HEBREWS 1:5-10

5 For to which of the angels did God ever say,

“You are my Son;
today I have become your Father”[a]?

Or again,

“I will be his Father,
and he will be my Son”?

6 And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says,
[b]
“Let all God’s angels worship him.”[c]

7 In speaking of the angels he says,

“He makes his angels spirits,
and his servants flames of fire.”[d]

8 But about the Son he says,

“Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever;
a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions
by anointing you with the oil of joy.”[e]

10 He also says,

“In the beginning, Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of your hands.


HMMMMM........Indoctrination

anyway, 2 corinthians 4:4 The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

bingbagbo:


HEBREWS 1:5-10

5 For to which of the angels did God ever say,

“You are my Son;
today I have become your Father”[a]?

Or again,

“I will be his Father,
and he will be my Son”?

6 And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says,
[b]
“Let all God’s angels worship him.”[c]

7 In speaking of the angels he says,

“He makes his angels spirits,
and his servants flames of fire.”[d]

8 But about the Son he says,

“Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever;
a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions
by anointing you with the oil of joy.”[e]

10 He also says,

“In the beginning, Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of your hands.


HMMMMM........Indoctrination

anyway, 2 corinthians 4:4 The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

Yes, those verses clearly show that Jesus was not an Angel,
and in verse 8 the Father calls Jesus "God".

johnw74:


Yes, those verses clearly show that Jesus was not an Angel,
and in verse 8 the Father calls Jesus "God".

and that JESUS created all things

hmmm which spirit reveals things for the jws

bingbagbo:



and that JESUS created all things

hmmm which spirit reveals things for the jws

If you read JWs' Bible you will see this obvious incoherency there,

The Author of Hebrew quoted Psalms but JWs change Heb 1:8 to "God is your throne..."

Dubious people...

where are the jw,s?

Following....

bingbagbo:
where are the jw,s?

shey! u get strenght

vest:
shey! u get strenght

Isa 45:21 Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.

Mat 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.


G1694

Ἐμμανουήλ
Emmanouēl
em-man-oo-ale'
Of Hebrew origin [H6005]; God with us; Emmanuel, a name of Christ: - Emmanuel.
Total KJV occurrences: 1


1Jn 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

If anyone wants a good Bible on their computer which can give you the Hebrew and Greek words of the old texts, and much more, you can download it here, and it's free.

http://www.e-sword.net

Give the link to your Christian friends.

bingbagbo:


HEBREWS 1:5-10

5 For to which of the angels did God ever say,

“You are my Son;
today I have become your Father”[a]?

Or again,

“I will be his Father,
and he will be my Son”?

NB: "GOD did not say to any of his angels- You are my son". This clearly seperate God( the one talking) and the one he called his son (God's son/ Jesus).

Note the bold word above "TODAY", Jesus was called God's son on a particular day (it all started on a day before his coming to earth as a Human).

How could one God claim to be the Father of another God else it is just like Adam, Angels, Satan who both creations and Gods at the same time?

bingbagbo:

6 And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says,
[b]
“Let all God’s angels worship him.”[c]

7 In speaking of the angels he says,

“He makes his angels spirits,
and his servants flames of fire.”[d]

Verse 6- God/YHWH brought his "firstborn" not himself not his partner nor part of himself.

God/YHWH is the one who orders the Angels to worship Jesus. So Jesus being worship brings glory to his king maker/GodFather NB: Jesus is worshipped in the bible only in the presence of God/YHWH and not when he is alone- Why is that?

bingbagbo:

8 But about the Son he says,

“Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever;
a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.

When did Jesus started to rule as King? Before Earth or after Earth?

Was he appointed by Someone/Maybe God/YHWH perhaps? (See verse 9)

Did Jesus need to meet a certain requirement before being a King? Does him being a King depend on Someone (Remember "Sit at my right hand until I make your enemy a footstool for your feet"

NB:YHWH has always been a King for all eternity. Jesus is not the only being called God in the bible- Man, Angels and Satan are God's also.

bingbagbo:

9 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions
by anointing you with the oil of joy.”[e]

Many of you forget the bold section above: Jesus has his own personal God/YHWH who does for him what Jesus cannot do for himself, just like God/YHWH does for man also.

bingbagbo:

10 He also says,

“In the beginning, Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of your hands.

Yes, Jesus was used to create the Heavens and the Earth and everything in it hence the use of the phrase "through him were everything made" found in most translations. He was a tool used in creation, that does not mean he is one and the Same with the Father who used him to create.

bingbagbo:

HMMMMM........Indoctrination

anyway, 2 corinthians 4:4 The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

The above scriptural quote could also be applied to you too, you know. Since you refuse to see everything else but what your clergy told you. We examine the scriptures ourselves just like the Boreans did.

RikoduoSennin:


NB: "GOD did not say to any of his angels- You are my son". This clearly seperate God( the one talking) and the one he called his son (God's son/ Jesus).

Note the bold word above "TODAY", Jesus was called God's son on a particular day (it all started on a day before his coming to earth as a Human).

How could one God claim to be the Father of another God else it is just like Adam, Angels, Satan who both creations and Gods at the same time?





Verse 6- God/YHWH brought his "firstborn" not himself not his partner nor part of himself.

God/YHWH is the one who orders the Angels to worship Jesus. So Jesus being worship brings glory to his king maker/GodFather NB: Jesus is worshipped in the bible only in the presence of God/YHWH and not when he is alone- Why is that?



When did Jesus started to rule as King? Before Earth or after Earth?

Was he appointed by Someone/Maybe God/YHWH perhaps? (See verse 9)

Did Jesus need to meet a certain requirement before being a King? Does him being a King depend on Someone (Remember "Sit at my right hand until I make your enemy a footstool for your feet"

NB:YHWH has always been a King for all eternity. Jesus is not the only being called God in the bible- Man, Angels and Satan are God's also.




Many of you forget the bold section above: Jesus has his own personal God/YHWH who does for him what Jesus cannot do for himself, just like God/YHWH does for man also.




Yes, Jesus was used to create the Heavens and the Earth and everything in it hence the use of the phrase "through him were everything made" found in most translations. He was a tool used in creation, that does not mean he is one and the Same with the Father who used him to create.







