This is actually a very simple question I want to ask…, hope to get some intelligent answers. Oft times when a person claims not to believe in God they resort to this argument. They say look around you, who do think made the stars, the clouds, human beings etc. Since these things exist then “our” God must be real. This claim is common with Christians, Muslims or “religious” persons. I don’t really understand this claim. How do you take the leap from I don’t know where this thing came from……. to hence my God must exist. The other angle taken a lot is that “I know that God exists because of certain things that have happened to me personally”. This is even funnier because anyone from any other religion can claim God exists from the personal experiences he/she has had in life.

Next, when the Muslim and Christian agree that God exists isn’t that extremely laughable. Two persons with widely contrasting views of “God” both arguing for his existence. Perhaps the first step should be a universally accepted definition of who “God” is.

Lastly I feel that even though the term “atheist” is thrown about a lot in the forum, does there really exist a true one? The creation of everything we can perceive is largely a mystery to all of us. That there is probably a lot more we cannot perceive is quite possible and that there is a force behind creation is a real possibility. I doubt if many “atheists” would deny this.

This question really is that how does this admission of lack of knowledge lead to belief in Koranic, Biblical Gods? Instead of bending over backwards to make the stories of these religions seem tenable can we not simply admit that we do not know everything about our existence? Would love to hear your comments.

Tasma:

This is actually a very simple question I want to ask…, hope to get some intelligent answers. Oft times when a person claims not to believe in God they resort to this argument. They say look around you, who do think made the stars, the clouds, human beings etc. Since these things exist then “our” God must be real. This claim is common with Christians, Muslims or “religious” persons. I don’t really understand this claim. How do you take the leap from I don’t know where this thing came from……. to hence my God must exist.

   If you have a better theory as to who created the universe, how and why I would love to hear it

  The other angle taken a lot is that “I know that God exists because of certain things that have happened to me personally”. This is even funnier because anyone from any other religion can claim God exists from the personal experiences he/she has had in life.

  There is nuthin outlandish about building ones belief system based on things that have happened to them. We all interpret the world around us based on the knowledge and understanding we've acquired thruout our lives. I understand you say "then 'God' will be different according to each person"  true.

  Now will they be wrong sometimes? yes. All the time? perhaps. But still, its not illogical to apply ones experiences as a means to understanding the world around them.

Next, when the Muslim and Christian agree that God exists isn’t that extremely laughable. Two persons with widely contrasting views of “God” both arguing for his existence. Perhaps the first step should be a universally accepted definition of who “God” is.

  Impossible. Both groups (and thousands more) differ in their accepted ideological definition & character of God, so much so that there can be no reconciliation btw the two.

Lastly I feel that even though the term “atheist” is thrown about a lot in the forum, does there really exist a true one? The creation of everything we can perceive is largely a mystery to all of us. That there is probably a lot more we cannot perceive is quite possible and that there is a force behind creation is a real possibility. I doubt if many “atheists” would deny this.

 
lol, you give the atheists too much credit.
I'm glad though that you've left open the possibility of an intelligent designer. I see that your beef is with when anyone says with "certainity" that their God is the culprit responsible for the universe.

This question really is that how does this admission of lack of knowledge lead to belief in Koranic, Biblical Gods? Instead of bending over backwards to make the stories of these religions seem tenable can we not simply admit that we do not know everything about our existence? Would love to hear your comments.

  Brotha we could simply throw up our hands and say why bother? we can never know. That is not entirely an unreasonable position. But you are forgetting one central thing:

FAITH. It is only by faith (with the absence of evidence or proof) any of us believers can say God is real and that He created all the universe. So its not a "bending over backwards to make up stories", it is an intangible belief in the heart that these things are even though we cannot prove it.

Tasma:

This is actually a very simple question I want to ask…, hope to get some intelligent answers. Oft times when a person claims not to believe in God they resort to this argument. They say look around you, who do think made the stars, the clouds, human beings etc. Since these things exist then “our” God must be real. This claim is common with Christians, Muslims or “religious” persons. I don’t really understand this claim. How do you take the leap from I don’t know where this thing came from……. to hence my God must exist.

The problem is that the creation story in the bible and the koran is very ridiculous and incoherent, there are so many things wrong with it but let us just take a look at one or two from the bible (my koran is not here but i will show of of the ridiculous assertions about its own creation story when I get home.)

On the second day

Gen 1:9 And God said, Let the waters under the heavens be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.

Gen 1:10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.

Gen 1:11 And God said, Let the earth put forth grass, herbs yielding seed, [and] fruit-trees bearing fruit after their kind, wherein is the seed thereof, upon the earth: and it was so.

Gen 1:12 And the earth brought forth grass, herbs yielding seed after their kind, and trees bearing fruit, wherein is the seed thereof, after their kind: and God saw that it was good.

And the story continues till the end of creation and how God rested.

Gen 2:2 And on the seventh day God finished his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.

Gen 2:3 And God blessed the seventh day, and hallowed it; because that in it he rested from all his work which God had created and made.

Gen 2:4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that Jehovah God made earth and heaven. (What does this mean? generations of heaven and earth when they were created in the day God made them? what is this? )

OK now here is the problem.

Gen 2:5 And no plant of the field was yet in the earth, and no herb of the field had yet sprung up; for Jehovah God had not caused it to rain upon the earth: and there was not a man to till the ground.

