The reader should have it in mind that in other for Muslims to explain away the problem of plurality within the divine person of Allah they claimed that ROYAL PRONOUN was used by Allah in Qur'an but does it solve the problem?..... Let's see!

1) There's no a plurality of Divine Persons according to Islamic theology yet the Quran says Allah does have a God, Lord, or Master.

What, shall I seek after any judge but God? For it is He who sent down to you the Book well-distinguished; and those whom We have given the Book know it is sent down from thy Lord with the truth; so be not thou of the doubters. S. 6:114

What, is every man of them eager to be admitted to a Garden of Bliss? Not so; for We have created them of what they know. No! I swear by the Lord of the Easts and Wests, surely We are able to substitute a better than they; We shall not be outstripped. S. 70:38-41.

Allah swears by the Lord of the easts and wests, says that he will seek no other judge besides God and that he gave the book that Muhammad’s Lord sent down!

2) Whom did Allah pray to?
He it is who prays for you and His angels too, to bring you forth out of the darkness into the light, for He is merciful to the believers. S. 33:43 Palmer

Verily, God AND His angels pray for the prophet. O ye who believe! pray for him and salute him with a salutation! S. 33:56 Palmer

Prayer entails calling upon or supplicating someone who can hear you, which in the context of Islamic worship means invoking Allah:

3) Who did Allah hymn praises to?
Lo! verily, ye and that which ye worship, Ye cannot excite (anyone) against Him. Save him who is to burn in hell. There is not one of US but hath his known position. Lo! We, even We are they who set the ranks, Lo! WE, even WE are they who hymn His praise S. 37:161-166 Pickthall

Allah is supposed to speaking here as he shifts from first person plural to third person singular pronouns. But this is where the confusion sets in. He knows his position, sets the ranks, and is the one who hymns the praises of God! Who tells Allah what his position is and to whom is singing?

4) And (as for) those who take guardians besides Him, Allah watches over them, and you have not charge over them. And thus have We revealed to you an Arabic Quran, that you may warn the mother city and those around it, and that you may give warning of the day of gathering together wherein is no doubt; a party shall be in the garden and (another) party in the burning fire. And if Allah had pleased He would surely have made them a single community, but He makes whom He pleases enter into His mercy, and the unjust it is that shall have no guardian or helper. Or have they taken guardians besides Him? But Allah is the Guardian, and He gives life to the dead, and He has power over all things. And in whatever thing you disagree, the judgment thereof is (in) Allah's (hand); that is Allah, MY Lord, on Him do I rely and to Him do I turn time after time. S. 42:6-10 Shakir

The one (We) who revealed the Quran to Muhammad (you) is speaking here, which means that this is Allah who is addressing Muhammad. But, then, the one who revealed the Quran not only refers to Allah in the third person (Allah, Him) but also says that Allah is his Lord whom he relies on and constantly turns to! In other words, Allah is saying that Allah is his Lord whom he depends on!


For more: http://answeringislam.org/Shamoun/muslim_god_criteria.htm

Who addressed Moses?

When Moses said to his people 'I observe a fire, and will bring you news of it, or I will bring you a flaming brand, that haply you shall warm yourselves.' So, when he came to it, he was called: 'Blessed is he who is in the fire, and he who is about it. Glory be to God, the Lord of all Being! Moses, behold, it is I, God, the All-mighty, the All-wise. Cast down thy staff.' And when he saw it quivering like a serpent he turned about, retreating, and turned not back. 'Moses, fear not; surely the Envoys do not fear in My presence, save him who has done evil, then; after evil, has changed into good; All-forgiving am I, All-compassionate. Thrust thy hand in thy bosom and it will come forth white without evil-among nine signs to Pharaoh and his people; they are an ungodly people.' But when Our signs came to them visibly, they said, 'This is a manifest sorcery'; and they denied them, though their souls acknowledged them, wrongfully and out of pride. Behold, how was the end of the workers of corruption! S. 27:7-14



For more: http://answeringislam.org/Quran/Miracle/not_so_eloquent.html

interesting. Allah is weak. Expect know reply Bros.

Allah praising itself;

Muslims claim is that Qur'an is a pure word of Allah without any human interjection but when one read Qur'an s/he finds the speaker speaking in first person pronouns, third person plural pronouns or referring to someone else.

Who is the Lord of the throne here?

Why, were there gods in earth and heaven other than God, they would surely go to ruin; so glory be to God, the Lord of the Throne, above that they describe! He shall not be questioned as to what He does, but they shall he questioned. Or have they taken gods apart from Him? Say: 'Bring your proof! This is the Remembrance of him who is with me, and the Remembrance of those before me. Nay, but the most part of them know not the truth, so therefore they are turning away. And We sent never a Messenger before thee except that We revealed to him, saying, 'There is no god but I; so serve Me.' They say:' 'The All-merciful has taken to Him a son.' Glory be to Him! Nay, but they are honoured servants that outstrip Him not in speech, and perform as He commands. He knows what is before them and behind them, and they intercede not save for him with whom He is well-pleased, and they tremble in awe of Him. If any of them says, 'I am a god apart from Him', such a one We recompense with Gehenna; even so We recompense the evildoers. S. 21:22-29

malvisguy212: interesting. Allah is weak. Expect know reply Bros.

Abi oooo my brother no wonder there's no single respond since the thread has been opened.

What grade will you give Allah for its English composition?

Emusan:

Abi oooo my brother no wonder there's no single respond since the thread has been opened.

What grade will you give Allah for its English composition?

I will give him, the same grade with muhammad......... we all know the level of education muhammad reach.



maby muhammad and allah is the same person.

Insha Allah bi kudratillah

I will reply everything in the OP tommorrow..

please bear with me..

These are serious expositions. Well noted.

Quran is pure spiritual manipulations.

