johnw74:


Who is the one glorious personage
the Father God, the Word Jesus Christ, or the Holy Spirit?

Help me ask them who do not believe in the Trinity. That there is one God does not not infer that there is only one personality with the name 'God.' This one personality as they assume must be a magician, in that he divided himself in order to live in heaven, with himself seated at his right-hand, and himself dwelling in man. They usually quote the OT and less of the books- Matthew, Mark, Luke and John- that substantially explained about Jesus and his Ministry. They get confused when they read the NT so they hold onto more of the OT and interprete it out of context. Anyone that wants to understand the Scriptures should leave theological ideas out of it and allow the Holy Spirit do the interpretation, so that it will not contradict other passages in the Scriptures.

johnw74:



One God not one person,
the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, does not equal one person but three.

The below verse shows the three persons of God together at the same time.

Mat 3:16 And Jesus, when He had been baptized, went up immediately out of the water. And lo, the heavens were opened to Him, and He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and lighting upon Him.
Mat 3:17 And lo, a voice from Heaven, saying, This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

Below, Jesus prays to the Father (two persons there) to give those the Holy Spirit (third person there).

Joh 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and He shall give you another Comforter, so that He may be with you forever,

I don't see how those verses you quoted shows a 3 person God except you throw a meaning into it. Where in those verses did it say God the father, God the son and God the holy spirit? That's where Trinitarians get it wrong. Here's what Trinitarians themselves say about the trinity doctrine:

Trinitarians themselves admit that "The Trinity...is an INFERRED doctrine, gathered ECLECTICALLY from the entire Canon". - page 630 of the highly trinitarian publication, Today's Dictionary of the Bible, Bethany House Publishers, 1982


What that means is that they read the bible and formed the doctrine of trinity based on percieved ideas. This happened in 381 AD during the counsel of Nicaea, more than 200 years after the death of the last Apostle John.
By formulating this teaching they mean that somehow God Revealed to them what he didn't to the Apostles in the first century.

Because the trinity is an inferred doctrine Gathered Ecclectically from the entire cannon, the “proof” offered by trinitarians is always specious, vague, and/or ambiguous. So Trinitarians are forced to rely on a certain type of 'reasoning', such reasoning you have just shown in quoting matt 3:16,17 and John 14:16 (those scriptures never prove 3 persons in a God).

Yes, by employing Trinitarian's exact same 'reasoning', with a little research and imagination, many others in the Bible can also be rationalized as being God! Below are but a few examples:



Moses is said to be god to Pharaoh and Aaron. (Ex. 4:16, Ex. 7:1)

Paul said "I am" twice. (1 Cor. 15:10)

How about picking any one of Jesus' believers since his believers are supposed to be one as Jesus and his Father are one? (John 17:11, 22)

How about the judges in Israel since Jesus used them being called gods in his defense when they thought he was saying that he was god? (John 10:34-36; Psalms 82:6)

How about Luke 9:26 (which actually says, "when [Jesus] comes in the glory [singular] of him [Jesus] and of the Father and of the holy angels"? Paraphrasing a trinitarian's case for Mt. 28:19, Luke 9:26 is also "first asserting the unity of the three by combining them all within the bounds of the single [glory], and then throwing into emphasis the distinctness of each by introducing them in turn with the repeated article." But, here, of course, the angels, too, make up the "trinity." We have, then, God the Father, God the Son, and God the holy angels!

How about Othniel or Ehud since God sent them as savior in the past? (Judges 3:9,15)

How about one of the apostles since they were authorized to forgive sins? (John 20:20-23)

How about one of Jesus followers as the King James shows that they will receive worship? (Rev 3:9; Luke 14:10)

How about the blind beggar? At John 9:9 the blind beggar that Jesus healed said "ego eimi", or I am.

Barnabaseloka:

Help me ask them who do not believe in the Trinity. That there is one God does not not infer that there is only one personality with the name 'God.' This one personality as they assume must be a magician, in that he divided himself in order to live in heaven, with himself seated at his right-hand, and himself dwelling in man. They usually quote the OT and less of the books- Matthew, Mark, Luke and John- that substantially explained about Jesus and his Ministry. They get confused when they read the NT so they hold onto more of the OT and interprete it out of context. Anyone that wants to understand the Scriptures should leave theological ideas out of it and allow the Holy Spirit do the interpretation, so that it will not contradict other passages in the Scriptures.

Hi, I try not to push anything, I write about what the bible says,
and others can accept it or not.

BIBLESPEAKS:


I don't see how those verses you quoted shows a 3 person God except you throw a meaning into it. Where in those verses did it say God the father, God the son and God the holy spirit?

You are jw is why you cannot see it,
you don't know that Jesus Christ is God,
and you don't know that the Holy Spirit is God.

The voice from heaven saying this is my beloved Son,
is clearly God the Father.
And Jesus is clearly the Word, who is God,
John 1:1...and the Word was God.
that just leaves the Holy Spirit who I believe, know is God,
and not just God's power.
If you had God's Holy Spirit you would know it is He.

How can you not at least see God the Father in Mat 3:17?

And the same with John 14:16, "I" is Jesus Christ, the Word, God.
And again the Father is obviously God.
Another comforter is referring to the Holy Spirit.
Comforter is not an appropriate word for God's power, is it?
it's very personal, like as in a person, God even.

johnw74:



You are jw is why you cannot see it,
you don't know that Jesus Christ is God,
and you don't know that the Holy Spirit is God.

The voice from heaven saying this is my beloved Son,
is clearly God the Father.
And Jesus is clearly the Word, who is God,
John 1:1...and the Word was God.
that just leaves the Holy Spirit who I believe is God,
and not just His power.

How can you not at least see God the Father in Mat 3:17?

And the same with John 14:16, "I" is Jesus Christ, the Word, God.
And again the Father is obviously God.
Another comforter is referring to the Holy Spirit.

Guy easy o! I can feel the fire burning in your heart when you typed this in annoyance. Please forgive them for they know not what they do! Pray that their eyes will be opened to the truth.

