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CATHOLICS: WHAT DOES THE BIBLE SAY ABOUT PRAYING TO, OR SPEAKING TO, THE DEAD? - Religion - Nairaland

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CATHOLICS: WHAT DOES THE BIBLE SAY ABOUT PRAYING TO, OR SPEAKING TO, THE DEAD? by adeniyitheprof(m): 11:25am On Mar 04, 2015
ANSWER:
Scripture is quite clear on this subject, for in the Old Testament we see on several occasions that Israel was expressly forbidden to have any contact with those who claimed to communicate with the dead. Consider these solemn commands from Deuteronomy 18:9-11, “When you enter the land which the LORD thy God gives you, you shall not learn to imitate the detestable things of those nations. There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or daughter pass through the fire, one who uses divination, one who practices witchcraft, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer, or one who casts a spell, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead” (NASB).

There are eight things mentioned here that deal with the occult and the last three speak specifically of those who seek to consult the dead. The heathen nations that God drove out of the land practiced these abominations and God warns His people to stay clear of them. The seriousness of this sin is seen in Leviticus 20:6, “And the soul that turneth after such as have familiar spirits, and after wizards, to go a whoring after them, I will even set My face against that soul, and will cut him off from among his people.” The very act of turning to those who attempt to communicate with the dead would result in God excommunicating them from the people. The punishment for the actual spiritist, which is a séance leader, was even more pronounced, as seen in Leviticus 20:27, “A man also or woman that hath a familiar spirit, or that is a wizard, shall surely be put to death…”

We have an example of this evil practice in 1 Samuel 28. The prophet Samuel had died and King Saul, who had always sought counsel from Samuel, ordered his servants to find him a spiritist so he could talk to Samuel. Verse 7 says, “Then said Saul unto his servants, Seek me a woman that hath a familiar spirit, that I may go to her, and enquire of her.” The irony here is that prior to this Saul had, in obedience to the LORD, driven many occultists out of the land. We see this in verse 3, “And Saul had put away those that had familiar spirits, and the wizards, out of the land.” A woman was found and in verse 11 she asks Saul “Whom shall I bring up unto thee?” and Saul replied “Bring me up Samuel.” The next few verses are very instructive for when Samuel did appear the woman was shocked, teaching us that spiritists are not accustomed to seeing the true spirits of dead people. Rather, they are used to seeing “familiar spirits,” which are “demons” who impersonate the spirits of those who have died. This true account does not justify the practice of consulting the dead; God, in His sovereignty, allowed Samuel to appear to Saul in order to announce His judgment upon him for his rebellion and unbelief, yet His condemnation of trying to speak to the dead remained and it still remains today.

Perhaps a word about “praying to the dead” is in order. Though one may not employ a spiritist for this, it is still another form of trying to communicate to the dead and thus the Word of God forbids it. Besides this, what would be the purpose of praying to those who are unable to talk back to us or to help us in anyway? There are those who “pray to saints” or “pray to the Virgin Mary,” believing their prayers are not only heard, but are answered in miraculous ways. As privileged as Mary was to have been the earthly mother of Jesus, she was never prayed to while on earth and there is no indication she is to be prayed to now. I have often thought of the last mention of Mary in Scripture. We read of this in Acts 1:14, “These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with His brethren.” Instead of Mary being prayed to, she was just one of many who were praying to God as they awaited the promise of the coming of the Holy Spirit. She was a simple, lowly believer who showed her dependence on God by approaching the throne of grace as Jesus had encouraged His followers to do. [/b]Those who do seek to pray to Mary or saints say they are “mediators” between God and man, but what does Scripture say? 1 Timothy 2:5 declares, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” [b]Christ Jesus is the only “go-between,” the one and only “middleman” who can stand between God and men and communicate with both. As God, He can and does, represent God before us, and as Man He represents us before God!

IN ADDITION TO THE ABOVE ANSWER
The issue of Catholics praying to saints is one that is full of confusion. It is the official position of the Roman Catholic Church that Catholics do not pray TO saints or Mary, but rather that Catholics can ask saints or Mary to pray FOR them. The official position of the Roman Catholic Church is that asking saints for their prayers is no different than asking someone here on earth to pray for us. However, the practice of many Catholics diverges from official Roman Catholic teaching. Many Catholics do in fact pray directly to saints and/or Mary, asking them for help – instead of asking the saints and/or Mary to intercede with God for help. Whatever the case, whether a saint or Mary is being prayed to, or asked to pray, neither practice has any biblical basis.

The Bible nowhere instructs believers in Christ to pray to anyone other than God. The Bible nowhere encourages, or even mentions, believers asking individuals in heaven for their prayers. Why, then, do many Catholics pray to Mary and/or the saints, or request their prayers? Catholics view Mary and the saints as "intercessors" before God. They believe that a saint, who is glorified in Heaven, has more "direct access" to God than we do. Therefore, if a saint delivers a prayer to God, it is more effective than us praying to God directly. This concept is blatantly unbiblical. Hebrews 4:16 tells us that we, believers here on earth, can "approach the throne of grace with confidence."

First Timothy 2:5 declares, "For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus." There is no one else that can mediate with God for us. If Jesus is the ONLY mediator, that indicates Mary and the saints cannot be mediators. They cannot mediate our prayer requests to God. Further, the Bible tells us that Jesus Christ Himself is interceding for us before the Father: "Therefore He is able to save completely those who come to God through Him, because He always lives to intercede for them" (Hebrews 7:25). With Jesus Himself interceding for us, why would we need Mary or the saints to intercede for us? Whom would God listen to more closely than His Son? Romans 8:26-27 describes the Holy Spirit interceding for us. With the 2nd and 3rd members of the Trinity already interceding for us before the Father in heaven, what possible need could there be to have Mary or the saints interceding for us?

Catholics argue that praying to Mary and the saints is no different than asking someone here on earth to pray for us.
Let us examine that claim.