Rilwayne001: Insha Allah bi kudratillah

I will reply everything in the OP tommorrow..

please bear with me..

Please kindly do me this favour before we proceed.

Do you believed that 'WE, HIM, HIS, OUR, US' as agreed by many Muslim scholars to be a royal plural pronouns and third person pronouns used for Allah?

NOTE: They did this in other to explain away the plurality of many Allah(Gods) in Qur'an.

Does Muhammad or Angel Gabriel word appear in the Qur'an?

Allah has described Jibreel with great characteristics, as He says:

“[That] indeed, the Qur’an is a word [conveyed by] a noble messenger. [Who is] possessed of power and with the Owner of the Throne, secure [in position].Obeyed there [in the heavens] and trustworthy.And your companion is not [at all] mad.And he has already seen Gabriel in the clear horizon.” [Surah At-Takweer: 81:19-23]

The First Attribute: Power: The “Lord of the Throne” here refers to Allaah.

The Second Attribute: Position: “High rank with the Lord of the Throne. ” This means that he possesses a high position in the sight of Allaah, which no one else has reached.

The Third Attribute: Obedience: All of the angels obey Jibreel by the Permission of Allah.

One thing i want you to note is that the Quran was not revealed in english it was only tranlated to wnglish language, and we cannot grasp the original message in other language like the one it was revealed..

Emusan:

Please kindly do me this favour before we proceed.

Do you believed that 'WE, HIM, HIS, OUR, US' as agreed by many Muslim scholars to be a royal plural pronouns and third person pronouns used for Allah?

First of all, you have provide the muslim scholars who agreed that HIM and HIS is a royal pronouns...

Please provide prove for this.

Emusan: NOTE: They did this in other to explain away the plurality of many Allah(Gods) in Qur'an.

Does Muhammad or Angel Gabriel word appear in the Qur'an?

The prophet's word does not appear in the Quran, but that of the Angel appeared in it because i wonder how the person through whom the message is conveyed will not appear in it, since it is not that a book was just given to him.

“[That] indeed, the Qur’an is a word [conveyed by] a NOBLE messenger. [Who is] possessed of power and with the Owner of the Throne, secure [in position].Obeyed there [in the heavens] and trustworthy. And your companion is not [at all] mad.And he has already seen Gabriel in the clear horizon.” [Surah At-Takweer: 81:19-23]

Is the bible word of Yahweh or of those 40+ men that wrote it?

please answer my questions too before we move further..

Also this is that the prophet have to say about Angel Jibril..

Imam Ahmad recorded that Ibn ` Abbas said, "A group of Jews came to Allah's Prophet and said,"Talk to us about some things we will ask you and which only a Prophet would know. 'He said, Ask me about whatever you wish. However, give your pledge to Allah, similar to the pledge that Ya`qub took from his children, that if I tell you something and you recognize its truth, you will follow me in Islam. ' They said, ` Agreed. ' The Prophet said, ` Ask me about whatever you wish. ' They said, ` Tell us about four matters:
1. What kinds of food did Isra'il prohibit for himself

2. What about the sexual discharge of the woman and the man, and what role does each play in producing male or female of fspring

3. Tell us about the condit ion of the unlettered Prophet during sleep,

4. And who is his Wali among the angels'. The Prophet took their covenant that they will follow him if he answers these questions, and they agreed.
................(to cut the story short) 'They said, Tell us now about your Wali among the angels, for this is when we either follow or shun you. 'He said, `My Wali is Jibril, and Allah never sent a Prophet , but Jibril is his Wali. ' They said, `We then shun you. Had you a Wali other than Jibril,we would have followed you. ' On that , Allah, the Exalted revealed, (Say: "Whoever is an enemy to Jibril. . . '') 2:97_ . ''

Verily, We Ourselves have sent down this Exhortation, and most surely We will be its Guardian, (Al-Hijr, 15:10)

This verse furnishes a powerful proof of the truth of the Quran and of its divine origin. In fact, the promise about the preservation of the Quran made in this verse has been remarkably fulfilled that even if there had been no other proof of the truth of Islam, this alone would have sufficed to establish its divine origin.

Verse 8 of this Sura, contains the demand, mockingly made by disbelievers that if the Quran were really as grand a book as it was claimed to be, it ought to have descended under the guardianship of angels. This ridicule of disbelievers has been answered in the present verse, which emphatically says that the Quran is indeed a sublime book and that God Himself has undertaken to act as its Guardian and that He will always protect it against every kind of corruption and interference. And in order that this promise about the protection of the Quran may gain still more force, particles expressive of special emphasis, such as 'Anna' (verily We) and 'Nahnou' (Ourselves) and again 'Anna' followed by 'Lam' (most surely) have been used in this verse. Thus the claim has been made in the most emphatic and forceful language.

The statement that God Himself is the Guardian (wali) of the Quran does not mean that angels do not guard it. They also do so, for when the master himself is guarding a thing, the servants must also be necessarily engaged in that service. By saying, most surely We will be its Guardian, God, however, points to the fact that there are certain peculiarities of the Quran which it is beyond the power of angels to guard and therefore, God Himself has undertaken to do that work.

