Paul quotes Greek poet's praise to Zeus:
Act 17:28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
Tit 1:12 One of themselves, even a prophet of their own, said, The Cretians are alway liars, evil beasts, slow bellies.
Tit 1:13 This witness is true....

Let us begin with Zeus, whom we mortals never leave unspoken.
For every street, every market-place is full of Zeus.
Even the sea and the harbour are full of this deity.
Everywhere everyone is indebted to Zeus.
>>> For we are indeed his offspring... (Phaenomena 1-5) by Aratus
310 BC – 240 BC240 BC

Minos praises Zeus-
They fashioned a tomb for thee, O holy and high one--
>>>The Cretans, always liars, evil beasts, idle bellies!
But thou are not dead. Thou livest and abidest forever,
>>>For in thee we live and move and have our being.
Epimenides - "Cretica" 6th century BCE (?)

Don't know

You don't need to be original to make up a new fairytale - in fact it's probably better if you're not.

You need something that resonates with the audience so what could be better than a variation on a pre-existing tale?

scosco1: Paul quotes Greek poet's praise to Zeus:
Act 17:28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
Tit 1:12 One of themselves, even a prophet of their own, said, The Cretians are alway liars, evil beasts, slow bellies.
Tit 1:13 This witness is true....

Let us begin with Zeus, whom we mortals never leave unspoken.
For every street, every market-place is full of Zeus.
Even the sea and the harbour are full of this deity.
Everywhere everyone is indebted to Zeus.
>>> For we are indeed his offspring... (Phaenomena 1-5) by Aratus
310 BC – 240 BC240 BC

Minos praises Zeus-
They fashioned a tomb for thee, O holy and high one--
>>>The Cretans, always liars, evil beasts, idle bellies!
But thou are not dead. Thou livest and abidest forever,
>>>For in thee we live and move and have our being.
Epimenides - "Cretica" 6th century BCE (?)

Thanks for your vigilance.
I had always known that Paul was a fraud, these acts of plaguerism is just one more proof.

Paul also mimicked Apolonius of Tiara , a historical figure who would have been contemporary of Jesus. Apolonius of Tiara traveled, taught and did a lot of the things credited to Jesus.
When confronted with these facts, the early church fathers reasoned that the devil sent Apolonius of Tiara before Jesus to mimick Jesus in order to confused mankind.
Excellent logic, indeed!

plaetton:

Thanks for your vigilance.
I had always known that Paul was a fraud, these acts of plaguerism is just one more proof.

Paul also mimicked Apolonius of Tiara , a historical figure who would have been contemporary of Jesus. Apolonius of Tiara traveled, taught and did a lot of the things credited to Jesus.
When confronted with these facts, the early church fathers reasoned that the devil sent Apolonius of Tiara before Jesus to mimick Jesus in order to confused mankind.
Excellent logic, indeed!

let keep aside the issue of paul. Do you agree, jesus exist?

malvisguy212: let keep aside the issue of paul. Do you agree, jesus exist?

No evidence, zero, zilch, kpondo edivence whatsoever.

plaetton:

No evidence, zero, zilch, kpondo edivence whatsoever.

this is your actual statement
" When confronted with these facts, the
early church fathers reasoned that the
devil sent Apolonius of Tiara before Jesus to mimick Jesus in order to confused mankind."

Correct me please. Who is the jesus you are talkin about here? And again the historian put his name on the calendar i.e the B.C AND A.D.

malvisguy212: this is your actual statement
" When confronted with these facts, the
early church fathers reasoned that the
devil sent Apolonius of Tiara before Jesus to mimick Jesus in order to confused mankind."

Correct me please. Who is the jesus you are talkin about here? And again the historian put his name on the calendar i.e the B.C AND A.D.

You're trolling this thread.
Above lies evidence of plagiarism on the part of Paul. What do you have to say about that?

malvisguy212: this is your actual statement
" When confronted with these facts, the
early church fathers reasoned that the
devil sent Apolonius of Tiara before Jesus to mimick Jesus in order to confused mankind."

Correct me please. Who is the jesus you are talkin about here? And again the historian put his name on the calendar i.e the B.C AND A.D.

