us back to the same thing: since “the statements of Jesus Christ is the Truth” which issued directly from God the Father, why is it so difficult for you guys to humbly acknowledge the Bible as that TRUTH where Jesus’ statements are found?!? This is why we keep going round in circles and making so much motion and yet no movement from the same busstop. It is a very simple thing that does not need these circular complications for yourselves. Jesus’ statements are the Truth – but what then is wrong with the Bible where that same Truth is found? You may disagree with the Bible all you can; but so far you are making implosive statements which suffer sudden inward collapse.

m_nwankwo:
Your argument seems to be that since some of the words that Jesus said are found in the bible, then the Grail Message must have "lifted" the words from the bible. My perception is that the author of the Grail Message know the teachings of Jesus Christ since both messages issued from the same source, that is from God. The author of the Grail Message did not get the knowlege of the teachings of Jesus Christ by studying the bible or any other book but because he draws the Truth from out of God the Father. Stay blessed.

This is simply an assertion that is seriously weak and unconvincing. A man who claims to have drawn directly from God the Father without reference from the Bible should not have been referring to the Biblical “prophecies” upon which he based his discussions of ‘The Star of Bethlehem’ and referring to the fulfillment of “the prophecies”. What “Prophecies”, if I may ask? Where do you get to know about “the prophecies” he referred to, if not from the Bible? You may argue that it is not so; but that would leave your ideas hanging in the air, because if asked to produce the “prophecies” that Mr. Abd-Ru-Shin was referring to, you definitely would have nothing to offer. It is up to you to find a more convincing argument for your case than mere assertions which up until now are not having any substance on the ground.

Whatever disagreements anyone may have, my point is cogent enough to point you back to the Bible. One cannot keep making statements that hang in the air about some “prophecies” which no one can read, other than just merely asserting that Mr Shin drew them directly from the father. If you asked Mr. Shin what exactly he drew from the Father as regards those “prophecies”, and you will come back with nothing at all. Why? Because you would only be referring to those “prophecies” without a clue what exactly those prophecies actually state. What then are we to make with mere assumptions and assertions with no concrete reference to read those prophecies directly for ourselves?

Earlier, I stated this :
_____________________________________________
‘I only need the book that Abd-Ru-Shin was referring to
when he mentioned the prophecies
_____________________________________________

. . . but rather than refer me to those prophecies, I got the same refrain over and over again that “Abdrushin drew from the Truth”, and yet we don’t know what “prophecies” he was referring to; nor have you been able to provide any pointers thereto. Having failed to proffer any pointers, it sounds like you just hoped that we would take your assertions for granted and there - end of the story!

Anyhow, enjoy. wink
Re: Who Is The Son Of God And The Son Of Man To The Grail Message. by PastorAIO: 11:28am On Oct 09, 2008
May I suggest that Truth cannot be considered to be any text nor can it be considered to be contained in any text. Truth is the essential nature of God. God is Truth. A text can speak of Truth or can refer to Truth with varying degrees of success (depending on the writer's ability to articulate himself and also on the reader's ability to discern and understand), but it cannot ever be considered the truth in and of itself.

I do not believe that Abd-ru-shin a German living in the 20th and 19th century would have been unfamiliar with the bible. Neither can he have been unaware that what he was writing had parallels in the bible, even if he claims that his source is not the bible. However, as I worry about christians who venerate the bible almost to the point of bowing down and worshipping it, I worry about this Grail message the makes such a claim to be the TRUTH.

Of particular note is the rote manner in which it's followers state: "I have examined the Grail message and found it to be the Truth". or such like.
Why the use of exactly the same terminology by each and everyone? Why doesn't there seem to be any diversity of opinion and perspective or even style of expression? Why don't some people say, "I've read it thoroughly and it answers a lot of my questions though there are some other parts that I don't fully understand but I hope to understand as I progress in the faith".

Also if the Grail message is sourced from the Truth then why bother with the Grail message when we can all go directly to the Truth ourselves.

What is it exactly about the Grail message that merits it being called the truth whereas the bible is not the truth?

I don't believe for an instance that baloney that was said on another thread about Abdrushin incarnating amongst the German people because they were the most spiritually advanced humans to receive his message. Whoever said that doesn't know German people. Don't forget where two world wars came from not to mention the worst kind of nationalism (nazi) plus a generally cold and unsentimental temperament that values might and power above all else. In fact I think that statement is so typical of a german with the notion of racial superiority etc. God can talk to anybody anywhere and race doesn't have anything to do with it.

Please I'm still curious to hear the answer to pilgrim1's question. What prophecies was Abdrushin referring to?