The above scriptural quote could also be applied to you too, you know. Since you refuse to see everything else but what your clergy told you. We examine the scriptures ourselves just like the Boreans did.

John 3:12
I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things?

flee from that cult called jw now and be saved!!!

bingbagbo:




John 3:12
I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things?

flee from that cult called jw now and be saved!!!

As regards that scriptures, Did Jesus mean his disciples did not believe him?

One of this days, you are going to tell us how JW is a cult for real. You like Slander she- remember too that "Devil" means "Liar" or "Slanderer"- someone who make false and harmful statements that damage a person's reputation. That is how he got that name at the Garden of Eden when he told Eve that God lied and he did not what Eve to be like him in knowing good and bad.

Don't become a son of the Devil yourself like the Pharasee's were in Jesus time.

RikoduoSennin:
He was a tool used in creation, that does not mean he is one and the Same with the Father who used him to create.

How those this statement you made agrees with this verse?
"Who, although being essentially one with God and in the form of God [possessing the fullness of the attributes which make God God], did not think this equality with God was a thing to be eagerly grasped or retained," (Philip 2:6)

Hiswordxray:

How those this statement you made agrees with this verse?
"Who, although being essentially one with God and in the form of God [possessing the fullness of the attributes which make God God], did not think this equality with God was a thing to be eagerly grasped or retained," (Philip 2:6)

Firstly, You inserted the bold section above.

Please, quote the Scriptures only next time.

On the matter; Have your read other bible translations- because from experience, it is always good to compare translations.

//
"Being one with God" means what to you?
Please compare John 17:11"....That they may be ONE, AS WE ARE ONE"----Jesus' disciples will be ONE just AS Jesus and the Father are one (NB: Exactly the Same way), John 17:21"....That they also may BE ONE IN US"

//
"In the Form of God"
NB: This verse was describing Jesus on Earth not when he was or is in Heaven.
So in what way was Jesus in God's form? Because if what you inserted in that bracket is TRUE then it becomes very interesting when Jesus "being God himself as you claimed" SAYS THE FATHER IS HIS PERSONAL GOD don't you think? Because how can a God have another God he answers to? (John 20:17, Revelation 3:2,12)

//
" [JESUS] did not think this equality with God was a thing to be eagerly grasped or retained"

Ponder over the bold section again, read the phrase that follows again, read it again. Why I inserted Jesus there was to specify that Phil 2:6 was talking about Jesus and no one else.

Jesus' did not think he is equal with YHWH hence John 14:28 " The Father is GREATER THAN I". it doesn't have another meaning! Jesus received Power, authority and Kingship from YHWH, the reverse is NEVER the case, Why is that?

RikoduoSennin:


Firstly, You inserted the bold section above.

Please, quote the Scriptures only next time.

You're jumping into conclusion.
I quoted directly from the Amplified version without inserting anything.

RikoduoSennin:

//
"Being one with God" means what to you?
Please compare John 17:11"....That they may be ONE, AS WE ARE ONE"----Jesus' disciples will be ONE just AS Jesus and the Father are one (NB: Exactly the Same way), John 17:21"....That they also may BE ONE IN US"
//

Being one with God means to be inseparable from God, to be part of God just as your hand is part of your body. Every part of your body come together to form one unified body (although this is not a perfect example).

Remember what you said:

RikoduoSennin:
He was a tool used in creation, that does not mean he is one and the Same with the Father who used him to create.

So you have to first admit you are wrong about this statement.

RikoduoSennin:


" [JESUS] did not think this equality with God was a thing to be eagerly grasped or retained"
Ponder over the bold section again, read the phrase that follows again, read it again. Why I inserted Jesus there was to specify that Phil 2:6 was talking about Jesus and no one else.
Jesus' did not think he is equal with YHWH hence John 14:28 " The Father is GREATER THAN I". it doesn't have another meaning! Jesus received Power, authority and Kingship from YHWH, the reverse is NEVER the case, Why is that?

You are missing something very important in that verse, so take a closer look at it:
"Jesus... did not think this equality with God"
That verse didn't say "Jesus did not think equality with God..." but it said "this equality with God"
There is a huge difference between those statement.
"this equality" means there exist a present equality between Jesus and God. Hence Jesus and God is equal.


So admit the truth or tell us more of your lies...

RikoduoSennin:


NB: "GOD did not say to any of his angels- You are my son". This clearly seperate God( the one talking) and the one he called his son (God's son/ Jesus).

Note the bold word above "TODAY", Jesus was called God's son on a particular day (it all started on a day before his coming to earth as a Human).

How could one God claim to be the Father of another God else it is just like Adam, Angels, Satan who both creations and Gods at the same time?





Verse 6- God/YHWH brought his "firstborn" not himself not his partner nor part of himself.

God/YHWH is the one who orders the Angels to worship Jesus. So Jesus being worship brings glory to his king maker/GodFather NB: Jesus is worshipped in the bible only in the presence of God/YHWH and not when he is alone- Why is that?



When did Jesus started to rule as King? Before Earth or after Earth?

Was he appointed by Someone/Maybe God/YHWH perhaps? (See verse 9)

Did Jesus need to meet a certain requirement before being a King? Does him being a King depend on Someone (Remember "Sit at my right hand until I make your enemy a footstool for your feet"

NB:YHWH has always been a King for all eternity. Jesus is not the only being called God in the bible- Man, Angels and Satan are God's also.




Many of you forget the bold section above: Jesus has his own personal God/YHWH who does for him what Jesus cannot do for himself, just like God/YHWH does for man also.




Yes, Jesus was used to create the Heavens and the Earth and everything in it hence the use of the phrase "through him were everything made" found in most translations. He was a tool used in creation, that does not mean he is one and the Same with the Father who used him to create.




The above scriptural quote could also be applied to you too, you know. Since you refuse to see everything else but what your clergy told you. We examine the scriptures ourselves just like the Boreans did.

