5minsmadness ..
Your answers aint helping to convince my points.
I also realize some erroneous points about your view of sin..
I believe that once a person become a believer(during his first confession) he not only receives the forgiveness of sin, he also receieves the righteousness of Jesus..
Its this righteousness that makes the person worthy before God and acceptable to Him.
This righteousness is a gift Rom5:17-19 and it is received by faith alone Rom4:5.

When a person becomes a believer the sacrifice of Jesus perfects him and make him holy once for all Heb10:10,14 i.e he's holy forever..

When a person becomes a believer he no longer sins because its no longer his works that's being manifested before God but the righteousness of Jesus.

A believer is no longer a slave to sin Rom6:14 because Christ has end the source of sin Rom10:4 which is the Law 1Cor15:56 And "where there is no law there is no sin." Rom4:15

Therefore its not necessary 4 a believer 2 keep asking 4 d 4giveness of sins Bcoz. of ROM 8:1

Pr0ton: 5minsmadness ..
Your answers aint helping to convince my points.
I also realize some erroneous points about your view of sin..
I believe that once a person become a believer(during his first confession) he not only receives the forgiveness of sin, he also receieves the righteousness of Jesus..
Its this righteousness that makes the person worthy before God and acceptable to Him.
This righteousness is a gift Rom5:17-19 and it is received by faith alone Rom4:5.

When a person becomes a believer the sacrifice of Jesus perfects him and make him holy once for all Heb10:10,14 i.e he's holy forever..

When a person becomes a believer he no longer sins because its no longer his works that's being manifested before God but the righteousness of Jesus.

A believer is no longer a slave to sin Rom6:14 because Christ has end the source of sin Rom10:4 which is the Law 1Cor15:56 And "where there is no law there is no sin." Rom4:15

Therefore its not necessary 4 a believer 2 keep asking 4 d 4giveness of sins Bcoz. of ROM 8:1

Hehehe interesting!

Pr0ton: 5minsmadness ..
Your answers aint helping to convince my points.

That's because you are not interested in being convinced. Not really. You are just trying to battle out your points.

I also realize some erroneous points about your view of sin..
I[b] believe[/b] that once a person become a believer(during his first confession) he not only receives the forgiveness of sin, he also receieves the righteousness of Jesus..
Its this righteousness that makes the person worthy before God and acceptable to Him.
This righteousness is a gift Rom5:17-19 and it is received by faith alone Rom4:5.

When a person becomes a believer the sacrifice of Jesus perfects him and make him holy once for all Heb10:10,14 i.e he's holy forever..

[b]When a person becomes a believer he no longer sins [/b]because its no longer his works that's being manifested before God but the righteousness of Jesus.

A believer is no longer a slave to sin Rom6:14 because Christ has end the source of sin Rom10:4 which is the Law 1Cor15:56 And "where there is no law there is no sin." Rom4:15
[b]
Therefore its not necessary 4 a believer 2 keep asking 4 d 4giveness of sins [/b]Bcoz. of ROM 8:1

Your belief is wrong.


If your belief was right then all those who say "Lord, Lord,..." will enter into the kingdom of God.

The person who hears the word of God, follows it, and then turns around won't have to worry about receiving a worse judgment.

The christian that became born again yesterday now has freedom to fornicate and adulterate and commit all sorts of atrocities because after all, it is the righteousness of Jesus that lives in him, etc etc. No wonder we have so many Christians and churches in Nigeria and yet their impact cannot be felt. They still collect bribes and steal and cheat etc after all, they have the righteousness of Jesus. I weep for them on the last day.

This your belief in 'once forgiven' is actually an erroneous teaching that rose up years ago and was rebuked before it reared its ugly head again in the late 19th century. It has a name but I cannot remember it now. Perhaps francistony or some other bible scholar can give us the name. Its a false teaching.

Trouble in the kingdom of god.
Who's right and who's wrong?

@5minsmadness, you mean heresy?

FrancisTony: @5minsmadness, you mean heresy?

Lol what kind of heresy is that. Maybe something like "once saved always saved"

SalC: Lol what kind of heresy is that. Maybe something like "once saved always saved"

Or Sola biblica

FrancisTony:

Or Sola biblica

Aww that name eh

@pr0ton: these are some of the scriptures that refute the erring belief of 'once saved:

Heb. 6:4-6 –”It is impossible for those who have… shared in the Holy Spirit… if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance…”  One can’t share in the Holy Spirit, if one doesn’t have Him.  This speaks of those who have Him, then fall away.

**2 Peter 3:17 –”Be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position.”  It’s secure only as one remains in Christ –obedient to the truth, shunning error and lawlessness (sin).