(1) The Apostle Paul asks other Christians to pray for him in Ephesians 6:19. Many Scriptures describe believers praying for one another (2 Corinthians 1:11; Ephesians 1:16; Philippians 1:19; 2 Timothy 1:3). The Bible nowhere mentions anyone asking for someone in heaven to pray for him. The Bible nowhere describes anyone in heaven praying for anyone on earth.

(2) The Bible gives absolutely no indication that Mary or the saints can hear our prayers. Mary and the saints are not omniscient. Even glorified in heaven, they are still finite beings with limitations. [size=14pt]How could they possibly hear the prayers of millions of people?[/size] Whenever the Bible mentions praying to or speaking with the dead, it is in the context of sorcery, witchcraft, necromancy, and divination—activities the Bible strongly condemns (Leviticus 20:27; Deuteronomy 18:10-13). In the one instance when a "saint" is spoken to, Samuel in 1 Samuel 28:7-19, Samuel is not exactly happy to be disturbed. It is clear that praying to Mary or the saints is completely different from asking someone here on earth to pray for us. One has a strong biblical basis; the other has no biblical basis whatsoever.

God does not answer prayers based on who is praying. God answers prayers based on whether they are asked according to His will (1 John 5:14-15). There is absolutely no basis or need to pray to anyone other than God alone. There is no basis for asking those who are in heaven to pray for us. Only God can hear our prayers. Only God can answer our prayers. [size=15pt]No one in heaven has any GREATER access to God's throne than we do through prayer (Hebrews 4:16).[/size]

SOURCES:
https://www.facebook.com/adeniyi.taiwo1/posts/839433679438342

http://www.gotquestions.org/prayer-saints-Mary.html

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Re: CATHOLICS: WHAT DOES THE BIBLE SAY ABOUT PRAYING TO, OR SPEAKING TO, THE DEAD? by mkpakanaodogwu(m): 11:37am On Mar 04, 2015
Booking space
Re: CATHOLICS: WHAT DOES THE BIBLE SAY ABOUT PRAYING TO, OR SPEAKING TO, THE DEAD? by pweetixandy: 12:04pm On Mar 04, 2015
Mcheeeeeeew.
Re: CATHOLICS: WHAT DOES THE BIBLE SAY ABOUT PRAYING TO, OR SPEAKING TO, THE DEAD? by Pdizzle(m): 2:17pm On Mar 04, 2015
All these protestants will put catholics matter on their head like gele. Face the God you're serving so you can make heaven.

1 Like

Re: CATHOLICS: WHAT DOES THE BIBLE SAY ABOUT PRAYING TO, OR SPEAKING TO, THE DEAD? by AK481(m): 3:59pm On Mar 04, 2015
dis one want start wetin him no fit finish.

1 Like

Re: CATHOLICS: WHAT DOES THE BIBLE SAY ABOUT PRAYING TO, OR SPEAKING TO, THE DEAD? by italo: 4:00pm On Mar 04, 2015
Catholic saints are not dead but alive.

John 11:26 and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?”

2 Likes

Re: CATHOLICS: WHAT DOES THE BIBLE SAY ABOUT PRAYING TO, OR SPEAKING TO, THE DEAD? by Nobody: 4:10pm On Mar 04, 2015
Mumu attention seeker...ask your criminal pastor what the Bible says about stealing from the poor. Anuofia!
Re: CATHOLICS: WHAT DOES THE BIBLE SAY ABOUT PRAYING TO, OR SPEAKING TO, THE DEAD? by adeniyitheprof(m): 7:02am On Mar 05, 2015
italo:
Catholic saints are not dead but alive.

John 11:26 and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?”

Yes they live but they have no greater access to God than you if you are a true child of God here on earth. Hebrews 4:16

If you can answer this question logically and from the Bible perspective, then I will really be convinced.

[size=18pt]How could Mary and other saints in Heaven possibly hear the prayers of millions of the Catholics at the same time?[/size]

I strongly believe that the ability to hear the prayers of millions at the same time is a quality that distinguishes God, the Almighty from His creatures. Even the prophets and the angels in Heaven do not possess such power....Kamari!!! Then why given such power to Mary? It is impossible!!!

PROVE ME WRONG IF YOU CAN!!! OR BETTER STILL PROVE THE BIBLE WRONG AND LET ME SEE HOW
Re: CATHOLICS: WHAT DOES THE BIBLE SAY ABOUT PRAYING TO, OR SPEAKING TO, THE DEAD? by adeniyitheprof(m): 7:13am On Mar 05, 2015
Peppyluv:
Mumu attention seeker...ask your criminal pastor what the Bible says about stealing from the poor. Anuofia!

Thank you sir. I will rather be a MUMU so as to let millions who are not aware of a great list of anomalies in the Catholic doctrines be saved than for me to be hailed or called the WISE while on earth and do nothing to save others who might be ignorant of these doctrines that take no one to God.
Re: CATHOLICS: WHAT DOES THE BIBLE SAY ABOUT PRAYING TO, OR SPEAKING TO, THE DEAD? by adeniyitheprof(m): 7:21am On Mar 05, 2015
TO THE NON-CATHOLICS, ARE YOU AWARE THAT THE CATHOLICS DO CALL MARY, THE EARTHLY MOTHER OF JESUS AS QUEEN OF HEAVEN ?

Chai Chai Chai!!!!!!!!!!!

PLEASE, SEARCH THROUGH THE BIBLE CAREFULLY FOR THE "QUEEN OF HEAVEN" AND YOU MAY BE SAD TO SEE SUCH TITLE GIVEN TO MARY.

O LORD, EVERY ALTAR THAT IS NOT YOURS, BREAK IT DOWN TO REDEEM MILLIONS FROM THE PATH OF DESTRUCTION
Re: CATHOLICS: WHAT DOES THE BIBLE SAY ABOUT PRAYING TO, OR SPEAKING TO, THE DEAD? by adeniyitheprof(m): 7:26am On Mar 05, 2015
adeniyitheprof:
TO THE NON-CATHOLICS, ARE YOU AWARE THAT THE CATHOLICS DO CALL MARY, THE EARTHLY MOTHER OF JESUS AS QUEEN OF HEAVEN ?