In Gen 1:11 And God said, Let the earth put forth grass, herbs yielding seed, [and] fruit-trees bearing fruit after their kind, wherein is the seed thereof, upon the earth: and it was so.

Gen 1:12 And the earth brought forth plants, herbs yielding seed after their kind, and trees bearing fruit, wherein is the seed thereof, after their kind: and God saw that it was good.

When did plants grow on the earth? on the second day or after the entire creation? Genesis 1:11 said on the second day of creation, while genesis 2:5 said after the entire creation because the bibleGod had not yet caused it to rain and because there was no man to till the ground. Is that really how the world was created? 

Genesis 1:27

So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

But before this verse it was "Let us create man in our image", and not "his own image". Which is it? His image, or "our" image, in reference to the quote before the above?

Some Christians could argue that Jesus existed already before he had been born hence It could be that the bibleGod was talking to him at that time. But even without me believing all that, it still sounds farfetched.

JeSoul:

   If you have a better theory as to who created the universe, how and why I would love to hear it

  There is nuthin outlandish about building ones belief system based on things that have happened to them. We all interpret the world around us based on the knowledge and understanding we've acquired thruout our lives. I understand you say "then 'God' will be different according to each person"  true.

  Now will they be wrong sometimes? yes. All the time? perhaps. But still, its not illogical to apply ones experiences as a means to understanding the world around them.
  Impossible. Both groups (and thousands more) differ in their accepted ideological definition & character of God, so much so that there can be no reconciliation btw the two.
 
lol, you give the atheists too much credit.
I'm glad though that you've left open the possibility of an intelligent designer. I see that your beef is with when anyone says with "certainity" that their God is the culprit responsible for the universe.
  Brotha we could simply throw up our hands and say why bother? we can never know. That is not entirely an unreasonable position. But you are forgetting one central thing:

FAITH. It is only by faith (with the absence of evidence or proof) any of us believers can say God is real and that He created all the universe. So its not a "bending over backwards to make up stories", it is an intangible belief in the heart that these things are even though we cannot prove it.

Well as you may have picked up from my post my argument is not about the possibility of the existence of an intelligent designer. That's a possibility. My argument is whether this designer is necessarily the God described by many established religions. If you choose to be religious and you enjoy the lifestyle and emotional benefits, all well and good. Can you however deduce from your experiences that your definition of God is true and everyone else is wrong and misguided?

bindex:

The problem is that the creation story in the bible and the koran is very ridiculous and incoherent, there are so many things wrong with it but let us just take a look at one or two from the bible (my koran is not here but i will show of of the ridiculous assertions about its own creation story when I get home.)

On the second day

Gen 1:9 And God said, Let the waters under the heavens be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.

Gen 1:10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.

Gen 1:11 And God said, Let the earth put forth grass, herbs yielding seed, [and] fruit-trees bearing fruit after their kind, wherein is the seed thereof, upon the earth: and it was so.

Gen 1:12 And the earth brought forth grass, herbs yielding seed after their kind, and trees bearing fruit, wherein is the seed thereof, after their kind: and God saw that it was good.

And the story continues till the end of creation and how God rested.

Gen 2:2 And on the seventh day God finished his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.

Gen 2:3 And God blessed the seventh day, and hallowed it; because that in it he rested from all his work which God had created and made.

Gen 2:4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that Jehovah God made earth and heaven. (What does this mean? generations of heaven and earth when they were created in the day God made them? what is this? )

OK now here is the problem.

Gen 2:5 And no plant of the field was yet in the earth, and no herb of the field had yet sprung up; for Jehovah God had not caused it to rain upon the earth: and there was not a man to till the ground.

In Gen 1:11 And God said, Let the earth put forth grass, herbs yielding seed, [and] fruit-trees bearing fruit after their kind, wherein is the seed thereof, upon the earth: and it was so.

Gen 1:12 And the earth brought forth plants, herbs yielding seed after their kind, and trees bearing fruit, wherein is the seed thereof, after their kind: and God saw that it was good.

When did plants grow on the earth? on the second day or after the entire creation? Genesis 1:11 said on the second day of creation, while genesis 2:5 said after the entire creation because the bibleGod had not yet caused it to rain and because there was no man to till the ground. Is that really how the world was created? 

Genesis 1:27

So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

But before this verse it was "Let us create man in our image", and not "his own image". Which is it? His image, or "our" image, in reference to the quote before the above?

Some Christians could argue that Jesus existed already before he had been born hence It could be that the bibleGod was talking to him at that time. But even without me believing all that, it still sounds farfetched.

Well most religions encourage you to believe first and then all things will be made clear. Problem is after the faith few "believers" are ready or willing to question or even investigate the history and basic tenets of their religions.

Tasma:

Well most religions encourage you to believe first and then all things will be made clear. Problem is after the faith few "believers" are ready or willing to question or even investigate the history and basic tenets of their religions.

The words of Jehovah, Allah, Buddah, Yaweh etc are the final truth regardless of how outlandish they sound.Men can never understand God is always the outlandish excuse.

Tasma:

Well as you may have picked up from my post my argument is not about the possibility of the existence of an intelligent designer. That's a possibility. My argument is whether this designer is necessarily the God described by many established religions. If you choose to be religious and you enjoy the lifestyle and emotional benefits, all well and good. Can you however deduce from your experiences that your definition of God is true and everyone else is wrong and misguided?

