paulGrundy:


But the JW's claim that only their religion is true way.

I knw, but we are not argueing after their claim here.

Ukutsgp:
u mean their doctrines or what the bible teaches? is that doctrine in the bible?

Is there any place where the bible condemned anyone who didnt sing the anthem of his country. Even though the bible said we shld submit to our govt, our govt didnt make it an order that everyone must have to sing the anthem. So deal with it.

AltarBoy1:
Is there any place where the bible condemned anyone who didnt sing the anthem of his country. Even though the bible said we shld submit to our govt, our govt didnt make it an order that everyone must have to sing the anthem. So deal with it.

Bible enjoins us to obey constituted authorities. Period.

dein77:


Bible enjoins us to obey constituted authorities. Period.

show where the constitution says it a must for all to recite the anthem.

AltarBoy1:
show where the constitution says it a must for all to recite the anthem.

do u think the national anthem is not part of the civic duties of the citizens of this country? don't the leaders of this land recognised the national anthem? pls just tell me if singing it is a sin.

Cutehector4u:
is the national anthem a song of praise? Why r dey acting stupidly.... Arise o compatriots.. Does dat mean that they are villains? Nigeria's call obey.... The lord says we should obey the constituted authorities... To serve our fatherland.. Their youths should be exempted from nysc too..why r dey joining their other religious youths for nysc.... With love and strength and faith.. Thy labours of our heroes past shall never be in vain... To serve with heart and mind.... One nation bound in freedom, peace and unity... Am very sure they think nigeria is not bound in freedom, peace and unity so they should go create their own country... Nonsense

You really give out your right, when you don't exercise your freedom of speech, either to remain silent or speak, the US call this the fourth amendement.
In the pledge, which is the progeny of anthem. You said before men, To serve Nigeria with all your strength, if you do so, will you not be disobeying Christ, Who commanded that We should serve God with all your strength? Hence can you serve two masters.
Jehovah's witnessess are highly respected by government officials, because they honestly pay their taxes and dues, But its unfortunate and sad, that those who sing the anthem and recite the pledge loot the public tresuary at whim.
Jehovah's witnessess is the highest practicing religion in Italy, the background of pope, Japan, USA, if the fragmented baptist churches excluded as not one body, Canada' Mexico, Brazil, Germany, their praises had been extolled by the great Zik,
No human force can destroy them as a group, When other religious bodies cower under the tyrannic regime of Adolf Hitler, and Benito Mussulino, Its on historical record, that ONLY Jehovah's witnesses stood firm to death, NOT to say Hail Hitler.
These coward acts by hypocritical clergymen and women, lead to catholics killing catholics, Anglicans killing Anglican, verse versa, Muslims killing Muslims, Hindus, budhist, methodist, and fragments of atheists, pagans, etc, just hailling Hitler as savior of the world.Here in Nigeria many of them will buried or shot to death, because the refused to join the army, especially in biafra held area.
My observation here, in this thread showed that, youngsters are just repeating along the road from school tales

indigene:


You really give out your right, when you don't exercise your freedom of speech, either to remain silent or speak, the US call this the fourth amendement.
In the pledge, which is the progeny of anthem. You said before men, To serve Nigeria with all your strength, if you do so, will you not be disobeying Christ, Who commanded that We should serve God with all your strength? Hence can you serve two masters.
Jehovah's witnessess are highly respected by government officials, because they honestly pay their taxes and dues, But its unfortunate and sad, that those who sing the anthem and recite the pledge loot the public tresuary at whim.
Jehovah's witnessess is the highest practicing religion in Italy, the background of pope, Japan, USA, if the fragmented baptist churches excluded as not one body, Canada' Mexico, Brazil, Germany, their praises had been extolled by the great Zik,
No human force can destroy them as a group, When other religious bodies cower under the tyrannic regime of Adolf Hitler, and Benito Mussulino, Its on historical record, that ONLY Jehovsh's witnesses stood firm to death or to live.
These coward acts by hypocritical clergymen and women, lead to catholics killing catholics, Anglicans killing Anglican, verse versa, Muslims killing Muslims, Hindus, budhist, methodist, and fragments of atheists, pagans, etc, just hailling Hitler as savior of the world

what is this one sayin...my dear, if u dnt like it, pls go and form ur country..i will not repeat myself again

Ukutsgp:
why is it that the Jehovah Witness don't sing the national anthem? they keep mute when others are singing it. what are their reasons for that?

You pledge to Nigeria your country to be faithful loyal and honest. to serve Nigerian with all your strength, to defend her unity and uphold her honor and glory. Then you expect God to also help you.

Luk 10:27

In answer he said: “‘You must love Jehovah your God with your whole heart and with your whole soul and with your whole strength and with your whole mind’ and ‘your neighbor as yourself."

Can you make such a vow and still claim to be serving God? You have made a vow to serve your land with all your strength, and uphold her honor and glory. To also serve with faithfulness and honesty. Nothing is wrong with faithfulness, however, what will you do if the constitution of your land demands you do something against God's laws? Will you serve your country with faithfulness? Remember what you vow, you will pay.