Chai Chai Chai!!!!!!!!!!!

PLEASE, SEARCH THROUGH THE BIBLE CAREFULLY FOR THE "QUEEN OF HEAVEN" AND YOU MAY BE SAD TO SEE SUCH TITLE GIVEN TO MARY.

O LORD, EVERY ALTAR THAT IS NOT YOURS, BREAK IT DOWN TO REDEEM MILLIONS FROM THE PATH OF DESTRUCTION


The phrase “the queen of heaven” appears in the Bible twice, both times in the book of Jeremiah.

There is no queen of heaven. There has never been a queen of heaven. There is most certainly a King of Heaven, the Lord of hosts, Jehovah. He alone rules in heaven. He does not share His rule or His throne or His authority with anyone. The idea that Mary, the mother of Jesus, is the queen of heaven has no scriptural basis whatsoever, stemming instead from proclamations of priests and popes of the Roman Catholic Church. While Mary was certainly a godly young woman greatly blessed in that she was chosen to bear the Savior of the world, she was not in any way divine, nor was she sinless, nor is she to be worshipped, revered, venerated, or prayed to.
Re: CATHOLICS: WHAT DOES THE BIBLE SAY ABOUT PRAYING TO, OR SPEAKING TO, THE DEAD? by italo: 8:44am On Mar 05, 2015
adeniyitheprof:

Yes they live but they have no greater access to God than you if you are a true child of God here on earth. Hebrews 4:16

If you can answer this question logically and from the Bible perspective, then I will really be convinced.

[size=18pt]How could Mary and other saints in Heaven possibly hear the prayers of millions of the Catholics at the same time?[/size]

I strongly believe that the ability to hear the prayers of millions at the same time is a quality that distinguishes God, the Almighty from His creatures. Even the prophets and the angels in Heaven do not possess such power....Kamari!!! Then why given such power to Mary? It is impossible!!!

PROVE ME WRONG IF YOU CAN!!! OR BETTER STILL PROVE THE BIBLE WRONG AND LET ME SEE HOW

You agree that the saints are alive...

But you think they are deaf, right?
Re: CATHOLICS: WHAT DOES THE BIBLE SAY ABOUT PRAYING TO, OR SPEAKING TO, THE DEAD? by italo: 8:48am On Mar 05, 2015
adeniyitheprof:


Thank you sir. I will rather be a MUMU so as to let millions who are not aware of a great list of anomalies in the Catholic doctrines be saved than for me to be hailed or called the WISE while on earth and do nothing to save others who might be ignorant of these doctrines that take no one to God.

If you are against Catholic doctrine, you will be against the bible.

The bible is a result of Catholic doctrine. It was compiled and canonized by the Catholic Church in 382 in Rome.

Jesus and the apostles never mentioned "Bible."

1 Like

Re: CATHOLICS: WHAT DOES THE BIBLE SAY ABOUT PRAYING TO, OR SPEAKING TO, THE DEAD? by italo: 8:50am On Mar 05, 2015
adeniyitheprof:



The phrase “the queen of heaven” appears in the Bible twice, both times in the book of Jeremiah.

There is no queen of heaven. There has never been a queen of heaven. There is most certainly a King of Heaven, the Lord of hosts, Jehovah. He alone rules in heaven. He does not share His rule or His throne or His authority with anyone. The idea that Mary, the mother of Jesus, is the queen of heaven has no scriptural basis whatsoever, stemming instead from proclamations of priests and popes of the Roman Catholic Church. While Mary was certainly a godly young woman greatly blessed in that she was chosen to bear the Savior of the world, she was not in any way divine, nor was she sinless, nor is she to be worshipped, revered, venerated, or prayed to.

Then why did God almighty give her a crown in Rev 12?

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Re: CATHOLICS: WHAT DOES THE BIBLE SAY ABOUT PRAYING TO, OR SPEAKING TO, THE DEAD? by adeniyitheprof(m): 9:09am On Mar 05, 2015
italo:


If you are against Catholic doctrine, you will be against the bible.

The bible is a result of Catholic doctrine. It was compiled and canonized by the Catholic Church in 382 in Rome.

Jesus and the apostles never mentioned "Bible."

If I am against Catholic doctrines, it means that I am against idolatry and other heresies included in the Catholic doctrines.

You, the Catholics are fond of saying that you are the ones that brought out Bible or the first church, but I believe that the words in the Holy Bible, the KJV are written from the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

Whether you are the first church or not or the church that God used to compile and spread the Bible and that does not matter at all, but remember "So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen"

STICK TO THE ISSUE ABOVE ABOUT PRAYING TO MARY AND OTHER SAINTS AND PROVE THE BIBLE WRONG IF YOU CAN

[size=20pt]How could Mary and other saints in Heaven possibly hear the prayers of millions of the Catholics at the same time?[/size]
Re: CATHOLICS: WHAT DOES THE BIBLE SAY ABOUT PRAYING TO, OR SPEAKING TO, THE DEAD? by italo: 9:52am On Mar 05, 2015
adeniyitheprof:


If I am against Catholic doctrines, it means that I am against idolatry and other heresies included in the Catholic doctrines.

You, the Catholics are fond of saying that you are the ones that brought out Bible or the first church, but I believe that the words in the Holy Bible, the KJV are written from the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

Whether you are the first church or not or the church that God used to compile and spread the Bible and that does not matter at all, but remember "So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen"

STICK TO THE ISSUE ABOVE ABOUT PRAYING TO MARY AND OTHER SAINTS AND PROVE THE BIBLE WRONG IF YOU CAN

[size=20pt]How could Mary and other saints in Heaven possibly hear the prayers of millions of the Catholics at the same time?[/size]

The Catholic Church is not just the first Church. It is the only Church.