Barnabaseloka:

Guy easy o! I can feel the fire burning in your heart when you typed this in annoyance. Please forgive them for they know not what they do! Pray that their eyes will be opened to the truth.

Ha ha, no you've got me wrong,
no annoyance in that post.

johnw74:


Ha ha, no you've got me wrong,
no annoyance in that post.

Ok. Just that your post seemed to me as if you were shouting into someone's ears to admit the truth.

johnw74:



You are jw is why you cannot see it,
you don't know that Jesus Christ is God,
and you don't know that the Holy Spirit is God.

The voice from heaven saying this is my beloved Son,
is clearly God the Father.
And Jesus is clearly the Word, who is God,
John 1:1...and the Word was God.
that just leaves the Holy Spirit who I believe, know is God,
and not just God's power.
If you had God's Holy Spirit you would know it is He.

How can you not at least see God the Father in Mat 3:17?

And the same with John 14:16, "I" is Jesus Christ, the Word, God.
And again the Father is obviously God.
Another comforter is referring to the Holy Spirit.
Comforter is not an appropriate word for God's power, is it?
it's very personal, like as in a person, God even.

Its not about being a JW. Is there a scripture that calls jesus God the son? Do we have a scripture which is written "God the Holy spirit"?

If that passage of scripture exists - I'll become a trinitarian.

If what u're saying is true, then its going to be in the scriptures. God introduced himself to us through the scriptures, so the scriptures should be explicit in its explanation of 3 persons in one God.

Show me the expressions God the father, God the son and God the Holy spirit.

Waiting...

Verses below show the Father and Jesus Christ being two persons:

The Word was with God, is two persons.
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God

Wrong! The word was with God is not two persons! This is where most of you confuse yourselves.
When the bible said ''in the begining was the word....,'' where was the Word then? In THE BEGINING (Gen.1vs1-2,) ---now, we must understand something here.. What is a word? A WORD IS A THOUGHT EXPRESSED! Before you alter a word, it is first a thought in you, and it can never become a word unless you have altered it out. Now-- ''and the Word was with God'-- the word that comes out of you is always with you, it was a thought in you and emanates from inside of you to the open, whenever you deem it fit to alter it. It does not come from somewhere else.
** '' and the Word was God,''--- your thought is you, and when it becomes a word, IT IS YOU!
You are not different from your word. Though you are superior to your word (in the sense that it emanated from you,) you are not different from your word.

That was the mystery as enshrined in John 1vs1-3 viz the creation in Gen.1vs1-3. Back then in the begining, the earth was void and without form, and ''the spirit of God was moving upon the face of the water.'' what does that tell you? God was calculating (in THOUGHT) within Him what to do about the voidness and formlessNess of the earth. And in vs 3, it went 'BOOM! FOR THE THOUGHT Started becoming A WORD which brought out everything that is today, and THE WORD OF GOD IS NOT, AND WAS NOT (coroborating John 1vs1) DIFFERENT FROM GOD! For by it (His own thoughts becoming word,) all things were made, as stated in John 1vs3. The Word of God is God Himself!
Not the other way round!

Now, having put this to rest, the next thing we must consider is, WHO IS God or what is God?

Simple! God is an OBJECT OF WORSHIP. God is not a name but rather, a deity. This God we are talking about is a Spirit being (John 4vs24,) and this Spirit which is the original nature of God, is Holy (the Holy Spirit.) Therefore, the term 'God' is the deity, Holy spirit, 'the original nature of this deity and, ' the Word', is the Spoken Thought' of this Holy Deity!
That is it! The unmistakable character of ONE BEING, not three distinct beings in one.

Now, it is worthy of note that from the begining, all things were created by this SPOKEN THOUGHT OF GOD, except one thing-- MAN! Man was the only creature that was not formed directly by the spoken word of God, rather, he was formed by God's own productive hand-craftship, from the soil of the earth.
The only being that was formed by the direct Spoken Word of God is JESUS! THE ONLY WORD OF GOD THAT WAS MADE FLESH AND DWELT AMONG US (John 1vs14,) --
'' and we beheld his 'glory' (this wonderful thing, this mystery,) as of the ONLY BEGOTTEN--(the only human-being that was formed expressly by the SPOKEN WORD OF GOD, without sperm)--of the 'FATHER,' (that is, the originator of the Word, the owner of the Thought spoken to become Flesh.) hahahaha. Halleluyah!
This is the greatest mystery of all. The THOUGHT of God spoken to become WORD, and the WORD becoming FLESH, IS ALL CHARACTERISTICS AND DISPENSATIONAL MANIFESTATION OF ONE BEING, (as stated in 1st Tim.3vs16,) THAT SELF-SAME BEING THAT WAS MOVING UPON THE WATER BACK THEN IN GENESIS. ONE GOD ALL THE TIME.

Thus this WORD-FLESH now dwelling among men, is 100% God, and 100% Man. And since he came for the purpose of salvation, He had to lay the example for us to follow.. Therefore, as a man, He was hungry, as a man, he must have an ultimate (the Father-the Logos for the Son-the Word, His own Word). Thus when he talks, prays, gives sermons and preached, he always refer back to the Logos-originator, the source from whence He-the Word actually emanated-as 'The Father,' whom is not different fron His own Word.

Thus,

1Jn 1:2 (for the Life was revealed, and we have seen it and bear witness, and show to you the everlasting Life, who was with the Father and was revealed to us),

the Spirit that walk upon the water became Known as father upon creating all things. And the Word by which He created all things became FLESH for the purpose of salvation, thus becoming the Son. The work of the same Spirit Being all the time.

1Jn 5:7 For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one.

It never said there are three Gods-God the father, God the Son And God the Holy Spirit.. Thus, this is what it meant;

''there are 3 that bears RECORD (not records. And what records? Nothing but the testimonial manifestations of God's power of SALVATION, REDEMPTION AND EVENTUAL JUDGEMENT of all things) 'the Father' is d OWNER of the 'WORD,' and the Holy Ghost is the ACTUAL NATURE OF GOD dat gave the WORD life.

