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Re: Finally! The Igbo Languages And Proto-Igbo Reconstructions by OdenigboAroli(m): 10:34pm On Jun 15, 2015
Ihuomadinihu:
I've always suspected that the infamous /f/ and /n/ lexical items in Northern Igbo lects were introduced by Nri people. wink
How did the Northern Abia people(Ohafia,Item etc) acquire f in place of h in their dialects though? Hmmm.

What makes the f & n lexical terms infamous?
In my usual character, I will run you down but I want to understand you,firstly.
Re: Finally! The Igbo Languages And Proto-Igbo Reconstructions by OdenigboAroli(m): 10:57pm On Jun 15, 2015
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Re: Finally! The Igbo Languages And Proto-Igbo Reconstructions by Ihuomadinihu: 11:01pm On Jun 15, 2015
OdenigboAroli:


What makes the f & n lexical terms infamous?
In my usual character, I will run you down but I want to understand you,firstly.
Something must be wrong with you!
Re: Finally! The Igbo Languages And Proto-Igbo Reconstructions by OdenigboAroli(m): 12:56am On Jun 16, 2015
Ihuomadinihu:

Something must be wrong with you!

Actually,I was just beginning to think your insanity has take to the market square.
If you feel I misunderstand you then the best thing to do is to correct me... Don't wanna derail this thread.
Re: Finally! The Igbo Languages And Proto-Igbo Reconstructions by odumchi: 7:13am On Jun 16, 2015
ChinenyeN and Radoillo, well done. I've been trailing this discussion since it began and although it may only be two pages in, I've learned so much already. I'm a bit occupied at the moment so I won't able to contribute/address your statement right now, ChinenyeN, but I have been slowly nitpicking those hefty PDFs! Para nni gawa!

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Re: Finally! The Igbo Languages And Proto-Igbo Reconstructions by Ihuomadinihu: 7:23am On Jun 16, 2015
OdenigboAroli:


Actually,I was just beginning to think your insanity has take to the market square.
If you feel I misunderstand you then the best thing to do is to correct me... Don't wanna derail this thread.
You are being stupi-d! People are trying to solve what myths and legends couldn't solve for Igbos and you just had to rant because i mentioned Nri and Anambra in my post.

1 Like

Re: Finally! The Igbo Languages And Proto-Igbo Reconstructions by Nobody: 2:05pm On Jun 16, 2015
ChinenyeN:


It also raises one more question in my mind. Where are the pattern-breaking communities actually located (with respect to the Eri/Nri sphere of influence). What we might be seeing are the remnants of previously Ale-speaking lects that might have undergone anenization during the second wave. Of course, it's just a speculation with no real basis, since I cannot account for the location of these pattern-breaking communities.

What I perceived to be 'pattern-breaking' communities are actually on the fringes of the Nri hegemony area - Southern Enugu, Anambra south and south east of the Awka Uplands, Ane-speaking areas of Delta. However, I no longer think that what I originally perceived as 'pattern-breaking' is really 'pattern-breaking'. This is the beauty of discussions such as this: contributions from others prompt you to re-examine the bases for your arguments, and in the process you notice something you hadn't noticed earlier or you see old points with new eyes.

I'll explain what I mean:

I earlier identified four sound shifts that I believed define the Ale-Ane isogloss. It now seems to me that only the first two shifts (L-to-N, and R-to-L) out of the four actually characterise this isogloss. As far as these two shifts are concerned there are no pattern breakers that I know of.

It is with the other two sound shifts (which I now think do not necessarily define this isogloss) that we notice seeming 'pattern-breakers'. But are they really pattern-breakers, or something else? Following my realisation that the 'f' sound is proto-Igbo, I've had to drop my earlier postulation of a H-to-F sound shift as one of the markers of Ane speech. That leaves the last 'shift' that I proposed: the H-to-R.

Again, in addition to the fact that an ' r' for an 'h' does not occur for every Ane speech - in fact, does not occur for any of the border Ane groups [hence 'oha' rather than 'ora' in border Ane lects like Agbaja, Enuani, Nnewi and other geographically fringe Ane groups] - Williamson et al proposed that this 'h' is not even proto-Igbo, but was the result of a sound shift from 's' - - an 's' that appears to have been retained only in one Ane lect - Ukwuani.

This makes for a complicated picture. But it would seem that the sound shift that produced this 'r' is a more recent and geographically relatively limited shift that only affected Core Ane lects of 'Inner Anambra', leaving the Ane-speakers on the 'Outer Ring' using 'h' and (in the instance of Ukwuani) 's'.

If the suggestion in the last paragraph is correct, then there are really no pattern-breakers with respect to s/h/r. What probably happened was just a minor localised shift to 'r' from 'h' or 's'.