Yes, the early church fathers were confronted with the obvious similarly of the myth of Jesus with the historical life of Apolonius of Tiara.
My referring to Jesus does not confer historicity on him.

Now, which historian put his name on a calendar??

It is so unfortunate that you guys know sooooo little about the religion you profess.

Let me educate you a bit.
When Christianity became part of the holy roman empire, the emperors simply adopted the supposed birth of Jesus as the beginning of the calender years. First by Julian and then later by Gregory.

The fact that Rome chose an arbitrary year and date to begin the calender is in no way a proof that Jesus existed at all, nor that any historian recorded his life.

plaetton:

Yes, the early church fathers were confronted with the obvious similarly of the myth of Jesus with the historical life of Apolonius of Tiara.
My referring to Jesus does not confer historicity on him.

Now, which historian put his name on a calendar??

It is so unfortunate that you guys know sooooo little about the religion you profess.

Let me educate you a bit.
When Christianity became part of the holy roman empire, the emperors simply adopted the supposed birth of Jesus as the beginning of the calender years. First by Julian and then later by Gregory.

The fact that Rome chose an arbitrary year and date to begin the calender is in no way a proof that Jesus existed at all, nor that any historian recorded his life.

with what i'v experience in life and my encounter, I do not need a book to read if jesus exist,am contented with what i'v got.

So in your case now, the historian were wrong to name him after a calendar?this is the first time am hearing this.

Zikdik:
You're trolling this thread.
Above lies evidence of plagiarism on the part of Paul. What do you have to say about that?

all what the op write are the philosophy of men mix with wrong interpretation of the bible[seducing doctrine] they are all the enemy of christianity.

malvisguy212: with what i'v experience in life and my encounter, I do not need a book to read if jesus exist,am contented with what i'v got.

So in your case now, the historian were wrong to name him after a calendar?this is the first time am hearing this.

You keep saying "historian". Which historian are you talking about?.

I have already tried to enlighten you that the Julian and Gregorian calenders were put together and imposed by imperial fiats of the holy roman empire who had , much earlier on, adopted Jesus as their titular head.

Now, as far you believing in Jesus, by all means, feel free.

I believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster as the god of the universe, and that all the stars and planets are giant floating meatballs.
I believe that each time you eat a pasta, you are indirectly paying homage to FSM almighty, and that the righteous will inherit and enjoy the biggest spaghetti meatball for eternity.

malvisguy212: all what the op write are the philosophy of men mix with wrong interpretation of the bible[seducing doctrine] they are all the enemy of christianity.

Stop lying.

The op quoted paul verbatim. He did not interpret anything.

This is the usual escapist tactic of christians when faced with contradictory facts.

Kindly show us the wrong interpretations and then interpret it them correctly for us.

scosco1: Paul quotes Greek poet's praise to Zeus:
Act 17:28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
Tit 1:12 One of themselves, even a prophet of their own, said, The Cretians are alway liars, evil beasts, slow bellies.
Tit 1:13 This witness is true....

Let us begin with Zeus, whom we mortals never leave unspoken.
For every street, every market-place is full of Zeus.
Even the sea and the harbour are full of this deity.
Everywhere everyone is indebted to Zeus.
>>> For we are indeed his offspring... (Phaenomena 1-5) by Aratus
310 BC – 240 BC240 BC

Minos praises Zeus-
They fashioned a tomb for thee, O holy and high one--
>>>The Cretans, always liars, evil beasts, idle bellies!
But thou are not dead. Thou livest and abidest forever,
>>>For in thee we live and move and have our being.
Epimenides - "Cretica" 6th century BCE (?)

acts 17:22-31 Here we have a sermon to
heathens, who worshipped false gods,
and were without the true God in the
world; and to them the scope of the
discourse was different from what the
apostle preached to the Jews. In the latter case, his business was to lead his
hearers by prophecies and miracles to
the knowledge of the Redeemer, and
faith in him; in the former, it was to lead
them, by the common works of
providence, to know the Creator, and worship Him. The apostle spoke of an
altar he had seen, with the inscription,
TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. This fact is stated
by many writers. After multiplying their
idols to the utmost, some at Athens
thought there was another god of whom they had no knowledge. And are there
not many now called Christians, who are
zealous in their devotions, yet the great
object of their worship is to them an
unknown God? Observe what glorious
things Paul here says of that God whom he served, and would have them to
serve. The Lord had long borne with
idolatry, but the times of this ignorance
were now ending, and by his servants he
now commanded all men every where to
repent of their idolatry. Each sect of the learned men would feel themselves
powerfully affected by the apostle's
discourse, which tended to show the
emptiness or falsity of their doctrines.