@bolded, so GOD(YHWH) lied in Isaiah 48:13? "My own hand laid the foundations of the earth, and my right hand spread out the heavens; when I summon them, they all stand up together"

YHWH says HIS own hands created the universe, you say no, HE created an angel, and the angel created all things....hmmmmmmmm LORD HAVE MERCY!!!!

Hiswordxray:

You're jumping into conclusion.
I quoted directly from the Amplified version without inserting anything.

My mistake, I thought the sentence written within the bracket was not found on the bible you quoted from.

Hiswordxray:

Being one with God means to be inseparable from God, to be part of God just as your hand is part of your body. Every part of your body come together to form one unified body (although this is not a perfect example).

Is there any Bible verse that expands on your explaination above, that confirms/backs it up. Because I am sure you did not read John 17:11,21.

Please explain what John 17:11,21 mean?

Hiswordxray:

You are missing something very important in that verse, so take a closer look at it:
"Jesus... did not think this equality with God"
That verse didn't say "Jesus did not think equality with God..." but it said "this equality with God"
There is a huge difference between those statement.
"this equality" means there exist a present equality between Jesus and God. Hence Jesus and God is equal.

If the above is TRUE, Was Jesus Lying when he said "The Father is greater than I am". Your God caught in a lie- that is very rich.

Did you listened to me, when I tell you to compare different translations?

"Equality WITH God"- the scripture said not "The Father", So do will have more than one God? In what way is Jesus equal with God?

Hiswordxray:

So admit the truth or tell us more of your lies...

I have been telling the truth but you call it lies because it does not sit well with you.

bingbagbo:


@bolded, so GOD(YHWH) lied in Isaiah 48:13? "My own hand laid the foundations of the earth, and my right hand spread out the heavens; when I summon them, they all stand up together"

A man tells his friend I built this House with my own sweat/hands. Did he mean he was the one who did the bricklayer, electrical, roofing with his physical hands- TRUE or FALSE?

Jesus said "My Father keeps working and I work"- John 5:17, Read Proverb 8:22-30 "and I came beside him as a MASTER WORKER". Jesus did NOTHING of his own initiative- Read John 5:19,20,30;

John 1:3 " Everything was made THROUGH him (Jesus)" , Why was the word "through" used?

bingbagbo:

YHWH says HIS own hands created the universe, you say no, HE created an angel, and the angel created all things....hmmmmmmmm LORD HAVE MERCY!!!!

Please quote me where I said the above!

Op, Read the Bible and understand it fully. See past the formulated dogma called trinity because it does not belong in the Bible.

If Jesus is Almighty God...

1. Then why is "God head of Christ just as Christ is head of man"? (1 Cor. 11:3)

2. Then why does Scripture consistently phrase Jesus as a separate person from God? (John 20:17; John 14:1; Mark 10:18; John 17:1-3; etc. Also in heaven, 1 Cor. 11:3; Luke 22:69; etc.)

3. Then how can Jesus have a God? Could Almighty God have a God? (Mic. 5:4; Ps. 45:6, 7; 89:26; John 20:17; Rom. 15:6; 2 Cor. 1:3; Eph 1:3; Col 1:3; Mark 15:34; John 17:1-3; Also in heaven, Rev. 1:6; 3:2, 12)

4. Then why does Scripture say he was born and is part of Creation? (Col. 1:15)

5. Then why does Rev. 3:14 say that Jesus is "the beginning of the creation of God"?

6. Then why is he subject to GOD, like we're subject to him? (1 Cor. 15:27, 28; Eph. 1:17)

7. Then why does Micah 5:2 say that Jesus' ORIGIN was “from early times”?

8. Then why does Jesus not know what God knows? (Matt. 24:36, Rev.1:1; Luke 8:45)

9. Then why is Jesus still subject to God when he is as high as he will ever be? (1 Cor. 15:27, 28)

10. Then why does Proverbs 8:22-31 show that the Messiah was CREATED / PRODUCED by God?

11. Then why is he not powerful enough to subject things to himself? (1 Cor. 15:27, Eph. 1:17, 22)

12. Then why would he have to be given any power and authority? (Mt. 28:18; 11:27; Jn. 5:22; 17:2; 3:35; 2 Pet. 1:17)

13. Then why did he have to learn anything? (Heb. 5:8; John 5:19; 8:28)

14. Then why is speaking against him not as bad as speaking against the Holy Spirit? (Mt. 12:31,32; Luke 12:10)

15. Then why did Jesus call the "Father...the only true God"? (John 17:3)

16. Then why did he need to be saved? (Heb. 5:7; John 12:27)

17. Then why did he have to be exalted to Leader and Savior? (Acts 5:31)

18. Then how could he be exalted and given a higher name than he had? (Phil. 2:9-11; Heb. 1:2-4)

19. Then why did he have to be given life in himself? (John 5:25,26)

20. Then how can the Father be greater than he? (John 14:28)

21. Then how could Jesus be tempted by Satan when God cannot be tempted with evil? (James 1:13)

22. Then why did he worship the Father? (John 4:22)

23. Then why can he not do anything on his own? (John 5:19; 6:38)

24. Then why would he pray to anybody? (Luke 22:44; John 17:1,2; Heb. 5:7)

25. Then why do John 1:18 and 1 John 4:9 say that Jesus is God's "only BEGOTTEN Son"? ASV

26. Then how can he be God's servant? (Acts 4:26,27,30)

27. Then how could he receive strength from an angel? (Luke 22:43)

28. Then how could he be a mediator between God and man? (1 Tim. 2:5)

29. Then how could he be with God (ton theon)? (John 1:1)

30. Then how can he be God's image? (Col. 1:15; Heb. 1:3)

31. Then why is he called the agency (dia) of creation and not the Originator (ek)? (1 Cor. 8:6; John 1:1-3; Prov. 8:30; Heb. 2:10; Col. 1:15,16)

32. Then why did Jesus say GOD was "good" in a way that Jesus was not? (Mark 10:18)

33. Then why does he have an archangel's voice instead of God's voice? (1 Thess. 4:16)

34. Then why is the only "worship" given to him the same given to humans? (Heb. 1:6, cf. Mt. 18:26; Rev. 3:9 - "Proskuneo"

35. Then why do many who believe this rely on a few selected, so-called 'proof-texts' instead of the context of the consistent teaching of the entire Bible?