**1 Tim. 4:16 –”Watch your life and doctrine closely.  Persevere in them, because IF you do, you will save both yourself and your hearers.”  If you don’t, you will not save yourself and your hearers.

Now let’s look at some verses concerning sin in the life of a believer:  (I do not necessarily equate the word “believer” with a person who “overcomes and thus inherits eternal life”; because remember, “even the demons believe…”)

*2 Tim. 2:19 –”Everyone who confesses the name of the Lord must turn away from wickedness.”  Is not all sin wickedness?  And the context speaks of those whose ungodly teachings are causing them to “wander away from the truth.”  (v. 18)

*Titus 1:16 –”They claim to know God, but by their actions they deny him.”  Here it is actions, not the claiming of belief, that matters.

*Rev. 3:16 –”Because you are lukewarm –neither hot nor cold– [this whole context implies there is already belief] I am about to spit you out of My mouth.”  “Spit out” does not equal eternal life.

*1 Peter 3:12 –”The Lord is against those who do evil.”  Actions again.

*John 14:15 –”If you love Me, you will obey what I command.”  What Jesus says here does not support the attitude, “I have faith (loyalty to Christ) but gotta keep disobeying Him daily cuz I can’t help it.”

*1 John 2:4 –”The man who says, ‘I know Him,’ but does not do what He commands is a liar, and the truth [Jesus] is not in him.”

FrancisTony: @5minsmadness, you mean heresy?

Yes, thanks. The heresy of 'once saved'.

FrancisTony:

Or Sola biblica

that is sola fide mixed with "eternal security" i.e once saved always saved.

Sola fide was invented by martin luther, in the 16th century.
"eternal security" was invented by calvin in the 16th century too. Some calvinist will argue that calvin didn't really teach the above "eternal security" some say once saved always saved really "came up" in the 19th cent.

Anyhow you look at it that is not historic christian teaching, it were invented by men who thought that they understood christianity better all the christian before them and they made up the osas to explain their understanding of the bible. After that they tell us that historic christianity, confession and eucharist that have been there since the time of the apostles are wrong and that their new age teaching is the right ones for us to believe.

The christian irony.

Thanks 5minsmadness for that. However,"so also our beloved brother Paul wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, speaking of this as he does in all HIS LETTERS. There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the OTHER SCRIPTURES." 1PT 3:15-16.

Concerning eternal security, Col 1:21-23 has something to say about it. "And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled in the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: if ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister."

The truth is when we get saved we are kept secured in the hands of Jesus who promised in John 10:28 that we will never perish, and that no one will snatch us from his hands. Remember we were given ETERNAL LIFE and not unstable life neither perishable life. Rom 8:38-39 says that nothing can separate us from the love of Christ, not even our sins because if they can, then Christ actually came to die for those who are godly. But what does Rom 5:8 says,"for when we were yet sinners, Christ died for us." in the same chapter of Rom 5 in verse 17 it says that we were given "a gift of righteousness" (given to those who didn't have before). It was when we were still dead in our trespasses that Christ died for us and gave us life Eph 2:1 Col 2:13. One thing we should know is that we are dead. When we receive Christ we become dead to the world and hence died to sin Rom 6:11. Our life is kept in Christ secured. Though we still live in this world, but not we living it's we living by faith in Jesus Gal 2:20 Rom 6:8. Check out Col 3:3,"For you have died, and YOUR LIFE IS HID WITH CHRIST IN GOD." verse 4 says,"When Christ who is our life appears, then you also will appear with him." We are dead to the world Col 2:20 and you know that "he who has died is freed from sin." We are from sin and do not sin because we are dead tho living, but our real life is hid in Christ in God.

Now you think.. " ok I can do any thing I like. I can drink any how I like. I Can behave any how I like like. Though I'm actually not sinning I can sin anyhow I like." To be honest with you, you are right. Even 1Cor 10:23 says "all things are permissible" and also Rom 8:1 says "There is therefore no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus."

I'm not preaching for you to go and sin. I'm not preaching that you should go on sinning because you are not under the law, or because you are under grace. Well I'm only trying to let you know that "sin can never have dominion over you since you are not under its source, Law, but under grace." It's left to you to choose how you want to live your life. But I have a suggestion. Gal 5:13,"For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, BUT BY LOVE SERVE ONE ANOTHER."

