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Why Is Science And Reasoning Such A Bad Thing? - Religion (2) - Nairaland

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Re: Why Is Science And Reasoning Such A Bad Thing? by PastorAIO: 4:39pm On Feb 20, 2009
. . . yet I wish that quantum mechanics had not been discovered until the Naturalists had defined their positions on what is Naturalism and what is Supernatural.  It is the findings of quantum mechanics that they are aware of that makes it so hard for them to define their position and have to recourse to much cerebral gymnastics.
Re: Why Is Science And Reasoning Such A Bad Thing? by mnwankwo(m): 4:46pm On Feb 20, 2009
jagunlabi:

You are looking for journals?I thought you know a thing or two about quantum physics.But then you say it is one of your "hobbies".Obviously,quantum physicists don't make "spiritual" publications(atleast they don't call it that),but then the domain of quantum physics is at the nuclear and the subnuclear scale called the plank scale,the scale where matter no longer exist.That is why i call it spiritual because at that scale,science and spirituality come together.Inferred evidence?Science has zilch evidence that matter exist,and no selfrespecting scientist will tell you that.When physicist dug deep into the fundermental particles of matter which is atom,what was discovered there?That the atom is 99.99999999999% empty.And at the subnuclear level what is known as matter is replaced by what physicist called WAVE FUNCTION,and at this level what they discovered was that laws that guide the physical world matter no longer applies.
As a QP enthusiast you should know all this.The Einstein relativity equation(E=MC²) reveals that matter does not exist.That everything we see is made of energy.

I am aware of all the stuff you are saying. I said that the spiritual interpretation you are giving to it is not what the scientific data says. The Einsteins equation did not say that matter does not exist, it shows that matter can be converted to energy and vice versa, that is equivalence of matter and energy. If matter does not exist, what is M (mass) doing in the equation. Current evidence from astrophysics and cosmology suggests that the universe is 4% matter, 22% dark matter and 74% dark energy.Cheers

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Re: Why Is Science And Reasoning Such A Bad Thing? by jagunlabi(m): 4:58pm On Feb 20, 2009
m_nwankwo:

The Einsteins equation did not say that matter does not exist, it shows that matter can be converted to energy and vice versa. If matter does not exist, what is M doing in the equation. Cheers
The M stands for matter,and what the equation is actually saying is not that matter can be converted to energy,but that matter M(MC²) equals E energy.Matter is energy.Your interpretation is really old and thus inaccurate.

m_nwankwo:

I am aware of all the stuff you are saying. I said that the spiritual interpretation you are giving to it is not what the scientific data says. The Einsteins equation did not say that matter does not exist, it shows that matter can be converted to energy and vice versa. If matter does not exist, what is M doing in the equation. Cheers
Since i am not a quantum physicist myself,allow me to give you a link to a video that explains how science has merged with spirituality(not religiousity,please) through quantum physics.
Here's the video.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1HDn6yCHCtc
Re: Why Is Science And Reasoning Such A Bad Thing? by mnwankwo(m): 5:07pm On Feb 20, 2009
jagunlabi:

The M stands for matter,and what the equation is actually saying is not that matter can be converted to energy,but that matter M(MC²) equals E energy.Matter is energy.Your interpretation is really old and thus inaccurate.
Since i am not a quantum physicist myself,allow me to give you a link to a video that explains how science has merged with spirituality(not religiousity,please) through quantum physics.
Here's the video.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1HDn6yCHCtc

I did not say that M stands for matter. M stands for mass and mass is an intrinsic property of matter. See the link below for a simplified version of what constitutes our universe.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_matter
Re: Why Is Science And Reasoning Such A Bad Thing? by jagunlabi(m): 5:08pm On Feb 20, 2009
Watch the video clip first,then we'll talk.The clip has a quantum physicist talking about the subject.
m_nwankwo:

I did not say that M stands for matter. M stands for mass and mass is an intrinsic property of matter. See the link below for a simplified version of what constitutes our universe

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_matter
Re: Why Is Science And Reasoning Such A Bad Thing? by mnwankwo(m): 5:32pm On Feb 20, 2009
jagunlabi:

Watch the video clip first,then we'll talk.The clip has a quantum physicist talking about the subject.