The attributes of ONE BEING!

Appleyard:



Wrong! The word was with God is not two persons! This is where most of you confuse yourselves.
When the bible said ''in the begining was the word....,'' where was the Word then? In THE BEGINING (Gen.1vs1-2,) ---now, we must understand something here.. What is a word? A WORD IS A THOUGHT EXPRESSED! Before you alter a word, it is first a thought in you, and it can never become a word unless you have altered it out. Now-- ''and the Word was with God'-- the word that comes out of you is always with you, it was a thought in you and emanates from inside of you to the open, whenever you deem it fit to alter it. It does not come from somewhere else.
** '' and the Word was God,''--- your thought is you, and when it becomes a word, IT IS YOU!
You are not different from your word. Though you are superior to your word (in the sense that it emanated from you,) you are not different from your word.

I hope you studied english well (no insults meant). The word 'Word' started with an initial capital letter, which is different from 'word.' If it were God's thought, it would not have been written with an initial capital letter. The 'Word' is a proper noun and distinct. When initial capital letters are used in the bible, they represent 'distinct' things and not 'common' things. Do you want to make me believe that God's thought was transformed into flesh and became a human being? Then here are few questions:
1. Does it mean that God was in heaven and His thought (Jesus) was on earth? How did you come to this contradictory and hilarious conclusion? Have you ever read from the OT to the NT that God's 'thought' transformed to become a thing or a human being? What I have read is that God 'spoke' (not thought) and things came into existence.
For human beings, He did not speak but 'They' created them. Gen. 1:26 'Then God said, let Us (note the initial capital letter different from 'us') make man in Our (note) image, according to Our (note) likeness....' Who are the Us and Our being referred to- God and His thought who was with Him?
2. When Jesus (thought) ascended into heaven why did he (thought) choose to sit at the right-hand side of the owner (God)? Does this not make Jesus to be visible as a person, making them two people in existence- God and his thought (Jesus) sitting beside him?
According to what you have written, will someone not say that Jesus is with God (sitting beside God'? When you use 'with' it can mean 'having' or 'carrying' something. It can also mean 'being in the company' of people.

Scholar8200:
Let's go down to some verses in the same chapter, see John 14:9-12
9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father? 10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. 11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works’ sake. 12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

Jesus' life was such that The Father was revealed through Him. As Luke 10:22, declares, “All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows who the Son is except the Father, and no one knows who the Father is except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.” And He revealed the Father to the disciples as stated in John 17:6


This is why Jesus could pray the way He did in John 17:6
6 I have manifested Your Name [I have revealed Your very Self, Your real Self] to the people whom You have given Me out of the world. They were Yours, and You gave them to Me, and they have obeyed and kept Your word.

Now where lies your confusion.

[quote author=Barnabaseloka post=33677361]

We Christians believe that God is one. My questions are: who was Jesus referring to as the Father during his ministry on earth?

The first that should come to your mind is, who is Jesus? Where did He emanate from? Once you are able to solve this, then you would be able to understand the Father, and why He was always refering to Him

Lets go!

In the begining, God made man, extablished him and gave him dominion over all things. But along the Line, man fell and lost the title deed of the world unto Satan. God, for Him to redeem man back to himself, demands blood, by His own law, to redeem man back to him again. And since the blood of animals or no angels in Heaven or anyone on earth can't do it, He had to look for a way out. He had to pay the price for his own law.

Now, God is a Spirit, and since a spirit can not bleed nor die, he must look for a body that must bear the brunt of the penalty for sin. A body He have to creat by Himself. THEN THE PROMISE BEGAN!
In isaiah 35vs 3-5, He, God Almighty, promised to come and save his people (salvation,) and when He shall come, the blind will see, the lame will walk, the deaf will hear, and so on.

Now, in Matt.11vs2-6, Jesus replied the desciples sent by John that they should go back and informed him of the things that they have seen-- the blinds now see, the deaf now hear, the lame now walk, and so on..(as promised in Isaiah 35vs3-5.)

Now, how is Jesus the one now fulfilling this scriptures? Was'nt it suppose to be THE ALMIGHTY GOD THE JEWS USE TO KNOW? Why is it that it is a son of a capenter now fulfilling the promise? Is'nt it strange? No wonder they asked ''can anything good come out of Nazareth? For the way thet were expecting it, it didnt turn out to be so. For God's ways are not our way. So, who is this Jesus?

Now, in John 1vs1, we are told that in the BEGINING (back to Genesis) WAS THE WORD,' (hey! What was the Word doing then? Shortly pls,) AND THE WORD WAS WITH GOD' (hold it right there! Who is this God;?) AND THE WORD WAS GOD!

WOW!

Now, lets see. In Genesis 1vs2, the Spirit of God was walking upon the void and formless earth (water). That is, God is a Spirit, and the term 'God' is an object of worship. And in vs3 down, the creation started. How? In vs2, He God was IN THOUGHT ON WHAT TO DO abt the earth. Then He started doing it in vs3 by SPEAKING OUT, and things started to take place.

What does it mean? The word that you speak is a THOUGHT in You first, and is only when you SPEAK IT OUT IT BECOMES A WORD.
Thus, John1vs1, was saying that, the Word he(John) was talking about, HAS BEEN ACTIVE FROM THE VERY BEGINING. And this Word has been with God (that same Spirit Being) as A THOUGHT, and The Word was God, because your thought are not different from who you are, and so, this Word of God Became Flesh and dwelt among us! Also confirming d creativity in vs3.
That is the very foundation of your saviour, Jesus Christ.

Now, that Spirit Being Back there in Genesis, became known as the Father when He step into time and created all things by the SPOKEN WORD (Jesus), except man, who was formed directly from the Earth. The only man formed directly by the Spoken Word that became Flesh is JESUS, (for all other flesh are of earthly product through the sexual interactions of the sperm and ovum characteristics).