"'Umar b. al-Khattab (Allah be pleased with him) reported: When Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) kept himself away from his wives, I entered the mosque, and found people striking the ground with pebblesand saying: Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) has divorced his wives, and that was before they were commanded to observe seclusion 'Umar said to himself: I must find this (actual position) today. So I went to 'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) and said (to her): Daughter of Abu Bakr, have you gone to the extent of giving trouble to Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him)? Thereupon she said: Son of Khattab, you have nothing to do with me, and I have nothing to do with you. You should look to your own receptacle. He ('Umar) said: I visited Hafsa daughter of 'Umar, and said to her: Hafsa, the (news) has reached me that you cause Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) trouble. You know that Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) does not love you, and had I not been (your father) he would have divorced you. (On hearing this) she wept bitterly. I said to her: Where is Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him)? Shesaid: He is in the attic room. I went in and found Rabah, the servant of Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him), sitting on the thresholds of the window dangling his feet on the hollow wood of the date-palm with the help of which Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) climbed (to the apartment) and came down. I cried: 0 Rabah, seek permission for me from Allah's Messenger (way peace be upon him). Rabah cast a glance at the apartment and then looked toward me but said nothing. I again said: Rabah, seek permission for me from Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him). Rabah looked towards the apartment and then cast a glance at me, but said nothig. I then raised my voice and said: 0 Rabah, seek permission for me from Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him). I think that Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) is under the impression that I have come for the sake of Hafsa. By Allah, if Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) would command me to strike her neck, I would certainly strike her neck. I raised my voice and he pointed me to climb up (and get into his apartment). I visited Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him), and he was lying on a mat. I sat down and he drew up his lower garment over him and he had nothing (else) over him, and that the mat had left its marks on his sides. I looked with my eyes in the store room of Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him). I found only a handful of barley equal to one sa' and an equal quantity of the leaves of Mimosa Flava placed in the nook of the cell, and a semi-tanned leather bag hanging (in one side), and I was moved to tears (on seeing this extremely austere living of the Holy Piophet), and he said: Ibn Khattab, what wakes you weep?

I said: Apostle of Allah, why should I not shed tears? This mat has left its marks on your sides and I do not see in your store room (except these few things) that I have seen; Ceasar and Closroes are leading their lives in plenty whereas you are Allah's Messenger. His chosen one, and that is your store! He said: Ibn Khattab, aren't you satisfied that for us (there should be the prosperity) of the Hereafter, and for them (there should be the prosperity of) this world? I said: Yes. And as I had entered I had seen the signs of anger on his face, and I therefore, said: Messenger of Allah, what trouble do you feel from your wives, and if you have divorced them, [size=20pt]verily Allah is with you, His angels, Gabriel, Mika'il,[/size] I and Abu Bakr and the believers are with you. And seldom I talked and (which I uttered on that day) I hoped that Allah would testify to my words that I uttered. And so the verse of option (Ayat al-Takhyir) was revealed. Maybe his Lord, if he divorce you, will give him in your place wives better than you..." (Ixv. 5). And if you back up one another against him, then surely[size=20pt] Allah is his Patron, and Gabriel[/size] and the righteous believers, and the angels after that are the aidera (lvi. 4). And it was 'A'isha, daughter of Abu Bakr, and Hafsa who had prevailed upon all the wives of Allah's Prophet (way peace be upon him) for (pressing them for mote money). I said: Messenger of Allah, have you divorced them? He said: No. I said: Messenger of Allah, I entered the mosque and found the Muslims playing with pebbles (absorbed in thought) and saying: Allah's Messenger has divorced his wives. Should I get down and inform there that you have not divorced them? He said: Yes, if you so like. And I went on talking to him until I (found) the signs of anger disappeared on his face and (his seriousness was changed to a happy mood and as a result thereof) his face had the natural tranquillity upon it and he laughed and his teeth were the most charming (among the teeth) of all people. Then Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) climbed down and I also climbed down and catching hold of the wood of the palm-tree and Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) came down (with such ease) as if he was walking on the ground, not touching anything with his hand (to get support). I said: Messenger of Allah, you remained in your apartment for twenty-nine days. He said: (At times) the month consists of twenty-nine days. I stood at the door of the mosque and I called out at the top of my voice: The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) has not divorced his wives (and it was on this occasion that this) verse was revealed:" And if any matter pertaining to peace or alarm comes within their ken, they broadcast it; whereas, if they would refer it to the Apostle and those who have been entrusted with authority amongst them, those of them who are engaged in obtaining intelligence would indeed know (what to do with) it" (iv 83). And it was I who understood this matter, and Allah revealed the verse pertaining to option (given to the Holy Prophet (may peace be upon him in regard to the retaining or divorcing of his wives). (Translation of Sahih Muslim, Book 9: The Book of Divorce (Kitab Al-Talaq), Number 3507)"

Narrated Abu Huraira: "One day while the Prophet was sitting in the company of some people, (The angel) Gabriel came and asked, "What is faith?" Allah's Apostle replied, 'Faith is to believe in Allah, His angels, (the) meeting with Him, His Apostles, and to believe in Resurrection." Then he further asked, "What is Islam?" Allah's Apostle replied, "To worship Allah Alone and none else, to offer prayers perfectly to pay the compulsory charity (Zakat) and to observe fasts during the month of Ramadan." Then he further asked, "What is Ihsan (perfection)?" Allah's Apostle replied, "To worship Allah as if you see Him, and if you cannot achieve this state of devotion then you must consider that He is looking at you." Then he further asked, "When will the Hour be established?" Allah's Apostle replied, "The answerer has no better knowledge than the questioner. But I will inform you about its portents.

1. When a slave (lady) gives birth to her master.

2. When the shepherds of black camels start boasting and competing with others in the construction of higher buildings. And the Hour is one of five things which nobody knows except Allah.

The Prophet then recited: "Verily, with Allah (Alone) is the knowledge of the Hour--." (31. 34) Then that man (Gabriel) left and the Prophet asked his companions to call him back, but they could not see him. Then the Prophet said, [size=20pt]"That was Gabriel who came to teach the people their religion."[/size] Abu 'Abdullah said: He (the Prophet) considered all that as a part of faith. (Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Volume 1, Book 2, Number 47)"

ANd before i start replying the OP...Please answer this questions

Genesis 1:26-27
26 Then God said , "Let US make man in OUR image, in OUR likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground."