I have watched the video clip and there is no where the physicist said that matter does not exist.
Re: Why Is Science And Reasoning Such A Bad Thing? by jagunlabi(m): 5:41pm On Feb 20, 2009
m_nwankwo:

I have watched the video clip and there is no where the physicist said that matter does not exist.
Then you did not understand a thing he said.He said the deeper you go the less matter is there,the more abstract nature becomes,the more alive and the more conscious nature becomes until you get to the level of pure abstraction,pure being,pure selfaware consciousness.What on earth do you think he was talking about there?Matter?
Re: Why Is Science And Reasoning Such A Bad Thing? by PastorAIO: 6:09pm On Feb 20, 2009
jagunlabi:

Watch the video clip first,then we'll talk.The clip has a quantum physicist talking about the subject.

For me alarm bells first rang when I saw that he was a professor from Maharishi university of management. While that in itself does not nullify what he has to say, one has to be aware that he is coming from an angle, a hindu/vedic angle that he's is trying to promote.

Then I was disappointed to hear him talk about the discovery of the Unified Field. I don't think that any such field has been discovered. It has been postulated in Superstring theory, but then there are many alternative hypotheses. For instance Roger Penrose has a similar hypothesis based on what he calls Twistors. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twistor_theory
and http://users.ox.ac.uk/~tweb/00004/

These theories have been developed in an attempt to bring about a marriage of Quantum Mechanics and Relativity Theory into what is often called a TOE (Theory of Everything). The marriage has not occurred yet and these two great theories continue to contradict each other.

however I do agree with him on a few things. First that the most basic stuff in existence is Consciousness, and everything else in the universe is derived from consciousness. I have made my position on this clear in this thread: https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-137750.64.html

There, I made the statement that:

I know for sure that I am conscious because I experience it. I can never know for a fact whether or not you are a conscious being. It can never be demonstrated to me, your consciousness. It could be that you are a very clever automaton or some form of Artificial Intelligence. They have AI now that can have conversations and appear to think like conscious humans but in actually fact it is just sophisticated programming. How am I sure that you are not just a cleverly neurologically programmed automaton. I'll never know if you are in actual fact conscious because you cannot demonstrate or communicate that to me.

I, for reasons of my own, actually believe that the entire universe is conscious, from the Rocks to the wind blowing through the trees down to Space and time itself. And as for perception which is the ability to receive and retain information, everything can receive information. A plasticene receives information when you imprint it with a stamp. There are many qualities of consciousness and I fear that you might be taking ego-bound consciousness for the whole of consciousness.

It actually starts from this post: https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-137750.32.html#msg2312206 where the buffoon I'm speaking with says this:
Quote
I take it that you are an expert on the Tao too. What makes you so sure that the Tao is not conscious?

I am not an expert on the Tao. I'm not so sure that the Tao is not conscious, my intention wasn't so much to describe the Tao but to give an idea - through a vague comparism - of what can be inferred from Heraclitus's writings.

There are a couple of other things that the videos says that I agree with but I am very cautious about people trying to connect quantum physics with the Hindu Vedas.
Re: Why Is Science And Reasoning Such A Bad Thing? by mnwankwo(m): 6:10pm On Feb 20, 2009
jagunlabi:

Then you did not understand a thing he said.He said the deeper you go the less matter is there,the more abstract nature becomes,the more alive and the more conscious nature becomes until you get to the level of pure abstraction,pure being,pure selfaware consciousness.What on earth do you think he was talking about there?Matter?

I earlier cautioned that  it is unscientific to make scientific statements that you have no evidence for. Even in your sentence (underlined) you acknowleged that the guy did not say that matter does not exist. Just accept that you made an initial mistake. Sure they guy simply said that the deeper you go, beyound subatomic particles, the closer you get to "life" and that is correct. He choose to call the nature of being that is closer to "Life" universal consciousness. I dispute that for with more penatration beyound to what he already had, he will come to counsciouness that trancends what he described as universal counsciousness. Your argument is analogous to one who have seen water vapour and then declare that ice does not exist and yet ice, water and water vapour are made of the same elements and it is the change in the vibrational frequencioes of these molecules that determine the form it manifests.