This Spoken Word-that became Flesh-Jesus, now became 'the only begotten' of the 'Father-THE ORIGINAL SOURCE.' Hence, since the Word emanated from that Spirit Being, who is now The Father, it is normal that the Word(Jesus) must refer back to its originator (the Spirit Father-source), because YOUR WORD CAN NOT BE EXALTED MORE ABOVE YOU, THE SOURCE, AND AT THE SAME TIME, IT CAN NOT BE SEPERATED FROM YOU. The Flesh can not take preeminent above the Spirit. That is why Jesus was always refering back to the source it actually came
from. Otherwise, the Word-Flesh belong to the Spirit Being, and the Spirit Being is the ONE acting in the Word-Flesh. One entity all the time, not Two.

Or do you wana say, Jesus is a seperate being entirely from God and the Holy Ghost? If so, answer this: how Many fathers can someone have? Luke 1vs35, He is called the Son Of God. Matt.1vs18, the Holy Ghost is His Father. So Jesus Have two fathers? God forbid. Its one person all the time, manifesting here and there. For God is Omnipresent!

Why did he mention the Holy Spirit who he said that the Father would send b/c He (Jesus) goes to the Father? Can you say that Jesus was going to himself and will send himself? It is a mystery! Your doubt about the existence of Trinity does not make it non-existent.

Since He Jesus is returning back to the Father (that is, d Word back to His position as THE CREATOR), it became expedient that He send them the Holy Ghost to guide them into all truth. For as long as He is with them, its God with Men. But as He leaves, He returns to INDWELL THEM.

Appleyard:

It never said there are three Gods-God the father, God the Son And God the Holy Spirit.. Thus, this is what it meant;

''there are 3 that bears RECORD (not records. And what records? Nothing but the testimonial manifestations of God's power of SALVATION, REDEMPTION AND EVENTUAL JUDGEMENT of all things) 'the Father' is d OWNER of the 'WORD,' and the Holy Ghost is the ACTUAL NATURE OF GOD dat gave the WORD life.

The attributes of ONE BEING!

You confuse yourself. No one has said that we have three Gods. God is one. To prove that Jesus is God and Son: Isa. 9:6 'For unto us a Child (note the initial capital letter) is born, Unto us a Son (note) is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, 'Mighty God', 'Everlasting Father', Prince of Peace.'
God (Father) has these names but the unity seen among them made Jesus (the Son) to be addressed with the same names.
Luke 1:32,35
32. He will be great and will be called the 'Son' of the Highest (the Father)....'
35. .... the Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you, therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born will be called the 'Son' of God.
God was in heaven when Jesus was on earth. When Jesus ascended to heaven, he ascended as a person and did not vanish on reaching heaven so that it will be only the Father exixting as the one God. He joined his Father and this makes them 'two personalities' not 'one'.
When you mention the name God, you describe three personalities. There are THREE (not one) that bear RECORD (the same testimony of redemption) in heaven. Who are they (not Who is he)? The Father, the Word (who you say is God's thought) and the Holy Ghost. It is not written as the Father, Son and Holy Ghost which symbolises the same person. The article 'the' before each name shows they are distinct and different. Check other bible translations to know if the word 'the' is used before each name. The problem is that some people can no longer differentiate between plural and singular and also, what it means when the word 'the' is used before a word.

Appleyard:



Wrong! The word was with God is not two persons! This is where most of you confuse yourselves.
When the bible said ''in the begining was the word....,'' where was the Word then? In THE BEGINING (Gen.1vs1-2,) ---now, we must understand something here.. What is a word? A WORD IS A THOUGHT EXPRESSED! Before you alter a word, it is first a thought in you, and it can never become a word unless you have altered it out. Now-- ''and the Word was with God'-- the word that comes out of you is always with you, it was a thought in you and emanates from inside of you to the open, whenever you deem it fit to alter it. It does not come from somewhere else.
** '' and the Word was God,''--- your thought is you, and when it becomes a word, IT IS YOU!
You are not different from your word. Though you are superior to your word (in the sense that it emanated from you,) you are not different from your word.

That was the mystery as enshrined in John 1vs1-3 viz the creation in Gen.1vs1-3. Back then in the begining, the earth was void and without form, and ''the spirit of God was moving upon the face of the water.'' what does that tell you? God was calculating (in THOUGHT) within Him what to do about the voidness and formlessNess of the earth. And in vs 3, it went 'BOOM! FOR THE THOUGHT Started becoming A WORD which brought out everything that is today, and THE WORD OF GOD IS NOT, AND WAS NOT (coroborating John 1vs1) DIFFERENT FROM GOD! For by it (His own thoughts becoming word,) all things were made, as stated in John 1vs3. The Word of God is God Himself!
Not the other way round!

Now, having put this to rest, the next thing we must consider is, WHO IS God or what is God?

Simple! God is an OBJECT OF WORSHIP. God is not a name but rather, a deity. This God we are talking about is a Spirit being (John 4vs24,) and this Spirit which is the original nature of God, is Holy (the Holy Spirit.) Therefore, the term 'God' is the deity, Holy spirit, 'the original nature of this deity and, ' the Word', is the Spoken Thought' of this Holy Deity!
That is it! The unmistakable character of ONE BEING, not three distinct beings in one.

Now, it is worthy of note that from the begining, all things were created by this SPOKEN THOUGHT OF GOD, except one thing-- MAN! Man was the only creature that was not formed directly by the spoken word of God, rather, he was formed by God's own productive hand-craftship, from the soil of the earth.
The only being that was formed by the direct Spoken Word of God is JESUS! THE ONLY WORD OF GOD THAT WAS MADE FLESH AND DWELT AMONG US (John 1vs14,) --
'' and we beheld his 'glory' (this wonderful thing, this mystery,) as of the ONLY BEGOTTEN--(the only human-being that was formed expressly by the SPOKEN WORD OF GOD, without sperm)--of the 'FATHER,' (that is, the originator of the Word, the owner of the Thought spoken to become Flesh.) hahahaha. Halleluyah!
This is the greatest mystery of all. The THOUGHT of God spoken to become WORD, and the WORD becoming FLESH, IS ALL CHARACTERISTICS AND DISPENSATIONAL MANIFESTATION OF ONE BEING, (as stated in 1st Tim.3vs16,) THAT SELF-SAME BEING THAT WAS MOVING UPON THE WATER BACK THEN IN GENESIS. ONE GOD ALL THE TIME.