First of all, who was the one talking here, God or the writer of Genesis?, Is the writer present when God was Doing all this talkings?
And can you please expantiate about US and OUR in the passage?

27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

Also who was talking here?, the person must have been present there..

Also in the bible we read
Genesis 11:6-8New International Version (NIV)

6 The Lord said, “If as one people speaking the same language they have begun to do this, then nothing they plan to do will be impossible for them.

7 "[size=15pt]Come, let us go down,[/size] and there confound their language so they will not understand each other.”"

8 So the Lord scattered them from there over all the earth, and they stopped building the city.

They must have been many up there ooo

To whom does the "us" refer?

Rilwayne001: One thing i want you to note is that the Quran was not revealed in english it was only tranlated to wnglish language, and we cannot grasp the original message in other language like the one it was revealed..

Does it mean we can't express ourselves in Arabic clearly the way we express ourselves in English.

First of all, you have provide the muslim scholars who agreed that HIM and HIS is a royal pronouns...
Please provide prove for this.

I don't need to provide anything even you yourself must agree because the reason they claimed royal pronouns for We, Us or Our is to guide against MANY GODHEAD in the Qur'an BUT IF YOU disagree then tell us why Allah is using plural PERSONAL pronouns when Allah is one.

The prophet's word does not appear in the Quran, but that of the Angel appeared in it because i wonder how the person through whom the message is conveyed will not appear in it, since it is not that a book was just given to him.

So you agree that Qur'an is not 100% Allah's Allah's word.
Then Jibril is also another Allah for using PERSONAL AND PLURAL FIRST person pronouns.

“[That] indeed, the Qur’an is a word [conveyed by] a NOBLE messenger. [Who is] possessed of power and with the Owner of the Throne, secure [in position].Obeyed there [in the heavens] and trustworthy. And your companion is not [at all] mad.And he has already seen Gabriel in the clear horizon.” [Surah At-Takweer: 81:19-23]

See how those inserted words beautify this sura.
If you remove all the inserted words you yourself know what will happen to the rest of the statement....MEANINGLESS!

Is the bible word of Yahweh or of those 40+ men that wrote it?

The Bible is the word of Yahweh whom He used those 40+ men to convey to the rest of the world.
Remember Christian didn't claim Yahweh recites or dictate all the words in the Bible rather Yahweh uses His Holy Spirit to guide each one BUT as the writers were puting down their work they chose the style.

please answer my questions too before we move further..

I've answered sir.

From everything you put up there about jibril are we to conclude that Angel Jibril is the same as Allah or because of its rank and character that gave It the audacity to be using PERSONAL pronouns in delivering the message when 'I' 'me' are to be reference to Allah?

Or the poor arrangement of words to differentiate the Narrator from the speaker which suppose to be Allah.

I'll juxtapose more about the story of Moses to have the clue of what I'm talking about.

Next time don't quote your OWN post when you need a reply.

Rilwayne001: ANd before i start replying the OP...Please answer this questions

I will sir.

First of all, who was the one talking here, God or the writer of Genesis?, Is the writer present when God was Doing all this talkings?
And can you please expatiate about US and OUR in the passage?

Firstly, Gen 1:26-27 you quoted above pose no problem for Christian because The Father was talking to the Son and the Holy Sprit. This indicate how a Holy book full of wisdom should be arranged. So this should tell you that Yahweh is a Trinity right from the Genesis.

Secondly, see the way the writer concisely arranged his word by differentiating when God is talking in PLURALITY without shifting in grammatical expression this is how a knowledgeable God directs His writing not like that of QUR'AN

Lastly, the opening words in that verse is "And God said.." which implies that the narrator or the speaker has stopped talking only interjecting God's own word which is very clear.

NOTE: Some linguistics Quranic problem can still be overlooked if this Arabic word "qul" which means "say" inserted at the beginning of those verses but nothing like that.

What most English translators usually do is to insert this word "say" to make it looks as if the statement is actually from Allah that Jibril is just a narrator.

27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.
Also who was talking here?, the person must have been present there..

You're mistaken, the speaker or Narrator has already indicated who was talking by the phrase "So God.....in the image of GOD.... the narrator didn't say "I" "me" or using a plural pronouns 'We or Us' (which will indicate that the speaker is part of people who partakes in the creation of man like angel Jibril always does.


I challenge you to produce a clear verse like this in the Qur'an where the word of the speaker or narrator was well arranged without conflicting Allah's word or makes the speaker looks like many people were talking THIS MUST NOT include translator's insertion.


I believe this answer other post of yours.

@Rilwayne001

SAMPLE 1

Analysis of Moses encountered with Allah.

I'll insert my word in bracket.

So, when he(Moses) came to it, he(Moses) was called 'Blessed is he who is in the fire, and he who is about it. Glory be to God, the Lord of all Being! Moses, behold, it is I, God, the All-mighty, the All-wise.

From this surah many problems arise:
1) The underlined statement was already indicated that Moses was called by someone.
Then if Moses was called, who called Moses?

2) We see the narrator trying to made us know that another person is now talking which suppose to be Allah inside the burning bush.

3) The person who called Moses firstly praised him/herself with the statement "Blessed is he who is in the fire...."
NOTE: the HE in this phrase suppose to be referring to Allah BUT the question we must ask here is who is talking when the underlined statement "....who is in the fire" already made it clear that it's Allah that is actually in the fire?

4) The narrator still goes on to say "Glory be to GOD" remember after Moses was called by the one who is in the fire who supposedly to be Allah is when the conversation begins.

5) To tell you that this is purely wrong linguistic composition the narrator/writer finally identified Allah as the SPEAKER by this statement "Moses, behold it is I, God

Doesn't the same God first says "Blessed is he.......or....Glory be to God"? whose God Blessed or Glory be to?
Could it be Allah who later identified Itself as God again or angel Jibril who is narrating the story?