Matter is the lowest manifestation of energy. Cheers.
Re: Why Is Science And Reasoning Such A Bad Thing? by jagunlabi(m): 7:12pm On Feb 20, 2009
m_nwankwo:

I earlier cautioned that  it is unscientific to make scientific statements that you have no evidence for.
Actually there is an ample evidence for it.Have you heard of the infamous "Double Slit Experiment"?That is the experiment that showed clear evidence under laboratory conditions that matter does not exist.
According to the experiment,when particles are not observed,they are waves of possibilities,but when they are observed,they snap into particles of experience.
m_nwankwo:

Even in your sentence (underlined) you acknowleged that the guy did not say that matter does not exist. Just accept that you made an initial mistake. Sure they guy simply said that the deeper you go, beyound subatomic particles, the closer you get to "life" and that is correct. He choose to call the nature of being that is closer to "Life" universal consciousness.
This shows that you really did not grasp what the guy said,and you are just misinterpreting every word he said.He said,based on the bias that physicists had, that the universe is made of dead matter,of inert matter,as they delved deeper into nature to try to find what is at the base of it all,the fundermental building block of nature,they discovered what they were not expecting,and that is less and less matter and more and state of pure abstraction.They did not start the search with a believe that there was no matter,it was what they discovered,and that is why he said it the way he said it.The physicists started with the search for the fundermental particle of nature and ended up with the discovery that there is no matter,afterall.And that at the base of it all is what is the universal consciousness,what he termed,the Unified Field,which is a non-material field.
m_nwankwo:

I dispute that for with more penatration beyound to what he already had, he will come to counsciouness that trancends what he described as universal counsciousness.
There is no penetration beyond the level he described because very consciousness is what transcends all physical things.So you really have no ground to dispute anything.
m_nwankwo:

Your argument is analogous to one who have seen water vapour and then declare that ice does not exist and yet ice, water and water vapour are made of the same elements and it is the change in the vibrational frequencioes of these molecules that determine the form it manifests. 
This is very poor analogy and i find no relavance to what we are discussing here.
m_nwankwo:

Matter is the lowest manifestation of energy. Cheers. 
That is wrong.Matter is the manifestation of energy perceived through our 5 senses.Without conscious beings perceiving energy cannot manifest matter.So,there is no matter as such.
Re: Why Is Science And Reasoning Such A Bad Thing? by jagunlabi(m): 7:16pm On Feb 20, 2009
There are a couple of other things that the videos says that I agree with but I am very cautious about people trying to connect quantum physics with the Hindu Vedas.
Why be cautious?The vedic literature got it right,and science has been groping in the dark for so long,only to finally find out what the vedic science has been saying all along.
I think western scientists should just hold up there hands and admit that they've been on a red herring about the material universe and how it came about.
Re: Why Is Science And Reasoning Such A Bad Thing? by mnwankwo(m): 7:33pm On Feb 20, 2009
jagunlabi:

Actually there is an ample evidence for it.Have you heard of the infamous "Double Slit Experiment"?That is the experiment that showed clear evidence under laboratory conditions that matter does not exist.
According to the experiment,when particles are not observed,they are waves of possibilities,but when they are observed,they snap into particles of experience.This shows that you really did not grasp what the guy said,and you are just misinterpreting every word he said.He said,based on the bias that physicists had, that the universe is made of dead matter,of inert matter,as they delved deeper into nature to try to find what is at the base of it all,the fundermental building block of nature,they discovered what they were not expecting,and that is less and less matter and more and state of pure abstraction.They did not start the search with a believe that there was no matter,it was what they discovered,and that is why he said it the way he said it.The physicists started with the search for the fundermental particle of nature and ended up with the discovery that there is no matter,afterall.And that at the base of it all is what is the universal consciousness,what he termed,the Unified Field,which is a non-material field.There is no penetration beyond the level he described because very consciousness is what transcends all physical things.So you really have no ground to dispute anything.This is very poor analogy and i find no relavance to what we are discussing here.That is wrong.Matter is the manifestation of energy perceived through our 5 senses.Without conscious beings perceiving energy cannot manifest matter.So,there is no matter as such.