Yet I still believe salvation can be lost, but not according to what you might be thinking. It's simple.. Lemme quote that verse again

"And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled in the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: if ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard..." You may ask. What's the gospel. Lets see it here 1Cor 15:1-4," Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, WHICH ALSO YE HAVE RECEIVED, AND WHEREIN YE STAND; BY WHICH YE ARE SAVED, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye believed in vain (now the gospel...) For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

5minsmadness, as I understand, a person can only lose salvation if he stops believing that Jesus has died for his sins and has resurrected. You don't lose salvation by works Col 2:6 says,"As therefore you received Christ Jesus the Lord, so live in him." How did you receive him? By faith. How are you to remain in him? By faith.
Heb 10:26-29 says those who reject Jesus willfully are those who are likely described as those who can never receive the forgiveness of sins because he rejects the only sacrifice to his sins, Jesus.

It's really impossible to bring people who fall away like the foolish Galatians Gal 3:1-3 who were trying to be perfect by their flesh, human efforts, instead of remaining by faith Col 2:6. They fall away Heb 6:4-6.

I'm really tight here with my post utme. I'll answer the other questions later whenever I see another chance.

Once saved, always saved?
So I can go to heaven and see all the mansions?

Nah, not interested.

The bible is very clear, "he who refuses to bear fruits will be cut off".
There is no room for once saved always saved. No christian believed such in the first 1500yrs of christianity. This is the newly invented doctrine of men, made to tell Christians that they can sin all they want and insult God's mercy and then expect to go to heaven. Hehehe. That is a doctrine of damnation.

Ubenedictus: The bible is very clear, "he who refuses to bear fruits will be cut off".
There is no room for once saved always saved. No christian believed such in the first 1500yrs of christianity. This is the newly invented doctrine of men, made to tell Christians that they can sin all they want and insult God's mercy and then expect to go to heaven. Hehehe. That is a doctrine of damnation.

Bro.. You r a stranger to the gospel of grace. You jst don't wan2 accept the truth and be saved, neither do you understand the gospel because if you do you wouldn't have deemed the grace of God as a license to keep on sinning. If you understand the gospel you will know exactly what 1John 4:19 is trying to say that, "we love him, becaused he first LOVED us." It's 4rm ur understandn ov his unconditional love towards u dat d eagerness 2 serve Him will naturally flow.

But u stil insist 2 live in ur filthy rag(self righteousness)

I'm afraid dt ur type myt b d 1s saying "but Lord didnt we do disNdat?"

I believe the Eucharist(Holy communion) is Christ's real body and blood. From my personal experience of its essence and power,Christ is truly embodied in it! Instituted at the last supper and carried on by the early Christian community in Jerusalem. As the Emmaus trip did show,in the 'breaking of bread' is Christ truly experienced.

"...whatever you bind on earth is bound in heaven,what you untie on earth is untied in heaven".Confession to priests is a sacrament of penance,and it is a valid and scripturally-backed practice. These years I have reduced going to confessions for personal reasons.

Purgatory does exist as 2 Maccabees shows. The dead shall rise again on the final day right?At the 2nd coming of Christ right?Where will they be until then? Our prayers can affect the mercy of God for the living and the dead.

Nice thread though.

Pr0ton:
Bro.. You r a stranger to the gospel of grace. You jst don't wan2 accept the truth and be saved, neither do you understand the gospel because if you do you wouldn't have deemed the grace of God as a license to keep on sinning. If you understand the gospel you will know exactly what 1John 4:19 is trying to say that, "we love him, becaused he first LOVED us." It's 4rm ur understandn ov his unconditional love towards u dat d eagerness 2 serve Him will naturally flow.

oh please!
The true gospel of grace was taught by the apostles and has been in the christian church for abt 2000yrs, the so called "new gospel of grace" is a man made invention. God's unconditional love isn't an excuse to sin, telling people lies about their salvation will only put both you and them in spiritual troubles. Go back and make research on the stuff you believe.

But u stil insist 2 live in ur filthy rag(self righteousness)
I'm afraid dt ur type myt b d 1s saying "but Lord didnt we do disNdat?"

that is the problem, you don't even understand what grace does.

When you try to be righteous by yourself that is filthy rags. When you have Christ living in you, when you live according to grace that isn't filthy rags, that is living right. And the word of God is fulfilled where it says "he who does right is righteous".

It is impossible to live right by our own power, that is why we've gat grace.

And if i still remember that parable correctly, those who were accepted by God are those were those who feed the hungry, home the homeless, clothes the clothless, and do good to their neighbours, those were those accepted by God, those who moved mountains in his name didn't get it, those who lived right by grace were counted righteous.

It seems you missed that part in the parable, grace enables the Christian to live right, and a christian who isn't living right isn't really in grace.

Once saved always saved is a sham.