Definitely it could not be Jibril because MOSES was already called by the one in the fire.

So it is Allah who is praising Itself or another God.

Sample 2 is coming!

Emusan:

Does it mean we can't express ourselves in Arabic clearly the way we express ourselves in English.

The Quran is clear in Arabic much more than the way it is in English since it was revealed in Arabic...thats my point..

Emusan: I don't need to provide anything even you yourself must agree because the reason they claimed royal pronouns for We, Us or Our is to guide against MANY GODHEAD in the Qur'an BUT IF YOU disagree then tell us why Allah is using plural PERSONAL pronouns when Allah is one.

I showed you times in my post on this thread that The Quran is Allah's word which was conveyed to the prophet through Angel Jibril, and i said there is no way you will be conveying a message of your boss to a third party without your adding your own word to it, Angel jibril is just like a teacher teaching the prophet the word of God, Therefore both God and The angels word appeared in it (The angel acting like a teacher and Allah revealing himself in some part.

Verily, We Ourselves have sent down this Exhortation, and most surely We will be its Guardian, (Al-Hijr, 15:10)

Verse 8 of this Sura, contains the demand, mockingly made by disbelievers that if the Quran were really as grand a book as it was claimed to be, it ought to have descended under the guardianship of angels. This ridicule of disbelievers has been answered in the present verse, which emphatically says that the Quran is indeed a sublime book and that God Himself has undertaken to act as its Guardian and that He will always protect it against every kind of corruption and interference. And in order that this promise about the protection of the Quran may gain still more force, particles expressive of special emphasis, such as 'Anna' (verily We) and 'Nahnou' (Ourselves) and again 'Anna' followed by 'Lam' (most surely) have been used in this verse. Thus the claim has been made in the most emphatic and forceful language.

The statement that God Himself is the Guardian (wali) of the Quran does not mean that angels do not guard it. They also do so, for when the master himself is guarding a thing, the servants must also be necessarily engaged in that service. By saying, most surely We will be its Guardian, God, however, points to the fact that there are certain peculiarities of the Quran which it is beyond the power of angels to guard and therefore, God Himself has undertaken to do that work.

I also showed you that the prophet affirm that Angel jibril is his Guidian

Imam Ahmad recorded that Ibn ` Abbas said, "A group of Jews came to Allah's Prophet and said,"Talk to us about some things we will ask you and which only a Prophet would know. 'He said, Ask me about whatever you wish. However, give your pledge to Allah, similar to the pledge that Ya`qub took from his children, that if I tell you something and you recognize its truth, you will follow me in Islam. ' They said, ` Agreed. ' The Prophet said, ` Ask me about whatever you wish. ' They said, ` Tell us about four matters:
1. What kinds of food did Isra'il prohibit for himself

2. What about the intimate discharge of the woman and the man, and what role does each play in producing male or female of fspring

3. Tell us about the condit ion of the unlettered Prophet during sleep,

4. And who is his Wali among the angels'. The Prophet took their covenant that they will follow him if he answers these questions, and they agreed.
................(to cut the story short) 'They said, Tell us now about your Wali among the angels, for this is when we either follow or shun you. 'He said, [size=20pt]` My Wali is Jibril, and Allah never sent a Prophet , but Jibril is his Wali.[/size] ' They said, `We then shun you. Had you a Wali other than Jibril,we would have followed you. ' On that , Allah, the Exalted revealed, (Say: "Whoever is an enemy to Jibril. . . '') 2:97_ . '

I also showed you that The prophet say of angel Jibril

Narrated Abu Huraira: "One day while the Prophet was sitting in the company of some people, (The angel) Gabriel came and asked, "What is faith?" Allah's Apostle replied, 'Faith is to believe in Allah, His angels, (the) meeting with Him, His Apostles, and to believe in Resurrection." Then he further asked, "What is Islam?" Allah's Apostle replied, "To worship Allah Alone and none else, to offer prayers perfectly to pay the compulsory charity (Zakat) and to observe fasts during the month of Ramadan." Then he further asked, "What is Ihsan (perfection)?" Allah's Apostle replied, "To worship Allah as if you see Him, and if you cannot achieve this state of devotion then you must consider that He is looking at you." Then he further asked, "When will the Hour be established?" Allah's Apostle replied, "The answerer has no better knowledge than the questioner. But I will inform you about its portents.

1. When a slave (lady) gives birth to her master.

2. When the shepherds of black camels start boasting and competing with others in the construction of higher buildings. And the Hour is one of five things which nobody knows except Allah.

The Prophet then recited: "Verily, with Allah (Alone) is the knowledge of the Hour--." (31. 34) Then that man (Gabriel) left and the Prophet asked his companions to call him back, but they could not see him. Then the Prophet said, [size=20pt]"That was Gabriel who came to teach the people their religion."[/size] Abu 'Abdullah said: He (the Prophet) considered all that as a part of faith. (Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Volume 1, Book 2, Number 47)"

Also....
“[That] indeed, the Qur’an is a word [size=15pt][conveyed by] a NOBLE messenger[/size]. [Who is] possessed of power [size=15pt]and with the Owner of the Throne[/size], secure [in position].Obeyed there [in the heavens] and trustworthy. And your companion is not [at all] mad.And he has already seen Gabriel in the clear horizon.” [Surah At-Takweer: 81:19-23]

I dont know if you get the point in the above verse.....It clearly stated here

Emusan: So you agree that Qur'an is not 100% Allah's Allah's word.
Then Jibril is also another Allah for using PERSONAL AND PLURAL FIRST person pronouns.

The Quran is 100% Allah's word because i have already showed you the rank of Angel Gabriel, therefore he (the angel) cannot say anything save by Allah, I showed you where the prophet affirm that he (jibril) is a guardian to him, also the prophet said Jubril is a teacher who taught him the word of God and the Quran was written according to how Jibril was conveying it to him...What else do you want?