36. Then how could he be commanded to do anything? (John 12:49; Deut. 18:18)

37. Then why did Steven see two separate entities, GOD and Jesus, and not just one God or three persons? (Acts 7:55)

38. Then how could he be seen at GOD's right hand? (Luke 22:69; Acts 7:55; Rom. 8:34)

39. Then how could Jesus be exalted (not to become God Himself, but) to the position of the "right hand OF God"? (Acts 2:33)

40. Then why would he have to receive a revelation from God? (Rev.1:1)

41. Then why is he called God's "begotten" Son before he came to earth? (John 3:16; Gal. 4:4; 1 John 4:9)

42. Then how could he have a Father? (John 20:17)

43. Then how could he come in flesh? (1 Kings 8:27; Acts 17:24,25)

44. Then why did he not come in his own name? (John 5:41-44)

45. Then why did Jesus "come down from heaven to do" God's will and not his own will? (Luke 22:42; John 6:38; John 5:30; John 8:42)

46. Then how could he appear before GOD? (Heb. 9:24)

47. Then how could he die? Can God die? Can part of God die? (Rom. 5:10; Acts 5:30; 1 Cor. 15:3; Hab.1:12; cf. 1 Tim. 6:16; Num. 23:19; Ps. 90:2; Dan. 6:25-26)

48. Then why is it that God resurrected Jesus? (Acts 2:32)

49. Then why can we see him if "no man has seen God at any time"? (John 1:18)

50. Then why is there not one clear Scripture where Jesus is called "God the Son," (equal to those declaring "God, the Father)?

51. How is it that the Jews rounded up some false witnesses to make up lies to obtain a death sentence for Jesus, but neither the Jewish officials nor even one of these false witnesses made a claim that he was God or equally God? (Matt. 26:59-67)

52. John summed up his whole Gospel by saying that it was written that we may believe "that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God." Why is there is no mention in that summary of the entire Gospel of what would be the most important thing of all - that Jesus is God? (John 20:31)

53. How could Jesus teach in the Jewish synagogues and the temple? This would never happen if any of the authorities believed he claimed to be God (or that his followers believed such a thing). - Matt. 26:55; John 7:14, 28. Matt. 4:23.

54. How could Jesus' followers teach in Jewish synagogues after Jesus' death and for the remainder of that first century (at least)? Again, this would not have been allowed if there were any suspicion that they believed Jesus to be God. Acts 9:20; 13:5, Acts 13:13-15.


If the Holy Spirit is Almighty God...

1. Then why do quotes from Trinitarians admit that the Holy Spirit is not God but rather is a force from God?

2. Then why would Jews instructed in the Old Testament scriptures and in the teachings of John the Baptist, NOT EVEN KNOW WHAT THE HOLY SPIRIT WAS? (Acts 19:2)

3. Then why isn't the Holy Spirit given equal description in the Bible?

4. Then why didn't Jesus ever teach that the Holy Spirit was God along with the Father and Son?

5. Then why does the Bible describe the Holy Spirit as an "it"? (Is. 34:16 ASV, KJV; Numbers 11:17, 25 ASV, KJV, RSV, NRSV, AT, LB, NEB, REB, NAB, JB, NJB; and Romans 8:16, 26 in the KJV.)

6. Then why does the Bible describe the Holy Spirit as a thing that can be poured out into portions? (Acts 2:17, 18, 33; Numbers 11:17, 25)

7. Then why is the holy spirit nameless and indistinguishable from all of the other holy spirits?

8. Then why did the Council of Nicaea in 325 AD disregard the Holy Spirit as a member of the Godhead when they made Jesus 'God' in 325 AD? Why did they wait until the Council of Constantinople in 381 AD to include the Holy Spirit in the formula?

9. Then wouldn't the water and blood be persons too according to Trinitarian reasoning and 1 John 5:8?

10. Then why is the Holy Spirit sandwiched between a list of QUALITIES at 2 Cor. 6:6?

11. Then why does the NT Greek Lexicon describes the Holy Spirit as "this" at Acts 2:33?

12. Then why is it that nowhere in the Bible is the Holy Spirit ever said to be an equal member of a trinity?

13. Then why is it that nowhere is it mentioned in the Bible the words, "God, the Holy Spirit," or "The Holy Spirit is God"?

14. Then why is it that there is never mentioned a vision, dream or clear description in scripture wherein God and the Holy Spirit are shown as the same person?

If the Trinity Doctrine is a Bible teaching...

1. Then why do NUMEROUS encyclopedias agree that

"... the doctrine of the Trinity was of gradual and comparatively late formation; that it had its origin in a source entirely foreign from that of the Jewish and Christian scriptures; that it grew up, and was ingrafted on Christianity"? – p. 34, The Church of the First Three Centuries, Alvan Lamson, D.D.

2. Then why do many encyclopedias, dictionaries and other sources (including Sir Isaac Newton) agree that the "Trinity was a pagan corruption imposed on Christianity in the fourth century by Athanasius"?

3. Then why does the Bible consistently identify God by singular person pronouns: "I, "Me," "He, and "Him" instead of "We", "Us", "They" or "Them"?

4. Then why does 2 Cor. 13:14 say that the Lord Jesus Christ is one individual, the Holy Spirit is another individual (whether a person or a thing), and that "GOD" IS ANOTHER DIFFERENT INDIVIDUAL?

5. Then why is there not even one Scripture which clearly defines the Trinity?

6. Then why is there not even one Scripture of a vision, dream, or CLEAR description wherein God is shown as three persons?

7. Then why is there not even one Scripture where God is described using the word "three"?

Let me expose your weak understanding about the scriptures again

RikoduoSennin:

A man tells his friend I built this House with my own sweat/hands. Did he mean he was the one who did the bricklayer, electrical, roofing with his physical hands- TRUE or FALSE?

TRUE and FALSE!
FALSE in a sense that NO CLIENT will ever claimed to build a project WITH HIS OWN HANDS
Though we can see many figurative expression being used by individual who owns a project i.e I built it with my last kobo, I built it with my own money, I built it with my last breath e.t.c BUT NOT WITH MY OWN HANDS.