  Good question. And I give you the same answer: Faith. The bible teaches that Faith is all the evidence and proof that a christian needs that God is.

Now, can I prove that my faith is the right faith? NO. So to answer your question there's no way I can definitively show you that 'my' God is the right one. Christianity and the gospel of Jesus was never meant to be proven, but simply believed and accepted by faith. And then God reveals Himself to the person in a unique and intimate way that they become assured of the path that they walk.

That's why the pursuit of the knowledge and understanding of God is a very personal journey. I cannot show you, you have to search it out and discover what the truth is for yourself. I hope this answers your question.

Tasma:

Well most religions encourage you to believe first and then all things will be made clear. Problem is after the faith few "believers" are ready or willing to question or even investigate the history and basic tenets of their religions.

  Christianity does not encourage complacency and blind zombie-like belief. Infact as you read thru the NT we see so many instances were we're taught to study, search out, investigate and to use wisdom before believing anything.

But you are right in that the vast majority of so-called converts never take the time to really understand what it is they're supposedly converting to.

JeSoul:

Christianity does not encourage complacency and blind zombie-like belief. Infact as you read thru the NT we see so many instances were we're taught to study, search out, investigate and to use wisdom before believing anything. But you are right in that the vast majority of so-called converts never take the time to really understand what it is they're supposedly converting to.

The bible encourages Christains to search, study and investigate through the pages of the scripture alone. Remember when paul warned people not to believe philosophers and wise men who will tell christains lies and derail them from the faith?

bindex:

The bible encourages Christains to search, study and investigate through the pages of the scripture alone. Remember when paul warned people not to believe philosophers and wise men who will tell christains lies and derail them from the faith?

Oga Bindex  I agree 99% with your statement above.
The bible teaches to reject any teaching or philosophy that contradicts and denies the Lordship of Jesus and the character of God as taught in the bible. It doesn't teach to study the bible alone. There are many non-christian philosophers that have lived that have taught and speculated things consistent with the scriptures, and even today.

So it doesn't necessarily mean "not in the bible = reject it"

All religions cannot be right can they? all philosophers cannot be correct about their world view can they? you will accept one teaching and reject another.
And we come right back to the thing I keep harping on: Faith.
Faith that the bible and Jesus is real and confirmation from personal experiences and internal assurances from ones heart and spirit. Now like I said before I cannot prove to you or anyone 'my' faith is the right one, the quest for the knowledge of God is a personal one, and can only be answered personally.

JeSoul:



Oga Bindex I agree 99% with your statement above.
The bible teaches to reject any teaching or philosophy that contradicts and denies the Lordship of Jesus and the character of God as taught in the bible. It doesn't teach to study the bible alone. There are many non-christian philosophers that have lived that have taught and speculated things consistent with the scriptures, and even today.

So it doesn't necessarily mean "not in the bible = reject it"

All religions cannot be right can they? all philosophers cannot be correct about their world view can they? you will accept one teaching and reject another.
And we come right back to the thing I keep harping on: Faith.
Faith that the bible and Jesus is real and confirmation from personal experiences and internal assurances from ones heart and spirit. Now like I said before I cannot prove to you or anyone 'my' faith is the right one, the quest for the knowledge of God is a personal one, and can only be answered personally.

If all religious people were like you then we would'nt be having a lot of problems in the world. The problem I have is when so many people around just look at you and decide to hate you just because you disbelieve in something they themselves espouse as facts but can not proof. Its funny because they only possess little or no understanding about that which they strongly espouse.

Jesoul long time, how body?
Can you iterate the steps one has to go through before the personal experience i.e. Read the bible, have faith and so on. Just arrange them in the right order.
Cheers

JeSoul:

  Good question. And I give you the same answer: Faith. The bible teaches that Faith is all the evidence and proof that a christian needs that God is.

Now, can I prove that my faith is the right faith? NO. So to answer your question there's no way I can definitively show you that 'my' God is the right one. Christianity and the gospel of Jesus was never meant to be proven, but simply believed and accepted by faith. And then God reveals Himself to the person in a unique and intimate way that they become assured of the path that they walk.

That's why the pursuit of the knowledge and understanding of God is a very personal journey. I cannot show you, you have to search it out and discover what the truth is for yourself. I hope this answers your question.

A mature outlook in the topic. Few "Christians" would take the same posture. However the point still stands that its possible that the God you believe in may not be real. I'm talking from a purely psychological point of view. If anyone is well devoted to a faith, follows that faith with dedication and belief he/she is bound to "see" things in his life that he would look on as blessings from his God. What produces this results in the devotees life, the actual existence of his God or the process of being a faithful follower of a doctrine?

@tasma
Jesoul is a very very mature christian. To touch on a point you made. The psychology of religion is pretty dense but lets try and look at this issue deductively.
Facts
1.Almost all races and tribes in this world has a concept of God, or gods. From greek mythology to fejokwu the god of the land, the similarities are all striking.
Conclusion
They cannot all be right, but they can all be wrong.
Fact
2. Most Gods were created because of physical phenomena that could not be understood then. Again from greek mythology all the way to the Sango, the similarities are very glaring.
Conclusion
We all know what causes thunder and famine, we know definitely that those Gods do not exist.
Fact
3. The monotheistic religions were spread around the world by very powerful countries e.g the romans spreading christianity as they realised it was a really good tool to control people and then they branded polytheistic practices as pagan.
Conclusion
It does not make theirs any more valid than the religion practiced by the rain forest people in south america.
And finally
If we are all given two weeks of every religion by our parents while we were growing up nearly all of us would be atheists by now, the rest would be pretty much agnostic.