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Re: Who Is The Son Of God And The Son Of Man To The Grail Message. by mnwankwo(m): 5:22pm On Oct 09, 2008
Hi Pilgrim

The basic question is this: if Jesus’ divine statements belong only to God the Father, is that message different from what is recorded in the Bible? You see, the difficulty for you guys to simply acknowledge that the Bible is TRUTH is why you will keep making these circular assertions of what belongs to the Father and yet playing round the question of what is recorded in the Bible.


The message of Jesus Christ in my perception is different from the bible. Ofcourse some of the statements of Jesus can be found in the bible while others are not there. That is why I do not equate the bible with the message of Jesus or the Truth. You are entitled to consider my separation of the bible from Jesus Christ as "circular assertions".

Good – then in this case you can toss the books of Abd-Ru-Shin away and seek alone to draw directly from God the Father! If you really believe in your own assertions, please don’t come back and make a case for any ideas of Abd-Ru-Shin, because it would be completely a waste of time to make such imploding statements and yet worry over Abd-Ru-Shin’s books

I cannot draw directly from God the father. To draw from God the Father in my sensing is not possible for creatures and I am a creature of God. He who draws from God the Father carries the Truth within himself. My believe is that Jesus and the author of the Grail Message has the Truth within themselves. Creatures to which I belong to does not carry the Truth but rather are images or reflections of the Truth. An image of the Truth is however not the Truth. The Grail Message and the message of Jesus Christ has already done the drawing. All that I am doing is to follow the teachings of these truth bringers: Jesus Christ and Abdrushin.

Which brings us back to the same thing: since “the statements of Jesus Christ is the Truth” which issued directly from God the Father, why is it so difficult for you guys to humbly acknowledge the Bible as that TRUTH where Jesus’ statements are found?!? This is why we keep going round in circles and making so much motion and yet no movement from the same busstop. It is a very simple thing that does not need these circular complications for yourselves. Jesus’ statements are the Truth – but what then is wrong with the Bible where that same Truth is found? You may disagree with the Bible all you can; but so far you are making implosive statements which suffer sudden inward collapse

I do not believe that the bible is the Truth. That means that their are some statements in the bible which in my perception are in accord with the Truth and some which are not. Thus for me to accept any teaching as the Truth or the word of God, I must percieve every word in that message as the Truth. If even one sentence cannot harmonise with what my spirit knows to be the Truth, then I will not acknowledge that message as the truth. That is why I do not accept the bible as the truth even though a lot of grains of Truth can be found in the bible. A human being should only accept what he or her spirit senses to be the Truth and nothing else. Besides I have no interest in marshaling out points on why the bible in my perception is not the Truth. My work is to explain to those who want to know  why I believe that the Grail Message is the Truth.

This is simply an assertion that is seriously weak and unconvincing. A man who claims to have drawn directly from God the Father without reference from the Bible should not have been referring to the Biblical “prophecies” upon which he based his discussions of ‘The Star of Bethlehem’ and referring to the fulfillment of “the prophecies”. What “Prophecies”, if I may ask? Where do you get to know about “the prophecies” he referred to, if not from the Bible? You may argue that it is not so; but that would leave your ideas hanging in the air, because if asked to produce the “prophecies” that Mr. Abd-Ru-Shin was referring to, you definitely would have nothing to offer. It is up to you to find a more convincing argument for your case than mere assertions which up until now are not having any substance on the ground.


The argument is "weak" in your own opinion, not mine. Besides it was not meant to convince you. The prophecies about the son of God belong to God. The authors of the bible only recorded the prophecies. And that is a wonderful thing.  They are not the source of the prophecies. God is the source of the prophecies. Why is it then impossible to see that one who had access to the source of these prophecies can know of the prophecies. I will quote a statement of Abdrushin from the lecture "The Star of Bethlehem"

"Disquietude drove Mary away from Nazareth, and Joseph, seeing her silent suffering and longing, granted her wish solely to make her happy. He handed over the management of his carpenter's shop to his oldest employee, and with Mary and the Child journeyed to a distant country. In the course of their everyday life of work and cares, the memory of the Radiant Star slowly faded from their minds, especially as in His early years Jesus displayed nothing extraordinary, but like all children was quite natural.

It was only on his deathbed, after returning to his native town, that Joseph, who had always been the best of fatherly friends to Jesus, saw in his passing, during his last moments on earth, the Cross and the Dove above Jesus, Who stood alone at his bedside. Deeply stirring were his last words: "So Thou are He after all!" Jesus Himself knew nothing of this until something urged Him to go to John, of whom He had heard that he was proclaiming wise teachings and baptising at the River Jordan.