KJV is an adulteration of the Bible. A counterfeit.

Mary and other saints can hear us because they are alive and not deaf as you want them to be.
Re: CATHOLICS: WHAT DOES THE BIBLE SAY ABOUT PRAYING TO, OR SPEAKING TO, THE DEAD? by dodoniyi: 10:07am On Mar 05, 2015
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Re: CATHOLICS: WHAT DOES THE BIBLE SAY ABOUT PRAYING TO, OR SPEAKING TO, THE DEAD? by italo: 10:15am On Mar 05, 2015
“And when he [the Lamb] had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints”--Revelation 5:8

Why does the ignorant protestant believe that saints are alive and can "hold" our prayers...but they cannot hear them?

2 Likes

Re: CATHOLICS: WHAT DOES THE BIBLE SAY ABOUT PRAYING TO, OR SPEAKING TO, THE DEAD? by adeniyitheprof(m): 10:18am On Mar 05, 2015
italo:


The Catholic Church is not just the first Church. It is the only Church.

KJV is an adulteration of the Bible. A counterfeit.

Mary and other saints can hear us because they are alive and not deaf as you want them to be.


You have not answered my question - "How could Mary and other saints in Heaven possibly hear the prayers of millions of the Catholics at the same time? because I strongly believe that the ability to hear the prayers of millions at the same time is a quality that distinguishes God, the Almighty from His creatures. Even the prophets and the angels in Heaven do not possess such power....Kamari!!! Then why given such power to Mary? It is impossible!!!"

PLEASE, ANSWER THE ABOVE QUESTIONS.

As per the Queen of Heaven, Revelations 12 and Mary, you will see my reply soon by the grace of God
Re: CATHOLICS: WHAT DOES THE BIBLE SAY ABOUT PRAYING TO, OR SPEAKING TO, THE DEAD? by adeniyitheprof(m): 10:33am On Mar 05, 2015
italo:


PLEASE READ ALL THE VERSES BEFORE REPLYING ME

Then why did God almighty give her a crown in Rev 12?


Revelation 12 - The Woman, the Child, and the Dragon

A. The woman.

1. (1) The woman is described in celestial images.
Now a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a garland of twelve stars.

(a) Now a great sign appeared: This is the first of seven signs that John relates, and is described as a great sign (mega semeion). In Revelation chapters 12, 13, and 14 the main figures of the Great Tribulation are described, and this great sign introduces the first of the seven:

*The woman, representing Israel
*The dragon, representing Satan
*The man-child, referring to Jesus
*The angel Michael, head of the angelic host
*The offspring of the woman, representing Gentiles who come to faith in the Tribulation
*The beast out of the sea, representing the antichrist
*The beast out of the earth, representing the false prophet who promotes the antichrist

(b) A woman clothed with the sun: Because John plainly says this is a sign, we don't expect this woman to appear literally on the earth. God will use this sign to communicate something to John and to us. Women often represent religious systems in Revelation.

*Jezebel is associated with a religious system of false teaching (Rev. 2:20)
*The Great Harlot is associated with false religion (Rev. 17:2)
*The Bride is associated with the church (Rev. 19:7-8 )

(c) The woman clothed with the sun in this passage has been associated with many different religious ideas. Roman Catholics claim this woman is Mary, pictured as the "Queen of Heaven." Mary Baker Eddy said she was this woman.

i. It is common in Roman Catholic art to represent Mary as standing on a crescent moon with twelve stars around her head.

(d) Scripturally, this woman clothed with the sun should be identified with Israel, according to Joseph's dream (Gen. 37:9-11). In that dream, the sun represents Jacob, the moon represents Joseph's mother Rachel, and the eleven stars are the sons of Israel which bow down to Joseph. In this sign with twelve stars, Joseph is now "among" the other tribes of Israel.

i. In other Old Testament passages, Israel (or Zion or Jerusalem) is often represented as a woman (Isa. 54:1-6, Jer. 3:20, Eze. 16:8-14, and Hos. 2:19-20)


I WILL, BY GOD'S GRACE, EXPOSE THIS CHAPTER 12 OF THE BOOK OF REVELATIONS LATER IN ONE OF MY TOPICS IN FUTURE

IF YOU REALLY DESIRE TO LEARN, THEN YOU SHOULD UNDERSTAND THE ABOVE EXPOSITION BUT IT IS NOT BY FORCE FOR YOU BELIEVE, ACCEPT OR AGREE WITH IT.

GOD BLESS YOU, BROTHER
Re: CATHOLICS: WHAT DOES THE BIBLE SAY ABOUT PRAYING TO, OR SPEAKING TO, THE DEAD? by adeniyitheprof(m): 10:49am On Mar 05, 2015
italo:
“And when he [the Lamb] had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints”--Revelation 5:8

Why does the ignorant protestant believe that saints are alive and can "hold" our prayers...but they cannot hear them?

Please, read the very verse you just posted again and again and show me where it is written that saints can hold our prayer and that they hear our prayers.

Please, you cannot come online to just post a verse that saints can hold and hear our prayers... For every verse in the Holy Bible has an exposition or explanation peculiar to it...The above verse you posted is off point or is not related at all to the PRAYERS OFFERED TO THE SAINTS OR MARY

[size=15pt]TRY AGAIN AND HARDER NEXT TIME SIR[/size]
Re: CATHOLICS: WHAT DOES THE BIBLE SAY ABOUT PRAYING TO, OR SPEAKING TO, THE DEAD? by italo: 11:27am On Mar 05, 2015
adeniyitheprof:



You have not answered my question - "How could Mary and other saints in Heaven possibly hear the prayers of millions of the Catholics at the same time? because I strongly believe that the ability to hear the prayers of millions at the same time is a quality that distinguishes God, the Almighty from His creatures. Even the prophets and the angels in Heaven do not possess such power....Kamari!!! Then why given such power to Mary? It is impossible!!!"