The early Christians could not conscientiously participate in the patriotic rites of the Roman Empire. In commenting on the matter, The Book of Culture says: “The Christians, however, strong in their faith, would take no such oath of loyalty. And because they did not swear allegiance to what we would to-day consider as analogous to the Flag, they were considered politically dangerous.”

Saluting the Flag:

Are national flags simply signs serving some utilitarian function? What do they symbolize? “Nationalism’s chief symbol of faith and central object of worship is the flag,” stated author J. Paul Williams. The Encyclopedia Americana says: “The flag, like the cross, is sacred.” The flag is the symbol of the State. Therefore, bowing down to it or saluting it is a religious ceremony that gives reverence to the State. Such an act ascribes salvation to the State and does not harmonize with what the Bible says about idolatry.

The Scriptures clearly state: “Salvation belongs to Jehovah.” (Psalm 3: Salvation is not to be ascribed to human institutions or their symbols. The apostle Paul admonished fellow Christians: “My beloved ones, flee from idolatry.” (1 Corinthians 10:14) The early Christians did not participate in acts of worship of the State. In the book Those About to Die, Daniel P. Mannix observes: “Christians refused to . . . sacrifice to the [Roman] emperor’s genius—roughly equivalent today to refusing to salute the flag.” So it is with true Christians today.

That book of Romans is not calling for unlimited obedience. No. When the apostles were ordered not to preach the goodnews by those in authority, they said they would "obey God as ruler rather than men". Acts 5:29

So the obedience we give to God is with our whole soul, strength, and heart. But to other authorities, like the Government, we pay relative subjection - In as much as there laws dont contradict God's, to whom we pay unlimited allegiance, we will obey. But if it goes against God's, we will obey God as ruler rather than men.

Cutehector4u:
what is this one sayin...my dear, if u dnt like it, pls go and form ur country..i will not repeat myself again

Jehovah's witnessess as a collective group ranges up to 8.5million persons worldwide, even this collective numbers, numbered more than many nations who re UN members.

The question my dear, if you re a President of a country, who re your cherished citizens? those who pay their taxes and dues promptly, but do not sing the anthem, or those who sing with vim and vigor, and loot the public tresaury in broad day light. Be reasonable,
I could even sense your lack of patriotisim for Nigeria, the energy in your handwritting gives you away.
Let me ask, what have you done for Nigeria lately?
Take time to visit http://jw.org

Ukutsgp:
do u think the national anthem is not part of the civic duties of the citizens of this country? don't the leaders of this land recognised the national anthem? pls just tell me if singing it is a sin.

Nope, its not. And plz tell me if its a crime in not singing it.

indigene:


You really give out your right, when you don't exercise your freedom of speech, either to remain silent or speak, the US call this the fourth amendement.
In the pledge, which is the progeny of anthem. You said before men, To serve Nigeria with all your strength, if you do so, will you not be disobeying Christ, Who commanded that We should serve God with all your strength? Hence can you serve two masters.
Jehovah's witnessess are highly respected by government officials, because they honestly pay their taxes and dues, But its unfortunate and sad, that those who sing the anthem and recite the pledge loot the public tresuary at whim.
Jehovah's witnessess is the highest practicing religion in Italy, the background of pope, Japan, USA, if the fragmented baptist churches excluded as not one body, Canada' Mexico, Brazil, Germany, their praises had been extolled by the great Zik,
No human force can destroy them as a group, When other religious bodies cower under the tyrannic regime of Adolf Hitler, and Benito Mussulino, Its on historical record, that ONLY Jehovah's witnesses stood firm to death, NOT to say Hail Hitler.
These coward acts by hypocritical clergymen and women, lead to catholics killing catholics, Anglicans killing Anglican, verse versa, Muslims killing Muslims, Hindus, budhist, methodist, and fragments of atheists, pagans, etc, just hailling Hitler as savior of the world.Here in Nigeria many of them will buried or shot to death, because the refused to join the army, especially in biafra held area.
My observation here, in this thread showed that, youngsters are just repeating along the road from school tales

Crap.....

indigene:


Jehovah's witnessess as a collective group ranges up to 8.5million persons worldwide, even this collective numbers, numbered more than many nations who re UN members.

The question my dear, if you re a President of a country, who re your cherished citizens? those who pay their taxes and dues promptly, but do not sing the anthem, or those who sing with vim and vigor, and loot the public tresaury in broad day light. Be reasonable,
I could even sense your lack of patriotisim for Nigeria, the energy in your handwritting gives you away.
Let me ask, what have you done for Nigeria lately?
Take time to visit http://jw.org

All I see here is emotional disorder. What makes you think that some JW's dont evade tax? What makes you think that one who evade tax is as a result of his religious orientation? If you want to defend your teaching, come up with something logically ok and reasonable. Not trying to play reverse psychology on someone.