With this gross material act of baptism, the beginning of the Mission was firmly anchored in the World of Gross Matter. The bandage fell. From this moment Jesus Himself was conscious that He was to carry the Word of the Father among mankind on earth.

His whole life as it really was will unfold itself before you, divested of all the fantasies invented by human brains! With the closing of the cycle of this event, it will be revealed to all during the Judgment through the victory of the Truth, which for a long time to come may no longer be obscured!

Mary fought an inward battle with her doubts, which were strengthened through motherly anxiety for her son, right up to the grievous walk to Golgotha. Purely human and not supernatural. Only there did recognition of His Mission, and with it belief, finally come to her.

But now, at the return of the Star, all errors shall henceforth be redeemed through the Grace of God; and likewise all the faults of those who, without obstinacy or evil intent, rendered Christ's way more difficult at that time; and who now at the closing of the cycle come to recognition, and try to make good their neglect or failures.

Through their desire to make good, redemption arises for them with the Radiant Star; liberated, they can give jubilant thanks to Him Who in His Wisdom and Goodness created the Laws by which all creatures must judge and also redeem themselves".

Did Abdrushin lift the above from the bible?

Whatever disagreements anyone may have, my point is cogent enough to point you back to the Bible. One cannot keep making statements that hang in the air about some “prophecies” which no one can read, other than just merely asserting that Mr Shin drew them directly from the father. If you asked Mr. Shin what exactly he drew from the Father as regards those “prophecies”, and you will come back with nothing at all. Why? Because you would only be referring to those “prophecies” without a clue what exactly those prophecies actually state. What then are we to make with mere assumptions and assertions with no concrete reference to read those prophecies directly for ourselves?


The author of the Grail Message is Abdrushin, not Mr. Shin. Just some quotes from the Grail Message as regards to what Abdrushin drew from God the Father.

From the lecture "The Stranger"

"[b]Once more Darkness had settled over the earth. Triumphantly it overshadowed men, and barred their way to the Primordial Spiritual Realm. The Light of God had withdrawn from them. The body that had served It as an earthly vessel hung bleeding and mutilated on the Cross, as a victim of the protest of those to whom It wished to bring happiness and holy peace.

At the summit of the entire Creation, in the radiant vicinity of God, stands the Grail Castle as the Temple of Light. Deep grief prevailed there over the erring human spirits far below who, blindly imagining that they knew everything better, closed themselves in hostility to the Truth, and allowed themselves to be driven so far by the hate-filled Darkness as to commit this crime against the Son of God. The curse thus created by mankind fell heavily on the whole world, pressing them into an even greater limitation of understanding.

Gravely perplexed, a youth beheld this monstrous happening from the Castle of the Grail,  the future Son of Man. He was then already being prepared for His Mission, a process which took thousands of years; for He was to descend well-equipped into those lower regions where, through the volition of mankind, Darkness reigned.

A woman's hand was gently laid on the shoulder of the dreaming one. The Queen of Womanhood stood beside Him, and spoke in a sad and loving voice:

"Let this event impress itself upon you, dear son. Such is the battlefield through which you will have to pass in the hour of fulfilment; for at the request of the murdered Saviour God the Father grants that before the Judgment you shall once more proclaim His Word to the faithless, in order to save those who are still willing to listen to It!"

The youth bowed His head in silence and sent up a fervent prayer for strength, for such great Divine Love re-echoed mightily within Him!

The tidings of the last, of another possibility of Grace spread rapidly through all the spheres, and many souls besought God to grant that they might be permitted to help in the great work of the redemption of all those who still wish to find the way to God. The Love of God the Father granted this to many a soul, who was thereby helped in its ascent. In grateful joy the host of these so blessed ones jubilantly gave a solemn pledge of loyalty to fulfil the opportunity of serving that was granted them. [/b]
Thus those Called ones were trained, who were later to hold themselves at the disposal of the Envoy of God when His hour of fulfilment on earth came. They were carefully developed for these tasks and incarnated on earth at the right time, so that they might be ready whenever the Call reached them, and their first fulfilment of duty remained to listen for this Call!

Meanwhile the legacy of the murdered Son of God, His Living Word, was exploited on earth solely for selfish purposes. Mankind had no conception of the true Principles of Christ. On the contrary, they gradually grew into such a wrong and purely earthly doctrine of love that finally they rejected anything else as not coming from God, and they still today reject and revile whatever does not conform to this nauseating sentimentality desired by them, and what does not practise a similar and very unwholesome servile worship of mankind.