malvisguy212: acts 17:22-31 Here we have a sermon to
heathens, who worshipped false gods,
and were without the true God in the
world; and to them the scope of the
discourse was different from what the
apostle preached to the Jews. In the latter case, his business was to lead his
hearers by prophecies and miracles to
the knowledge of the Redeemer, and
faith in him; in the former, it was to lead
them, by the common works of
providence, to know the Creator, and worship Him. The apostle spoke of an
altar he had seen, with the inscription,
TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. This fact is stated
by many writers. After multiplying their
idols to the utmost, some at Athens
thought there was another god of whom they had no knowledge. And are there
not many now called Christians, who are
zealous in their devotions, yet the great
object of their worship is to them an
unknown God? Observe what glorious
things Paul here says of that God whom he served, and would have them to
serve. The Lord had long borne with
idolatry, but the times of this ignorance
were now ending, and by his servants he
now commanded all men every where to
repent of their idolatry. Each sect of the learned men would feel themselves
powerfully affected by the apostle's
discourse, which tended to show the
emptiness or falsity of their doctrines.

What is all this babble above?
Pls , if you are doing cut and past, kindly acknowledge it and cite the source. the above is obviously not from you because it does not in any way address or refute the op.
I doubt whether you even understand what you have just cut and pasted above.

Cognitive dissonance is a terrible thing. It makes you christians behave in a bizaar fashion.

The op quotes passages written by paul, and then shows proof that Paul plaguerized ancient greek authors who were praising Zeus.
And then here you are all the over the place posting rubbish that does not address the alleged palguerism of Paul.

plaetton:


Thanks for your vigilance.
I had always known that Paul was a fraud, these acts of plaguerism is just one more proof.

Paul also mimicked Apolonius of Tiara , a historical figure who would have been contemporary of Jesus. Apolonius of Tiara traveled, taught and did a lot of the things credited to Jesus.
When confronted with these facts, the early church fathers reasoned that the devil sent Apolonius of Tiara before Jesus to mimick Jesus in order to confused mankind.
Excellent logic, indeed!

do you know the meaning of quoting?

So because Paul was a Christian, does that preclude him studying and making reference to other cultures and writings when preaching to people from that particular culture?

Are you aware he originally trained as a lawyer and Judaic priest ?

tpiah99:



do you know the meaning of quoting?

So because Paul was a Christian, does that preclude him studying and making reference to other cultures and writings when preaching to people from that particular culture?

Are you aware he originally trained as a lawyer and Judaic priest ?

Well my dear, there is a clear difference between quoting someone or making reference to someone, and , taking the verbatim words of thers as if they were your own. That is the issue here.

And while we are on the subject of quoting, it is also interesting that Paul never quoted the teachings of Jesus in any ofhis numerous writings.
This is quite easy to understand considering that Paul never met Jesus, nor was he ever privy to the original teachings of jesus.

Jesus quoted the Torah, Paul also quoted the Torah, same as the other apostles.

plaetton:


Well my dear, there is a clear difference between quoting someone or making reference to someone, and , taking the verbatim words of thers as if they were your own. That is the issue here.

And while we are on the subject of quoting, it is also interesting that Paul never quoted the teachings of Jesus in any ofhis numerous writings.
This is quite easy to understand considering that Paul never met Jesus, nor was he ever privy to the original teachings of jesus.

and all the gospels were yet to be written by the time paul supposedly preached which means all the myths about Jesus have not been worked..

tpiah99:
Jesus quoted the Torah, Paul also quoted the Torah, same as the other apostles.

Did paul quote any of the words written in the gospels that were allegedly spoken by Jesus?