Atheism seemed to have moved beyond the point of denying there isn't a spiritual dimension.
Modern medicine has made it possible to resuscitate an untold number of clinically dead patients and they came back with somewhat similar 'good' and 'evil' experiences,labelling the encounter 'unbelievable',and this includes high-ranking military men and Oxford professors. There has been extensive scientific research into clinical death experiences and out-of-body experiences,with a vast number of documented cases and books on the subject from some of the world's leading psychiatrists,psychologists,doctors and reseachers. Most of them were atheists but the undenyable proof of the 'other world' converted most from atheism to New Age and Omega. From Carl Jung to Elizabeth Kubler Ross,prominent Yale and Harvard professors and scientists, they conducted research into death and spirituality,were astonished to discover there is a dimension invisible to the physcial eyes, but this led them into the occult,stuff practiced by the ancients and which still works,apparently. 

It's interesting that in ages past where vast geographical distances separated nations and tribes,they somehow managed to come up with gods of staggeringly similar descriptions and attributes.

Information on scientific research into the after life are plentiful. I could list a hundred books and articles on the subject from modern scientists. You'd be surprised at the number of people that have experienced it, and almost anyone who's been at a deathbed will recount something bizarre the dead person saw or said moments before death. A spiritual dimension exists and there is more to life than what your five senses present you with. It puts the question of whether God and other spiritual entities exist in a whole new light.

Mad_Max:

Atheism seemed to have moved beyond the point of denying there isn't a spiritual dimension.
Modern medicine has made it possible to resuscitate an untold number of clinically dead patients and they came back with somewhat similar 'good' and 'evil' experiences,labelling the encounter 'unbelievable',and this includes high-ranking military men and Oxford professors. There has been extensive scientific research into clinical death experiences and out-of-body experiences,with a vast number of documented cases and books on the subject from some of the world's leading psychiatrists,psychologists,doctors and reseachers. Most of them were atheists but the undenyable proof of the 'other world' converted most from atheism to New Age and Omega. From Carl Jung to Elizabeth Kubler Ross,prominent Yale and Harvard professors and scientists, they conducted research into death and spirituality,were astonished to discover there is a dimension invisible to the physcial eyes, but this led them into the occult,stuff practiced by the ancients and which still works,apparently. 

There are also many clinically dead patients that have been resuscitated and never saw or experienced anything all. Christians, Moslems, Hindus etc that have experienced the so called out of body experiences all witnessed what their beliefs told them will happen when they die, Moslems see Mohammad the Moslem heaven Moslem angels etc while Christians see Jesus, Christians heaven and the angels etc. What does that tell you about the so called out of body experience?

It's interesting that in ages past where vast geographical distances separated nations and tribes,they somehow managed to come up with gods of staggeringly similar descriptions and attributes.

What are the similar description of Zeus, Brahma and Jehovah? What about Allah and Sango? do their share any similar description? Do the Chinese Gods have the same attributes with Allah or the shirk Gods?

bindex:

There are also many clinically dead patients that have been resuscitated and never saw or experienced anything all. Christians, Moslems, Hindus etc that have experienced the so called out of body experiences all witnessed what their beliefs told them will happen when they die, Moslems see Mohammad the Moslem heaven Moslem angels etc while Christians see Jesus, Christians heaven and the angels etc. What does that tell you about the so called out of body experience?
What are the similar description of Zeus, Brahma and Jehovah? What about Allah and Sango? do their share any similar description? Do the Chinese Gods have the same attributes with Allah or the shirk Gods?

And what about atheists who held no prior religious convictions and yet experienced the spiritual dimension after clinical death?

It's not at all as simple as you make out,and if it could be discountenanced like that some of the world's most prominent scientists and universities wouldn't have been investigating if for decades. The resusitated didn't necessarily see beings from religious literature,and a lot of their experiences are similar and have motifs in common,irrespective of race,background,education and religious belief.That's how scientists could determine a pattern to them.

For starters you may wish to examine the refences and further reading material on
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Near-death_experience

I can also list a few of the hundreds of books,articles and research findings in the area by scientists,psychiatrists,psychologists,doctors and university professors,many of them atheists prior to their investigations. A staggering number of them discarded atheism after research, but touted man as divine instead,and birthed Omega and New Age and other spiritist groups. I guess that's their way of acknowledging the spiritual and the afterlife without bringing God into it.

Mad_Max:

And what about atheists who held no prior religious convictions and yet experienced the spiritual dimension after clinical death?

It's not at all as simple as you make out,and if it could be discountenanced like that some of the world's most prominent scientists and universities wouldn't have been investigating if for decades. The resusitated didn't necessarily see beings from religious literature,and a lot of their experiences are similar and have motifs in common,irrespective of race,background,education and religious belief.That's how scientists could determine a pattern to them.

