You are actually deviating from my initial topic o, but lemme oblige you. We have been through this circular arguments since 2013, am afraid if God by himself doesn't convince you through scripture no one can.

shdemidemi:


Sincerity my brother.. Do all speak in tongues?

Yes.

Don't hold this verse in isolation. What was the purpose for this chapter or the book as a whole?

I am not holding it in isolation, you are the guy guilty of that.

There was contention, rivalry and show of flashy gifts within the church, Paul did not write to them to teach them tongues or teach them how to edify self. He was actually teaching unity in speech and charity/love for the edification of the body.

To learn what Paul is talking about in First Corinthians 12:30, ". . . do all speak with tongues? .. ." you must read the entire context in First Corinthians chapter 12.

He also discouraged any tongue speaking if there is no gifted interpreter....do you have interpreters in your church?

Like i said earlier and am tired of saying it. Ministry gifts which is for the church edification is different from devotional gift which is for self edification. The same Paul concluded the chapter by saying no one should forbid speaking in tongues.( 1 cor 14:39).

Bidam:


To learn what Paul is talking about in First Corinthians 12:30, ". . . do all speak with tongues? .. ." you must read the entire context in First Corinthians chapter 12.

What is the context my dear friend?

Bidam:

Like i said earlier and am tired of saying it. Ministry gifts which is for the church edification is different from devotional gift which is for self edification. The same Paul concluded the chapter by saying no one should forbid speaking in tongues.( 1 cor 14:39).

Whatever you choose to call the gifts really does not matter, all that matter is the purpose for the gift.

Are you sure there is room for a teaching of self edification within the faith?

If it is for self, it is no more christianity under the dispensation of the grace of God my friend. Please show me any other self edifying teaching within the christian doctrine. Jesus said if we do not hate self we are not fit to be disciples. The 'self' you try to edify is the exact sin nature, He is the enemy that needs to be mortified.

Do you not know that you are a bond servant (check what it means to be a bond servant) called to serve God. A true servant has no agenda, he does what is required by his master without questions. Self aggrandising/ self serving doctrine is false, it is another gospel.

Bidam:
Yes, as long as they don't run greedily after the error of balaam for profit and stay in line with scriptures they are genuine.

Show me a prophet that dont run greedily after the errors of balaam.

shdemidemi:

What is the context my dear friend?



Whatever you choose to call the gifts really does not matter, all that matter is the purpose for the gift.

Are you sure there is room for a teaching of self edification within the faith?

If it is for self, it is no more christianity under the dispensation of the grace of God my friend. Please show me any other self edifying teaching within the christian doctrine. Jesus said if we do not hate self we are not fit to be disciples. The 'self' you try to edify is the exact sin nature, He is the enemy that needs to be mortified.

Do you not know that you are a bond servant (check what it means to be a bond servant) called to serve God. A true servant has no agenda, he does what is required by his master without questions. Self aggrandising/ self serving doctrine is false, it is another gospel.

I am afraid you are going off the purpose of the thread and delving into irrelevances. If you have any issues on tongues create another thread please. I am tired of off points remarks and under handed tactics here that adds no value to the topic of the discuss.

ichuka:

Show me a prophet that dont run greedily after the errors of balaam.

Agabus is one of them. Do you want more?

Bidam:
I am afraid you are going off the purpose of the thread and delving into irrelevances. If you have any issues on tongues create another thread please. I am tired of off points remarks and under handed tactics here that adds no value to the topic of the discuss.

No, no no, I am right on course bro. We are talking spiritual privileges from God to man. The office of a prophet means he gets divine subjective information from God. There is none of such today, we all depend on the complete, inherent and sealed Word of God today.

P.S Such office was relevant at Paul's time because there was no bible as we have it today.

shdemidemi:


No, no no, I am right on course bro. We are talking spiritual privileges from God to man. The office of a prophet means he gets divine subjective information from God. There is none of such today, we all depend on the complete, inherent and sealed Word of God today.

P.S Such office was relevant at Paul's time because there was no bible as we have it today.

Good, read Ephesians 4 again. Has the Church attain perfection yet?