Emusan: See how those inserted words beautify this sura.
If you remove all the inserted words you yourself know what will happen to the rest of the statement....MEANINGLESS!

“indeed, the Qur’an is a word a NOBLE messenger. possessed of power and with the Owner of the Throne, secure .Obeyed there and trustworthy. And your companion is not mad.And he has already seen Gabriel in the clear horizon.” [Surah At-Takweer: 81:19-23]

Is it meaningless like this'

The translation is just to make the reader grasp the message the Arabic Quran is trying pass, thats why we do not have one translation but there is only one arabic Quran, which many translator tried to tranlate into english in other for the english people to understand it. No matter how add they try it will still not sound hard like the arabic one. Because there are some words of arabic that might not be present in english words therefore they fiind an alternative to them. Therefore the interpolation in that verse is to help the reader grasp the message the Quran is trying to pass.

Here is the Pickall tranlation of that Surah
That this is in truth the word of an honoured messenger, Mighty, established in the presence of the Lord of the Throne, (One) to be obeyed, and trustworthy; And your comrade is not mad. [Surah At-Takweer: 81:19-23] That is, he is not just an ordinary messager, he is a trust worthy and that he is to be obeyed. And i showed you up there that apart from the angel guiding and teaching the prohet the Quran, Allah is also guiding it.

Emusan: The Bible is the word of Yahweh whom He used those 40+ men to convey to the rest of the world.

Every single word of the bible is the word of Yahweh himself right?

Emusan: Remember Christian didn't claim Yahweh recites or dictate all the words in the Bible rather Yahweh uses His Holy Spirit to guide each one BUT as the writers were puting down their work they chose the style. I've answered sir.

Atleast the Holy spirit was working for yahweh to guide the writer right? which indirectly make yahweh responsible for every in the bible.. True or False

Emusan: Next time don't quote your OWN post when you need a reply.
I will sir.

Okay

Emusan: Firstly, Gen 1:26-27 you quoted above pose no problem for Christian because The Father was talking to the Son and the Holy Sprit. This indicate how a Holy book full of wisdom should be arranged. So this should tell you that Yahweh is a Trinity right from the Genesis.

First of all, we all know Jesus never teaches Trinity, neither was it taught by Moses and other Propehts in The OT, now if we to follow your assertion here "Are you saying Yahweh was talking to his Word Are you saying Yahweh was talking to his spirit The verse states that LET US CREATE MAN IN OUR OWN IMAGE Mr. Emusan Please can you say to your word and spirit that 'EMUSAN LET US PAINT A PORTRAIT'

Emusan: Secondly, see the way the writer concisely arranged his word by differentiating when God is talking in PLURALITY without shifting in grammatical expression this is how a knowledgeable God directs His writing not like that of QUR'AN

Lastly, the opening words in that verse is "And God said.." which implies that the narrator or the speaker has stopped talking only interjecting God's own word which is very clear.

And i asked you a question which you actually duldge, i said was the writer present when YAhweh was talking

Emusan: You're mistaken, the speaker or Narrator has already indicated who was talking by the phrase "So God.....in the image of GOD.... the narrator didn't say "I" "me" or using a plural pronouns 'We or Us' (which will indicate that the speaker is part of people who partakes in the creation of man like angel Jibril always does.
I challenge you to produce a clear verse like this in the Qur'an where the word of the speaker or narrator was well arranged without conflicting Allah's word or makes the speaker looks like many people were talking THIS MUST NOT include translator's insertion.
I believe this answer other post of yours.

Please who is the Narrator? Was he present when God was saying all this word

Emusan: @Rilwayne001

SAMPLE 1

Analysis of Moses encountered with Allah.

I'll insert my word in bracket.

So, when he(Moses) came to it, he(Moses) was called 'Blessed is he who is in the fire, and he who is about it. Glory be to God, the Lord of all Being! Moses, behold, it is I, God, the All-mighty, the All-wise.

From this surah many problems arise:
1) The underlined statement was already indicated that Moses was called by someone.
Then if Moses was called, who called Moses?

2) We see the narrator trying to made us know that another person is now talking which suppose to be Allah inside the burning bush.

3) The person who called Moses firstly praised him/herself with the statement "Blessed is he who is in the fire...."
NOTE: the HE in this phrase suppose to be referring to Allah BUT the question we must ask here is who is talking when the underlined statement "....who is in the fire" already made it clear that it's Allah that is actually in the fire?

4) The narrator still goes on to say "Glory be to GOD" remember after Moses was called by the one who is in the fire who supposedly to be Allah is when the conversation begins.

5) To tell you that this is purely wrong linguistic composition the narrator/writer finally identified Allah as the SPEAKER by this statement "Moses, behold it is I, God

Doesn't the same God first says "Blessed is he.......or....Glory be to God"? whose God Blessed or Glory be to?
Could it be Allah who later identified Itself as God again or angel Jibril who is narrating the story?

Definitely it could not be Jibril because MOSES was already called by the one in the fire.

So it is Allah who is praising Itself or another God.

Sample 2 is coming!

This is part of the OP, and i want to correct one deception in the OP which i will like you to affirm before addressing the rest

This particular post/question is a deception and a lie which the owner of this article tries to insert into the Quran, Ever since i have reading the Quran i have never come accross this so called Palmer translation. To expose the lie of Sam Shamoun here i noticed that in other question in the OP He uses other translations such as Shaki and Packtall but when it comes to This particular Question why didnt he Use Picthalll or Sahih

He didnt use it because he wanted to deceive the reader into believing that Allah prayed to someone. Do you Agrree that Sam shamoun is trying to deceive us here or not? Please answer this question or i wont continue this dialogue

I will be using five translations in countering your claim here

Emusan: 2) Whom did Allah pray to?
He it is who prays for you and His angels too, to bring you forth out of the darkness into the light, for He is merciful to the believers. S. 33:43 Palmer

Quran 33: 43
Sahih International
It is He who confers blessing upon you, and His angels [ask Him to do so] that He may bring you out from darknesses into the light. And ever is He, to the believers, Merciful.