Everything that does not have as its foundation the acknowledgment of the supremacy of man is simply labelled as false, and not belonging to the Word of God. This behaviour, however, actually only conceals the uneasy apprehension that the long-felt hollowness of the false edifice might become apparent.

This is what had been made of the sacred legacy of the Son of God! On such degrading assumptions His clear words were interpreted and passed on in all too human a way. Adherents were solicited through courting human frailties, until some earthly power could be developed, which has always remained the ultimate goal. Then, however, by their brutal cruelties they very soon showed how far the bearers of the misconstrued Christ-Principle were from the real understanding of it, and how little they lived it.

Continually and ever more clearly there was proof that the very ones who wished to be the bearers of the Christ-Principle were shamelessly and unpardonably the worst enemies and greatest offenders against the true Christ-Principle! After Christ's life on earth the whole of history, from the beginning of the churches, sets forth these facts so clearly, in letters so indelibly engraved and branded, that they can never be denied or glossed over. The stigma of conscious hypocrisy was undisguisably established throughout the long history of individual and mass murders under unpardonable invocations of God, and even today this is being extended in many places, but in different forms adapted to the present time.

Thus, thanks to the willingness of all the human spirits, the Darkness became ever denser as the time approached when the Son of Man had to be incarnated upon earth.

Joyful activity in the elements heralded the earthly birth. Angels lovingly accompanied Him down to this earth. Primordial Beings formed a solid rampart around Him and around His earthly childhood. His earthly youth was allowed to be bright and sunny. In the evenings He saw the Comet, radiant above Him, like a greeting from God the Father; He regarded it as nothing unusual, as one of the other stars, until the bandage which He had to wear during His bitter training on earth was put before His eyes".

From the lecture "The Great Comet"

"For years now "knowing ones" have been speaking of the coming of this especially significant Star. The number of those who await it is continually increasing, and the indications become more and more definite, so much so that in fact it is to be expected soon. But what it really signifies, what it brings, whence it comes, has not yet been rightly explained.

It is thought that it brings upheavals of an incisive nature. But this Star portends more.

It can be called the Star of Bethlehem, because it is of exactly the same nature as that was. Its power sucks the waters up high, brings weather catastrophes and still more. When encircled by its rays the earth quakes.

[b]Since the event in Bethlehem there has been nothing like it. Like the Star of Bethlehem, this Star has also detached itself from the Eternal Realm of Primordial Spirit at such a time as to take effect on this earth exactly when the years of spiritual enlightenment are to come to all mankind.

The Star takes its course in a straight line from the Eternal Realm to this part of the Universe. Its core is filled with high spiritual power; it envelops itself in material substance, and will thereby also become visible to men on earth. Unerringly and unswervingly the Comet pursues its course, and will appear on the scene at the right hour, as already ordained thousands of years ago.

The first direct effects have already begun in recent years. For anyone who wishes neither to see nor to hear this, and who does not perceive how ridiculous it is still to maintain that all the extraordinary things which have already happened are of everyday occurrence, there is naturally no help. He either wishes to act like an ostrich out of fear, or he is burdened with an extremely limited understanding. Both types must be allowed to go serenely on their way; one can only smile at their easily refutable assertions.

But the knowing ones could also be told where the first powerful rays are striking. However, since the rays are gradually also encompassing the whole earth, there is no use in being more explicit, It will take years to come to this point, and years before the Comet again releases the earth from its influence. And then the earth is purified and refreshed in every respect for the blessing and joy of its inhabitants. It will be more beautiful than it has ever been. Therefore every believer shall look forward to the future with tranquil confidence, and not be alarmed at anything that may happen in the coming years. If he can look up with confidence to God no harm will come to him[/b].

In the lecture "Life",

 
"The  existence of God, of Power, of Light, i. e., of Life, alone inevitably brings into being the Creations, for the Living Light, the Living Power, can­not but radiate! And these radiations contain all that is necessary for Creation!

The radiations, however, are not the Light Itself!

Hence all that exists outside of God has its origin only in the radiation of God. This radiation is a natural effect of the Light, however, an effect that has always existed from all eternity.

The strength of the radiation is naturally greatest in the proximity of the Light, so much so that there can be no other movement in it than the 'per­fectly straight line' movement, which is an intrinsic quality of the radiation. Thus it issues from God and proceeds for fabulous distances, the extent of which a human spirit is unable to imagine!