@ scosco1:

Thanks for sharing this
<<I have no strength or motivation to verify it, but it raises no suspicions, so I'll file it away for now>>


I don't think that it changes anything though ...at least for me. This is the way I would think through this:
You rightly said that Paul quoted folks, and Paul confirms it by using these words:

Act 17:28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said , For we are also his offspring.
Tit 1:12 One of themselves even a prophet of their own , , said,......

I think that a more viable question you should ask is this:
For Paul to quote literature that refers to Zeus when talking about God, did he consider Zeus and God to be one and same?

My answer would be for you to consider if Allah, Osanobua, Oghene and Yahweh are same.

It's not a smooth answer

scosco1:
Paul quotes Greek poet's praise to Zeus:
Act 17:28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
Tit 1:12 One of themselves, even a prophet of their own, said, The Cretians are alway liars, evil beasts, slow bellies.
Tit 1:13 This witness is true....

Let us begin with Zeus, whom we mortals never leave unspoken.
For every street, every market-place is full of Zeus.
Even the sea and the harbour are full of this deity.
Everywhere everyone is indebted to Zeus.
>>> For we are indeed his offspring... (Phaenomena 1-5) by Aratus
310 BC – 240 BC240 BC

Minos praises Zeus-
They fashioned a tomb for thee, O holy and high one--
>>>The Cretans, always liars, evil beasts, idle bellies!
But thou are not dead. Thou livest and abidest forever,
>>>For in thee we live and move and have our being.
Epimenides - "Cretica" 6th century BCE (?)

Of course, Paul quoted their poet. What's wrong with that? haba nairalanders self.

In preaching to people, its often good to quote the writeup they value its authority to make your point. such literary work may have been popular among them there.

Are you knowing this for the first time?

I wonder what you want to make out of it!

plaetton:


Well my dear, there is a clear difference between quoting someone or making reference to someone, and , taking the verbatim words of thers as if they were your own. That is the issue here.

And while we are on the subject of quoting, it is also interesting that Paul never quoted the teachings of Jesus in any ofhis numerous writings.
This is quite easy to understand considering that Paul never met Jesus, nor was he ever privy to the original teachings of jesus.

Like seriously? the bold face. Make una dey talk true abeg.

If a poem is popular, is it strange that someone can quote part of it verbatim?

JMAN05:


Like seriously? the bold face. Make una dey talk true abeg.

If a poem is popular, is it strange that someone can quote part of it verbatim?

Lol.

So it's ok and perfectly normal for Paul, the founder of Christianity, to public recite ,verbatim , a popular poem in praise of Zeus, the foremost of the pagan Greek gods

So it would be s similarly ok for Pauline MOGs like Adeboye or Oyedepo to recite, in the pulpit, popular poems in praise of Yoruba gods?
You don't see a problem with that??
OK.

This is what happens when you argue aimlessly, without even knowing what you are arguing for or against.

plaetton:

Lol.

So it's ok and perfectly normal for Paul, the founder of Christianity, to public recite ,verbatim , a popular poem in praise of Zeus, the foremost of the pagan Greek gods

So it would be s similarly ok for Pauline MOGs like Adeboye or Oyedepo to recite, in the pulpit, popular poems in praise of Yoruba gods?
You don't see a problem with that??
OK.

This is what happens when you argue aimlessly, without even knowing what you are arguing for or against.

how is Paul a founder of Christianity? Can a follower anoint the founder? If you want to prove atheists are morally good without God then you should not be bias in your argument.

plaetton:


...So it's ok and perfectly normal for Paul, the founder of Christianity, to public recite ,verbatim , a popular poem in praise of Zeus, the foremost of the pagan Greek gods

So it would be s similarly ok for Pauline MOGs like Adeboye or Oyedepo to recite, in the pulpit, popular poems in praise of Yoruba gods?
You don't see a problem with that??
OK.
...

lol Plaetton
by now u suppose know say we for this side get the way we they argue. U see the response wen dem give u

If you asked me the question, I'd approach it this way
You Plaetton try to imagine that a Christian God does exist ( I am confident he does, but that is not the point here)

Now we as Christians have diverse ideas of what we think that he wants and how to go about satisfying it
Someone that thinks/believes/knows that all God wants is to get people to a point were God can insert something in them -born again/new creation
would have no qualms in going to a city, identifying what drives them (Zeus in this case) and then presenting the christian God to them as Zeus or Allah, Oghene etc
When this has softened the peoples hearts, he might then start introducing them to the concept of God has he knows him and then gradually start pointing to the similarity in character, their books and mentions in their books that suggests God as he knows him
Finally this evangelist will get them to a point were God can step in and make a new creation out of the people


Another Christian that thinks/believes in God as a consuming fire who is interested in burning the erring in hell would dare not draw inferences between the Christian God and any other.