For starters you may wish to examine the refences and further reading material on
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Near-death_experience

I can also list a few of the hundreds of books,articles and research findings in the area by scientists,psychiatrists,psychologists,doctors and university professors,many of them atheists prior to their investigations. A staggering number of them discarded atheism after research, but touted man as divine instead,and birthed Omega and New Age and other spiritist groups. I guess that's their way of acknowledging the spiritual and the afterlife without bringing God into it.

Right people may have strange stories to tell during near death experiences, many people have had dreams that seem very spiritual,deep and complicated. How the brains works in a semi conscious or unconscious state is not something humans beings know much about. Brain activity of a person in a coma is something medicine is still struggling to deal with. Mankind as a whole is in a learning process, several things we know today were not known hundreds of years ago. My simple argument is that why can't we simply be humble enough to say we don't know that much about our existence. Why must we create a concept of God to account for everything we cannot figure out. It's all so embarrassing when some years down the line we are forced to apologise for absolute statements we have made about God due to our limited knowledge - case in point, God created a flat earth or the sun revolves round the earth.

Mad_Max:

And what about atheists who held no prior religious convictions and yet experienced the spiritual dimension after clinical death?

It's not at all as simple as you make out,and if it could be discountenanced like that some of the world's most prominent scientists and universities wouldn't have been investigating if for decades. The resusitated didn't necessarily see beings from religious literature,and a lot of their experiences are similar and have motifs in common,irrespective of race,background,education and religious belief.That's how scientists could determine a pattern to them.

For starters you may wish to examine the refences and further reading material on
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Near-death_experience

I can also list a few of the hundreds of books,articles and research findings in the area by scientists,psychiatrists,psychologists,doctors and university professors,many of them atheists prior to their investigations. A staggering number of them discarded atheism after research, but touted man as divine instead,and birthed Omega and New Age and other spiritist groups. I guess that's their way of acknowledging the spiritual and the afterlife without bringing God into it.

These are some of the Characteristics of near death experienced by so many people that were prounced clinically dead regardless of their religion, race or gender. According to the link you prodived.

In some cases, a NDE any particular person experiences varies depending on the beliefs that the person held[citation needed]. Children, who typically do not have enough time to develop strongly towards one faith, had very limited NDEs. Examples of this include a boy simply having talked to his brother in his NDE and a daughter having a conversation with her mother. The phenomenology of an NDE usually includes physiological, psychological and alleged transcendental aspects.Typically, the experience follows a distinct progression:

1. A very unpleasant sound/noise is the first sensory impression to be noticed (R. Moody: Life after Life);
2. A sense of being dead;
3. Pleasant emotions; calmness and serenity;
4. An out-of-body experience; a sensation of floating above one's own body and seeing the surrounding area;
5. Floating up a blue tunnel with a strong, bright light or garden at the end;
6. Meeting deceased relatives or spiritual figures;
7. Encountering a being of light, or a light (often interpreted as being the deity or deities they personally believe in);
8. Being given a life review (the "life-flashing-before-your-eyes" phenomenon);
9. Reaching a border or boundary;
10. A feeling of being returned to the body, often accompanied by a reluctance.
11. Feeling of warmth even though naked

This goes a long way to show that even when people are pronouced clinically dead, their beliefs still acompany them and helps in forming what ever it is they tend to experience, moslems see their deceased relatives, same with hindus, shirks, chriatians etc. What then does that tell you? Why does every body seem to see his/her relatives regardless of their religion? some also see the deities in which they believe in regardless of their religion. There is much more to all these things than meets the eyes I must say but to declear that christainity, islam, hinduism or judaism alone has an answer to all these things is a farce. Moslems see mohammed, Christians see Jesus, athiest see some strange things(neither jesus or mohammed) children see their parents etc. This alone should be able to give you an insight into how beliefs constitute or plays a very important role in a persons life as long as his brian is still functioning.

Tasma:



Right people may have strange stories to tell during near death experiences, many people have had dreams that seem very spiritual,deep and complicated. How the brains works in a semi conscious or unconscious state is not something humans beings know much about. Brain activity of a person in a coma is something medicine is still struggling to deal with. Mankind as a whole is in a learning process, several things we know today were not known hundreds of years ago. My simple argument is that why can't we simply be humble enough to say we don't know that much about our existence. Why must we create a concept of God to account for everything we cannot figure out. It's all so embarrassing when some years down the line we are forced to apologise for absolute statements we have made about God due to our limited knowledge - case in point, God created a flat earth or the sun revolves round the earth.

You also forgot to add the rainbow and drought explanation in the bible and the koran.

JeSoul:

Good question. And I give you the same answer: Faith.

The bible teaches that Faith is all the evidence and proof that a christian needs that God is.

Now, can I prove that my faith is the right faith? NO. So to answer your question there's no way I can definitively show you that 'my' God is the right one. Christianity and the gospel of Jesus was never meant to be proven, but simply believed and accepted by faith. And then God reveals Himself to the person in a unique and intimate way that they become assured of the path that they walk.

JeSoul:

Christianity does not encourage complacency and blind zombie-like belief. Infact as you read thru the NT we see so many instances were we're taught to study, search out, investigate and to use wisdom before believing anything.

Madam Toronto or sorry, is it Boston? flip flopping as usual I see, can you please reconcile the two statements made by you in bold above or don't they seem contradictory to you? If they don't, then you are definitely from Toronto.
Typical of most Theists anyway.