When, however, this inflexible forward propulsion, which is equivalent to an immense and constant pressure, comes to the point where it at last eases off a little, the nature of the movement changes from the hitherto straight line to a circular movement. This circular movement is produced by the attraction of the Living Power simultaneously pulling back all that has been flung beyond the border of the full radiation to that point where only the straight line movement predominates. In this process the rotating movements take on an elliptical form, because they are not independent movements, but only pro­duced by this flinging-out-of-the-mainstream and the subsequent pulling back through the attraction which rests in the Power, that is, in God Himself!

Moreover the process of dividing the radiation into positive and negative species, which takes place after the radiation leaves the Sphere of Divine White-Heat, also plays a part here!

In these rotating movements, in which the immense pressure of the original radiation has diminished, a slight cooling off also takes place in the course of nature. This in turn causes a certain deposit to be precipitated.

This deposit sinks deeper or recedes further away from the original strong­est radiation, but is still held by the all-pervading attraction of the Power. Yet it simultaneously retains enough of the straight line impetus of the radia­tion to again produce new rotating movements, which always remain within very definite but quite different limits. Thus one deposit after another is pre­cipitated and corresponding elliptically rotating planes of motion form, which bring accumulations of substance and finally ever more solid forms, receding further and further away from the Original Radiation and its enor­mous forward pressure!

The gradations thus produced form planes in which definite species link together and settle, conforming to the degree their temperature has cooled off. I have already described these planes or species in my Message as being the great fundamental planes of Spiritual Substantiality in the uppermost re­gion of Creation, under which successively range the Spheres of Animistic Substantiality, of Ethereal Substance, and finally of Gross Matter, with their many sub-divisions. It is quite natural that the more perfect species should remain higher, thus closest to the Point of Origin, because they most nearly resemble It and are most strongly affected by the attraction of the Living Power!

As I have already said this radiation of the Light working in such an incom­prehensible way has always existed from all eternity!

But God did not allow this radiation to penetrate further and act beyond the limits at which the forward drive of the stream still forms an absolutely straight line, so that the pure Divine Radiation still remained luminous and clear without any cooling off and consequent precipitations. This formed the Divine Sphere which, as with God Himself, is eternal! In this clear transpar­ency there could never be any dimming, nor can there be any swerving aside or change. Only perfect harmony with the Source, with the Light Itself, was possible. And this Sphere is inseparably connected with God, because this radiation of the Living Power, being its natural effect, can never be avoided!

To this Divine Sphere, which because of its close proximity to the Living Power is subjected to a pressure incomprehensible to the human spirit, be­longs the actual Castle of the Grail as the most extreme outpost and anchor­age, as a terminating counter-pole, so to speak! This still stands within the Circle of Divinity and has therefore existed from all eternity and will remain unchanged for all eternity, even if in times to come Creation would have to fall to ruin!

Thus it was from all eternity! It is something the human spirit is unable to comprehend!

It was not till God, in His Volition, sent forth the great words: 'Let there be Light!' that the rays shot out over the limit hitherto set them into the Uni­verse, then in utter darkness, carrying movement and warmth! This was the beginning of Creation, which gave birth to the human spirit and could be­come his home!

God, Who is Light, does not need this Creation! Should He again limit His Radiation to its unavoidable minimum, so that only a Sphere of Divine Purity would remain into which no dimness can ever enter, as it was in the begin­ning, then the end of all that has been subsequently created would be at hand! Man would then also cease to exist, as he can be conscious only within Crea­tion!

The immediate radiation of the Light can produce only what is perfect. In the changes from this first pressure, caused by the ever-increasing distances, however, this original perfection diminishes because, in the progressive cool­ing off, individual particles constantly separate themselves and remain be­hind. Purity in perfection necessitates the pressure of Divine Radiation at its greatest intensity, which is possible only in the proximity of God. The pres­sure creates motion which in turn produces warmth, heat and white heat.

Pressure, however, is but the resultant effect of the power, and not the pow­er itself, just as the radiations come into existence only under the pressure of the power, but they are not the power itself! Therefore the radiations within Creation are but the consequence of a corresponding motion, which in turn must adjust itself to the particular pressure at the time! Thus where there are no radiations in Creation there is also no motion or, as man erroneously calls it, no 'life'! For all motion radiates, while stagnation is nothingness, an ab­sence of motion which men call 'death!'"

"When the radiation first shot over the boundary-line of the Divine Sphere, i. e., at the beginning of Creation, a new section was added to the eternal Castle of the Grail situated at the most remote border of the Divine Sphere. This section protruded towards the further side, towards the most spiritual part of Creation, so that the Primordial Beings on their side can also visit this new section of the Castle in the Spiritual World, at least as far as the limit set by their species permits!