So Plaetton, the kind of response you'll get from us is mixed and the kind of length we can go is diverse
It depends on what we perceive of God's desire

I've read a book by a Christian who while saying gambling was a sin says he felt lead to go and gamble
he did and went about preaching to those he was gambling with, and they were able to accept him more easily

....call us crazy...na so we be

scosco1:
Paul quotes Greek poet's praise to Zeus:
Act 17:28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
Tit 1:12 One of themselves, even a prophet of their own, said, The Cretians are alway liars, evil beasts, slow bellies.
Tit 1:13 This witness is true....

Let us begin with Zeus, whom we mortals never leave unspoken.
For every street, every market-place is full of Zeus.
Even the sea and the harbour are full of this deity.
Everywhere everyone is indebted to Zeus.
>>> For we are indeed his offspring... (Phaenomena 1-5) by Aratus
310 BC – 240 BC240 BC

Minos praises Zeus-
They fashioned a tomb for thee, O holy and high one--
>>>The Cretans, always liars, evil beasts, idle bellies!
But thou are not dead. Thou livest and abidest forever,
>>>For in thee we live and move and have our being.
Epimenides - "Cretica" 6th century BCE (?)

scosco1 clap for yourself. Look at how you stated your words as if you have discovered anything new or strange.

For other peoples benefit, when Paul was making those two statements, he clearly said they were other people's words. And Paul used them in such a way that it was acceptable and inline with true teachings.

(1) the first quote: here Apostle Paul was addressing an audience of philosophers Acts 17:22,23 says: "Paul now stood in the midst of the Areopagus and said: 'Men of Athens, I see that in all things you seem to be more given to the fear of the deities than others are. For instance, while passing along and carefully observing your objects of veneration, I found even an altar on which had been inscribed 'To an Unknown God.' Therefore, what you are unknowingly worshipping, this I am declaring to you.'" Then Paul continued on verse 28 "For by him we have life and move and exist," then he credited his words to the poets saying: "even as some of your own poets have said, 'For we are also his children'. Notice here that Paul wasn't talking about Zeus but he ascribed those words to "an Unknown God".
Clearly, it was as if Paul was telling them 'listen to me, I can teach you because this God that is "Unknown" to you, I know Him'.

(2) the second quote: here the Apostle Paul was addressing the responsible Christian man Titus. He was warning him about some certain men in the Christian Congregaion in Crete. Paul did not consider these ones as Christians because they were contradicting the healthful Christian teachings(verses 9-11). Then Paul buttress his point to Titus by quoting one of the prophets of the Cretan people saying: "A certain one of them, their own prophet, said: 'Cretans are always liars, injurious wild beasts, idle gluttons."

So in these two instances, Paul clearly indicated he was quoting other people's statements. And he made good points with them. When we found this type of information from outside sources, we are even the more convinced that the Bible is historically accurate, authentic and authoritative, rather than otherwise.

Its like this.

Yoruba christians call Jesus "Olorun" (owner or maker of the heavens). But do you know that the name "Olorun" predates christianity in Nigeria. It was a common title every worshipper gave to their false gods. Those who worship Osun call it Olorun, those who worship Ogun or Obatala call it Olorun.

Now if christians now call Jesus "Olorun"; are we calling Jesus the name and title of false gods? Of course not. To a believer, Osun, Ogun, Obatala etc are "no gods", they were never "Olorun" (owner or maker of the heavens). It was always Jesus.

In idol worshipping communities; people come up with titles and songs of praises to their false gods; and composed poems, giving the adulages and attributes of the true God to their "no gods". Calling false gods their life giver, sustainer etc

If I go to such communities to preach the gospel to them, and I take a line or two from their poems or songs. It is to use it to introduce them to Jesus -the one who truly defines the attributes in their songs.