Jesus said "My Father keeps working and I work"- John 5:17, Read Proverb 8:22-30 "and I came beside him as a MASTER WORKER". Jesus did NOTHING of his own initiative- Read John 5:19,20,30;

Do you even know that Proverb 8:22-30 didn't favour your argument here as you always misapply scriptures? See the reason...also pay close attention to how the MASTER WORKER made His statement.
NB:- I will insert YHWH where He speaks so that at the end you can tell us whether YHWH is lying when He said He created EVERYTHING BY HIMSELF

22¶ Jehovah possessed me--the beginning of His way, Before His works since then.
23 From the age I was anointed, from the first, From former states of the earth.
24 In there being no depths, I was brought forth, In there being no fountains heavy with waters,
25 Before mountains were sunk, Before heights, I was brought forth.
26 While He(YHWH) had not made the earth, and out-places, And the top of the dusts of the world.
27 In His(YHWH) preparing the heavens I am there, In His(YHWH) decreeing a circle on the face of the deep,
28 In His(YHWH) strengthening clouds above, In His(YHWH) making strong fountains of the deep,
29 In His(YHWH) setting for the sea its limit, And the waters transgress not His(YHWH) command, In His(YHWH) decreeing the foundations of earth,
30 Then I am near Him, a workman, And I am a delight--day by day. Rejoicing before Him at all times, Proverb 8:22-30 YLT

John 1:3 " Everything was made THROUGH him (Jesus)" , Why was the word "through" used?

Everything was made through THE WORD OF GOD which becomes Jesus in the FLESH this is how to understand it.

Emusan:
Let me expose your weak understanding about the scriptures again



TRUE and FALSE!
FALSE in a sense that NO CLIENT will ever claimed to build a project WITH HIS OWN HANDS
Though we can see many figurative expression being used by individual who owns a project i.e I built it with my last kobo, I built it with my own money, I built it with my last breath e.t.c BUT NOT WITH MY OWN HANDS.

At bold section, you did not mention the True side. Any way since you are so fixated on the expressions (take literally) "WITH MY OWN HANDS"- please tell me this, Did Jesus/ Whoever create the Earth and Heaven use they Literal/Physical hands to create everything or used Literal words to do the creating?

Because if you says Physical hands- I like to know how Jesus became called "God's word" and our Genesis refer to Light being created by just "an uttered word".

If you say he did not physically use his hand to create everything, meaning "with my own hand" is just a figurative expression with it own meaning just like "With my own sweat".

Please enlighten me, I am willing and eager to be taught by you.

Emusan:

Do you even know that Proverb 8:22-30 didn't favour your argument here as you always misapply scriptures? See the reason...also pay close attention to how the MASTER WORKER made His statement.
NB:- I will insert YHWH where He speaks so that at the end you can tell us whether YHWH is lying when He said He created EVERYTHING BY HIMSELF

22¶ Jehovah possessed me--the beginning of His way, Before His works since then.
23 From the age I was anointed, from the first, From former states of the earth.
24 In there being no depths, I was brought forth, In there being no fountains heavy with waters,
25 Before mountains were sunk, Before heights, I was brought forth.
26 While He(YHWH) had not made the earth, and out-places, And the top of the dusts of the world.
27 In His(YHWH) preparing the heavens I am there, In His(YHWH) decreeing a circle on the face of the deep,
28 In His(YHWH) strengthening clouds above, In His(YHWH) making strong fountains of the deep,
29 In His(YHWH) setting for the sea its limit, And the waters transgress not His(YHWH) command, In His(YHWH) decreeing the foundations of earth,
30 Then I am near Him, a workman, And I am a delight--day by day. Rejoicing before Him at all times, Proverb 8:22-30 YLT

Its odd you quoted from a different bible translation that is not very common. I would have preferred KJV/NKJV.

Please look at the bold section of Verse 30, Compare that with Genesis 1:26 " LET US make man in OUR image" and John 5:17,19 "My Father is WORKING STILL, and I am WORKING....TRULY, TRULY, the Son can do NOTHING of his OWN ACCORD BUT ONLY WHAT HE SEES THE FATHER DOING; For whatever he (The Father) does that the Son does Likewise"

Two beings working together. One depends on the other before he does something while the other is the source (one cannot do he is accord but the other can). The Father is the architect While the Son is the "Master Worker"
or Agency/Medium used in Creating everything.

Emusan:

Everything was made through THE WORD OF GOD which becomes Jesus in the FLESH this is how to understand it.

So before Jesus became Flesh he was just "A Literal WORD" or "Something like A spokesman- God's word". Please which of these Apply so that I can understand how "everything was made through him".

The above statement you made left out this important question "What exaltly was "the word of God" like during creation?

RikoduoSennin:

At bold section, you did not mention the True side. Any way since you are so fixated on the expressions (take literally) "WITH MY OWN HANDS"- please tell me this, Did Jesus/ Whoever create the Earth and Heaven use they Literal/Physical hands to create everything or used Literal words to do the creating?

Because if you says Physical hands- I like to know how Jesus became called "God's word" [size=14pt]and our Genesis refer to Light being created by just "an uttered word".[/size]

If you say he did not physically use his hand to create everything, meaning "with my own hand" is just a figurative expression with it own meaning just like "With my own sweat".

Please enlighten me, I am willing and eager to be taught by you.

The TRUE is the sweat you mentioned.

Please at the bolded-So you know God created everything with His utterance...

The point isn't about physical/literal meaning of those phrases BUT direct claim by YHWH to involve in the creation which is far beyond the illustration you're trying to give.

Through out the Bible we see different part of YHWH being mentioned to involve in creation and the astonish part is that JESUS was associated with ALL these parts.

Now tell me when YHWH said He created the world with HIS POWER is it literal or real? If real The Bible says Jesus is the POWER of God, then tell me how can a created being (according to JW) be the power of God?

Its odd you quoted from a different bible translation that is not very common. I would have preferred KJV/NKJV.

This is pure misconception about me, I quote any version of the Bible including NWT.