JeSoul:

That's why the pursuit of the knowledge and understanding of God is a very personal journey. I cannot show you, you have to search it out and discover what the truth is for yourself. I hope this answers your question.

I agree with you wholeheartedly on this with a small caveat that when most people discover during the course of their search that God either does not exist or is not interested in being found, they then end up creating their own Gods. I assure you I've searched for him too but he is no where to be found, he is possibly hiding under your bed and that is an idea you wouldn't find so revolting or offensive if you consider the fact that a man whose favorite pastime was peeping tom behaviour was described as a man after his heart in your "Holy book".

[/quote][quote author=JeSoul link=topic=224782.msg3396718#msg3396718 date=1233167200]
But you are right in that the vast majority of so-called converts never take the time to really understand what it is they're supposedly converting to.

An apt description of the author.

duduspace:

Madam Toronto or sorry, is it Boston? flip flopping as usual I see, can you please reconcile the two statements made by you in bold above or don't they seem contradictory to you? If they don't, then you are definitely from Toronto.
Typical of most Theists anyway.

I agree with you wholeheartedly on this with a small caveat that when most people discover during the course of their search that God either does not exist or is not interested in being found, they then end up creating their own Gods. I assure you I've searched for him too but he is no where to be found, he is possibly hiding under your bed and that is an idea you wouldn't find so revolting or offensive if you consider the fact that a man whose favorite pastime was peeping tom behaviour was described as a man after his heart in your "Holy book".
An apt description of the author.

People may fault me for this comment, but is it possible the "intelligent designer" really wants us to figure out how to survive decently together on our own? To use our limited powers of perception to learn how to live with each other peacefully and harmoniously?

bindex:

If all religious people were like you then we would'nt be having a lot of problems in the world. The problem I have is when so many people around just look at you and decide to hate you just because you disbelieve in something they themselves espouse as facts but can not proof. Its funny because they only possess little or no understanding about that which they strongly espouse.

I hear you oh my brotha. It reeks of arrogance and pride and is NOT the way to go about interacting and speaking with people who hold a different view from us. No christian should be attempting to shove the bible down anyone's throat and subsequently disliking or hating them becos they refuse to accept it. Even when we look at Jesus, he never tried to coerce or convince anyone, He simply spoke, and his listeners either chose to believe it or not. Simple.

Chrisbenogor:

Jesoul long time, how body?

body dey oh my dear Chris happy new year. How have you been?

Can you iterate the steps one has to go through before the personal experience i.e. Read the bible, have faith and so on. Just arrange them in the right order.
Cheers

Well I wouldn't say there's a template, a series of steps you got thru exactly, there is no particular order i.e. to have faith, believe, read the bible etc. It's unique and different with each person as each of our journeys and experiences are different.

- For example a very good friend of mine came to believe in God as he was approached by one of those know-it-all christians one day who told him he was going to hell. My friend got so enraged about this arrogance and this 'God' that he started reading the bible. And as he read it, it became real to him and he believed in God and became a christian.

- And as for me, I had a remarkable experience that imprinted on me that there was a higher power in this world. And when I was taught the story of Jesus and God, it made sense and I believed. And things that happened to me following that decision to believe confirmed to me personally that Jesus was the way to go.

Tasma:

A mature outlook in the topic. Few "Christians" would take the same posture. However the point still stands that its possible that the God you believe in may not be real. I'm talking from a purely psychological point of view.

   I agree my dear. But we're hardly talking from the "psychological point of view" are we? I think once you cross over into spiritual matters and intangible things such as faith its a whole different ball game.
  What I mean is my faith in God as based on the bible, does not permit me to entertain the thot that 'the bible could be wrong', cos then the bible tells me that "those who put their hands to the plough and look back are not worthy of the kingdom of God" which basically means you cannot doubt or look back once you decide to follow God.
 
  So while from a psychological point of view I appear absolutely to be an unrepentant idiot who could be wrong,
            from a spiritual and faith-point-of-view, I appear to be an unrepentant follower of the true God

If anyone is well devoted to a faith, follows that faith with dedication and belief he/she is bound to "see" things in his life that he would look on as blessings from his God. What produces this results in the devotees life, the actual existence of his God or the process of being a faithful follower of a doctrine?

  I like the way you think Tasma    you're right on again.
However let me add that these ppl 'seeing' things as blessings from God may or may not be right and I still think its not altogether illogical to want to ascribe to a higher power the incredible things that happen to us. Dare I say its in our genes to want to worship or give praise to a higher being or else why would so much of the world be so religious?

duduspace:

Madam Toronto or sorry, is it Boston? flip flopping as usual I see, can you please reconcile the two statements made by you in bold above or don't they seem contradictory to you? If they don't, then you are definitely from Toronto.
Typical of most Theists anyway.

I agree with you wholeheartedly on this with a small caveat that when most people discover during the course of their search that God either does not exist or is not interested in being found, they then end up creating their own Gods. I assure you I've searched for him too but he is no where to be found, he is possibly hiding under your bed and that is an idea you wouldn't find so revolting or offensive if you consider the fact that a man whose favorite pastime was peeping tom behaviour was described as a man after his heart in your "Holy book".
An apt description of the author.