JMAN05:


You pledge to Nigeria your country to be faithful loyal and honest. to serve Nigerian with all your strength, to defend her unity and uphold her honor and glory. Then you expect God to also help you.

Luk 10:27

In answer he said: “‘You must love Jehovah your God with your whole heart and with your whole soul and with your whole strength and with your whole mind’ and ‘your neighbor as yourself."

Can you make such a vow and still claim to be serving God? You have made a vow to serve your land with all your strength, and uphold her honor and glory. To also serve with faithfulness and honesty. Nothing is wrong with faithfulness, however, what will you do if the constitution of your land demands you do something against God's laws? Will you serve your country with faithfulness? Remember what you vow, you will pay.

The double standard that you guys display is something else. Shey una dey do NYSC? Are you guys not obeying the clarion call during the process? Coming for CDS, clearance and other things. Abi is that one too not serving the nation with all you have?

The early Christians could not conscientiously participate in the patriotic rites of the Roman Empire. In commenting on the matter, The Book of Culture says: “The Christians, however, strong in their faith, would take no such oath of loyalty. And because they did not swear allegiance to what we would to-day consider as analogous to the Flag, they were considered politically dangerous.”

Saluting the Flag:

Are national flags simply signs serving some utilitarian function? What do they symbolize? “Nationalism’s chief symbol of faith and central object of worship is the flag,” stated author J. Paul Williams. The Encyclopedia Americana says: “The flag, like the cross, is sacred.” The flag is the symbol of the State. Therefore, bowing down to it or saluting it is a religious ceremony that gives reverence to the State. Such an act ascribes salvation to the State and does not harmonize with what the Bible says about idolatry.

Chai So ridiculous. How did saluting the flag become idolatary. You can as well say that Christ was encouraging idolatry when he said we shld give to ceaser what belongs to ceaser. I bet, those of you guys that work in an organization where the logo of the company is being crested on the uniform in which the workers wear or probably school badge are also practicing idolatry since you are displaying the symbol of your organization/school right on your chest. Cos the badge is an organizations chief symbol of faith and central object of worship. Also, you guys should try and take down your logo of your books and magazines.

The Scriptures clearly state: “Salvation belongs to Jehovah.” (Psalm 3: Salvation is not to be ascribed to human institutions or their symbols. The apostle Paul admonished fellow Christians: “My beloved ones, flee from idolatry.” (1 Corinthians 10:14) The early Christians did not participate in acts of worship of the State. In the book Those About to Die, Daniel P. Mannix observes: “Christians refused to . . . sacrifice to the [Roman] emperor’s genius—roughly equivalent today to refusing to salute the flag.” So it is with true Christians today.

When did any nation claim to give salvation?

That book of Romans is not calling for unlimited obedience. No. When the apostles were ordered not to preach the goodnews by those in authority, they said they would "obey God as ruler rather than men". Acts 5:29

So the obedience we give to God is with our whole soul, strength, and heart. But to other authorities, like the Government, we pay relative subjection - In as much as there laws dont contradict God's, to whom we pay unlimited allegiance, we will obey. But if it goes against God's, we will obey God as ruler rather than men.

SMH

indigene:

Jehovah's witnessess is the highest practicing religion in Italy, the background of pope, Japan, USA, if the fragmented baptist churches excluded as not one body, Canada' Mexico, Brazil, Germany

chai... You can lie o. Where did you get your statistics from. Catholicm makes abt 75percent of Italian christians, 10percent are other orthordox churches then the rest protestant with JW inclusives. Japan's christian population is less than 2percent. Even a primary sch kid knws fully well that Mexico and Brazil are more like a catholic nation. So plz, bring up another lie as this one have failed you.

@JMAN05

are u people nt using the national currency which is part of this world system? Are u people nt working in government institutions?

Is pledging to serve ur country well a sin? Is a nation a graven images that u bow down to? Should we nt be faithful, loyal, and honest to our country?

Dnt u tell ur wife that u love her with all ur heart? Does that mean u are worshipping her?

AltarBoy1:
chai... You can lie o. Where did you get your statistics from. Catholicm makes abt 75percent of Italian christians, 10percent are other orthordox churches then the rest protestant with JW inclusives. Japan's christian population is less than 2percent. Even a primary sch kid knws fully well that Mexico and Brazil are more like a catholic nation. So plz, bring up another lie as this one have failed you.

The english word there is practising, not proffessing. Just like my dad, and my uncles who proffess to be catholics, but never atteneded church over decades as I can observe.
You may not be aware that past church cathedrals or churches in Italy, UK, Germany has been turned into movie halls, hotels, supermarkets.
The word I used is Practising, not Dormant sleeping giants in numbers.

indigene:


The english word there is practising, not proffessing. Just like my dad, and my uncles who proffess to be catholics, but never atteneded church over decades as I can observe.
You may not be aware that past church cathedrals or churches in Italy, UK, Germany has been turned into movie halls, hotels, supermarkets.
The word I used is Practising, not Dormant sleeping giants in numbers.