OK then. I do not think that it is helpful to the discussion to continue to debate whether matter exist or not. The double slit experiment again did not show that matter does not exist, rather it demonstrates particle-wave duality of light and other quantum particles. See below:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double-slit_experiment

See also wave particle duality below
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wave-particle_duality

Stay blessed.
Re: Why Is Science And Reasoning Such A Bad Thing? by PastorAIO: 7:48pm On Feb 20, 2009
Jagunlabi can you please tell me where the vedas mention Superstring theory. Don't get me wrong, I'm a big fan of Indian philosophy. Yet I am cautious about anything that uses religion and spirituality in such a political way. It is clear that the Veda is in a large part the sacred text created by a conquering people to subjugate the people they conquered. Hence it is full of such nonsense as the Caste System which is still a source of much inequality and injustice in India today.

That is not to say that there are no elements of spiritual insight in the Vedas, however a blanket statement such as
science has been groping in the dark for so long,only to finally find out what the vedic science has been saying all along
is too Gbolaa for my liking. I think the issue requires a bit more subtlety of appraisal. Furthermore these things have been found in the spiritual and philosophic traditions of many peoples all over the world. Or rather, it can be interpreted from the traditions of other peoples just as easily as it can be interpreted out of the Vedas.
Re: Why Is Science And Reasoning Such A Bad Thing? by jagunlabi(m): 7:55pm On Feb 20, 2009
Pastor AIO:

Jagunlabi can you please tell me where the vedas mention Superstring theory. Don't get me wrong, I'm a big fan of Indian philosophy.
Lol!What a question!Come on!They used a different language.Superstring theory is a modern scientific term.The vedic scientists - who were very ancient - used a different term.The main point is,they knew about this field thousands of years before western science did.
Pastor AIO:

Yet I am cautious about anything that uses religion and spirituality in such a political way. It is clear that the Veda is in a large part the sacred text created by a conquering people to subjugate the people they conquered. Hence it is full of such nonsense as the Caste System which is still a source of much inequality and injustice in India today.
What?Politics?How did politics get into this?Aren't we talking about something that is outside politics?Atleast i thought we were.I am not even going to get into that side of the issue,so i will pretend i did not see it.Let us stick to the issue of the existence of matter and the unified field,or universal consciousness,or whatever one wants to call it.
Re: Why Is Science And Reasoning Such A Bad Thing? by PastorAIO: 8:03pm On Feb 20, 2009
jagunlabi:

Lol!What a question!Come on!They used a different language.Superstring theory is a modern scientific term.The vedic scientists - who were very ancient - used a different term.The main point is,they knew about this field thousands of years before western science did.


What?Politics?How did politics get into this?Aren't we talking about something that is outside politics?Atleast i thought we were.I am not even going to get into that side of the issue,so i will pretend i did not see it.Let us stick to the issue of the existence of matter and the unified field,or universal consciousness,or whatever one wants to call it.

Well, what was the Sanskrit term that we can translate into 'Superstring' today? What is the name that they called the Field and what were the properties that they said that this field had?

Okay you can ignore the fact that the vedas are the authority for the evil caste system that operates in India till this day if that pleases you. Perhaps they discovered the unified field and deduced from that that they must be racist and segregationist.

If we must stay on topic then we should go back to talking about Science and Reasoning and why it is or is not such a bad thing.
Re: Why Is Science And Reasoning Such A Bad Thing? by jagunlabi(m): 8:15pm On Feb 20, 2009
Pastor AIO:

Well, what was the Sanskrit term that we can translate into 'Superstring' today? What is the name that they called the Field and what were the properties that they said that this field had?
I think the ancient vedic term for the unified field or the superstring field is the "Brahmin".In buddhism it is called, the "Emptiness".That is the source of all physical creation.
Re: Why Is Science And Reasoning Such A Bad Thing? by PastorAIO: 12:25pm On Feb 21, 2009
jagunlabi:

I think the ancient vedic term for the unified field or the superstring field is the "Brahmin".In buddhism it is called, the "Emptiness".That is the source of all physical creation.