  I see someone is still carrying some saltiness from the previous thread huh? I think Tasma and Bindex got the gist of the statements I made, so it seems to me Dudu is up to mischief on this one. You're looking for a tussle and Boston is not going to give you one 

bindex:

This goes a long way to show that even when people are pronouced clinically dead, their beliefs still acompany them and helps in forming what ever it is they tend to experience, moslems see their deceased relatives, same with hindus, shirks, chriatians etc. What then does that tell you? Why does every body seem to see his/her relatives regardless of their religion? some also see the deities in which they believe in regardless of their religion. There is much more to all these things than meets the eyes I must say but to declear that christainity, islam, hinduism or judaism alone has an answer to all these things is a farce. Moslems see mohammed, Christians see Jesus, athiest see some strange things(neither jesus or mohammed) children see their parents etc. This alone should be able to give you an insight into how beliefs constitute or plays a very important role in a persons life as long as his brian is still functioning.

There is more to this than meets they eye. And that's after reading a single article on wikipedia. Believe me, you want to read a few more books on the subject. You quote from Professor Moody's study, I think. I don' think I made any declarations concerning a religion. I merely stated there is an invisible,spiritual dimension, and that quite a lot of atheists have experienced it and accept that,quite a few having to modify their beliefs. For instance, in 1988 Professor Ayer, an Oxford university professor and avowed atheist, flatlined for four minutes at the University College hospital in London. Whie medical personnel worked on him, he said he left this world and was in the presence of a light. This light was like looking into the sun,but it didn't hurt his eyes. This light somehow communicated to him that it ruled the universe. Then he was resusitated. Professor Ayer called the experience 'positive' and said he wasn't sure death was the end of everything anymore. If it was some brain thing, all those brilliant researchers would have their answer and stop looking for answers, right?Yes, a lot of the world's finest universities are still looking into it.

Mad_Max:

There is more to this than meets they eye. And that's after reading a single article on wikipedia. Believe me, you want to read a few more books on the subject. You quote from Professor Moody's study, I think. I don' think I made any declarations concerning a religion. I merely stated there is an invisible,spiritual dimension, and that quite a lot of atheists have experienced it and accept that,quite a few having to modify their beliefs. For instance, in 1988 Professor Ayer, an Oxford university professor and avowed atheist, flatlined for four minutes at the University College hospital in London. Whie medical personnel worked on him, he said he left this world and was in the presence of a light. This light was like looking into the sun,but it didn't hurt his eyes. This light somehow communicated to him that it ruled the universe. Then he was resusitated. Professor Ayer called the experience 'positive' and said he wasn't sure death was the end of everything anymore. If it was some brain thing, all those brilliant researchers would have their answer and stop looking for answers, right?Yes, a lot of the world's finest universities are still looking into it.

I spent the day reading some few articles on the NDE and I will likely agree that death is not the end to everything. Its possible, all I know is that the 72 virgins, river of wine, golden building , new jerusalem and the worship of a deity for enternity as written in the bible or the koran is all a fiary tale.

@Mad max,

I guess we all (theists and atheists alike) agree that there is so much to this world and to mankind that we don't know, in fact most of the problem in the world arise when some people start to think that they know all there is to know which is why I came to my definition of God as a placeholder for the limits of human knowledge, we usually redefine him/her/it (all religions alike) as our understanding of our world and ourselves increases.

You can however not exclude the possibility of NDEs having to do with the brain, in fact it is the most likely responsible organ as it is an organ in man that is largely unknown and unexplored, I beleive you realise that there is no other part of the body that a man cannot survive without or at least be transplanted with but no one dare tamper with the brain as man cannot survive without it, the fact that these various other world NDEs are usually "personalized" to the individuals and their experiences also suggests a link to their existing memories for example, why did this so called Atheist not see streets of Gold or 72 virgins? and mind you, the fact that he claimed to be an atheist does not preclude an upbringing based on a belief in God which could easily have been triggered when he was in the coma/NDE. I distinctly remember someone telling me sometime ago that there was an area of the brain that when subjected to some form of electrical stimuli would cause you to recall everything that has ever happened to you from when you were a baby and I'm sure yu are conversant with the use of hypnotism to bring out repressed memories.

It is hard to conduct experiments on the brain as you could easily end up damaging a person permanently, most of what is known about the brain now was achieved by the German scientists who conducted all sorts of inhuman experiments on the Jews during the second world war. No one can do that now because it is immoral, unethical and is bound to raise a lot of dust in international circles.

To catch your attention, I will point out to you that there are some buddhist monks who have been studied and confirmed to be able to regulate their body temperature through meditation. I have also had the opportunity to meet a Deaf mute who seemed to have the power to control his micro environment (though I'm not sure it wasn't some magical tricks he was up to) he specifically seemed to have some form of control over water and would cause rain to fall on your windscreen if he begged you for money and you didn't give him. A Latvian friend has also told me of a man he knew who could kill flies by simply concentrating enough to kill them (this friend of mine also does not beleive in God).

Not all claims of supernatural phenomenon are true and it is well within the realm of probability that some of them are true but until they become mainstream/ubiquitous enough to become a source of worry or rejoicing, I think we should leave them in the realm of research and personal experiences (Please note that I said "experiences" and not "beliefs".