PLEASE, ANSWER THE ABOVE QUESTIONS.

As per the Queen of Heaven, Revelations 12 and Mary, you will see my reply soon by the grace of God

1John3
2 Beloved, we are God’s children now; what we will be has not yet been revealed. What we do know is this: when he is revealed, we will be like him, for we will see him as he is.

1Cor13
9 For we know only in part, and we prophesy only in part; 10 but when the complete comes, the partial will come to an end. 11 When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child; when I became an adult, I put an end to childish ways. 12 For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then we will see face to face. Now I know only in part; [b]then I will know fully, even as I have been fully known.

Mary and the saints are now like God and they know fully... That's how they can hear prayers.

Not like you who still reasons like a child and see dimly, according to St. Paul.

1 Like

Re: CATHOLICS: WHAT DOES THE BIBLE SAY ABOUT PRAYING TO, OR SPEAKING TO, THE DEAD? by italo: 12:12pm On Mar 05, 2015
adeniyitheprof:


Please, read the very verse you just posted again and again and show me where it is written that saints can hold our prayer and that they hear our prayers.

Please, you cannot come online to just post a verse that saints can hold and hear our prayers... For every verse in the Holy Bible has an exposition or explanation peculiar to it...The above verse you posted is off point or is not related at all to the PRAYERS OFFERED TO THE SAINTS OR MARY

[size=15pt]TRY AGAIN AND HARDER NEXT TIME SIR[/size]
The 24 elders are saints.
Re: CATHOLICS: WHAT DOES THE BIBLE SAY ABOUT PRAYING TO, OR SPEAKING TO, THE DEAD? by adeniyitheprof(m): 1:04pm On Mar 05, 2015
italo:


1John3
2 Beloved, we are God’s children now; what we will be has not yet been revealed. What we do know is this: when he is revealed, we will be like him, for we will see him as he is.

1Cor13
9 For we know only in part, and we prophesy only in part; 10 but when the complete comes, the partial will come to an end. 11 When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child; when I became an adult, I put an end to childish ways. 12 For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then we will see face to face. Now I know only in part; [b]then I will know fully, even as I have been fully known.

Mary and the saints are now like God and they know fully... That's how they can hear prayers.

Not like you who still reasons like a child and see dimly, according to St. Paul.

Has Jesus Christ appeared again OR Has the second coming of Jesus called? SMH!
But then you have NOT proved the BIBLE (not me) wrong....TRY AGAIN

If you care, study the following:

HERE IS THE OF THE EXPOSITION OF 1 JOHN 3:2

The verse 2 of Chapter 3 of the First Epistle of John talks about "The destiny of God's children."

We are God’s children now. But he has not shown us what we shall be like in the future. We know that God will change us. We will not always live as we live now. The future will be much better.
We do not yet know all the future benefits for God’s children. But one fact is certain. We shall be like Christ, the Son of God.
One day the *LORD JESUS WILL COME BACK TO TAKE HIS PEOPLE TO HEAVEN which explains when he is revealed or when he shall appear Then we shall see Jesus Christ as he is. When we see him, we shall change. All his people will change to be like him. [size=15pt]But nobody can ever be equal to him. We will not become God as he is. But we will be similar to him in character.[/size] We will live with God the Father and with the *Lord Jesus. We will never die. We will be *clean from *sin and there will be no more *sin. As Jesus is *holy, so he will make us *holy

Here is another question, HAS JESUS APPEARED OR HAS HE BEEN REVEALED? Not yet my brother

TRY AGAIN AND HARDER NEXT TIME SIR
Re: CATHOLICS: WHAT DOES THE BIBLE SAY ABOUT PRAYING TO, OR SPEAKING TO, THE DEAD? by italo: 2:19pm On Mar 05, 2015
adeniyitheprof:


Has Jesus Christ appeared again OR Has the second coming of Jesus called? SMH!
But then you have NOT proved the BIBLE (not me) wrong....TRY AGAIN

If you care, study the following:

HERE IS THE OF THE EXPOSITION OF 1 JOHN 3:2

The verse 2 of Chapter 3 of the First Epistle of John talks about "The destiny of God's children."

We are God’s children now. But he has not shown us what we shall be like in the future. We know that God will change us. We will not always live as we live now. The future will be much better.
We do not yet know all the future benefits for God’s children. But one fact is certain. We shall be like Christ, the Son of God.
One day the *LORD JESUS WILL COME BACK TO TAKE HIS PEOPLE TO HEAVEN which explains when he is revealed or when he shall appear Then we shall see Jesus Christ as he is. When we see him, we shall change. All his people will change to be like him. [size=15pt]But nobody can ever be equal to him. We will not become God as he is. But we will be similar to him in character.[/size] We will live with God the Father and with the *Lord Jesus. We will never die. We will be *clean from *sin and there will be no more *sin. As Jesus is *holy, so he will make us *holy

Here is another question, HAS JESUS APPEARED OR HAS HE BEEN REVEALED? Not yet my brother

TRY AGAIN AND HARDER NEXT TIME SIR

Jesus has been revealed to Mary and the saints.

So they are now like him...that is why they hear our prayer...like him.
Re: CATHOLICS: WHAT DOES THE BIBLE SAY ABOUT PRAYING TO, OR SPEAKING TO, THE DEAD? by adeniyitheprof(m): 3:11pm On Mar 05, 2015
italo:


Jesus has been revealed to Mary and the saints.

So they are now like him...that is why they hear our prayer...like him.

So this statement - we shall be like him - has made Mary equal to God and has also enabled her to hear all the prayers of all the Catholics at the same time?

Sarcastically, before Mary existence, may be God complained to the Catholics of tiredness or his ears being blocked to hear prayers again and that may be the reason why God created Mary to help Him hear the prayers of the millions of Catholics

SO MARY IS NOW YOUR OWN GOD THAT HEARS YOUR PRAYERS!!!!!!!!