Thus this WORD-FLESH now dwelling among men, is 100% God, and 100% Man. And since he came for the purpose of salvation, He had to lay the example for us to follow.. Therefore, as a man, He was hungry, as a man, he must have an ultimate (the Father-the Logos for the Son-the Word, His own Word). Thus when he talks, prays, gives sermons and preached, he always refer back to the Logos-originator, the source from whence He-the Word actually emanated-as 'The Father,' whom is not different fron His own Word.

Thus,



the Spirit that walk upon the water became Known as father upon creating all things. And the Word by which He created all things became FLESH for the purpose of salvation, thus becoming the Son. The work of the same Spirit Being all the time.



It never said there are three Gods-God the father, God the Son And God the Holy Spirit.. Thus, this is what it meant;

''there are 3 that bears RECORD (not records. And what records? Nothing but the testimonial manifestations of God's power of SALVATION, REDEMPTION AND EVENTUAL JUDGEMENT of all things) 'the Father' is d OWNER of the 'WORD,' and the Holy Ghost is the ACTUAL NATURE OF GOD dat gave the WORD life.

The attributes of ONE BEING!

A large percentage of Trinitarians don't understand what is meant when the Bible says Jesus is God's word.

If I was a president for example, and I'm supposed to visit another country to strengthen ties. But for some reasons I couldnt make the trip but decided to send my minister of foreign affairs - Mr John. It follows that Mr John is my spokesman, he is my word.

It doesn't mean that Mr John and I are the same person.

Christ came to reveal the father to us. Christ is God's word. He is a different spirit person from his father. And as it follows: he's subject to his father.

Scholar8200:
The Bible clearly states that Isaiah 40:13 Who has directed the Spirit of the Lord,
Or as His counselor has taught Him?
If it be so,the statement found in Genesis 1:26,27 clarifies this matter because God could not have been talking to angels, they were not made in His Image and Likeness!
Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all[b] the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” 27 So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him;

Hence, the pagan religions (most of which started after the flood eg Nimrod/Osiris/Tammuz worship by Semiramis; the latter actually cloned/counterfeited her religion from the promise of the Messiah God made in Geneis 3:15 etc) copied from this truth just as their father the devil does to the things of God. How do I know this? The Bible clarifies that the invisible things of God and His Godhead were revealed by God from the creation of the world Romans 1:20,21-23
20 For ever since the creation of the world His invisible nature and attributes, that is, His eternal power and divinity, have been made intelligible and clearly discernible in and through the things that have been made (His handiworks). So [men] are without excuse [altogether without any defense or justification],
21 Because when they knew and recognized Him as God, they did not honor and glorify Him as God or give Him thanks. But instead they became futile and [c]godless in their thinking [with vain imaginings, foolish reasoning, and stupid speculations] and their senseless minds were darkened.
22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools [professing to be smart, they made simpletons of themselves].
23 And by them the glory and majesty and excellence of the immortal God were exchanged for and represented by images, resembling mortal man and birds and beasts and reptiles.

Now as regards the Us in Genesis 1:26, consider the following.
Psalm 104:30
30 When You send forth Your Spirit . . ., they are created, and You replenish the face of the ground.(explains why the Spirit moved on the waters in the beginning)
Isaiah 40:28
28 Have you not known? Have you not heard? The everlasting God, the Lord, the Creator of the ends of the earth
John 1:1-3
1 In the beginning [before all time] was the Word ([a]Christ), and the Word was with God, and the Word was God Himself.
2 He was present originally with God.
3 All things were made and came into existence through Him; and without Him was not even one thing made that has come into being.
The above verses clarifies the statement made in Genesis 1:26, creation was attributed to the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit not as 3 gods but One note this ," in the image of God He (not they) created him"
. This aspect of the Divine nature is what was known and prostituted by the pagan religions and ignored by the others
,

Thats right Brother. For the word of God interprete itself. The plural form 'us' was used when God said 'let us make man in our own image'. Then He went on to interprete His own word.. ''and God made man in His own image''. Not 'their' but 'His'. That is God interpreting himself.

[quote author=Appleyard post=33734680][/quote]
Gen. 1:2
2. ....And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters. This happened before God spoke. Now, was it God that spoke or the Spirit that spoke?
Note that 'the Spirit' is different from 'Spirit.'
John 4:24 'God is Spirit and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and in truth.' The word 'Spirit' here started with initial capital letter as a sign of honour or respect to God to denote His nature. In the bible one can see that initial capital letters are used when referring to God with 'He,, Him, Us, Our and other words.' This is to show reverence. This does not talk about the Holy spirit but the invisible nature of God. It was not written as 'God is the Spirit', showing that He is a personality. but 'God is Spirit' showing invisibility. They that must worship God will do so in spirit (believing He is everywhere because He is invisible) and in truth (sincerity of heart)

jikjimmy2:
Now where lies your confusion.

How do you mean?

Appleyard:




Thats right Brother. For the word of God interprete itself. The plural form 'us' was used when God said 'let us make man in our own image'. Then He went on to interprete His own word.. ''and God made man in His own image''. Not 'their' but 'His'. That is God interpreting himself.

