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Stats: 2,161,837 members, 4,710,251 topics. Date: Monday, 21 January 2019 at 06:57 PM
|Re: My Thoughts And Questions About Religion by ooman(m): 12:02pm On Dec 15, 2014|
Seriously? I thought the only way to god was christ. Hope you realize you are in direct contradiction to "I am the way, truth and life. No one comes to the father except through me"
|Re: My Thoughts And Questions About Religion by ooman(m): 12:04pm On Dec 15, 2014|
This is nothing but hair splitting. Lets focus on the real task shall we? Now answer the question. Which god?
|Re: My Thoughts And Questions About Religion by honourhim: 12:08pm On Dec 15, 2014|
Hey! thats not the issue i have with you. Stop diverting.Go and address the issue i have with you in that your thread.
Again drop the bible as i said. Is it not foolishness for you to still believe a book with many lies(according to you) and believe the God which the book projects? Be "wise" brother and drop the book and the God it projects. Or you want to continue to live in this foolishness? Smh..
|Re: My Thoughts And Questions About Religion by honourhim: 12:10pm On Dec 15, 2014|
No I'm not here to bow to your dictates so you cant kick me into what you want. I said God. If you want to discuss god, then find someone else not me bro. But if you want to discuss God, then lets continue.
|Re: My Thoughts And Questions About Religion by ooman(m): 12:17pm On Dec 15, 2014|
bye bye then.
|Re: My Thoughts And Questions About Religion by joseph1013: 12:26pm On Dec 15, 2014|
Hey buddy, there is no need to punctuate your comments with such statements as 'You are free to choose to love God or hate him, it your choice'. Of course it is my choice and it came by virtue of some really rigorous search.
So back to our discourse. Since there is no law to cause sin, what is the basis for the punishment melted out on Cain in the first instance? Why was Cain punished for what he was not warned about?
One of the things I have noticed about the religious is their tendency to resort to extra-biblical explanations and interpretations. Saying I don't know is often a problem for them. And that is exactly the reason why there are so many sects and denominations in all versions of religions.
You have to ask yourself: why does an all-loving, all-knowing, all-powerful God leave his children in this constant confusion that has led men into wars and witch-hunts where tens of millions have been killed.
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|Re: My Thoughts And Questions About Religion by honourhim: 12:27pm On Dec 15, 2014|
Thanks for your time.
|Re: My Thoughts And Questions About Religion by joseph1013: 12:29pm On Dec 15, 2014|
Well, all religions thrive on the same concept of falsehoods where explanations are given to the unknown instead of simply admitting that they do not know.
I assume you're a muslim. Let me ask: how do you know that Islam is the one true religion?
|Re: My Thoughts And Questions About Religion by malvisguy212: 12:32pm On Dec 15, 2014|
ooman:paul persecute the church and kill christians when the promise of God has been fulfilled even paul say''I do not deserve to be called an apostle because I persecuted the church but by the grace of God I am what i am today''the point is that God judge those that died before the coming of christ base on there work,paul was saved because he believe in the salvation jesus brought to the world, If you believe in jesus you will not be judge.
John 3:18.New Living Translation
"There is no judgment against anyone who believes
in him. But anyone who does not believe in him has
already been judged for not believing in God's one
and only Son.
|Re: My Thoughts And Questions About Religion by ooman(m): 12:35pm On Dec 15, 2014|
Ok, So I can now become a Christian and start embezzling company and country money, kill people and take their properties since I will not be judged right?
I now see why there is evil and corruption in the world even though most people are religious. Its because like you, they believe they will not be judged only if they believe. smh
|Re: My Thoughts And Questions About Religion by joseph1013: 12:38pm On Dec 15, 2014|
You should have patiently read my opening post. There is no where I asked you to lose your faith. It's explained there. I only ask for you to be open-minded and let go of all pre-conceived notions. I do not claim to know all things and I dont and never will. However, while I am willing to admit to the fact that I dont know, religionists are not so comfortable with doing so. They resort to religious texts that has been proven to have no final authority.
Back to the response. If 900 years is not 90, who did Cain get married it to? And if in.ce.st can not be considered unholy at that time, then how can Cain be punished for what he did not know to be wrong, in this case the sacrifice?