Hahahahaha.................

REMEMBER: Praying to Mary, worshiping a standing image of Jesus Christ, Mary and Pope and others detestable doctrines (which I will expose later) will forever drive away many unbelievers from the narrow path of Jesus Christ in Holiness, Righteousness and Truth

God can never be mocked or ridiculed and can never share His glory. When one dies, his/her conscience would have judged him/her before he faces God's judgement.
Re: CATHOLICS: WHAT DOES THE BIBLE SAY ABOUT PRAYING TO, OR SPEAKING TO, THE DEAD? by italo: 10:24pm On Mar 05, 2015
adeniyitheprof:


So this statement - we shall be like him - has made Mary equal to God and has also enabled her to hear all the prayers of all the Catholics at the same time?

Sarcastically, before Mary existence, may be God complained to the Catholics of tiredness or his ears being blocked to hear prayers again and that may be the reason why God created Mary to help Him hear the prayers of the millions of Catholics

SO MARY IS NOW YOUR OWN GOD THAT HEARS YOUR PRAYERS!!!!!!!!

Hahahahaha.................

REMEMBER: Praying to Mary, worshiping a standing image of Jesus Christ, Mary and Pope and others detestable doctrines (which I will expose later) will forever drive away many unbelievers from the narrow path of Jesus Christ in Holiness, Righteousness and Truth

God can never be mocked or ridiculed and can never share His glory. When one dies, his/her conscience would have judged him/her before he faces God's judgement.

It is the God that said Mary is alive...and she is like God...and she knows fully.

If you dont believe that, go and fight God.
Re: CATHOLICS: WHAT DOES THE BIBLE SAY ABOUT PRAYING TO, OR SPEAKING TO, THE DEAD? by cyberuzo(m): 11:01pm On Mar 05, 2015
adeniyitheprof:


Has Jesus Christ appeared again OR Has the second coming of Jesus called? SMH!
But then you have NOT proved the BIBLE (not me) wrong....TRY AGAIN

If you care, study the following:

HERE IS THE OF THE EXPOSITION OF 1 JOHN 3:2

The verse 2 of Chapter 3 of the First Epistle of John talks about "The destiny of God's children."

We are God’s children now. But he has not shown us what we shall be like in the future. We know that God will change us. We will not always live as we live now. The future will be much better.
We do not yet know all the future benefits for God’s children. But one fact is certain. We shall be like Christ, the Son of God.
One day the *LORD JESUS WILL COME BACK TO TAKE HIS PEOPLE TO HEAVEN which explains when he is revealed or when he shall appear Then we shall see Jesus Christ as he is. When we see him, we shall change. All his people will change to be like him. [size=15pt]But nobody can ever be equal to him. We will not become God as he is. But we will be similar to him in character.[/size] We will live with God the Father and with the *Lord Jesus. We will never die. We will be *clean from *sin and there will be no more *sin. As Jesus is *holy, so he will make us *holy

Here is another question, HAS JESUS APPEARED OR HAS HE BEEN REVEALED? Not yet my brother

TRY AGAIN AND HARDER NEXT TIME SIR

Nice!!! I admire your intelligent arguments, the way you respond to abusive comments with logical replies and the way you respond with biblical quotes

What I dont admire is the way you changed the meaning of some biblical quptes that people replied you with.
Rev 12 was talking about a woman in labour pains giving birth to a child (JESUS) that was to rule the world. Now that was clearly Mary but some pps are not comfortable with the idea, so they change the meaning

italo:
“And when he [the Lamb] had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints”--Revelation 5:8


The above quote by italo gives CLEAR evidence of saints intercession, but you didnt bother to change the meaning of this, you just sidestepped the point because there was no argument to counter this

italo:


1John3
2 Beloved, we are God’s children now; what we will be has not yet been revealed. What we do know is this: when he is revealed, we will be like him, for we will see him as he is.

1Cor13
9 For we know only in part, and we prophesy only in part; 10 but when the complete comes, the partial will come to an end. 11 When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child; when I became an adult, I put an end to childish ways. 12 For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then we will see face to face. Now I know only in part; [b]then I will know fully, even as I have been fully known.
Mary and the saints are now like God and they know fully... That's how they can hear prayers.

And this was part of your response

adeniyitheprof:


Has Jesus Christ appeared again OR Has the second coming of Jesus called? SMH!
But then you have NOT proved the BIBLE (not me) wrong....TRY AGAIN


Where in the verses did they speak of Jesus coming again before these things happen. When we die, we meet God in heaven and join the angels and saints and become like them. Dont think that we would lie in the grave till the trumpet blows. Moses and Elijah appeared to Jesus at Mt Tabor in the transfiguration
Re: CATHOLICS: WHAT DOES THE BIBLE SAY ABOUT PRAYING TO, OR SPEAKING TO, THE DEAD? by adeniyitheprof(m): 1:39am On Mar 06, 2015
italo:


It is the God that said Mary is alive...and she is like God...and she knows fully.

If you dont believe that, go and fight God.

Hahahahahaha......

Because of "WE SHALL BE LIKE HIM" found in 1 John 3:2, you have concluded that Mary should be prayed to and that she hears your prayers.

Do you know what? You and other Catholics do prove to me that the level of one's education is never a yardstick to understand the Bible (which is definitely not) and that it takes the grace of God to understand and accept God's standards - Holiness, Truth and Righteousness and to discard the worldly or strange traditions or doctrines in this present generation of diverse perversions.

The way and manner you have justified your prayers to Mary has also justified the strange doctrines of some churches that do pray to some angels or call on some angels like Angel Michael, Angel Gabriel, Angel this , angel that...SMH

Truly, it takes the grace of God to be saved because you should have understood and changed your ways if truly you studied ( and not mere reading like that of newspapers) my very first answers or posts.