You are wrong mister! God was not soliloquizing! Interpreting Himself to who?! Pls dont get me wrong. Read the entire text and quote me before you reply! I am not a party to the heresy you forged up there! The import of my post you quoted was that the Triune nature of God was copied by the pagan religion most of which sprung up after the flood. The US therefore relates to Three Persons that ARE ONE!
Genesis 1:26 Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals,[a] and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”

27 So God created mankind in his own image,
in the image of God he created them;

Also consider the crystal clear statement John 16:28
28 I came from the Father and entered the world; now I am leaving the world and going back to the Father.”

I believe this is clear enough.

An2elect2:
Am sorry but this does not answer the question. You say there are three persons who are co equal, co eternal in one God. And i ask where in the bible is God described this way, as a trinity?


Oh my! is this how you interpret scriptures? how do you know it is the same way it was used in these passages? I read them but i didn't see any relationship btw them and Jesus being described as the everlasting Father.

I think you should not mix up something here. Trinitarianism says the Father is not the son and the son is not the Father. They title father is of course reserved, exclusively for the Father. Yea thats why He is the Father and the son holds the "sonship" title below the Father. Why then would the son be called the everlasting father? will two fathers spring up later on? It was his name. It was what it denotes. Everlasting Father! Isaiah did not say it means Lordship. He said everlasting father! why should we single this particular name out to give it another meaning?

I guess prince of peace, counsellor, wonderful, mighty God all connote something different too. Really?

you have said it all my friend. Don't mind the OP he has nothing to say. It's just clear that he's making fun of the word of God and doesn't know the bible. It takes the Spirit that dwells in us to confirm this to us. Keep up the good work

Scholar8200:
Let's go down to some verses in the same chapter, see John 14:9-12
9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father? 10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. 11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works’ sake. 12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

Jesus' life was such that The Father was revealed through Him. As Luke 10:22, declares, “All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows who the Son is except the Father, and no one knows who the Father is except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.” And He revealed the Father to the disciples as stated in John 17:6


This is why Jesus could pray the way He did in John 17:6
6 I have manifested Your Name [I have revealed Your very Self, Your real Self] to the people whom You have given Me out of the world. They were Yours, and You gave them to Me, and they have obeyed and kept Your word.

this message was meant for you not the other person. You are right and don't mind the op he is only making fun of the bible and doenst know the scriptures. Keep up the good work. It takes those who are in Christ to fully comprehend the Holy Trinity.

zodiakzax:
this message was meant for you not the other person. You are right and don't mind the op he is only making fun of the bible and doenst know the scriptures. Keep up the good work. It takes those who are in Christ to fully comprehend the Holy Trinity.

Glory to God

In the olden days, God spoke as the Father. In the NT, Jesus, the Word, who is also God spoke as the Son. Now the Holy Sprit speaks to us as God because He represents God, the Father. The word 'God' simply means the Creator of the Universe. The word 'God' is used to show 'supremacy' or 'highest authority' in the universe. We believe there is one God. I believe that the Father, the Son (Jesus) and the Holy Spirit (Helper) exist. The Father is in heaven, the Son is also in heaven sitting with the Father at His right-hand. The Holy Spirit is on the earth and dwells in us. The Father was in charge in the OT. The Son was in charge during his time. Now, the Holy Spirit is in charge. The three personalities all come under the name 'God.'
Here are two examples:
1. A man and his wife are joined together to become one in marriage. The family name becomes one in that the man or his wife responds when the name is called. This, howeve, does not indicate that they have lost their individual personalities. Each of them works as an individual for the good of the family.
2.Three people can decide to engage in partnership business. They have to come under a particular name for them to be united. Whenever the name of the company is mentioned the three answer or anyone of them answers. This does not mean that they are the same person but different persons, who come together in unity to become one. No one acts on his own authority but only with the consent of others.
In the case of the Trinity, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit have their own authority or will power. Because of their unity, the Son and the Holy Spirit submitted to the authority of the Father and obey Him. This makes the Father greatest of the Son and the Spirit and the world.
This does not mean thatt 'They' do not retain their individual personalities with their distinct functions or works.
The confusion here is how these three personalities agree unanimously or speak with one voice in everything they do. It would have been better understood if it were only one personality speaking or working. This is a mystery known only to 'Them' No man has understood it. When we get to heaven, everything will be understood fully.
In conclusion, I believe in the existence of the Godhead- the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit being united as one God, but are different personalities, with distinct works. I rest my case!

johnw74:



Jesus prayed to the Father to send to believers another comforter,
that is three persons, jesus, the Father and another comforter (the Holy Spirit).

The Father is God, Jesus (the Word) is the same God, the Holy Spirit is the same God.

You don't believe those scriptures?

Dead wrong!

I have already addressed who is the Father, and who is Jesus, in similar posts here. So i wont waste the time going all over that again. Please, feel free to search them out.

But one thing you must understtand is that. THERE IS NEVER ANYWHERE IT IS WRITTEN THAT THERE ARE THREE PERSONS MERGING TO BECOME ONE GOD. When you say this, you are making God A LIAR, and God can not Lie! Num.23vs19.

How?

Jesus made it it clear that, they Samaritans (representing the Gentiles in General) does'nt know what they are worshiping;

John 4:22 ►
You worship you know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.''

what this meant is that, the Jews knew more than we do, the God that we claim to be worshiping today. The only difference is that, they were blinded in part to pave the way for us to be grafted into the body, buy adoption, through faith in Jesus Christ. Otherwise, the Jews knew that you can't chop their God into three dinstinct persons, and merge them together to become ONE.

Thus, in Deut.6vs4, the Grand commandment was given: ''hear O Isreal; the Lord thy God is ONE LORD'' not two, not three in one,
BUT ONE!

The jews understand this perfectly well!

The terms Father, is not a name, Son, is not a name, Holy Ghost, is not a name. They are TITLES OF THE SAME ENTITY CHARACTERIZING THE DISPENSATIONAL MANIFESTATION OF THAT ENTITY.