Also, if you say that in.ce.st was not immoral for the generations before Leviticus because God hadn't said it was immoral. God had yet to relay to Moses his official rules, so because God hadn't put it in writing yet it didn't apply to Cain. Therefore, because God hadn't yet said it was wrong, Abraham, Lot and all the other pre-Leviticus patriarchs could engage in incestuous relations with impunity.
Question: why was Sodom and Gomorrah punished for their 'supposed' sexual perversions? [/b]
|Re: My Thoughts And Questions About Religion by joseph1013: 12:48pm On Dec 15, 2014|
There is a serious problem with saying that Conscience will be used to judge. Look at the following:
John 10:8 I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved.
John 14:6 I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
The problem is that we add our own explanations outside of that provided in the Scriptures as if we have a unique revelation. We dont. If Jesus says he is the only way to God, and did not add that it holds true to only people who heard him, since he is God-in-human-form who knows that certain people would need it in 2014, why are you allowed to add your own interpretation?
|Re: My Thoughts And Questions About Religion by joseph1013: 12:52pm On Dec 15, 2014|
Good for you. Let me ask: do you still believe in the Abrahamic God? Why?
|Re: My Thoughts And Questions About Religion by Nobody: 1:09pm On Dec 15, 2014|
I will just call him GOD not the Abrahamic God as this promotes a racist and exclusivist attitude.
I believe in God because my conscience bears me witness that he is real .
|Re: My Thoughts And Questions About Religion by joseph1013: 1:34pm On Dec 15, 2014|
Why do you think your conscience 'speaks' the truth? Have you engaged your conscience over and over again and it has given you a 100% 'truth' rate?
|Re: My Thoughts And Questions About Religion by Nobody: 2:03pm On Dec 15, 2014|
Your question is too complex for a brief answer. It is like asking you how you know that E=mc2. The problem is that theists are expected to explain a whole interwining body of knowledge, reasoning and logic by saying; "well a=b and b=c, therefore a=c".
Your question needs much effort to answer bro. Put it simpler.
|Re: My Thoughts And Questions About Religion by joseph1013: 2:32pm On Dec 15, 2014|
Well, like Einstein said, if you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. And if you don't understand it well enough, you do not have the moral justification to proselyte.
I personally dont understand how asking how you know if your version of God and 'The Truth' is right is complex. We actually do know how E=mc2. It is provable and has been proven. It's not mysterious.
Okay, let me put in another way, why do you believe what you believe?
|Re: My Thoughts And Questions About Religion by PastorAIO: 2:43pm On Dec 15, 2014|
Haba!! How all of una go see elephant inside room and you nor go talk?
If there was no law then and subsequently no sin, then by what did God judge Cain for murder? Abi Murder no go be violation of any law wey no exist.
Au contraire there was already Sin back then as Genesis 4 tells us:
6 And the Lord said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen? 7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.
|Re: My Thoughts And Questions About Religion by PastorAIO: 2:53pm On Dec 15, 2014|
Thank you very mush. I was about to get unto that. in fact I was going to ask if people before the Law had consciences or not. If they did, then what is the conscience based on, the law? Or something else?
Personally I believe human beings are essentially moral creatures. Law or no law, we all have an inner moral compass. Those that know me on NL know that I have always mocked all these 'before the law, after the law' arguments.
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|Re: My Thoughts And Questions About Religion by joseph1013: 2:56pm On Dec 15, 2014|
The notion that faith in Christ is to be rewarded by an eternity of bliss, while a dependence upon reason, observation and experience merits everlasting pain, is too absurd for refutation, and can be relieved only by that unhappy mixture of insanity and ignorance, called "faith."
What man, who ever thinks, can believe that blood can appease God? And yet, our entire system of religion is based upon that belief. The Jews pacified Jehovah with the blood of animals, and according to the Christian system, the blood of Jesus softened the heart of God a little, and rendered possible the salvation of a fortunate few.
It is hard to conceive how the human mind can give assent to such terrible ideas, or how any sane man can read the Bible and still believe in the doctrine of inspiration.
Robert Green Ingersoll
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|Re: My Thoughts And Questions About Religion by joseph1013: 2:57pm On Dec 15, 2014|
"I cannot see why we should expect an infinite God to do better in another world than he does in this."