Let assume to be true your interpretation of "WE SHALL BE LIKE HIM" which justifies your action of praying to Mary. Then ponder on the following:

(*) HIM is referring to Jesus Christ who is our Lord (Agreed)

(*) WE is referring to the sons of God. John who used this pronoun is also included. 1 John 3:1-2 (Agreed)

(*) Then, who are the sons of God? Or who are the other sons of God aside from John who was speaking in 1 John 3:2. The sons of God are those who have given their lives and totality unto Jesus Christ through the redemption from sins and the nature of the first Adam, who allow Him abide in them through the Holy Spirit, who truly loves God and their neighbours, who obey and preach the perfect teachings of Jesus Christ for the salvation of the lost and the dying souls (Agreed)

(*) WE which repesents the sons of God should include John, all the apostles of Christ, even Mary, the earthly mother of Jesus and many other people either in Heaven or those who are called sons of God on the earth now and may be with Christ after their death. (Agreed)

(*) WE SHALL BE LIKE HIM in 1 John 3:2. So, after Christ has been revealed, WE SHALL BE LIKE HIM. (Agreed)

(*) Since you and other catholics brought in 1 John 3:2 as the reason why Mary should be prayed to (Remember: Mary cannot represent WE alone, so Mary is apart of them), that means Mary, all the apostles of Christ, and other people who truly are the sons of God whom Christ shall appear to and because WE SHALL BE LIKE HIM should be prayed to and they hear your prayers.......hahahahaha!!!
This is seriously unbelivable. Chai!!! God! Have Mercy oooo Hey!

Sarcastically, so God cannot do His job again to hear prayers and thus, He needs the help of Mary and other saints. If the sons of God who are on earth now die, they too will be hearing prayers of those on earth.....IT IS TRULY A BLASPHEMY.

Just reason about all these things.

However my brother, read what Jesus said in Luke 16:15

"And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men: but God knoweth your hearts: for THAT which is HIGHYLY ESTEEMED among men is ABOMINATION in the sight of God"

JESUS CHRIST IS LORD, THE ONLY MEDIATOR AND HEAVENLY INTERCESSOR BETWEEN GOD AND MAN (meaning: if any man wants God to hear him and to forgive him, he only needs to speak to God through the grace in Jesus ALONE and WE SHOULD NOT PRAY TO ANYONE or CREATURE here on earth or in Heaven) Hebrews 10:19 says "Having therefore, brethren, BOLDNESS to enter into the HOLIEST by the blood of Jesus" and this verse is buttressed further in Hebrews 4:16

JESUS ONLY IS OUR MESSAGE!

Not JESUS AND MARY ARE OUR MAESSAGE!

Not JESUS AND SOME ANGELS ARE OUR MESSAGE!

But JESUS ONLY IS MY MESSAGE
Re: CATHOLICS: WHAT DOES THE BIBLE SAY ABOUT PRAYING TO, OR SPEAKING TO, THE DEAD? by adeniyitheprof(m): 3:01am On Mar 06, 2015
cyberuzo:


Nice!!! I admire your intelligent arguments, the way you respond to abusive comments with logical replies and the way you respond with biblical quotes

What I dont admire is the way you changed the meaning of some biblical quptes that people replied you with.
Rev 12 was talking about a woman in labour pains giving birth to a child (JESUS) that was to rule the world. Now that was clearly Mary but some pps are not comfortable with the idea, so they change the meaning


The above quote by italo gives CLEAR evidence of saints intercession, but you didnt bother to change the meaning of this, you just sidestepped the point because there was no argument to counter this



And this was part of your response



Where in the verses did they speak of Jesus coming again before these things happen. When we die, we meet God in heaven and join the angels and saints and become like them. Dont think that we would lie in the grave till the trumpet blows. Moses and Elijah appeared to Jesus at Mt Tabor in the transfiguration



As per the Rev 12, it is definitely not Mary and do not need to argue about that. Please open your Bible and study (not just read on Nairaland) the many times in the Bible where Israel, Zion or Jerusalem is represented as woman (Isa 54:1-6, Jer 3:20, Eze 16:8-14 and Hos 2:19-20).

Because John plainly says this is a SIGN, we don't expect this woman to appear literally on earth. God will use this SIGN to communicate something to John and to us.

The Bible says "upon her head a crown of twelve stars", what do the TWELVE STARS represent to you if you say Mary is the woman and you should relate your answer to the chapter. The TWELVE STARS are the tribes of Israel which, in the old testament, is related to JOSEPH's dream in Gen 37:9-11.

If I really want to explain in details the Chapter 12 of the book of Revelations, I will need to create another thread for it and that will be later by God's grace.

The book of Revelations is not to be read and interpreted like textbooks or newspapers because many things in this book represent great symbols and signs which takes the grace and the Spirit of God to interpret them.

For example, in Rev 5:6, we read that the slain Lamb is having (SEVEN HORNS) and (SEVEN EYES).

Literally or to a lay man, it is impossible or such Lamb is an evil one because how could a Lamb have Seven Horns and Seven Eyes but they are really great signs which represent something else entirely. Hmm!

As per Rev 5:8, the interpretation given by the brother is not correct sir.
If you say that the FOUR and TWENTY elders are the saints like Mary and other saints of Christ, why are they having the prayers of the saints again? Which saints again? Why and how was Mary singled out of the 24 elders (as you agree that Mary is part of the elders) and Catholics decided to pray to her? Scripturally, can a woman become an elder?

Wow! Book of revelation is really a book of mysteries which the inspiration and the power of Holy Spirit to expose accurately.
Re: CATHOLICS: WHAT DOES THE BIBLE SAY ABOUT PRAYING TO, OR SPEAKING TO, THE DEAD? by italo: 7:38am On Mar 06, 2015
adeniyitheprof:


Hahahahahaha......

Because of "WE SHALL BE LIKE HIM" found in 1 John 3:2, you have concluded that Mary should be prayed to and that she hears your prayers.