Its still flawed. In Italy, Brazil or Mexico where catholics make up more than 80percent of the christian population. With JW's and other christians making up less than 20percent. Even if more than half the catholic population are dormant/lapsed, there is still no way the JW's will be the highest practicing christians. So plz tell me another lie as this one doesnt carry any weight. In countries like brazil/Mexico, I may axept if you say the normal protestan are the most practicing set. But alas, it still didnt get anywhere near the normal practicing catholic. Try and have a base before you throw a lie.

Ukutsgp:
@JMAN05

are u people nt using the national currency which is part of this world system? Are u people nt working in government institutions?

Is pledging to serve ur country well a sin? Is a nation a graven images that u bow down to? Should we nt be faithful, loyal, and honest to our country?

Dnt u tell ur wife that u love her with all ur heart? Does that mean u are worshipping her?

Good. Shebi dem dey carry our money around!!! Wch is a national symbol to our nation and also a form of idolatry. Nna eh, these guys double standard too much. Like I said earlier, they shld go and do away with that the logo, cos its a way of showing allegence to watch tower and also idolatry. You cant show allegence to two master, you must love one more than the other, JW or God.

AltarBoy1:
Good. Shebi dem dey carry our money around!!! Wch is a national symbol to our nation and also a form of idolatry. Nna eh, these guys double standard too much. Like I said earlier, they shld go and do away with that the logo, cos its a way of showing allegence to watch tower and also idolatry. You cant show allegence to two master, you must love one more than the other, JW or God.

I believe you love God, and his written word the Bible? I sincerely believe you do.
Could you please give honor to God, by reading bible book of Daniel chapter 3 vss 1-30., and please relate the lessons you draw therein.

Somethings governments official descrate their constitution.

The fourth amendement in US and freedom of speech in Nigeria constitution, and likewise in other nations is deemed to be sacred.

Citizens can exercise this right, when their conscience thinks otherwise, will it be fair to say that the great Zik of Africa to be unpatrotic, in his notable "No Comment"?

Jehovah's witnessess has fought for citizens rights to personal freedom of association, speech, movement, conscience etc, in many countries of the world psst and presently. login into their website www.jw.org and click newsroom, and review these battles for citizens rights.They have in no time instructed their members not to sing the anthem, or recite the pledge, but were persuaded to use the principles found in the bible, which the strongly respect to exercise their individual conscience, neither do they perduade anyone not to do so.

What I am saying, individual rights to speech, association, and exercise of ones conscience should be respected.
The late Pope John Paul 1 said, its a clear rape, when ones rights and conscience is abused or trampled upon, whatever the are. (search the archives of Romano Observatory).

The national anthem is sang as a mark of respect and loyalty to your beloved country. How is that idolatry? Did i tell you that i esteem my country above God when i sang it?

The bible says that all should be subject to the authority that be. Then why are u people disobeying such authorities when they tell u to stand and sing the national anthem as a mark of respect for your beloved country?

indigene:


You really give out your right, when you don't exercise your freedom of speech, either to remain silent or speak, the US call this the fourth amendement.
In the pledge, which is the progeny of anthem. You said before men, To serve Nigeria with all your strength, if you do so, will you not be disobeying Christ, Who commanded that We should serve God with all your strength? Hence can you serve two masters.
Jehovah's witnessess are highly respected by government officials, because they honestly pay their taxes and dues, But its unfortunate and sad, that those who sing the anthem and recite the pledge loot the public tresuary at whim.
[size=18pt]Jehovah's witnessess is the highest practicing religion in Italy, the background of pope, Japan, USA[/size], if the fragmented baptist churches excluded as not one body, Canada' Mexico, Brazil, Germany, their praises had been extolled by the great Zik

How did you invent that statistics? Tell us.

The highest practising religion in ITALY is Catholism, evidence of my claim below:

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Italy
Obviously you put up a desperate attempt to discredit the catholic church.

The highest practising christain group in USA is protestant evangelicals.

http://religions.pewforum.org/reports

The highest practising religion in Japan is budhism. Christainity is even a minority religion there.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Japan

No human force can destroy them as a group

nobody is trying to destroy them, neither can anyone destroy them, your governing body is already destroying your group by arrogantly repeating the same mistakes over and over again

,

When other religious bodies cower under the tyrannic regime of Adolf Hitler, and Benito Mussulino, Its on historical record, that ONLY Jehovah's witnesses stood firm to death, NOT to say Hail Hitler

The bolded is a big lie! I'll bring facts to refute them shortly.

While the term Holocaust victims generally mentions Jews during the Holocaust, the Nazis also persecuted and killed millions of Romani, Roman Catholics and other groups they also considered subhuman (Untermenschen), inferior, undesirable or dangerous.