For instance, a man becomes a father at home cause he has children, then in the office, he is a manager, and to his immediate parents, he is a son. But father, manager, and son, does not make up his name. Rather they are titles he derived from the very responsibility of each of the positions he finds himself. He has a name by which his parents know him by.
That is how the nature of God constitutes. In the old tesament, he was identified by many titles, such as jehova-Jireh, Jehovah Elohim, El-shaida, The I Am, the Lord thy God, and so on..
For in the Old, He manifested as Jehovah the Father, God above us. In the Gospels, he came as The Son, Emmanuel God with us, and in the Acts of the Apostles down to this Age, He became The Holy Soirit, God in Us!
All three manifestation of One Entity.
Father Son, Holy Ghost were Not His name. They were Titles.

Now, what is his name then? Well, THE NAME OF THE FATHER IS JESUS.

John.5vs43

THE NAME OF THE SON IS JESUS!

Matt.1vs21.

And, THE NAME OF THE HOLY SPIRIT IS JESUS!

Now, watch it: John 14vs16,

'l (this spoken Word that has become Flesh) *will pray the FATHER, (The Deity in the Begining who spoke the Word that became Flesh) *and He shall Give you (the desciples and all those that would subsequently believe in Him later on) '*another Comforter (meaning He was the First comforter to them as long as He was with them, and this promised other comforter is the Original nature of that Deity back in Genesis') --*and He will be with you forever.''

Now, watch it;

John.14vs26--


......the comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send IN MY NAME.....''

what is the Name of the Holy Spirit Now, nothing BUT JESUS! Oh gloroius God!

And check this; wasn't He suppose to leave so that the comforter can come? Behold the shocker!

Verse 18.. '' I will not leave you (the desciples, and all that will thereafter believe in Him) Comfortless; I WILL COME TO YOU.

Who came back?

BOOM! JESUS IS THAT SAME COMFORTER!.

FUrthermore, the Entity Jehovah in the Old have these to say,and He can not lie;

I am He, before me there was no God, neither can there be after me...Isaiah 43vs10

then why are some of you trying to force another god inside of Him?

....is there a God beside me? , yea, there is no God, i know not any?....Isaiah.44vs8.

Why are you then adding to him?

Now, in Isaiah.40vs1-5, and 35vs3-6, He Jehovah promise that Himself will come to his people for salvation. The jews understand this and where waiting on Him. But when He came, they could not detect Him as d SAVIOUR, because He hid himself (partial blindness to d traditional Jews, so that salvation could come to you and me, the Gentiles,) Isaiah 45vs15, Rom.11vs 25.
And so, when He jesus eventually came and refer back to what he was telling them in the old, they took up stones to stone Him, why? Not because He was from God, but because HE MAKETH HIMSELF EQUAL WITH GOD. How? Because the Jews know that THE SON OF GOD MEANS GOD HIMSELF. For they knew correctly that THERE IS ONLY ONE GOD, not two or three dinstinct persons making one.
They were right, and that was why they wanted to Kill Him, but they were wrong because THEY DIDNT KNOW THIER GOD HAD TAKING THE FORM OF MAN, even when he was given them the expo!.

BIBLESPEAKS:


Its not about being a JW. Is there a scripture that calls jesus God the son? Do we have a scripture which is written "God the Holy spirit"?

If that passage of scripture exists - I'll become a trinitarian.

If what u're saying is true, then its going to be in the scriptures. God introduced himself to us through the scriptures, so the scriptures should be explicit in its explanation of 3 persons in one God.

Show me the expressions God the father, God the son and God the Holy spirit.

Waiting...

Reply to this first,
you said where does it say in those verses that it is referring to God the father.

johnw74:

You are jw is why you cannot see it,
you don't know that Jesus Christ is God,
and you don't know that the Holy Spirit is God.

The voice from heaven saying this is my beloved Son,
is clearly God the Father.
And Jesus is clearly the Word, who is God,
John 1:1...and the Word was God.
that just leaves the Holy Spirit who I believe, know is God,
and not just God's power.
If you had God's Holy Spirit you would know it is He.

How can you not at least see God the Father in Mat 3:17?

And the same with John 14:16, "I" is Jesus Christ, the Word, God.
And again the Father is obviously God.
Another comforter is referring to the Holy Spirit.
Comforter is not an appropriate word for God's power, is it?
it's very personal, like as in a person, God even.

BIBLESPEAKS:


Show me the expressions God the father, God the son and God the Holy spirit.

Waiting...

Joh_6:27 Do not labor for the food that perishes, but for that food which endures to everlasting life, which the Son of Man will give you. For God the Father sealed Him.
There are 13 instances of "God the Father" in the New Testament.

Show me the expression Michael the Word.

You don't reply to where you are shown wrong, and your questions are weak.

BIBLESPEAKS:



A large percentage of Trinitarians don't understand what is meant when the Bible says Jesus is God's word.

If I was a president for example, and I'm supposed to visit another country to strengthen ties. But for some reasons I couldnt make the trip but decided to send my minister of foreign affairs - Mr John. It follows that Mr John is my spokesman, he is my word.

It doesn't mean that Mr John and I are the same person.

Well you are right there,
God and the Word are two persons:
John1:1 ...and the word was with God...

Christ came to reveal the father to us. Christ is God's word. He is a different spirit person from his father. And as it follows: he's subject to his father.

You are wrong there,
God and the Word are both God, One God, One Spirit:
John 1:1 ...and the Word was God.

In John 1:1 God comes from the Greek (theos)
In John 1:1 God when referring to the Word is also (theos)

It is an evil thing to write another bible and change it to "a god"

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word (logos), and the Word (logos) was with God (theos), and the Word was God (theos).
Clearly two persons, One God,
except to those who have been blinded for rejecting Truth.

.

Appleyard:


Dead wrong!

Well show me what is dead wrong with my few words.

johnw74:

Jesus prayed to the Father to send to believers another comforter,
that is three persons, Jesus, the Father and another comforter (the Holy Spirit).

The Father is God, Jesus (the Word) is the same God, the Holy Spirit is the same God.

You don't believe those scriptures?