Please look at the bold section of Verse 30, Compare that with Genesis 1:26 " LET US make man in OUR image" and John 5:17,19 "My Father is WORKING STILL, and I am WORKING....TRULY, TRULY, the Son can do NOTHING of his OWN ACCORD BUT ONLY WHAT HE SEES THE FATHER DOING; For whatever he (The Father) does that the Son does Likewise"

Two beings working together. One depends on the other before he does something while the other is the source (one cannot do he is accord but the other can). The Father is the architect While the Son is the "Master Worker" or Agency/Medium used in Creating everything.

The question to ask is why will God use a created being to assist Him in creation when He can do it ALONE (Which is what the Bible says)?
Again JW believe the phrase "Let US..." means God was talking to Angels(Plural), they do this to boycott the PLURALITY of Elohim which means the name of God contains is in PLURAL (as TRINITARIAN CLAIMED) not in SINGULAR.
Lastly, the point we are considering here is DID YHWH DIRECTLY INVOLVE IN CREATION?

Lol...the Father is the ARCHITECT but the Proverb 8:28-29 says "In His(YHWH) strengthening clouds above, In His(YHWH) making strong fountains of the deep. 29 In His(YHWH) strengthening clouds above, In His(YHWH) making strong fountains of the deep"
This is a direct action being carried out by YHWH not just DESIGN because Architect ONLY DESIGN.

Lastly, why would a CREATED BEING working with UNCREATED YHWH before the creation can be brought forth?

So before Jesus became Flesh he was just "A Literal WORD" or "Something like A spokesman- God's word". Please which of these Apply so that I can understand how "everything was made through him".
The above statement you made left out this important question "What exaltly was "the word of God" like during creation?

Nothing like SPOKEMAN as JW put it just to prove Jesus Christ is created and became God's spoke person, EVERYTHING about God can never be compared to man.
If God wants to communicate to man He can make His OWN Word audible and If He wants the same Word to be too hard for us to hear like the Israelite in the wilderness He can the truth is "The WORD of God is LIVING and sharper than any two-edge sword Heb 4:12,..."...through a word of God--living and remaining--to the age." 1 Peter 1:23

Can The Living Word of God be created?

@ Emusan ..... MODALISM PREACHER, u are here again with ur twisted arguments , answerin questions with a question as usual .

LISTEN

The book of EXODUS told us that Jehovah gave the law directly to Moses ( Exodus 20:1)

But further EVIDENCE reveal that this was done through an Angel ( Act 7:53) .

WHILE the creation account told us that Jehovah God creates the world ( Ecc 12:1)

..........Further EVIDENCE reveal that this was done " [b]Through his Son" Heb 1:1,2 [/b]

BOTH the angel in d first instance , and the Son in the second instance are CARRYIN OUT THE WILL OF God,The FATHER (Joh 6:38)

FACT BOX " God (JEHOVAH) made the universe Through his son (Jesus) " HEB 1:1,2 ! TWO DISTINCT PERSONS.

CAPTIVATOR:
@ Emusan ..... [size=14pt]MODALISM PREACHER,[/size]

Until you provide an evidence for the bolded part then I'll take you serious.

Emusan:


Until you provide an evidence for the bolded part then I'll take you serious.

MODALISM says " Jehovah Of old testament is the same Jesus of new testament" ! OPEN UR EYES AND SEE HOW UV JOINED THE MODALISM LEAGUE

Rikoduosennin
the purpose of you quoting Isaiah 40:3 was to link Jehovah who was mentioned there has the one who came in the FLESH as Jesus christ. Am I wrong?

Http: www.nairaland.com/post/30061259

Imagine that question, AND to confirm ur modalism case, u replied POSITIVELY. SAYING
:

Emusan
Yes I mean Yahweh who spoke in Isaiah 40:3 was the one we see in the FLESH

Http: www.nairaland.com/post/30106891
PROVED !



But to make urself appear as a trinitarian despite the fact that uv just proved modalism, u quickly added the phrase .

You can only get confused when you think Yahweh is ONLY the Father

.
Http: www.nairaland.com/post/30106891

WHICH is also FALSE ......

" That people May Know that YOU, Whose NAME is Jehovah , YOU ALONE is the MOST HIGH over all the earth" psalm 83:18.

THE FATHER ALONE is called "JEHOVAH ( YAHWEH)"

" You ALONE" psalm 83:18

" You ALONE" Psalm 83:18

" You ALONE" psalm 83:18

Is Jesus the Most High ?

" HE SHALL be Called SON OF the most high " Luke 1:32 !
NOT MOST HIGH but SON OF

INFACT: ANYONE MOST HIGH never have a God he is sujected under , whereas Christ will forever be subjected under the authority of THE MOST HIGH JEHOVAH, the God AND the FATHER of Christ ( 1 COR 15: 24, 28, Eph 1:3)

CAPTIVATOR:
MODALISM says " Jehovah Of old testament is the same Jesus of new testament" ! OPEN UR EYES AND SEE HOW UV JOINED THE MODALISM LEAGUE

Imagine that question, AND to confirm ur modalism case, u replied POSITIVELY. SAYING


Http: www.nairaland.com/post/30061259
PROVED !



[size=14pt]But to make urself appear as a Trinitarian[/size] despite the fact that uv just proved modalism, u quickly added the phrase .

.
Http: www.nairaland.com/post/30061259

WHICH is also FALSE ......

" That people May Know that YOU, Whose NAME is Jehovah , YOU ALONE is the MOST HIGH over all the earth" psalm 83:18.

" You ALONE" psalm 83:18

" You ALONE" Psalm 83:18

Is Jesus the Most High ?

" HE SHALL be Called SON OF the most high " Luke 1:32 !
NOT MOST HIGH but SON OF

INFACT: ANYONE MOST HIGH never have a God he is sujected under , whereas Christ will forever be subjected under the authority of THE MOST HIGH JEHOVAH, the God AND the FATHER of Christ ( 1 COR 15: 24, 28, Eph 1:3)

The bolded part is my concern and people reading that part can see how confuse you are

The truth is you FULLY UNDERSTOOD my point but just decided to twist.

The rest of your point is irrelevant to the matter on ground so swallow that up.