Bidam:
Good, read Ephesians 4 again. Has the Church attain perfection yet?

Now, what does the word 'perfection' mean?

shdemidemi:


Now, what does the word 'perfection' mean?

You tell me. Has the Church attain perfection yet according to Eph 4?

Bidam:
You tell me. Has the Church attain perfection yet according to Eph 4?

We shouldn't put the cart before the horse. We must be clear with the definition of the word 'perfection' before delving into where we are as a body. Do you agree?

shdemidemi:


We shouldn't put the cart before the horse. We must be clear with the definition of the word 'perfection' before delving into where we are as a body. Do you agree?

You tell me. Has the Church attain perfection yet according to Eph 4?

Bidam:
You tell me. Has the Church attain perfection yet according to Eph 4?

Why avoid questions my friend, would you rather clutch unto lies?

shdemidemi:


Why avoid questions my friend, would you rather clutch unto lies?

Stop being unreasonable and clever. I asked you this question first. Instead of answering as typical of your schemes, you started deviating with adhominem. Has the church attain PERFECTION according to Eph 4? ANSWER me first then we can continue.

Bidam:
Stop being unreasonable and clever. I asked you this question first. Instead of answering as typical of your schemes, you started deviating with adhominem. Has the church attain PERFECTION according to Eph 4? ANSWER me first then we can continue.

I will oblige you then. We have reached perfection.

Now can you please tell us what you understand by 'perfection'.

shdemidemi:


I will oblige you then. We have reached perfection.

Lol, I understand in order to defend your fraudulent cessation theory despite the fact that this theory is fraught with deficiencies and does not find authenticity in the Scriptures especially Eph 4.

Now can you please tell us me what you understand by 'perfection'.

For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:



Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary

12. For—with a view to; the ultimate aim. "Unto."

perfecting—The Greek implies correcting in all that is deficient, instructing and completing in number and all parts.

for—a different Greek word; the immediate object. Compare Ro 15:2, "Let every one … please his neighbor for his good unto edification."

the ministry—Greek, "ministration"; without the article. The office of the ministry is stated in this verse. The good aimed at in respect to the Church (Eph 4:13). The way of growth (Eph 4:14-16).

edifying—that is, building up as the temple of the Holy Ghost.
http://biblehub.com/ephesians/4-12.htm

Hebrews 2:3-4 English Standard Version (ESV)
3 how shall we escape if we neglect such a great salvation? It was declared at first by the Lord, and it was attested to us by those who heard, 4 while God also bore witness by signs and wonders and various miracles and by gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will.

Many years back I recall a Jehovah's Witness arguing from this verse that the author depicts the gifts as historical and as witnesses to the gospel and how now that we have the gospel, we are 'safe', we don't need the gifts. I fell for it until I went to Acts and discovered gifts operating in normal believers and not just apostles.

Cessation movement are basically arguing from silence; they don't see the gift(s) so they conclude and dig very hard to 'prove' that the gifts don't exist. While much has been accomplished throughout Christendom in absence of spiritual gifts- think Calvin,Luther, Bible translation and even missionaries to Africa and nether-lands, I find they still have their place.

THe problem is that of extremism. On one side we have ministers out to beat Elijah or even Jesus at manifesting the Holy Spirit, on the other end we have believers firmly convinced that gifts are demonic

Bidam my broda to answer your question, whatever role you assign a NT prophet is greatly diminished as compared to OT.

@vooks

Do you believe spiritual office asides pastor/teacher and evangelist still exist today?

Do you believe in speaking in tongues?

Bidam:
Lol, I understand in order to defend your fraudulent cessation theory despite the fact that this theory is fraught with deficiencies and does not find authenticity in the Scriptures especially Eph 4.


For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:



Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary

12. For—with a view to; the ultimate aim. "Unto."

perfecting—The Greek implies correcting in all that is deficient, instructing and completing in number and all parts.

for—a different Greek word; the immediate object. Compare Ro 15:2, "Let every one … please his neighbor for his good unto edification."

the ministry—Greek, "ministration"; without the article. The office of the ministry is stated in this verse. The good aimed at in respect to the Church (Eph 4:13). The way of growth (Eph 4:14-16).

edifying—that is, building up as the temple of the Holy Ghost.
http://biblehub.com/ephesians/4-12.htm

guy ...You never ready to open your mind to learn. When you are your approach to biblical discussions will change.