Do you know what? You and other Catholics do prove to me that the level of one's education is never a yardstick to understand the Bible (which is definitely not) and that it takes the grace of God to understand and accept God's standards - Holiness, Truth and Righteousness and to discard the worldly or strange traditions or doctrines in this present generation of diverse perversions.

The way and manner you have justified your prayers to Mary has also justified the strange doctrines of some churches that do pray to some angels or call on some angels like Angel Michael, Angel Gabriel, Angel this , angel that...SMH

Truly, it takes the grace of God to be saved because you should have understood and changed your ways if truly you studied ( and not mere reading like that of newspapers) my very first answers or posts.

Let assume to be true your interpretation of "WE SHALL BE LIKE HIM" which justifies your action of praying to Mary. Then ponder on the following:

(*) HIM is referring to Jesus Christ who is our Lord (Agreed)

(*) WE is referring to the sons of God. John who used this pronoun is also included. 1 John 3:1-2 (Agreed)

(*) Then, who are the sons of God? Or who are the other sons of God aside from John who was speaking in 1 John 3:2. The sons of God are those who have given their lives and totality unto Jesus Christ through the redemption from sins and the nature of the first Adam, who allow Him abide in them through the Holy Spirit, who truly loves God and their neighbours, who obey and preach the perfect teachings of Jesus Christ for the salvation of the lost and the dying souls (Agreed)

(*) WE which repesents the sons of God should include John, all the apostles of Christ, even Mary, the earthly mother of Jesus and many other people either in Heaven or those who are called sons of God on the earth now and may be with Christ after their death. (Agreed)

(*) WE SHALL BE LIKE HIM in 1 John 3:2. So, after Christ has been revealed, WE SHALL BE LIKE HIM. (Agreed)

(*) Since you and other catholics brought in 1 John 3:2 as the reason why Mary should be prayed to (Remember: Mary cannot represent WE alone, so Mary is apart of them), that means Mary, all the apostles of Christ, and other people who truly are the sons of God whom Christ shall appear to and because WE SHALL BE LIKE HIM should be prayed to and they hear your prayers.......hahahahaha!!!
This is seriously unbelivable. Chai!!! God! Have Mercy oooo Hey!

Sarcastically, so God cannot do His job again to hear prayers and thus, He needs the help of Mary and other saints. If the sons of God who are on earth now die, they too will be hearing prayers of those on earth.....IT IS TRULY A BLASPHEMY.

Just reason about all these things.

However my brother, read what Jesus said in Luke 16:15

"And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men: but God knoweth your hearts: for THAT which is HIGHYLY ESTEEMED among men is ABOMINATION in the sight of God"

JESUS CHRIST IS LORD, THE ONLY MEDIATOR AND HEAVENLY INTERCESSOR BETWEEN GOD AND MAN (meaning: if any man wants God to hear him and to forgive him, he only needs to speak to God through the grace in Jesus ALONE and WE SHOULD NOT PRAY TO ANYONE or CREATURE here on earth or in Heaven) Hebrews 10:19 says "Having therefore, brethren, BOLDNESS to enter into the HOLIEST by the blood of Jesus" and this verse is buttressed further in Hebrews 4:16

JESUS ONLY IS OUR MESSAGE!

Not JESUS AND MARY ARE OUR MAESSAGE!

Not JESUS AND SOME ANGELS ARE OUR MESSAGE!

But JESUS ONLY IS MY MESSAGE

If you can ask your earthly sinful mother who according to St. Paul reasons like a child and cannot see clearly...to pray for you...

...then Catholics should ask their heavenly mother...who is now like God and knows fully to pray for us.

No epistle you write can negate this.
Re: CATHOLICS: WHAT DOES THE BIBLE SAY ABOUT PRAYING TO, OR SPEAKING TO, THE DEAD? by italo: 7:45am On Mar 06, 2015
adeniyitheprof:



As per the Rev 12, it is definitely not Mary and do not need to argue about that. Please open your Bible and study (not just read on Nairaland) the many times in the Bible where Israel, Zion or Jerusalem is represented as woman (Isa 54:1-6, Jer 3:20, Eze 16:8-14 and Hos 2:19-20).

Because John plainly says this is a SIGN, we don't expect this woman to appear literally on earth. God will use this SIGN to communicate something to John and to us.

The Bible says "upon her head a crown of twelve stars", what do the TWELVE STARS represent to you if you say Mary is the woman and you should relate your answer to the chapter. The TWELVE STARS are the tribes of Israel which, in the old testament, is related to JOSEPH's dream in Gen 37:9-11.

If I really want to explain in details the Chapter 12 of the book of Revelations, I will need to create another thread for it and that will be later by God's grace.

The book of Revelations is not to be read and interpreted like textbooks or newspapers because many things in this book represent great symbols and signs which takes the grace and the Spirit of God to interpret them.

For example, in Rev 5:6, we read that the slain Lamb is having (SEVEN HORNS) and (SEVEN EYES).

Literally or to a lay man, it is impossible or such Lamb is an evil one because how could a Lamb have Seven Horns and Seven Eyes but they are really great signs which represent something else entirely. Hmm!

As per Rev 5:8, the interpretation given by the brother is not correct sir.
If you say that the FOUR and TWENTY elders are the saints like Mary and other saints of Christ, why are they having the prayers of the saints again? Which saints again? Why and how was Mary singled out of the 24 elders (as you agree that Mary is part of the elders) and Catholics decided to pray to her? Scripturally, can a woman become an elder?

Wow! Book of revelation is really a book of mysteries which the inspiration and the power of Holy Spirit to expose accurately.

Rev 5 8 is clear proof of saints intercession. The elders are saints in heaven...carrying the prayers of saints on earth.

If the 24 elders are not saints, what are they?

Demons?

Also, what is the name of the woman that was pregnant and gave birth to Jesus?

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