@Ubenedictus
The argument won't get us anywhere as I'm not ready to yield to your views and your not ready to yield to mine. And maybe we draw the line here.

But before then lemme brief this with you

Lets take for assumption. I said I would give you $1,000,000. You would collect that with joy because I gave it to you freely, and you would always be thanking me now and then even doing things that would please me and make me happy.
But if I said I'd give you this $1,000,000 only if you do this and that. You wouldn't be able tell others that you received the money freely. And your attitude to that person can not be compared with the one who received it freely.

There are numerous verses in the Bible that say salvation is a gift from God and we do not work for it, verses like eph 2:8-9, rom 10:9, titus 3:5, 2Tim 1:9 and many more. Or maybe I should quote Rom 11:6," and if it is by grace, then it is no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace.

Salvation is given freely

Pr0ton: @Ubenedictus
The argument won't get us anywhere as I'm not ready to yield to your views and your not ready to yield to mine. And maybe we draw the line here.

But before then lemme brief this with you

Lets take for assumption. I said I would give you $1,000,000. You would collect that with joy because I gave it to you freely, and you would always be thanking me now and then even doing things that would please me and make me happy.
But if I said I'd give you this $1,000,000 only if you do this and that. You wouldn't be able tell others that you received the money freely. And your attitude to that person can not be compared with the one who received it freely.

There are numerous verses in the Bible that say salvation is a gift from God and we do not work for it, verses like eph 2:8-9, rom 10:9, titus 3:5, 2Tim 1:9 and many more. Or maybe I should quote Rom 11:6," and if it is by grace, then it is no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace.

Salvation is given freely

salvation is a gift given freely in the sense that it can't be strictly or truly merited by good works. Infact there is nothing man can do or will ever do that will merit him salvation. It is grace, it is given freely. BUT, salvation also comes with preconditions, no 1 precondition is faith! You need to believe to be saved, the bible says "by grace you have been saved through faith".

The second point is that like all free gifts salvation and grace can be rejected, it is rejected by what st john calls "deadly sins". It is rejected each time we turn away from God. That is why Jesus says "whoever does not bear fruit will be cut off", the cut of branch will wither and be used for fire wood.

Salvations can be rejected and it can be lost anyone who tells you it can't be lost is lying to you.

Ubenedictus: salvation is a gift given freely in the sense that it can be strictly or truly merited by good works. Infact there is nothing man can do or will ever do that will merit him salvation. It is grace, it is given freely. BUT, salvation also comes with preconditions, no 1 precondition is faith! You need to believe to be saved, the bible says "by grace you have been saved through faith".

The second point is that like all free gifts salvation and grace can be rejected, it is rejected by what st john calls "deadly sins". It is rejected each time we turn away from God. That is why Jesus says "whoever does not bear fruit will be cut off", the cut of branch will wither and be used for fire wood.

Salvations can be rejected and it can be lost anyone who tells you it can't be lost is lying to you.

I'm done



unfollows thread...

Pr0ton:

I'm done



unfollows thread...

are you runing away? I have been polite and i have rebuted your teaching of once saved always saved. Go and read the scriptures dear, and correct yourself.

Ubenedictus: are you runing away? I have been polite and i have rebuted your teaching of once saved always saved. Go and read the scriptures dear, and correct yourself.

Titus 3:9-11
"But avoid stupid controversies, genealogies, dissensions, and quarrels over the law, for they are unprofitable and futile. As for a man who is factious, after admonishing him once or twice, have nothing more to do with him , knowing that such a person is perverted and sinful; he is self-condemned."

As you can see, I'm not actually running away. I'm doing what the word says.

I'd love to spend my time with someone who counts himself as dung, realizes his great need of a savior, and who's ready to accept the gospel of grace which is able to save his soul eternally.

But as for heretics like you, this is what I will do...
Act 18:6
"And when they opposed and reviled him, he shook out his garments and said to them, 'Your blood be upon your heads! I am innocent. From now on I will go to the Gentiles."

Pr0ton:
Titus 3:9-11
"But avoid stupid controversies, genealogies, dissensions, and quarrels over the law, for they are unprofitable and futile. As for a man who is factious, after admonishing him once or twice, have nothing more to do with him , knowing that such a person is perverted and sinful; he is self-condemned."

As you can see, I'm not actually running away. I'm doing what the word says.

thank God i never even discussed the law with you. What i discussed is your heretic once saved always saved. The scriptures also say in the later men men will teach different strange doctrine.