"If there is a God who will damn his children forever, I would rather go to hell than to go to heaven and keep the society of such an infamous tyrant. I make my choice now. I despise that doctrine. It has covered the cheeks of this world with tears. It has polluted the hearts of children, and poisoned the imaginations of men....
What right have you, sir, Mr. clergyman, you, minister of the gospel to stand at the portals of the tomb, at the vestibule of eternity, and fill the future with horror and with fear? I do not believe this doctrine, neither do you. If you did, you could not sleep one moment. Any man who believes it, and has within his breast a decent, throbbing heart, will go insane. A man who believes that doctrine and does not go insane has the heart of a snake and the conscience of a hyena."
-- Robert Green Ingersoll
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|Re: My Thoughts And Questions About Religion by joseph1013: 3:00pm On Dec 15, 2014|
A little rant 1:
The notion that morality derives from religion is an actual myth. Morality predates religion. For instance, if you derive your morality from the Abrahamic holy books, then how do you know that slavery is wrong? Or that homophobia, misogyny and the subjugation of women (at least, the Quran endorses wife beating) are wrong?
It seems to me that we are born with a sense of right and wrong, and the majority of religious people cherry pick verses from their scriptures to conform to secular humanist worldview.
So, what then is the value of religion if it doesn't actually provide morals? Why do people still choose to continue living by medieval ideologies? Is it because of the fear of imaginary punishments such as hellfire or the promise of imaginary rewards such as heaven and wide-eyed virgins? Or could it be that warm fuzzy feeling of protection and hopefulness (even if contrived) that people derive from thinking that someone out there is watching out for them?
Here is another question: is religion a human evolutionary trait (I'm not aware that animals hold religious beliefs or observe religious rites)? If so, perhaps, we should let everyone evolve at their own pace, provided they are not throwing bombs around or flying planes into building. What could have been the evolutionary advantage of holding religious beliefs?
|Re: My Thoughts And Questions About Religion by Nobody: 3:06pm On Dec 15, 2014|
When i say 'complex', I am referring to explaining it in a few sentences in a NL comment. As impossible for E=mc2, as it is for Religious belief. Both need more space than NL to explain. However, briefly, my beliefs are predicated on a cause and effect principle, a belief in a real reason for existence other than as a medium for passing on mutated DNA, and a belief that our actions have too much effects to go unrewarded or unpunished... one way or the other. Also, the fact is that I have found after much research that Islam gives ME a more credible explanation than non muslim sources, although I have a number of qualifications in pure science based fields and am only self-taught in religious sciences.
Secondly, I never tried to proselytze. To you is your belief and to me is mine. However, my premise was that it is common for ex-christians to accuse all religions of whatever contradiction they found in the Bible, that created a doubt in their mind about christianity. I merely advised that you guys should please indicate the Religion you have a problem with, so that we who have no business in that religion would not bother to click on the topic.
|Re: My Thoughts And Questions About Religion by PastorAIO: 3:14pm On Dec 15, 2014|
E=mc2 means that matter and energy are both manifestations of the very same substances and so can be converted from one to the other. matter can be changed to energy and vice verse. for each unit of mass we will get a yield of energy that is the Square of the speed of light times the mass.
This is a lot easier that you imagine.
|Re: My Thoughts And Questions About Religion by Nobody: 3:38pm On Dec 15, 2014|
Lol. You are STATING, not explaining or proving. I can similarly state that:
God exists, He created the Universe and everything in it following immutable laws, while Himself remains uncreated and Eternal. He gave us; in the Qur'an; laws and principles by which we should live our lives and interact with other members of His creation in order to have a harmonious co-existence; and for the implementation of which we are either rewarded or punished to the extent that we followed those rules during our earthly existence.
I stated too, but I did not prove. OP asked me to prove. That is complex. It involves proving why I believe in God, why I believe that the Qur'an was a message from God... etc. The process is tedious, can lead to argument and it is of no benefit to me to try to convince him; I don't need his tithe and cannot care about his salvation more than he does. Why waste time on it?