One step beyond this border, i. e., into the Divine Sphere, would mean immediate unconsciousness, for they would be consumed in white-heat, if ,  they were able to take such a step! But this is impossible, because the much greater pressure of the Divine Sphere, to which they are not accustomed, would simply fling them back or, in other words, would prevent them from entering. In an absolutely natural manner it bars their entrance without the necessity of any further action!

The position is similar as between the developed human spirits and the Primordial Beings in the plane in which they live!

Thus the Castle of the Grail with its spiritual extension today constitutes the intermediary point between the Divine and Creation! Through the Castle all the radiation necessary for Creation must flow, and the Son of Man as King of the Grail and as the only Mediator is, owing to the nature of His Origin (which combines Divinity with Spirituality), able to cross the border into the Divine Sphere from Creation! For this reason the mystery of this union had to be brought about!

It is only far below this Castle of the Grail and the Sphere of the Primordial Beings that Paradise lies! It is the highest and most beautiful sphere for those human spirits who have fully matured in the Divine Will through obeying the Laws of His Radiations!
To avoid enlarging the picture of these happenings too far I will not enter into details here. I shall be publishing books on these matters so that earthly scientists can study the individual processes, such as the development within the various spheres, their relationship to one another, etc. Nothing must be passed over lest there be a gap, which would immediately call a halt to human knowledge!

Thus when the spirit of an earthman in all its maturity returns from its long wandering and arrives at the boundary ordained for its species, i. e., to the point where it encounters stronger pressure, it cannot increase its own lum­inosity beyond what its own full maturity has already brought about! The higher pressure of a much greater power would disintegrate and consume its particular species. In the greater degree of heat to which it was exposed its ego would be lost. It could then no longer exist as a human spirit, for in merg­ing with the White Light it would be dissolved, while in the region of the Primordial Beings it would become unconscious through the higher pressure prevailing there!

[b]The White-Light, i. e., the Radiation of God, in which only what is Divine can exist consciously, thus carries within itself all the fundamental compon­ents of Creation which, in the gradual process of cooling off, deposit them­selves in a downward direction, manifesting in forms through motion, and as such uniting themselves with each other. But they no longer merge with each other, because the pressure needed for this is lacking. With every degree that the temperature decreases a definite precipitation forms and remains behind. First the Divine, later the Spiritual and then the Animistic, until finally only Ethereal Substance and Gross Matter sink still further!
Thus Creation is actually the deposit formed through the increasing cooling off of the White Light, of the Radiation of the Living Light! The spirit­ual, as also the animistic, can only form and become conscious at a very def­inite degree in the process of cooling off, which is equivalent to the decrease in pressure of God's Radiation." [/b] (Abd-ru-shin, "IN THE LIGHT OF TRUTH: THE GRAIL MESSAGE", chapter "Life"wink

Earlier, I stated this :
            _____________________________________________
             ‘I only need the book that Abd-Ru-Shin was referring to
              when he mentioned the prophecies’
            _____________________________________________

. . . but rather than refer me to those prophecies, I got the same refrain over and over again that “Abdrushin drew from the Truth”, and yet we don’t know what “prophecies” he was referring to; nor have you been able to provide any pointers thereto. Having failed to proffer any pointers, it sounds like you just hoped that we would take your assertions for granted and there - end of the story!


I refered you to books which you dismissed on the account that they are Grail publications. I also refered you to a non Grail publication by Tom Kay "When the comet runs". The dispute is not what the prophecies refer to. The dispute is where he got the knowlege of the prophecies. My submission is that he carries knowledge of the the prophecies in himself and does not need to read or study any book for that matter. Apart from the prophecies aboult the son of God, their are prophecies on the son of Man, the millenium, the world judjement, the world teacher, the Grail, Lucifer etc in the Grail Message.

Stay blessed.
Re: Who Is The Son Of God And The Son Of Man To The Grail Message. by pilgrim1(f): 5:32pm On Oct 09, 2008
@m_nwankwo,

m_nwankwo:

The message of Jesus Christ in my perception is different from the bible.

Lol, that is all there is to this discussion - I already knew that it is difficult for adherents of the Grail Message to see the message of the Bible; so it does not come as a surprise to distance themselves from it while making recourse to what is undeniably Biblical.

I read through your arguments, but I don't see how you addressed the points I raised. Consequently, let me not put you to further tedium. Do have a wonderful evening. wink
Re: Who Is The Son Of God And The Son Of Man To The Grail Message. by mnwankwo(m): 6:32pm On Oct 09, 2008
Hi Pastor,

I will attempt to address your submission as follows:

May I suggest that Truth cannot be considered to be any text nor can it be considered to be contained in any text.  Truth is the essential nature of God.  God is Truth.  A text can speak of Truth or can refer to Truth with varying degrees of success (depending on the writer's ability to articulate himself and also on the reader's ability to discern and understand), but it cannot ever be considered the truth in and of itself.