Muhsin Khan
He it is Who sends Salat (His blessings) on you, and His angels too (ask Allah to bless and forgive you), that He may bring you out from darkness (of disbelief and polytheism) into light (of Belief and Islamic Monotheism). And He is Ever Most Merciful to the believers.

Pickthall
He it is Who blesseth you, and His angels (bless you), that He may bring you forth from darkness unto light; and He is ever Merciful to the believers.

Yusuf Ali
He it is Who sends blessings on you, as do His angels, that He may bring you out from the depths of Darkness into Light: and He is Full of Mercy to the Believers.

Shakir
He it is Who sends His blessings on you, and (so do) His angels, that He may bring you forth out of utter darkness into the light; and He is Merciful to the believers.

Emusan: Verily, God AND His angels pray for the prophet. O ye who believe! pray for him and salute him with a salutation! S. 33:56 Palmer

QUran 33:56
Sahih International
Indeed, Allah confers blessing upon the Prophet , and His angels [ask Him to do so]. O you who have believed, ask [ Allah to confer] blessing upon him and ask [ Allah to grant him] peace.

Muhsin Khan
Allah sends His Salat (Graces, Honours, Blessings, Mercy, etc.) on the Prophet (Muhammad SAW) and also His angels too (ask Allah to bless and forgive him). O you who believe! Send your Salat on (ask Allah to bless) him (Muhammad SAW), and (you should) greet (salute) him with the Islamic way of greeting (salutation i.e. AsSalamu 'Alaikum).

Pickthall
Lo! Allah and His angels shower blessings on the Prophet. O ye who believe! Ask blessings on him and salute him with a worthy salutation.

Yusuf Ali
Allah and His angels send blessings on the Prophet: O ye that believe! Send ye blessings on him, and salute him with all respect.

Shakir
Surely Allah and His angels bless the Prophet; O you who believe! call for (Divine) blessings on him and salute him with a (becoming) salutation.

Emusan: Prayer entails calling upon or supplicating someone who can hear you, which in the context of Islamic worship means invoking Allah:

Who is more unjust than one who invents a lie against Allah or rejects His Signs?

Now please answer the question i asked up there...Good night

Rilwayne001: This particular post/question is a deception and a lie which the owner of this article tries to insert into the Quran, Ever since i have reading the Quran i have never come accross this so called Palmer translation. To expose the lie of Sam Shamoun here i noticed that in other question in the OP He uses other translations such as Shaki and Packtall but when it comes to This particular Question why didnt he Use Picthalll or Sahih

He didnt use it because he wanted to deceive the reader into believing that Allah prayed to someone. Do you Agrree that Sam shamoun is trying to deceive us here or not? Please answer this question or i wont continue this dialogue

Muhsin Khan
He it is Who sends Salat (His blessings) on you, and His angels too (ask Allah to bless and forgive you), that He may bring you out from darkness (of disbelief and polytheism) into light (of Belief and Islamic Monotheism). And He is Ever Most Merciful to the believers.

Muhsin Khan
Allah sends His Salat (Graces, Honours, Blessings, Mercy, etc.) on the Prophet (Muhammad SAW) and also His angels too (ask Allah to bless and forgive him). O you who believe! Send your Salat on (ask Allah to bless) him (Muhammad SAW), and (you should) greet (salute) him with the Islamic way of greeting (salutation i.e. AsSalamu 'Alaikum).

Who is more unjust than one who invents a lie against Allah or rejects His Signs?
Now please answer the question i asked up there...Good night

Truly if one reads this translation and compare it with other translations one can say Sam Shamoun is being biased with his articles BUT does he being biased?
Absolutely No!
because Sam has dealt with the bias part of other translations like Y. Ali, Picthall e.t.c in translating the word SALAT as blessing in one article.

I'm still searching for the article once I get it I'll provide you the link to tell you that Sam never deceives his reader.

I purposely left only Mushin Khan's translation because it gives more evidence to Sam claim with the word SALAT that appears.

To you what is the meaning of SALAT?

This is how you will know that people like Yusuf Ali, Sahih try to cover up this obvious problem by rendering the word SALAT as Blessing not as Prayer.

Emusan:

Truly if one reads this translation and compare it with other translations one can say Sam Shamoun is being biased with his articles BUT does he being biased?
Absolutely No!
because Sam has dealt with the bias part of other translations like Y. Ali, Picthall e.t.c in translating the word SALAT as blessing in one article.

I'm still searching for the article once I get it I'll provide you the link to tell you that Sam never deceives his reader.

I purposely left only Mushin Khan's translation because it gives more evidence to Sam claim with the word SALAT that appears.

To you what is the meaning of SALAT?

This is how you will know that people like Yusuf Ali, Sahih try to cover up this obvious problem by rendering the word SALAT as Blessing not as Prayer.

I will reply you later tonight.


meanwhile, there is a lot to say on this

Rilwayne001: The Quran is clear in Arabic much more than the way it is in English since it was revealed in Arabic...thats my point..

If Qur'an is cleared in Arabic, does it mean it can be cleared in English?
Shouldn't the English translation suppose to be the exert Arabic words?

I showed you times in my post on this thread that The Quran is Allah's word which was conveyed to the prophet through Angel Jibril, and i said there is no way you will be conveying a message of your boss to a third party without you adding your own word to it, Angel jibril is just like a teacher teaching the prophet the word of God, Therefore both God and The angels word appeared in it (The angel acting like a teacher and Allah revealing himself in some part.