Now let me address your post

CAPTIVATOR:
u are here again with ur twisted arguments , answerin questions with a question as usual.

How is this your problem?

LISTEN

The book of EXODUS told us that Jehovah gave the law directly to Moses ( Exodus 20:1)

But you people say JEHOVAH never appeared in the Old Testament

But further EVIDENCE reveal that this was done through an Angel( Act 7:53).

The lie, you purposely wrote Angel (singular) but what appear in the verse is Angels (Plural)

So how many Angels gave the law?

WHILE the creation account told us that Jehovah God creates the world ( Ecc 12:1)

..........Further EVIDENCE reveal that this was done " [b]Through his Son" Heb 1:1,2[/b]

So you agree that the Hebrew scripture says it is Jehovah who created everything REMEMBER YOUR BROTHER SAID THE JEWS KNOW THAT JEHOVAH CREATED EVERYTHING through His Son.

You can only quote Ecc 12:1 whereas we have many places which spoke more than that,

Isa 43:21 "the people which I(Jehovah) formed for myself(Jehovah), that they might set forth my praise." YET everything was created for Christ.
Isa 44:24 "... I am Jehovah, that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens ALONE, that spreadeth abroad the earth (who is with me?) ASV
"...`I am Jehovah, doing all things, Stretching out the heavens by Myself, Spreading out the earth--who is with Me? YLT
"...“I am Jehovah, who made everything.I stretched out the heavens by myself, +And I spread out the earth. +Who was with me? NWT

It's either God isn't telling us the truth here or JWs are the one telling lies surely both can't be true.

BOTH the angel in d first instance , and the Son in the second instance are CARRYIN OUT THE WILL OF God,The FATHER (Joh 6:38)

ANGELS not angel
You quote John 6:38 where Jesus was supposed to be speaking about HIMSELF ALONE and you can still apply it to the Angel in the OT

FACT BOX " God (JEHOVAH) made the universe Through his son (Jesus) " HEB 1:1,2 ! TWO DISTINCT PERSONS.

TWO DISTINCT PERSONS but ONE CREATOR

Back to my question, can the LIVING word of God be created?

Emusan:


The TRUE is the sweat you mentioned.

Please at the bolded-So you know God created everything with His utterance...

The point isn't about physical/literal meaning of those phrases BUT direct claim by YHWH to involve in the creation which is far beyond the illustration you're trying to give.

Through out the Bible we see different part of YHWH being mentioned to involve in creation and the astonish part is that JESUS was associated with ALL these parts.

Now tell me when YHWH said He created the world with HIS POWER is it literal or real? If real The Bible says Jesus is the POWER of God, then tell me how can a created being (according to JW) be the power of God?

In what way is Jesus the POWER of GOd- please use scriptures.

Emusan:

This is pure misconception about me, I quote any version of the Bible including NWT.

In your haste you failed to notice that my emphasis was on YOUR USING A TRANSLATION that was not COMMON because I am well aware that you quote from different bible translation (that was why I recommended KJV/NKJV)

Emusan:

The question to ask is why will God use a created being to assist Him in creation when He can do it ALONE (Which is what the Bible says)?
Again JW believe the phrase "Let US..." means God was talking to Angels(Plural), they do this to boycott the PLURALITY of Elohim which means the name of God contains is in PLURAL (as TRINITARIAN CLAIMED) not in SINGULAR.
Lastly, the point we are considering here is DID YHWH DIRECTLY INVOLVE IN CREATION?

Whatever floats your boat.

Emusan:

Lol...the Father is the ARCHITECT but the Proverb 8:28-29 says "In His(YHWH) strengthening clouds above, In His(YHWH) making strong fountains of the deep. 29 In His(YHWH) strengthening clouds above, In His(YHWH) making strong fountains of the deep"
This is a direct action being carried out by YHWH not just DESIGN because Architect ONLY DESIGN.

Lastly, why would a CREATED BEING working with UNCREATED YHWH before the creation can be brought forth?

When you read Exodus- we see that "God" spoke to Moses- Later we read that God spoke through Angels to Moses (Middleman is included). Same way some scripture reveal the Middleman used in Creation to be Jesus.

Jesus is no ordinary creature, he was WITH God in the beginning and used according (Both were working).

Emusan:

Nothing like SPOKEMAN as JW put it just to prove Jesus Christ is created and became God's spoke person, EVERYTHING about God can never be compared to man.
If God wants to communicate to man He can make His OWN Word audible and If He wants the same Word to be too hard for us to hear like the Israelite in the wilderness He can the truth is "The WORD of God is LIVING and sharper than any two-edge sword Heb 4:12,..."...through a word of God--living and remaining--to the age." 1 Peter 1:23

Can The Living Word of God be created?

I simply ask: How is Jesus "The Word of God" literal or figuratively? And I got the above....(Sigh)...



-------------------------------------------------------------------------
It seems you are keen on making a point with JW as a whole RATHER DISCUSS WITH ME ONE ON ONE. You are making a lot of assertions I have not said nor wrote about and making an argument against this.

RikoduoSennin:
In what way is Jesus the POWER of GOd- please use scriptures.

He is the word of God Heb 4:12

In your haste you failed to notice that my emphasis was on YOUR USING A TRANSLATION that was not COMMON because I am well aware that you quote from different bible translation (that was why I recommended KJV/NKJV)

In my haste... you recommend but do you agree with KJV/NKJV?

When you read Exodus- we see that "God" spoke to Moses- Later we read that God spoke through Angels to Moses (Middleman is included). Same way some scripture reveal the Middleman used in Creation to be Jesus.

See how dubious you are, you used "GOD" not Jehovah here, is it God or Jehovah?

You and your hidden man misunderstood that acts 7:53 the verse didn't say God SPOKE through the Angels (Plural) BUT God put it into effect see how NIV put it "you who have received the law that was put into effect through angels but have not obeyed it." (NIV) Acts 7:53

Now you have agreed that it is Jehovah the Hebrew scripture says He actually did it not a representative.

Jesus is no ordinary creature, he was WITH God in the beginning and used according (Both were working).

And the same Jesus has a Fellow according to you.