JeSoul:

I see someone is still carrying some saltiness from the previous thread huh? I think Tasma and Bindex got the gist of the statements I made, so it seems to me Dudu is up to mischief on this one. You're looking for a tussle and Boston is not going to give you one

Yup, if only you could see the glint in my eye when I was typing that but I'm sure you do see the contradictory position religion puts people.

But why don't you want to give me a tussle? all my favorite spitfires have suddenly gone coy on me while I was away for exams (even Lady is now more ladylike than any member of the royal family), is it because you've finally gotten out of that F-16 of yours (mind you, Hamas is declaring victory and your recess might be short lived).

Haba, what is this stuff about you being between a rock and a hard place? at least try to get on a bed first before doing the wild thing, don't want you cracking any vertebrae. I know most of my friends are of the opinion that I have a vivid imagination but the visions that signature of yours conjure up in my mind do no justice to my perception of you.

duduspace:

Yup, if only you could see the glint in my eye when I was typing that but I'm sure you do see the contradictory position religion puts people.

lol yeah some religious ppl can put forth 'contradictory statements' . . . no more than our non-religious ppl themselves put forth

But why don't you want to give me a tussle? all my favorite spitfires have suddenly gone coy on me while I was away for exams (even Lady is now more ladylike than any member of the royal family), is it because you've finally gotten out of that F-16 of yours (mind you, Hamas is declaring victory and your recess might be short lived).

Tussles are not my thing boy
& Hamas is and has always been deluded let them try firing rockets at Isreali school buses and hospitals again . . . I don't mind coming outta recess

Haba, what is this stuff about you being between a rock and a hard place? at least try to get on a bed first before doing the wild thing, don't want you cracking any vertebrae. I know most of my friends are of the opinion that I have a vivid imagination but the visions that signature of yours conjure up in my mind do no justice to my perception of you.

Lol this Dudu is really funny
How you take know wetin be the rock and wetin be the hard place? lol now the interesting question should be what your 'vivid imagination' came up with in the first place, right? I already know you're mischevious

JeSoul:

lol yeah some religious ppl can put forth 'contradictory statements' . . . no more than our non-religious ppl themselves put forth

Nice way to dance out of it, "contradictory position" is different from "contradictory statements" but I can see from your previous post that you are not a fanatic per se, you are very much enroute to become an agnostic when you allow yourself to question your "belief" and realise that it does not necessarily lead to a loss of morality or your firm psychological stability, verily verily I say unto you,  you shall soon break out of the matrix of religion.

JeSoul:

Tussles are not my thing boy
& Hamas is and has always been deluded let them try firing rockets at Isreali school buses and hospitals again . . . I don't mind coming outta recess

Your recess is almost over, they have already started and it remains to be seen how long Israel will suffer their foolhardiness.

JeSoul:

How you take know wetin be the rock and wetin be the hard place? lol now the interesting question should be what your 'vivid imagination' came up with in the first place, right? I already know you're mischevious

You are now the one being mischevious, don't you know Nairaland is rated PG-13? or you want Seun to descend on me? All I know is that whether na "hard place" abi na "hard thing" the difference is the same (a la Alias 4:30)

@duduspace
Noted.
God as a placeholder for the limits of human intelligence. You know, I like that.
Oh yeah. Those good old Buddhists monks. Well, you know mind over matter.
Yes there are little understood aspects to the brain. But those who can apparently access it,like the deaf mute who could control his immediate environment,achieve results that can be evaluated empirically, I think. They don't practice on any other plane but the physical.

As for NDEs being the brain being mischevous, you might be a little surprised to find most researchers don't attribute it to some mysterious part of the brain they don't understand.They understand the process all right; they know the exact chemical processes involved at death, and they have sought to duplicate NDEs and the planes experienced,without success. And those who have experienced it call it 'impossible' and 'unbelievable' but 'real'. On a scale of one to ten, reality-wise,dreams are a 1, our physical senses rated a 5 and the other plane rated a ten!That was how real it was.It's most intriguing

You know one of the reasons I suspect there's something out there? Human nature itself. We're so corrupt, and there's no real good to be found in us. Anarchy is the natural state of man,in that it allows the beast within him free ad true expression.Why else are war and conflict the background to horrific,inhumane acts?History is written in blood, in tears,in darkness. Civilization would tame the beast,leaving it some masquerade to hide behind, but can you count how many times the true nature of things has stipped away that frail pretext? How may evil men go free, who have chosen to indulge their vilest instincts? A man tears other men from their families, kills children, rapes wives,murders brothers. The news are filled with the base things civilised man to do each other. Isn't there something in us that demands these men render account for their actions? If we think men should give account of themselves,why should God,if indeed he exists and issued men the free will that is so evident,not demand accountability from us? Is our inherent sense of justice perhaps part of the 'image of God'? Or whatever it is that exists and is confronted in those ten-scale reality spirit planes?

Professor Ayer,an Oxford scholar and avowed atheist,flatlined at an hospital. He was in this plane, he said, and was in the presence of a light that somehow made him cognizant of the fact that it ruled the universe. Communication was not by talking,he said. When he was revived four minutes later,he called the experience 'unbelievable'and said he now knew death was not the end. But he didn't say anything about whether he now thought 'God' was real.If atheists agree a spiritual plane is possible, shouldn't it be cause for deeper personal investigation? Don't you have a right to have ALL the facts,so that you may arrive at your own informed conclusions?