The United States Holocaust Memorial Museum (USHMM) states: "The Holocaust was the murder of six million Jews and millions of others by the Nazis and their collaborators during World War II."[1]

In addition to Jews and Romani (of whom 1,5 million approximately were killed), the targeted groups also included communists Ukrainians (of whom 3 million approximately were killed), Poles (2.5 million) and other Slavic peoples; Soviets (particularly prisoners of war) and others who did not belong to the Aryan Herrenvolk (Master Race) such as people with mental disorders, the deaf, the physically disabled, those with learning disabilities; gay men (and occasionally lesbians), transgender people; political opponents (such as communists, trade unionists, social democrats, socialists, anarchists and others with left-wing political views); and religious dissidents such as the Jehovah's Witnesses.[2][3]

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_victims

These coward acts by hypocritical clergymen and women, lead to catholics killing catholics, Anglicans killing Anglican, verse versa, Muslims killing Muslims, Hindus, budhist, methodist, and fragments of atheists, pagans, etc, just hailling Hitler as savior of the world.Here in Nigeria many of them will buried or shot to death, because the refused to join the army, especially in biafra held area.
My observation here, in this thread showed that, youngsters are just repeating along the road from school tales

At least if you want to tell lies please lie with facts.

Daniel chapter 3 is talking about Nebuchadnezzar's golden image and nt a country. Singing ur national anthem doesn't mean u are worshipping ur country. Do u even know what it means to worship something?

Ukutsgp:
Daniel chapter 3 is talking about Nebuchadnezzar's golden image and nt a country. Singing ur national anthem doesn't mean u are worshipping ur country. Do u even know what it means to worship something?

What will amaze you more is that their doctrine of superior authorities have changed many times.

The understanding of the “Superior Authorities” is a teaching where the Watchtower doctrine has see-sawed back and forth in clear violation of the principle of the light getting lighter.

Romans 13:1-2 “Let every soul be in subjection to the superior authorities, for there is no authority except by God; the existing authorities stand placed in their relative positions by God. Therefore he who opposes the authority has taken a stand against the arrangement of God; those who have taken a stand against it will receive judgment to themselves.”
Romans chapter 13 is simple to understand. It shows we have an obligation to follow the laws of our country, and this is how it is interpretted by most Christian religions and how Russell explained the Scripture. Until 1929, the “superior authorities” or “higher powers” were correctly said by the Watchtower to be the earthly rulers to whom Christians paid taxes and whose laws they were obligated to follow.

“They taught the Church to obey the laws, and to respect those in authority because of their office, even if they were not personally worthy of esteem; to pay their appointed taxes, and, except where they conflicted with God’s laws (Acts 4:19; 5:29), to offer no resistance to any established law. (Rom. 13:1-7; Matt. 22:21)” Studies In the Scriptures Series I - The Divine Plan of the Ages p.266

“The Bible directs the followers of Jesus to be subject to the powers that be. (Romans 13:1-7; 1 Peter 2:13-17) But while seeking to be thus law-abiding in every respect, Christians are to recognize that there is still a higher law and a still higher Ruler, and are to be subject to the worldly powers only in the absence of a contrary admonition from the Higher Power - from God.” Watch Tower 1916 Jan 15
With one of Rutherford’s revelations this changed in 1929.

“The instruction of the thirteenth chapter of Romans has long been misapplied. The improper application has really been the basis for the false doctrine of the “divine right of kings” or rulers to rule and oppress the people. The apostle is, in substance, telling the members of the church that they should always be obedient to God, and that the motive for such obedience must be love for God and a delight in doing’ his will.” Watchtower 1929 Jun 1 p.163

“Both of these scriptures have reference to the government, order and discipline in the organization of the Lord. Applying these words to earthly governments has been misleading and wrongful so far as Christians are concerned.” Watchtower 1929 Jun 15 p.183

From 1929 to 1962 the “superior authorities” became “the Most High God Jehovah and his exalted Son Jesus Christ”. Rutherford used the 1929 position on higher authorities to justify:

1.Consuming alcohol during the United States prohibition (“God never authorized a prohibition or any other sumptuary law to control the consciences or actions of others.” w29 p.121)
2.Prevention of Bible Students doing civilian military service (“For this reason the Bible Students devoted to the Lord refuse to take military service, because they are true followers of Christ and must obey God’s law.” w29 p.117)
3.Banning flag salutes.

By saying that the higher authorities referred to Jehovah rather than earthly rulers, it made breaking the law easy to introduce.

In 1962, the Society returned to the original position of Russell. A statement in Babylon the Great Has Fallen! God’s Kingdom Rules! page 548 indicated there was a change in understanding;

“In spite of the end of the Gentile Times in 1914, God permitted the political authorities of this world to continue as the ‘higher powers’ or the ‘powers that be,’ which are ‘ordained of God’.”
This was explained in detail through the November 1, November 15 and December 1 editions of the Watchtower in 1962.