God is Truth and I agree with that. Besides I have made the same statement in several of my postings. Besides it also gladens my heart that you can perieve that Truth is the essential nature of God. If God want to tell his creatures about his nature, God cloths this his nature, his word in a form. On earth, the human word is the form that is used to give form or expression to the word of God. The human word is only a form to mediate the Truth. Thus the text of the Grail Message is the Truth clothed in human words. In other planes of existence right into the divine, the Grail Message also takes a form corresponding to consistency of that plane. One who uses his or her spiritual faculties can counciously peal off the cloth and be able to percieve the kernel ot the Truth which the cloth covers.

I do not believe that Abd-ru-shin a German living in the 20th and 19th century would have been unfamiliar with the bible.  Neither can he have been unaware that what he was writing had parallels in the bible, even if he claims that his source is not the bible.  However, as I worry about christians who venerate the bible almost to the point of bowing down and worshipping it, I worry about this Grail message the makes such a claim to be the TRUTH.  


The contention is not wheather or not Abdrushin is unfamiliar with the bible but the source of his knowlege. I said that he carries the source within himself. Abdrushin has not studied, nor is he a scholar or issue from any mankind schools of thought. If some of his teachings are found in other works he did not draw from those works, rather it is that those contain the truth and whatever is the truth in a spiritual context will be found in the Grail Message. Similar accusations by Pilgrim is made by budhists, theosophists, antroposophists, bahai adherents, etc about the Grail Message. In each case it is that these teachings has some grains of Truth and this Truth is contant across board. You sow yam and reap yam and that happens irrespective of who does the sowing. Abdrushin sums up why he wrote the Grail Message as follows

"In order to convey to mankind such knowledge, which gives them a clear and intelligible conviction of the working of God in His Justice and Love, I have written the work "In the Light of Truth", which leaves no gap, contains the answer to every question, and clearly shows to mankind how wonderful are the ways in Creation that are upheld by many servants of His Will.

But God alone is Holy
!" (From the lecture "Cult"wink

Of particular note is the rote manner in which it's followers state:  "I have examined the Grail message and found it to be the Truth".  or such like.  
Why the use of exactly the same terminology by each and everyone?  Why doesn't there seem to be any diversity of opinion and perspective or even style of expression?   Why don't some people say, "I've read it thoroughly and it answers a lot of my questions though there are some other parts that I don't fully understand but I hope to understand as I progress in the faith".  


I cannot answer for other adherents of the Grail Message. I can however answer for myself. It is over two decades that I was spiritually lead to the Grail Message and it has given me the absolute conviction in God and his omnipotence. I do not have questions anymore and my journey to heaven is clearer to me than eating or drinking. The Grail Message has opened the faculties of my spirit that allowed me to know things and personally experience working of the laws of God both in this life and the next life. That is why I speak with conviction. I try to remian objective and that is why I do not go into personal things. However if anyone has the ability to journey with me in spirit, then we can explore the truth of the Grail Message devoid of the limitation of the human words and expressions.

Also if the Grail message is sourced from the Truth then why bother with the Grail message when we can all go directly to the Truth ourselves.  



Truth is God and only he who is a son of God can bring the Truth. Such people are called Truth bringers. For me Abdrushin and Jesus Christ are the Truth bringers. Prophets of God in my view are not Truth bringers perse but forerunners for the Truth bringer, that is, they prepare the way for the Truth bringers.

What is it exactly about the Grail message that merits it being called the truth whereas the bible is not the truth?  

Everyting in the Grail Message convinces me that it is a proclamation of the eternal Truth. There are criteria with whic the spirit access the Truth and I can mention them if you are interested. I am not interested in pointing out why I sense the bible as not the Truth. Each individual should find that out for himself. Besides there are people who today consider the bible as the Truth and such are entitled to that belief.

I don't believe for an instance that baloney that was said on another thread about Abdrushin incarnating amongst the German people because they were the most spiritually advanced humans to receive his message.  Whoever said that doesn't know German people.  Don't forget where two world wars came from not to mention the worst kind of nationalism (nazi) plus a generally cold and unsentimental temperament that values might and power above all else.  In fact I think that statement is so typical of a german with the notion of racial superiority etc.  God can talk to anybody anywhere and race doesn't have anything to do with it.