Qur'an is Allah's word yet you said it contains Jibril & Allah word at underlined statements.

I dont know if you get the point in the above verse.....It clearly stated here

Nothing clears brother.

The Quran is 100% Allah's word

Yet it contains Jibril's word according to you.

because i have already showed you the rank of Angel Gabriel,

So because of its rank that's why it recites confusion or used personal pronouns where It supposed to use it for Allah.

I showed you where the prophet affirm that he (jibril) is a guardian to him,

I can see where you missed this thread.
We aren't talking about who guides or providing guidance to Qur'an, we're talking about poor usage of simple pronouns where the types of pronouns are being used by the narrator.

also the prophet said Jubril is a teacher who taught him the word of God and the Quran was written according to how Jibril was conveying it to him...What else do you want?

What I want is you should grade Allah for Its wording arrangements & killing simple pronouns.

“indeed, the Qur’an is a word a NOBLE messenger. possessed of power and with the Owner of the Throne, secure .Obeyed there and trustworthy. And your companion is not mad.And he has already seen Gabriel in the clear horizon.” [Surah At-Takeover: 81:19-23]
Is it meaningless like this'

I'll use this surah as my sample 2.

Every single word of the bible is the word of Yahweh himself right?

Not every word in the Bible is the Word of God BUT every single word was written as God want it. You can differentiate when God is talking and when the writer is talking.

We have some case where the writer(s) use their own initiative i.e some historical event

Atleast the Holy spirit was working for Yahweh to guide the writer right? which indirectly make yahweh responsible for every word in the bible.. True or False

You're right that's why Christian believed that Bible is the word of God THOUGH not that Yahweh dictate all mouth to mouth BUT everything was written as He wants.

For instance, Yahweh corrected some Jeremiah's wrong view of previous revelation,
corrected Job about creation e.t.c BUT THEY WERE CARRIED ALONG BY HOLYSPIRIT that's why they're talking about one subject SALVATION in one man WHO is Jesus.

This will not move forward when you keep on dodging my explanations.


I will reply as soon as am with my computer later on tonight..

RRilwayne001: First of all, we all know Jesus never teaches Trinity, neither was it taught by Moses and other Propehts in The OT,

The issue at hand is not who teaches TRINITY or not BUT I only tell you what the Hebrew scriptures say.

now if we to follow your assertion here "Are you saying Yahweh was talking to his Word Are you saying Yahweh was talking to his spirit The verse states that LET US CREATE MAN IN OUR OWN IMAGE Mr. Emusan Please can you say to your word and spirit that 'EMUSAN LET US PAINT A PORTRAIT'

What you're bringing out here absolutely out it because we're not dealing with Trinity here. It left for you to decide BUT the TRUTH of the matter is Yahweh is multi personal and He uses plural pronouns to address His Godhead many time even Jesus did.

You can't compare this with Allah that supposes to be one entity yet always referring to Itself with plural pronouns.

It's left for you to tell me why Allah always use pronouns like 'I', 'me', Us', 'We', 'Him', 'He' e.t.c when It's not multi personal

And i asked you a question which you actually duldge, i said was the writer present when YAhweh was talking

You think I duldge your question but I didn't because I believe my explanation covers everything.

The writer wasn't present with Yahweh but the writer clearly distinguished his own word from Yahweh's word like in that Genesis 1:26 the first sentence is "And God said...." which shows that another person has entered the scene..in that case Yahweh has took over by saying "Let US...." the US wasn't including the writer.

Please this is simple English I won't repeat myself any more.

Please who is the Narrator? Was he present when God was saying all this word

Moses! He wasn't.
Get knowledge the writer has already excluded himself from the plural pronouns with the phrase "And God said..."

This phrase "And God said" or "Thus saith the Lord" or The Word of the Lord came to me, saying" are very rear/no where to be found in the Qur'an despite that Qur'an was narrated through a SECOND PERSON.

Rilwayne001: This will not move forward when you keep on dodging my explanations.

Your explanation is out of point that's why I didn't reply them.

What this thread is all about is the usage of plural pronouns, first person pronouns by the narrator within the same text, the poor wording arrangement of Qur'an and misplacing simple word.

I will reply as soon as am with my computer later on tonight..

Even all your post never makes any different than Internet congestion.

@Rilwayne001,

SAMPLE 2

“indeed, the Qur’an is a word a NOBLE messenger. possessed of power and with the Owner of the Throne, secure .Obeyed there and trustworthy. And your companion is not mad.And he has already seen Gabriel in the clear horizon.” [Surah At-Takweer: 81:19-23]

Now let's look at this surah and compare it with the translator's insertion.

If pay close attention to statement of this surah you've discovered that there's a grammatical conflict within the text.

1) The first sentence portray it as Quran is a messenger with the phrase "....is a word a NOBLE messenger" no clear distinction that's why the translator has to insert "[CONVEYED BY]" to bring out the meaning.

2) This phrase "possessed of power and with the owner of the throne" doesn't match each other and never compliment the previous statement that's why the translator has to inserted [Who is] which now placed Muhammad as the subject.
With the owner of the throne simply means it exist/stand along the whoever own the throne yet was Muhammad fits into that position?

3) The word 'secure' rendered the insertion word that made muhammad the subject useless because the translator gets confused so s/he inserted "[in position]"
Does Muhammad secure in position with Allah?

4) This next one is more perplexing, remember the translator has already placed Muhammad as the subject but see what this phrase says "Obeyed there [in the heavens]"

Can you see how insertion killed these verses.
Yet the original text doesn't favour either.

Who is being obeyed here in heaven Muhammad or Qur'an?

This is enough for you to digest.