Define perfect, you are there defending something you think you can't let go off.

shdemidemi:


guy ...You never ready to open your mind to learn. When you are your approach to biblical discussions will change.

Define perfect, you are there defending something you think you can't let go off.

Go siddon. mr cessationist. You no get talk.

Bidam:
Go siddon. mr cessationist. You no get talk.

na fight! open your mind my continuationist brother.

What is 'perfect' na?

I have yet to form a strong opinion on existence of these offices, and my biggest reason is there is much strain in defining or distinguishing these offices from the scriptures. A healthy dose of imagination is required. We can only authoritatively talk of APOSTLES being the witnesses of resurrection. Of course the obvious difficulty of a modern apostle is circumvented by arbitrary splitting of hairs; you have 'foundational' apostles and the rest.

Can you tell me who were the first century prophets, evangelists,apostles ( other than the 12)? What about the second to 18th century?

I believe in the gift of tongues and interpretation of the same. But there are far fewer interpreters I have met in all my life in Christ. I received Christ one evening and the next day when I went to pray I prayed in tongues. I have trained new believers on the import of baptism of Holy Spirit, prayed for them and watched them pray in tongues.

shdemidemi:
@vooks

Do you believe spiritual office asides pastor/teacher and evangelist still exist today?

Do you believe in speaking in tongues?

shdemidemi:


na fight! open your mind my continuationist brother.

What is 'perfect' na?

Is the church perfect? Is the church unified? What are the five governmental offices Jesus instituted in the church when He ascended? Are they extinct according to Eph4?

Bidam my brother,

1. Name at least one prophet, apostle,evangelist,teacher.... of the primitive Church.
2. Repeat the same for the next consecutive 19 centuries
3. Who were the apostles of the Reformation?
4. Repeat 1. for the present church

Bidam:
Is the church perfect? Is the church unified? What are the five governmental offices Jesus instituted in the church when He ascended? Are they extinct according to Eph4?

Could pls answer the questions?

vooks:
Bidam my brother,

1. Name at least one prophet, apostle,evangelist,teacher.... of the primitive Church.
2. Repeat the same for the next consecutive 19 centuries
3. Who were the apostles of the Reformation?
4. Repeat 1. for the present church

I don't know of any my brother.
I only know of the twelve apostles and Paul, Philip the Evangelist and nothing else. If you know of others, please find it in your kind heart to share with vooks

Bidam:
Could pls answer the questions?

Bidam:
Is the church perfect? Is the church unified? What are the five governmental offices Jesus instituted in the church when He ascended? Are they extinct according to Eph4?

What do you understand by the word [size=24pt]'perfect'[/size] as used in that verse?

vooks:
I have yet to form a strong opinion on existence of these offices, and my biggest reason is there is much strain in defining or distinguishing these offices from the scriptures. A healthy dose of imagination is required. We can only authoritatively talk of APOSTLES being the witnesses of resurrection. Of course the obvious difficulty of a modern apostle is circumvented by arbitrary splitting of hairs; you have 'foundational' apostles and the rest.

I believe aside the major apostles sent forth by Christ, anyone sent by the church could be loosely called an apostle. Barnabas, Epaphroditus and a few other brethren were also called apostles. I believe Apostles were higher placed than the evangelist, the former were more of an authority although both office were nomadic in nature. The Apostles also had signs that followed them, which were not necessarily so with the evangelist.
2 cor 12
12 Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds.

vooks:

Can you tell me who were the first century prophets, evangelists,apostles ( other than the 12)? What about the second to 18th century?.

I have mentioned two 'church apostles' up there. No, I don't know of any nor regard any as apostle from the 2nd-18th century.

vooks:

I believe in the gift of tongues and interpretation of the same. But there are far fewer interpreters I have met in all my life in Christ. I received Christ one evening and the next day when I went to pray I prayed in tongues. I have trained new believers on the import of baptism of Holy Spirit, prayed for them and watched them pray in tongues.