I simply ask: How is Jesus "The Word of God" literal or figuratively? And I got the above....(Sigh)

It's not figurative and The word of God can not be created

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
It seems you are keen on making a point with JW as a whole RATHER DISCUSS WITH ME ONE ON ONE. You are making a lot of assertions I have not said nor wrote about and making an argument against this.

I know what they (JWs) believed is what you're proving here so it's better I confronted you with it on their behalf.
I didn't make any assertion unless you want to tell me that YOU'RE NOT A JWs and whatever I've said here is not their believe.

Emusan:


He is the word of God Heb 4:12

Literal "WORD" you mean though the words recorded at Hebrew 4:12 is not LITERAL BUT FIGURATIVE.

Emusan:

In my haste... you recommend but do you agree with KJV/NKJV?

I recommended we you a common scriptures as basics, (A scrabble is more interest if both party use one common dictionary not different dictionaries).KJV/NKJV is more like a compromise on my part, please do the same.

Emusan:

See how dubious you are, you used "GOD" not Jehovah here, is it God or Jehovah?

@bold section, you are so much in a hurry- I thought you claim to know my beliefs. If you know my beliefs, then you should know that Almighty God=Jehovah=The God of Isreal/Old testament=The Father. so there is nothing dubious about my previous statement.

Emusan:

You and your hidden man misunderstood that acts 7:53 the verse didn't say God SPOKE through the Angels (Plural) BUT God put it into effect see how NIV put it "you who have received the law that was put into effect through angels but have not obeyed it." (NIV) Acts 7:53

Well, you should have Read Acts 7:38 " This is he who was in the congregation in the wilderness WITH THE ANGEL WHO "SPOKE" TO HIM AT MOUNT SINAI AND WITH OUR FATHERS....."

Emusan:

Now you have agreed that it is Jehovah the Hebrew scripture says He actually did it not a representative.

Well, tell me what Acts 7:38 says? How did the Angel fit into the picture even after Exodus says it was God who spoke? HINT: A representative is used yet that representative is not Almighty God.

Emusan:

And the same Jesus has a Fellow according to you.

"Fellows" or "Comrades" you mean, No, Not according to me but according to Paul at Hebrews 1:9. Or do you mean to tell me such words/expression is not in your Bible?

Emusan:

It's not figurative and The word of God can not be created

So you mean Jesus is God's LITERAL SPOKEN WORD (since you said he is not Figurative). Please tell me, How can LITERAL WORD have its own CONSCIOUSNESS?

Emusan:

I know what they (JWs) believed is what you're proving here so it's better I confronted you with it on their behalf.
I didn't make any assertion unless you want to tell me that YOU'RE NOT A JWs and whatever I've said here is not their believe.

I am a JW but please stick to my written material- I am not a fan of derailment. We can't be talking of one thing and you are referring to another, it slows progression of reasoning.

RikoduoSennin:

Literal "WORD" you mean though the words recorded at Hebrew 4:12 is not LITERAL BUT FIGURATIVE.

Everything about JWs is figurative, please when God spoke in the wilderness and the Israelite couldn't withstand His voice is it figurative too?

I recommended we you a common scriptures as basics, (A scrabble is more interest if both party use one common dictionary not different dictionaries).KJV/NKJV is more like a compromise on my part, please do the same.

You word doesn't sound like recommendation in the first instance but I can't hold on to only KJV because there are some other version who used simpler and straight words than KJV. What you can only do is to check whether I quote the right verse.

@bold section, you are so much in a hurry- I thought you claim to know my beliefs. If you know my beliefs, then you should know that Almighty God=Jehovah=The God of Isreal/Old testament=The Father. so there is nothing dubious about my previous statement.

Forget about this your jumbo jumbo, YOU PURPOSELY used GOD, in which you've been using Jehovah from your previous post.

Well, you should have Read Acts 7:38 " This is he who was in the congregation in the wilderness WITH THE ANGEL WHO "SPOKE" TO HIM AT MOUNT SINAI AND WITH OUR FATHERS....."

I'm tired of teaching you Bible Ok!

Now you refer to Acts 7:38 after I've deflated you and your brother of Acts 7:53. Your initial statement was on EXODUS but the point Acts 7:38 was emphasizing on was on DEUTERONOMY if you read it from verse 37 "...A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear." and this took place many years after Moses' encountered with YHWH and before this time YHWH has already introduced an Angel which His name is on him. Though no where does the Bible recorded that The Angel Spoke with Moses on Mount Sinal likewise we can't rule out the possibility of the Angel talking with Moses on Mount Sinal.

Just continue to find representative angel for YHWH alright the onus is on you and your organization.

Well, tell me what Acts 7:38 says? How did the Angel fit into the picture even after Exodus says it was God who spoke? HINT: A representative is used yet that representative is not Almighty God.

Now you exposed yourself here what verse 38 was pointing to is not in EXODUS but in DEUTERONOMY, please was Exodus and Deuteronomy written at the same time?

Like I said keep searching for Angel that represent Yahweh and all these shits are just to support the lie that The Yahweh who spoke about Himself at Creation was actually represented by someone. SMH!!!

"Fellows" or "Comrades" you mean, No, Not according to me but according to Paul at Hebrews 1:9. Or do you mean to tell me such words/expression is not in your Bible?

In fact you suppose to just hide your face somewhere, you're the one who came with useless hierarchy here
-The Father is Almighty God
-Jesus is a Mighty God higher than Angels and Man

Now if Jesus is higher than Angel and Man can Jesus have a fellows according to your own hierarchy? this shows that you're missing the content of that Heb 1:9.

So you mean Jesus is God's LITERAL SPOKEN WORD (since you said he is not Figurative). Please tell me, How can LITERAL WORD have its own CONSCIOUSNESS?

And you think our word can be same as that of God
Is your word ALIVE?

You asked how can the literal word of God be conscious? Didn't Bible say The word of God is ALIVE, does the word ALIVE mean something to you?

I am a JW but please stick to my written material- I am not a fan of derailment. We can't be talking of one thing and you are referring to another, it slows progression of reasoning.

Likewise I'm not a fan of derailment and I stick with your written so making reference with what you believe is not a sin.