To Paul, zeus is "no god". So if he takes a line or two from a poem composed by a zeus-worshipper to praise zeus, and Paul uses the line to introduce them to Jesus, the one that those adulations and attritubes truly define. There is nothing wrong with that.

To Paul, we were never offsprings of zeus, neither did we live and move and have our beings in zeus -because zeus is a no god. People just composed poems and gave the attributes of the true God to zues -a no god.

When Paul went to that community, He took a line from their poem to introduce them to Jesus. The one of whom we are truly offsprings and the one in whom we truly live and move and have our being.

Using a line of praises in the poem of an idol worshipper to introduce them to the one who truly owns and defines those praises is nothing wrong.

You really would need to be stretching to find fault with it.

plaetton:

Lol.

So it's ok and perfectly normal for Paul, the founder of Christianity, to public recite ,verbatim , a popular poem in praise of Zeus, the foremost of the pagan Greek gods

So it would be s similarly ok for Pauline MOGs like Adeboye or Oyedepo to recite, in the pulpit, popular poems in praise of Yoruba gods?
You don't see a problem with that??
OK.

This is what happens when you argue aimlessly, without even knowing what you are arguing for or against.

When you want to prove a point, there is nothing wrong if a christian quote such. As far as you are not advocating for your congregation to adopt that worship. its fine when you quote it to lift a point.

there could be different reason for such quotation.

one can quote to show the foolishness of a religion or use it to convince the pagans of the truth found in God's word. that is, when the point you lift is in agreement with the scriptures. Since that is an authority those pagans hold in high regard, the effect could be powerful.

that's normal, if I quote statements of known atheists which supports the bible message, its effect on an atheist will be more convincing than when you use the bible.

Imagine when he tells those pagans that even the song they respect convey the message of progeny. do they need more argument for them to believe? that one will sink easily.

any Christian who thinks it is wrong to do so is being over righteous.

ayoku777:
Its like this.

Yoruba christians call Jesus "Olorun" (owner or maker of the heavens). But do you know that the name "Olorun" predates christianity in Nigeria. It was a common title every worshipper gave to their false gods. Those who worship Osun call it Olorun, those who worship Ogun or Obatala call it Olorun.

Now if christians now call Jesus "Olorun"; are we calling Jesus the name and title of false gods? Of course not. To a believer, Osun, Ogun, Obatala etc are "no gods", they were never "Olorun" (owner or maker of the heavens). It was always Jesus.

In idol worshipping communities; people come up with titles and songs of praises to their false gods; and composed poems, giving the adulages and attributes of the true God to their "no gods". Calling false gods their life giver, sustainer etc

If I go to such communities to preach the gospel to them, and I take a line or two from their poems or songs. It is to use it to introduce them to Jesus -the one who truly defines the attributes in their songs.

To Paul, zeus is "no god". So if he takes a line or two from a poem composed by a zeus-worshipper to praise zeus, and Paul uses the line to introduce them to Jesus, the one that those adulations and attritubes truly define. There is nothing wrong with that.

To Paul, we were never offsprings of zeus, neither did we live and move and have our beings in zeus -because zeus is a no god. People just composed poems and gave the attributes of the true God to zues -a no god.

When Paul went to that community, He took a line from their poem to introduce them to Jesus. The one of whom we are truly offsprings and the one in whom we truly live and move and have our being.

Using a line of praises in the poem of an idol worshipper to introduce them to the one who truly owns and defines those praises is nothing wrong.

You really would need to be stretching to find fault with it.

just imagen, there are over 10,000 gods and many predateing christainity but u insiste only ur own is correct, chai.

Jameselias:
just imagen, there are over 10,000 gods and many predateing christainity but u insiste only ur own is correct, chai.

@Jameselias, so Mister, if there are "over 10,000 gods", and all of them should be accepted as "correct", please tell us: how do we treat, or honour, or worship all of them? And where there are usually claim by their followers that their own is the Creator of life and the deserved Director for the right Living, how do we decipher the true one?

Pls Jameselias don't run from this question. Just Don't Run