But one thing you must understtand is that. THERE IS NEVER ANYWHERE IT IS WRITTEN THAT THERE ARE THREE PERSONS MERGING TO BECOME ONE GOD. When you say this, you are making God A LIAR, and God can not Lie! Num.23vs19.

What rot you speak.

Barnabaseloka:

1. According to the Scriptures, how come that Jesus ascended to heaven and is seated at the right hand of God, pleading with the Father on our behalves? Will Jesus be seating at the right-hand side of himself and pleading with himself?

I have already addressed the issue of who is Jesus and and who is the Father. Check my other posts. Now why don't you tell me who is Jesus and who is the Father and who is the Holy Ghost? Before you jump to conclusions that you dont understand!

Jesus is sitting at the right of God means THE right hand of the MAJESTY ON HIGH.--Heb.8vs1.

The word 'God' is an object of worship, not a name of any person. God is a deity, and this deity is a Spirit, and Jesus is the Flesh of that God. That is why he said, he that have seen me have seen the father. In other words, HE IS THE FATHER, How?
Because, the Spirit which is the original nature of that deity called the Father, is dwelling in the spoken-word-Flesh created by Him for salvation. AND THE WORD OF GOD IS GOD HIMSELF, NOT ANOTHER SEPERATE GOD.

Thus, when he returns to the majesty on high, it means going back to his place of authority.

And this is where it became interesting! When a man dies, the Spirit goes back to his maker, But the Flesh remained and decay on the ground. But in the case of Jesus, it was not so. FOR HE AROSE WITH HIS COMPLETE BODY. why? How come? Because THE SPIRIT THAT WAS IN THAT BODY WAS GOD HIMSELF! And that body was His FLESH for the sole purpose of salvation.

Thus, to become the sole High priest after the other of Mechizedek, and to act as the only Mediator and intercessor between God(the deity in spirit form) and man, that Body had to go up with Him.
And it is in that body (the spoken -Word that became flesh,) dwells the Originator, God who Spoke and own the Word; that is why it is written,
''God (the spirit deity) is in Christ ( the Flesh the spirit deity created) reconcilling the world to himself.''

That is, God took His own Body up, to the Mercy Seat, which is now the Throne, and as long as those marks are there, the blood is there; that body continues to Mediate and intercede for us between God that is inside it. While a token of His anointing (His Holy Spirit) is working wonders among men and sealing them unto the day of Redemption. The second coming.

Greatest Mystery of all!

Furthermore, where do yiu think Christ is seating? On the right, and His father is seated at Left side or on Top huh?

it will interest you to know that JESUS will be seating on a glorious throne--Matt.25vs31, and He is already seated in that throne, and guess where he is seating.....:p:p.

..Not right, not left not even by anybody...BUT...:p.. IN THE MIDST OF THE THRONE!

Rev. 7 vs 17..

That is your right hand of God!

What a Mystery!

Pls, i want ro rest now. I will answer the rest tomorow.

Stay calm and pray the Lord for understanding. See ya..

BIBLESPEAKS:


Show me the expressions God the father, God the son and God the Holy spirit.

Waiting...

jw blindness is amazing,
The expression God the Father is written many times in the Bible.
The Son is shown to be God in John 1 and other, the Father even called Him God.
A spirit is a being whether heavenly or earthly, the Holy Spirit - being is powerful,
but not just a power, a power is not a being.
the Holy Spirit is God through common reasoning - sense,
also through scripture if you could see it.

Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
The Hebrew word that God comes from is plural, which is understandable
as God, is God and the Word, and flows on well with God saying to the Word
"Let Us make man in Our image, after Our likeness" etc.
The Word who became Jesus Christ is the exact image of God.

Although this is addressing a comment from BIBLESPEAKS it's for others and not for unbelievers.

johnw74:


Joh_6:27 Do not labor for the food that perishes, but for that food which endures to everlasting life, which the Son of Man will give you. For God the Father sealed Him.
There are 13 instances of "God the Father" in the New Testament.

Show me the expression Michael the Word.

You don't reply to where you are shown wrong, and your questions are weak.

You say my questions are weak?

Ànd you cnt even answer them properly. Did you see only God the father? What of the other persons? God the son and God the Holy spirit?

Appleyard:


The word 'God' is an object of worship, not a name of any person. God is a deity, and this deity is a Spirit, and Jesus is the Flesh of that God. That is why he said, he that have seen me have seen the father. In other words, HE IS THE FATHER,

Jesus is the Word of God not God the Father,
the Word was with God, two persons.
and the Word was God, One God.

How? Because, the Spirit which is the original nature of that deity called the Father, is dwelling in the spoken-word-Flesh created by Him for salvation. AND THE WORD OF GOD IS GOD HIMSELF, NOT ANOTHER SEPERATE GOD.

Not another separate God but another separate Person,
The Word of God became flesh, not God the Father became flesh.


Pro 8:22 Jehovah possessed me from the beginning of His way, before His works of old.

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 He was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things came into being through Him, and without Him not even one thing came into being that has come into being.

Col 1:17 And He is before all things, and by Him all things consist.



Here is God and the Word (two persons) back in eternity before there was anything else but God:

Pro 8:22 Jehovah possessed me from the beginning of His way, before His works of old.
Pro 8:23 I was anointed from everlasting, from the beginning, before the earth ever was.
Pro 8:24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no springs heavy with water.
Pro 8:25 Before the mountains were settled, before the hills, I was brought forth.
Pro 8:26 before He had made the earth, or the fields or the highest part of the dust of the world.
Pro 8:27 When He prepared the heavens, I was there; when He set a circle upon the face of the deep;
Pro 8:28 when He set the clouds above; when He made the strong fountains of the deep;
Pro 8:29 when He gave to the sea its limit that the waters should not pass His command; when He appointed the foundations of the earth;
Pro 8:30 even I was a workman at His side; and I was daily His delight, rejoicing always before Him;

Stay calm and pray the Lord for understanding. See ya..

OH BOY!