Brahman (bráhman-, nominative bráhma ब्रह्म) is a concept of Hinduism. Brahman is the unchanging, infinite, immanent, and transcendent reality which is the Divine Ground of all matter, energy, time, space, being, and everything beyond in this Universe.
from here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brahman
In physics, a unified field theory is a type of field theory that allows all of the fundamental forces between elementary particles to be written in terms of a single field. There is no accepted unified field theory yet, and this remains an open line of research.
from here:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unified_field_theory

There is as yet no unified field theory that has been discovered or accepted to exist. So to claim that physics has discovered what the hindus were saying all along is erroneous.

But what I find more interesting is the desperate need to make claims of scientific support when one is pushing an agenda. To the extent of twisting the facts about what science is saying or not, and what it has discovered or not. Of course one cannot blame them when we see what the effect of having a veneer of scientific credibility can do to impress the impressionable. This is not a new thing. Quacks have been doing it forever. There is almost no ideology in this world that doesn't try to bolster it's credibility with some sort of quasi-science. Just check out Nairaland's resident Atheists amongst others.
The previous scientific explanations have shown that it is the access to the fundamental quantum-mechanical level of nature's functioning and the utilization of the principle of the Field Effect that makes it possible to create coherence and harmony within a system. Maharishi's supreme approach to World Peace precisely applies these findings by utilizing a Field Effect at the most fundamental level of Natural Law —the Unified Field of all the Laws of Nature, as recently discovered by Superstring Theory.
From here: http://worldpeaceendowment.org/invincibility/invincibility6.html

Maharishi is not the only one but he is one of the best at twisting things.
Re: Why Is Science And Reasoning Such A Bad Thing? by ajadrage: 2:42pm On Feb 21, 2009
Science will ultimately come to be reconciled with reasoning as she is still at an infancy. A field that is clueless as to why the cell suddenly stops reproducing, or what triggers the ageing gene, one that is at a loss as to the true relevance of black holes in the multiverse and their significance to galaxy formation and as such potential life. Galileo in his tragic genius, were he to be alive today would have seriously questioned the possibility of a man manned space station. So the science of today would become obsolete with the discoveries of the future. And as each wave of discovery opens the door to man's irresistible quest for knowledge, science would be melted in reason and even religious views would need to be modified as they are both artificial constructions. However, the knowledge inherent in existence await discovery by inquisitive minds, and science at present provides the most empirical avenue for such a quest to be undertaken, the consequence would ultimately play itself out and reason would be called upon to prevail (at least, every one is now talking about the effect of climate change and necessity for clean energy, althought it's been an issue for close to three decades).
Re: Why Is Science And Reasoning Such A Bad Thing? by MadMax1(f): 5:15pm On Feb 22, 2009
Matter is the manifestation of energy perceived through our 5 senses.Without conscious beings perceiving energy cannot manifest matter.So,there is no matter as such.

That's quite a definition you've got there. I don't pretend to understand it. Without conscious beings perceiving energy,matter cannot manifest itself? If every human being on earth were to die somehow, the physical universe would vanish, because it's our conscious regard that keeps it in existence, that manifests it? The moment we take our eyes off it, and there's no consciousness to preen for, the moon takes a hike?

The Double String theory and experiments demonstrate that electrons,light and other quantum thingies show particle-wave duality. It says nothing about matter not existing, or it being a function of human or any other consciousness.It does say that the patterns of photons of light are unpredictable,and that nothing is known about photon activity betweeen its emission source, and its receptor: photons from sunlight and our retina. If this could somehow be discovered,interference would change what the receptor,our retina,perceives.

How does this say matter does not exist,how does it originate a spiritual philosophy,or show that science has been investigating things spiritual? If a scientist sets out to demonstrate the dual nature of quantum particles, is he also testing and verifying spiritual things as well, even though the thought did not once enter his mind? How's that? Because you say so?

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