That you did not agree with some ones statement does not make the statement "baloney". All the same there is a reason why Jesus incarnated among the Jews and why Abdrushin incarnated among the Germans. Hopefully we will discuss it someday. But be rest assured that it has nothing to do with race. I believe in reincarnation and I know some germans today were jews and vice versa, some apostles of Jesus are currently working the earth completely oblivious of their life as an apostle of the son of God. Race, nationality, religion etc has no meaning in the site of God. Many today who are attacking christianity or Islam or Budhism are attacking the very thing they one established in a former earth life. Knowledge of the spiritual history of oneself and that of his fellow men will clear a lot of apparent puzzles and make many a conflict ridiculous.

Please I'm still curious to hear the answer to pilgrim1's question.  What prophecies was Abdrushin referring to?

See my penultimate reply to pilgrim. As alway it is a joy sharing with you. Stay blessed!

[quote][/quote]
Re: Who Is The Son Of God And The Son Of Man To The Grail Message. by mnwankwo(m): 6:38pm On Oct 09, 2008
pilgrim.1:

@m_nwankwo,

Lol, that is all there is to this discussion - I already knew that it is difficult for adherents of the Grail Message to see the message of the Bible; so it does not come as a surprise to distance themselves from it while making recourse to what is undeniably Biblical.

I read through your arguments, but I don't see how you addressed the points I raised. Consequently, let me not put you to further tedium. Do have a wonderful evening. wink

Hi Pilgrim. I wish you a wonderful evening too. Stay blessed!
Re: Who Is The Son Of God And The Son Of Man To The Grail Message. by justcool(m): 4:26am On Oct 10, 2008
@ Pastor AIO

Pastor AIO:

I don't believe for an instance that baloney that was said on another thread about Abdrushin incarnating amongst the German people because they were the most spiritually advanced humans to receive his message. Whoever said that doesn't know German people. Don't forget where two world wars came from not to mention the worst kind of nationalism (nazi) plus a generally cold and unsentimental temperament that values might and power above all else. In fact I think that statement is so typical of a german with the notion of racial superiority etc. God can talk to anybody anywhere and race doesn't have anything to do with it.


I believe that in the above post of yours you were referring to the statement that I made on the following thread: thread.https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=147092.msg2666749#msg2666749

Well this is what I said:
"His incarnations was not compelled by any karma. In His case, as in the case of many prophets, He was sent by God for the benefit of the erring mankind. He incarnates among the people who are spiritually developed enough to receive him. And in an environment that will allow Him to fulfill His task."

And I stand by what I said! Your assetion that the Germans are bad is completely false, biased, and based on ignorance. Also your description of their temperance is totally false.

You mentioned the two world wars and Nazism, and try to use them to justify your assertion on Germans. There is no need clarifying further for you. Those things that you mentioned actually shows the correctness of my explanation. But I know that you cannot see it, neither will I throw light any light on it for you, since your apt to call my post baloney.
Re: Who Is The Son Of God And The Son Of Man To The Grail Message. by seeklove: 4:47am On Oct 10, 2008
@Pastor AIO
Germans are not that bad. My sister lived in Germany for more than ten years, she still thinks that Germans are the nicest poeple she ever met. She had a legitimate Job there, and she says that the poeple were so good to her and her family to the extent that when she was migrating to America, all her neigbors in Germany were crying like babies. So many Nigerians in Germany are into illigal things, which the Germans and their Government frown upon, this makes Nigerians say that they are bad.
Hitler decieved Germans. He is not a hero in Germany today. His party, Nazi is also very unpopuler. So many Germans, even during the world war, knew that the war was unjust, but some of them were just fighting out of petrotisim. Just as so many Americans think that the war in Iraq is wrong yet they fight out of petrotisim for America.
Hitler, Nazi and the world war was just one apple. don't use one event to qualify a whole poeple who have exsisted for a very long time.  Remenber that Hitler was a dictator. Racisim and racial superiority was introduced to Germans by the nazi party. I dont want to mention where Hitler leant that from. But research into it. Infact Hitler actually is not a full blooded German. Hitler has a Jewish background and some Historians say that he was actualy Austrian. He used the German poeple who were very gulible. Please research further into the issue.
Will you say that Americans are bad becuase of the iraqi war or becuase of bush?
If those things that you mentioned are the only bad things in history for a country as old as Germany(even older than America), then they are not bad at all.
Even the jews who are God's Chosen pople had some bad apples, like King Herod. But this doest not justify calling the jews a bad poeple. PLEESSSE!!!!

@justcool
Although I disagree with Pastor AIO but I do not see how the atrocities that he mentioned showed the correctness of your explanation. Please explain.

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