What was the purpose for tongues in Acts 2?

Let me ask, is the purpose of tongues in Acts different from say Pauline epistles?
If you want to learn about anything, you need the collective revelation on the same contained in ALL verses that talk about it. So there is nothing like 'purpose of tongues in Acts' but the purpose of tongues in the scriptures

shdemidemi:


I believe aside the major apostles sent forth by Christ, anyone sent by the church could be loosely called an apostle. Barnabas, Epaphroditus and a few other brethren were also called apostles. I believe Apostles were higher placed than the evangelist, the former were more of an authority although both office were nomadic in nature.


I have mentioned two 'church apostles' up there. No, I don't know of any nor regard any as apostle from the 2nd-18th century.


What was the purpose for tongues in Acts 2?

vooks:
Let me ask, is the purpose of tongues in Acts different from say Pauline epistles?
If you want to learn about anything, you need the collective revelation on the same contained in ALL verses that talk about it. So there is nothing like 'purpose of tongues in Acts' but the purpose of tongues in the scriptures

I asked for the purpose of tongues at the time it was first initiated so we could compare it to what happened or what became the norm in the church in Corinth.

I think we both need to be on common ground as to why Paul wrote to the Corinth church. They were a carnal church, they were the worse church of all the churches Paul wrote to, he spoke to them as carnal as well. The present contemporary churches today draw semblance with the Corinth church.

So we must understand what tongues were initiated for in the book of Acts and how this church actually displayed it to be. Now, please say the purpose for tongues at Jerusalem.

So you want me to restrict my response to tongues in Acts? This is insincere for the obvious;
1. Acts overlap with Corinthians
2. Regardless of the circumstances that ocassioned Corinthians, it is inspired and as much a source of doctrine as Acts
3. But for Corinthians you would NEVER know about interpreting of tongues

The purpose of tongues is glorifying God that is from the ONLY instance tongues are understood.

Acts 2:11 (KJV) Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God

shdemidemi:


I asked for the purpose of tongues at the time it was first initiated so we could compare it to what happened or what became the norm in the church in Corinth.

I think we both need to be on common ground as to why Paul wrote to the Corinth church. They were a carnal church, they were the worse church of all the churches Paul wrote to, he spoke to them as carnal as well. The present contemporary churches today draw semblance with the Corinth church.

So we must understand what tongues were initiated for in the book of Acts and how this church actually displayed it to be. Now, please say the purpose for tongues at Jerusalem.

vooks:
So you want me to restrict my response to tongues in Acts? This is insincere for the obvious;
1. Acts overlap with Corinthians
2. Regardless of the circumstances that ocassioned Corinthians, it is inspired and as much a source of doctrine as Acts
3. But for Corinthians you would NEVER know about interpreting of tongues

The purpose of tongues is glorifying God that is from the ONLY instance tongues are understood.

Acts 2:11 (KJV) Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God

Please have it behind your mind that I have nothing against your beliefs and I am not in no way saying you must accept what I say.

1)The book of Acts is not an overlap to the letter to the corinthian church. the letter to the church in Corinth is a correctional letter to the book of Romans(doctrinal).

2)Like I said above, the book is a correctional book to a misapplication to the book of Romans. We must be very careful and not randomly pick doctrines from this book. Paul was addressing a carnal church, remember.

Romans, Ephesians, 1 thessalonians, 2 thessalonians represent our major doctrinal books. The other books like Galatians, Phillipians and Colosians were doctrinal corrections while 1st and 2nd corinthians were application correction.

3) True.

vooks:
The purpose of tongues is glorifying God that is from the ONLY instance tongues are understood.

The purpose for tongues was to speak forth God's message to people who do not understand the innate language of the disciples.

shdemidemi:


What do you understand by the word [size=24pt]'perfect'[/size] as used in that verse?

re you blind or did you miss it in the biblehub commentary i quoted?

HERE:perfecting—The Greek implies correcting in all that is deficient, instructing and completing in number and all parts.
. I initially asked you whether the church is perfect first and you said YES. So check well again, is it perfect in that verse?