How does the Society justify this change back to the original position? The Proclaimers book includes a stunning portrayal of its history on this change; ironically included under the heading ‘The Light Shines More and More’. It is explained that the doctrinal change on Romans 13 is an example of “the light getting brighter”, completely avoiding any mention that this new light was a return to an original belief.

“As reflected in their modern-day history, the experience of Jehovah’s Witnesses has been like that described at Proverbs 4:18: “The path of the righteous ones is like the bright light that is getting lighter and lighter until the day is firmly established.” The shining of the light has been progressive, just as the light of early dawn gives way to sunrise and the full light of a new day. Viewing matters in the light that was available, they have at times had incomplete, even inaccurate, concepts.

For example, in 1962 there was an adjustment of understanding regarding “the superior authorities” of Romans 13:1-7.

For many years the Bible Students had taught that “the higher powers” (KJ) were Jehovah God and Jesus Christ. Why? In The Watch Towers of June 1 and June 15, 1929, a variety of secular laws were cited, and it was shown that what was permitted in one land was forbidden in another. Attention was also drawn to secular laws that required people to do what God prohibited or that forbade what God commanded his servants to do. Because of their earnest desire to show respect for the supreme authority of God, it seemed to the Bible Students that “the higher powers” must be Jehovah God and Jesus Christ. They still obeyed secular laws, but the emphasis was on obedience to God first. That was an important lesson, one that fortified them during the years of world turmoil that followed. But they did not clearly understand what Romans 13:1-7 was saying.

Years later, a careful reanalysis of the scripture was made, along with its context and its meaning in the light of all the rest of the Bible. As a result, in 1962 it was acknowledged that “the superior authorities” are the secular rulers, but with the help of the New World Translation, the principle of relative subjection was clearly discerned. This did not call for any major change in the attitude of Jehovah’s Witnesses toward the governments of the world, but it did correct their understanding of an important portion of the Scriptures. In the process, there was opportunity for the Witnesses individually to consider carefully whether they were truly living up to their responsibilities toward both God and the secular authorities. This clear understanding of “the superior authorities” has served as a protection to Jehovah’s Witnesses, especially in those lands where surges of nationalism and clamoring for greater freedom have resulted in outbreaks of violence and the formation of new governments.” Jehovah’s Witnesses-Proclaimers of God’s Kingdom pp.146-147
Notice the Proclaimers book makes no mention that originally Russell had presented the correct view of this scripture, and that the 1929 article was a departure from already revealed truth. Note also that the apparent correct understanding came about because of the more accurate Jehovah’s Witness New World Translation of the Bible, hiding the fact that Russell and most Christian religions have always had the correct understanding based on the King James Version of the Bible.

Finally, it is stated that the incorrect understanding helped fortify them to remain faithful during World War Two. It is as if truthfulness would not have been as effective in guiding God’s people in paths of righteousness. How can the Society say that teaching falsehood is of more benefit then teaching what the Bible really says?

It is similarly portrayed in an article titled ‘The Christian’s View of the Superior Authorities’ in the Watchtower 1990 Nov 1 p.11;

“For some years, until 1962, Jehovah’s Witnesses held that the superior authorities were Jehovah God and Christ Jesus. However, in line with Proverbs 4:18, light increased, and this view was adjusted.”
Notice the term “until 1962” is used. This indicates that up until 1962 the Witnesses had taught the doctrine that the superior authorities were Jehovah and Jesus with the one “progressive” change occurring in 1962. It does not admit that originally Russell had the correct teaching, and that Rutherford departed from it.

indigene:


I believe you love God, and his written word the Bible? I sincerely believe you do.
Could you please give honor to God, by reading bible book of Daniel chapter 3 vss 1-30., and please relate the lessons you draw therein.

Somethings governments official descrate their constitution.

The fourth amendement in US and freedom of speech in Nigeria constitution, and likewise in other nations is deemed to be sacred.

Citizens can exercise this right, when their conscience thinks otherwise, will it be fair to say that the great Zik of Africa to be unpatrotic, in his notable "No Comment"?

Jehovah's witnessess has fought for citizens rights to personal freedom of association, speech, movement, conscience etc, in many countries of the world psst and presently. login into their website www.jw.org and click newsroom, and review these battles for citizens rights.They have in no time instructed their members not to sing the anthem, or recite the pledge, but were persuaded to use the principles found in the bible, which the strongly respect to exercise their individual conscience, neither do they perduade anyone not to do so.

What I am saying, individual rights to speech, association, and exercise of ones conscience should be respected.
The late Pope John Paul 1 said, its a clear rape, when ones rights and conscience is abused or trampled upon, whatever the are. (search the archives of Romano Observatory).

I dont knw if this post was directed to me or to sm1 else. I was never argueing with you on the morals of reciting the anthem or not. My own is, what ever you want to believe in, believe. But dont come arnd to condem others who dont believe in such. There is no way that someone who obey all the duties of his country will be termed as idolatry in christianity neither will not obeying most or some part of the civic duties of your country makes one a sinner. Everyone to his faith and belief.