I'd love to spend my time with someone who counts himself as dung, realizes his great need of a savior, and who's ready to accept the gospel of grace which is able to save his soul eternally.

sorry dear,

i WAS dung, i WAS in need of a saviour, i WAS! Now i'm in grace, i have a saviour, i continue as st paul says to die daily to flesh, i continue to work out my salvation with fear and trembling, i continue to go before the throne of grace when i sin, i am still in Christ who is the true vine. I don't go about deceiving other and myself telling them that "he who does not bear fruit will be left on the vine" i don't lie to people, i tell them the truth, that he who is in the vine can be cut off and he will be cut off if he produces no fruit.

That is the true gospel of grace and i believe it. Take the heresy of luther and calvin and throw it away.

But as for heretics like you, this is what I will do...
Act 18:6
"And when they opposed and reviled him, he shook out his garments and said to them, 'Your blood be upon your heads! I am innocent. From now on I will go to the Gentiles."

hehehe, if you are clinging to your errors, then truly your blood is on your own head.

Dear ubenedictus.. I've had a nice time with you.. And as I leave you I'd like you to be aware of these wonders you leave me with...

If he's no longer a dung why does he still go to the priest for confession and absolution. Maybe he doesn't really believe that fact. Maybe he is partially no longer a dung. Who knows. But before he starts quoting 1Jh 1:9 he should know that that verse is not for believers as John is sharing the truth with the Gnosis who believe sin doesn't exist and so they never sin contradicting God's word in Rom 3:23.

Another wonder is why does he still count his self-righteousness as something, behaving as those in Matt 7:22 who Jesus would quote Isa 64:6 to.

Yet another wonder is what fruit does he think we bear. I believe the fruit he speaks of is the type even unbelievers can bear (good works). Maybe he should reconsider the last sentence in John 15:5 and understand the essense of Christ's righteousness.
But who knows..

Good day Friend.

Pr0ton: Dear ubenedictus.. I've had a nice time with you.. And as I leave you I'd like you to be aware of these wonders you leave me with...

If he's no longer a dung why does he still go to the priest for confession and absolution. Maybe he doesn't really believe that fact. Maybe he is partially no longer a dung. Who knows. But before he starts quoting 1Jh 1:9 he should know that that verse is not for believers as John is sharing the truth with the Gnosis who believe sin doesn't exist and so they never sin contradicting God's word in Rom 3:23.

Another wonder is why does he still count his self-righteousness as something, behaving as those in Matt 7:22 who Jesus would quote Isa 64:6 to.

Yet another wonder is what fruit does he think we bear. I believe the fruit he speaks of is the type even unbelievers can bear (good works). Maybe he should reconsider the last sentence in John 15:5 and understand the essense of Christ's righteousness.
But who knows..

Good day Friend.

1. 1jn 2:1
jm5:15
jn 20:23.


2. I do not believe in self righteousness. I can not he righteous by myself that is why i have grace.

3. I understand that passage, do you understand jn15:2?

RoyalRoy: I do not do confessions the usual way.....non at all. My confession goes straight to God.

Purgatory is an idea that is subject ti debate... just as the existence of heaven and hell too.

To each his or her own.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church defines purgatory as a "purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven," which is experienced by those "who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified" (CCC 1030). It notes that "this final purification of the elect . . . is entirely different from the punishment of the damned" (CCC 1031).

The purification is necessary because, as Scripture teaches, nothing unclean will enter the presence of God in heaven (Rev. 21:27) and, while we may die with our mortal sins forgiven, there can still be many impurities in us, specifically venial sins and the temporal punishment due to sins already forgiven.



Two Judgments

When we die, we undergo what is called the particular, or individual, judgment. Scripture says that "it is appointed for men to die once, and after that comes judgment" (Heb. 9:27). We are judged instantly and receive our reward, for good or ill. We know at once what our final destiny will be. At the end of time, when Jesus returns, there will come the general judgment to which the Bible refers, for example, in Matthew 25:31-32: "When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats." In this general judgment all our sins will be publicly revealed (Luke 12:2–5).

Augustine said, in The City of God, that "temporary punishments are suffered by some in this life only, by others after death, by others both now and then; but all of them before that last and strictest judgment" (21:13). It is between the particular and general judgments, then, that the soul is purified of the remaining consequences of sin: "I tell you, you will never get out till you have paid the very last copper" (Luke 12:59).

just want to say cococandy i trip for u and am a proud catholic

i think i like u cococandy

Henrychris: i think i like u cococandy

Thank you

Proud catholic .

;DToday as we celebrate d birthday of our blessed
mother Mary,may she continue 2 be our mediator
with d father and always intercede 4 us in every
situation of our lives IJN Amen.