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|Re: My Thoughts And Questions About Religion by aaronson(m): 4:00pm On Dec 15, 2014|
honourhim:Like I said I'm not gonna be arrogant or condescending in this discuss,that been said,90% of what I know wasn't from the bible matter of fact the bible is a tool to which the conquerors use to control your mindset and the Christians life revolves around the bible,That 66verses(penticostal) and 74verses(catholic) bible are really nothing but nothing about nothing....full of contractions and inconsistency,read stuff outside the bible to get wisdom because your life was one of the satisfaction written in pages of the bible by the conquerors.
|Re: My Thoughts And Questions About Religion by PastorAIO: 4:01pm On Dec 15, 2014|
I apologize. How do I know it is true? In 1945 a plan was devised to end WW2 by putting the theory into practice. some matter was converted into energy as part of a bomb. It totally destroyed a whole city. It was done again and another city was flattened. The cities are called Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
Further more there are whole segments of society and industry that get their energy supply from plants that are built on the basis of this same equation.
Can you provide like evidence to prove why you believe what you believe.
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|Re: My Thoughts And Questions About Religion by honourhim: 4:02pm On Dec 15, 2014|
I didn't add anything. Read Acts:17:29,30.
Having said that, in our time the gospel of Jesus has gone far and wide. Many have heard it and have had encounter with him in their closet. Jesus is not encoutered only in the church. Salvation is not gotten only in the church. You can encounter Jesus anywhere and anytime.
|Re: My Thoughts And Questions About Religion by Nobody: 4:34pm On Dec 15, 2014|
Huh? That is proof? That is hearsay evidence. Would you believe if I told you that many muslims applied the Islamic law throughout their lives and died with descriptions of paradise being their last words?
Didn't think so.
For scientific proof, I expect you to expantiate on how the formula was derived from other established formulae (which I may require you to prove if I have my doubts). As it is now, your belief is just blind faith, based on hearsay evidence.
Don't get me wrong. I believe in E=mc2. I am just trying to point out that the kind of 'proof' required from theists is always different from that which atheists require from their scientist gods. You think nothing of believing in a physics book purportedly written by a man whose existence you cannot independently prove, in a period you were not yet born, propounding a formula that you do not even know how to expantiate on. Yet you ridicule theists for believing in a Book presented by someone they never met, in a period they were not yet born. You want DNA samples, fingerprints and sign of 'heavenly' dust on the manuscripts. You want God to repeat the 'experiment' under laboratory conditions for you to document it in the science journal before you believe.
Let me tell you, I am science trained. All scientific theories are supposedly repeatable under lab conditions with the same results, but few are actually repeated for confirmation. Also practically all theories depend to some extent, on assumptions that certain other theories are true and not based on fabricated data... so even scientific belief is based largely on blind faith.
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|Re: My Thoughts And Questions About Religion by joseph1013: 4:52pm On Dec 15, 2014|
You're shifting ground and that is nothing new to religionists. We started off with what happened with people who are dead but did not hear the gospel of Christ, you said they'd be judged by conscience. Conscience cannot be used because Jesus has supposedly provided a blueprint for salvation.
And you'd be amazed at the billions of people in this world right now who do not know that there is something called Jesus. And according to the scriptures, how can they believe if they have not heard?
|Re: My Thoughts And Questions About Religion by PastorAIO: 5:39pm On Dec 15, 2014|
You're shifting ground and that is nothing new to religionists. We started off asking how you know your religion is true. You said it's like asking how we know E=mc squared.
I subsequently explained to you with ease how and why I believe E=mc squared. You then shifted and started asking for scientific proof even going into a deep one about scientists not repeating experiments. Nobody is questioning the validity of scientific opinions here. I am only demonstrating that it is very easy for me to lay out why I believe that e=mcsquared. Perhaps you believe that my belief is wrong, that is totally besides the point. The point is that the reasons for my belief are easily laid out. you might not agree... oh, but you do agree... but you dismiss it as hearsay. Good.
I admit that it is just hearsay and it doesn't amount to rigorous proof. Will you admit that your hearsay of muslims seeing paradise before they die is no reason to believe the Koran?
Let me summarise. Nobody asked you for proofs. You asked to explain why you believe something.
|Re: My Thoughts And Questions About Religion by PastorAIO: 6:14pm On Dec 15, 2014|
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