@altarBoy1, in no way is this topic or my contribution targeted towards you. I firmly believe that individual rights to freedom of speech, association, conscience and right to fair hearing SHOULD be respected.
@paulGrundy, the fact that Jews over 6million of them were consumed in gas chambers just on flimsy accusation that they are they killers of Jesus, gives me goose pimples and a horror.
The propaganda of Josef Goebbels and the Nazi cliches could, had been brought under control, if the churches had strongly spoken up. They life of other groups who lost their lives to Adolf Hitler madness, will never be forgotten, But have lessons of what happened during Nazi regime taught the world any lesson?, ethnic cleansing still go on daily basis, wanton hatred for minorities be that of religious groups or otherwise are been aflame by those who frame troubles by decrees.
When i used ONLY, under which context. What does it take for a pure Aryan Germany who is a Jehovah's witnesses to save his or her life?, is simply to say Hail Hitler, as a result of their refusal, over Ten thousand of them met their end in Auschwitz concentration camps.
At Nuremberg stadium Hitler raised his hands to the heavens, and declare" I shall exterminate these so-called international bible students",his listeners cheered joyously, now known as Jehovah's witnesses, he declared that Nazi regime shall rule for a thousand years, this was greeted by a thunderous cheers. The facts on ground showed his prophecy failed him and his direct and indirect supporters.
All these resulted because citizens rights were thrown out of the window, voices that supposed to speak went silent, those who spoke up died.

indigene:
@altarBoy1, in no way is this topic or my contribution targeted towards you. I firmly believe that individual rights to freedom of speech, association, conscience and right to fair hearing SHOULD be respected.
@paulGrundy, the fact that Jews over 6million of them were consumed in gas chambers just on flimsy accusation that they are they killers of Jesus, gives me goose pimples and a horror.
The propaganda of Josef Goebbels and the Nazi cliches could, had been brought under control, if the churches had strongly spoken up. They life of other groups who lost their lives to Adolf Hitler madness, will never be forgotten, But have lessons of what happened during Nazi regime taught the world any lesson?, ethnic cleansing still go on daily basis, wanton hatred for minorities be that of religious groups or otherwise are been aflame by those who frame troubles by decrees.
When i used ONLY, under which context. What does it take for a pure Aryan Germany who is a Jehovah's witnesses to save his or her life?, is simply to say Hail Hitler, as a result of their refusal, over Ten thousand of them met their end in Auschwitz concentration camps.
At Nuremberg stadium Hitler raised his hands to the heavens, and declare" I shall exterminate these so-called international bible students",his listeners cheered joyously, now known as Jehovah's witnesses, he declared that Nazi regime shall rule for a thousand years, this was greeted by a thunderous cheers. The facts on ground showed his prophecy failed him and his direct and indirect supporters.
All these resulted because citizens rights were thrown out of the window, voices that supposed to speak went silent, those who spoke up died.

Jehovahs witnesses were not the only ones who spoke against the Nazi regime, although their unwavering neutral stance is admirable, and the fact that they form a larger part of those who refused to associate with the Nazi propaganda is something worthy of commendation.

AltarBoy1:

The double standard that you guys display is something else. Shey una dey do NYSC? Are you guys not obeying the clarion call during the process? Coming for CDS, clearance and other things. Abi is that one too not serving the nation with all you have?

It is not serving the nation with all your strength. For eg, you are not there going to war. Pledging to serve the nation with all your strength is not only what is done in the NYSC. It means that with your strength, you are ready to use that your strength to whatever level the country calls for. Jehovah's witnesses wont obey you in going to the army. That refusal is against that pledge. So we dont give to the country all they detect. So, its illogical to make such vow when you wont fulfill it.

Chai So ridiculous. How did saluting the flag become idolatary. You can as well say that Christ was encouraging idolatry when he said we shld give to ceaser what belongs to ceaser. I bet, those of you guys that work in an organization where the logo of the company is being crested on the uniform in which the workers wear or probably school badge are also practicing idolatry since you are displaying the symbol of your organization/school right on your chest. Cos the badge is an organizations chief symbol of faith and central object of worship

1. The apostles knew what it means to give caesar what belongs to him, but when caesar demands worship, he is asking for what belongs to God. That national pledge and anthem is a religious song is never in dispute. We witnesses have proved that in High Courts. It seems you dont know what happens before an article is affixed in the encyclopedia.

2. I need your prove that a logo and a school badge is a chief symbol of worship.

3. the early christians understood this as well.

[quote]When did any nation claim to give salvation?
SMH

There establishing a religious song implies this.

Ukutsgp:
@JMAN05

are u people nt using the national currency which is part of this world system? Are u people nt working in government institutions?

Caesars thing. The problem here is that that flag has been proven to be something other than just a pole and a piece of cloth.

Is pledging to serve ur country well a sin? Is a nation a graven images that u bow down to? Should we nt be faithful, loyal, and honest to our country?

We should, but this thing you sing about is not just a song like a secular song you sing. But it is something else. The encyclopedia I gave and other secular books bears on this.

Dnt u tell ur wife that u love her with all ur heart? Does that mean u are worshipping her?

But that is not what the national anthem signifies. My vow to my wife during our wedding will be in accordance with what has been stated in the scriptures as it affects husbands. Your vow to your nation is not with this limitation.

JMAN05:


It is not serving the nation with all your strength. For eg, you are not there going to war. Pledging to serve the nation with all your strength is not only what is done in the NYSC. It means that with your strength, you are ready to use that your strength to whatever level the country calls for. Jehovah's witnesses wont obey you in going to the army. That refusal is against that pledge. So we dont give to the country all they detect.

If I tell you say una double standard too much, e go b like say I dey lie. You knw nysc have an anthem, you also knw that after 3-5 days in camp, you are being sworn in as a corper willing to uphold your duty to the country and community where you are being posted. Whats the different btw that and the national anthem. Talking abt the army, I gues you knw that the nysc is like a mini-army but in this case, you are not going into battle, but you are going to fight for the developemnt, peance and unity of the community where you are to be posted. I think you shld try and read all abt nysc. You guys are like a man who joins an armed robberry gang in sharing their loot and making plans/strategy on their next operation. Then when its time to strike, you then claim its morally wrong to rob, but you still go ahead to share the loot when they return and also aid in making plan for next operation.

JMAN05:


Caesars thing. The problem here is that that flag has been proven to be something other than just a pole and a piece of cloth.



We should, but this thing you sing about is not just a song like a secular song you sing. But it is something else. The encyclopedia I gave and other secular books bears on this.



But that is not what the national anthem signifies. My vow to my wife during our wedding will be in accordance with what has been stated in the scriptures as it affects husbands. Your vow to your nation is not with this limitation.

Guy, plz go and sit down. Who, how, where and when did a nations anthem become a religious song. You see the problem with you guys, you dont think with your head. If a nations anthem/flag is a religious symbol, then an organizational logo (mission statement) is also a religious symbol and you guys should desist from working/school in any organization that is owned by human. Do you knw that every school, lets say UNN, has its anthem and logo, and its expected that every student of the university act in accordance to the anthem and also feel proud where and when ever he/she sees the logo. How is that different from that of a nation. I repeat again. Your double standard is too much.

JMAN05:

1. The apostles knew what it means to give caesar what belongs to him, but when caesar demands worship, he is asking for what belongs to God. That national pledge and anthem is a religious song is never in dispute. We witnesses have proved that in High Courts. It seems you dont know what happens before an article is affixed in the encyclopedia.
2. I need your prove that a logo and a school badge is a chief symbol of worship.
3. the early christians understood this as well.
When did any nation claim to give salvation?
SMH
There establishing a religious song implies this

1)I still cant recall which nation is claiming to be god by demanding worship from its citizens. If you claim an anthem is a religous song, then a company's logo/anthem is also a religious symbol and you guys shld stop working there. In the last part of the pledge, it reads "so help me God". Why not "so help me nation or mr president or contitution or the police force."
2)Cos its have same symbol and importance to an organization just as the anthem is to a nation. Also, I still need you to prove to me according to biblical standard how a nation anthem became a symbol of worship not frm any other source.
3)The early christians disobeyed the authority only when they are being persecuted and not because of the civic duties the authority demanded from them.
I still dont knw hw a nation claim to be a religious organization.

AltarBoy1:

1)I still cant recall which nation is claiming to be god by demanding worship from its citizens. If you claim an anthem is a religous song, then a company's logo/anthem is also a religious symbol and you guys shld stop working there. In the last part of the pledge, it reads "so help me God". Why not "so help me nation or mr president or contitution or the police force."

[b]so help me God[/quote]. Tell me whether that phrase isn't religious. If it isn't religious, nothing like God will appear there.

And which God would now uphold the glory and honor of another nation, and support any action to see that this nation is protected (including wars), when true Christians are no part of the world?

2)Cos its have same symbol and importance to an organization just as the anthem is to a nation. Also, I still need you to prove to me according to biblical standard how a nation anthem became a symbol of worship not frm any other source.

- Plain of Dura.

- The logo of a company is truely there mark of identity, however, will you go to prison for mistreating that logo? But go and mistreat the Nigerian flag and see what happens.

Organisation's logo isn't accompanied by a religious song, nor is a mute posture needed during a ceremony.

The secular source that identified the identity of the flag is not from JW's. So why looked down upon? what will make that source to lie?
Do encyclopedias admit any type of article?

3)The early christians disobeyed the authority only when they are being persecuted and not because of the civic duties the authority demanded from them.

Who told you? please substantiate that claim.

Secondly, why will they even be persecuted if they do what the authorities demand of them?

I still dont knw hw a nation claim to be a religious organization.

Religion is part of man, when a religion doninates a country, this often affects all they do. They often make everything religious, and with time, they dont know they ve delved into idolatry.