Other questions

1. You asked if Agbaja was under the Nri sphere of influence. Yes, it was.

2. Concerning the role Nri played in spreading the markers of Ane speech (L-to-N and R-to-L):

Yes, there is nothing to suggest that Nri couldn't have played a role in it. But, as I implied in the other thread, I suspect these sound shifts spread to the regions where they feature prior to the rise of the Nri hegemony.

Although we often confound the personalities Eri and Nri, and the Aguleri and Nri Cultures, there is an extent to which we can separate both cultures in space and time. Aguleri is the older culture, based on the agricultural exploitation of the fertile Anambra Valley. The Nri hegemony is the younger, an offshoot of the Aguleri Culture, and is based on the (to paraphrase Afigbo) manipulation of the spiritual forces underpinning an already existing agricultural society. In the time between the Anambra Valley-based culture (i.e., Aguleri) and its offshoot the Awka Uplands-based hegemony (i.e., Nri), the markers of Ane speech could have been spreading.

It is noteworthy that oral evidence, as well as some aspects of ethnography, suggest that the Nsukka and the Ika areas were more penetrated by the Nri than Ukwuani was. (As a matter of fact I do not know of any Ukwuani tradition that alludes to Nri.) Yet both Nsukka and Ika lects are Ale, and the less-penetrated Ukwuani is Ane. What this suggests is that the spread of the Ane linguistic markers were not necessarily tied with the rise and spread of Nri hegemony, though they (the markers) very likely originated in the Anambra Valley (i.e., the Aguleri Zone).

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Re: Finally! The Igbo Languages And Proto-Igbo Reconstructions by OdenigboAroli(m): 2:13pm On Jun 16, 2015
Ihuomadinihu:

You are being stupi-d! People are trying to solve what myths and legends couldn't solve for Igbos and you just had to rant because i mentioned Nri and Anambra in my post.

You are such an eidiot! If this thread mean so much to you why are you trying to use it to disrespect your superiors? You should have kept your subordinate status!
Re: Finally! The Igbo Languages And Proto-Igbo Reconstructions by Ihuomadinihu: 3:38pm On Jun 16, 2015
OdenigboAroli:


You are such an eidiot! If this thread mean so much to you why are you trying to use it to disrespect your superiors? You should have kept your subordinate status!
Which Superiors? You? Lol, i don't have the time for your fooli-shness. What exactly is your problem? Stop acting like an Nri spokesman,they don't even know you exist!
If you have nothing to contribute to this thread,pls get away and stop quoting me cos i mentioned Nri in my comment.
There is a place and time for everything,if you want to talk about your trashy supermacist 'hypothesis',then endeavour to open another thread.
Re: Finally! The Igbo Languages And Proto-Igbo Reconstructions by pazienza(m): 4:00pm On Jun 16, 2015
Ihuomadinihu. I must confess, I felt a bit insulted when I saw that post you referred to the F and N factors as infamous, it was derogatory and so unnecessary. I decided to let it slide to avoid derailing this wonderful topic.

You were the one who brought an ant infested wood into this thread, don't feign surprise now that a Lizard has come to pay you a visit.

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Re: Finally! The Igbo Languages And Proto-Igbo Reconstructions by Ihuomadinihu: 4:18pm On Jun 16, 2015
pazienza:
Ihuomadinihu. I must confess, I felt a bit insulted when I saw that post you referred to the F and N factors as infamous, it was derogatory and so unnecessary. I decided to let it slide to avoid derailing this wonderful topic.

You were the one who brought an ant infested wood into this thread, don't feign surprise now that a Lizard has come to pay you a visit.
Maybe,am being misunderstood or probably didn't use the right term. I am only trying to understand the reason for the apperance of /f/ as against /h/ and the reason for more /h/ lects across Igboland. Considering that /f/ and /n/ is more often than not an Anambra feature,i felt it was introduced by Nri igbos going by their claims of introducing everything to other igbos. Am glad,the other contributors explained that /f/ is a Proto igbo feature. My intent was not to spite anyone. I don't know why the rest of you should be sentimental and touchy here.

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Re: Finally! The Igbo Languages And Proto-Igbo Reconstructions by ChinenyeN(m): 4:36pm On Jun 16, 2015
I would expect that the unnecessary back-and-forth would reach a stopping point sooner or later (i.e. now).
Re: Finally! The Igbo Languages And Proto-Igbo Reconstructions by OdenigboAroli(m): 4:54pm On Jun 16, 2015
Ihuomadinihu:

Which Superiors? You? Lol, i don't have the time for your fooli-shness. What exactly is your problem? Stop acting like an Nri spokesman,they don't even know you exist!
If you have nothing to contribute to this thread,pls get away and stop quoting me cos i mentioned Nri in my comment.
There is a place and time for everything,if you want to talk about your trashy supermacist 'hypothesis',then endeavour to open another thread.

No,you didn't just mention Nri in your post,you tried to spite her in your abundant ignorance. Its been a long time coming and you are being watched. Your insecurity is innate and I can't help you....All fingers are not equal,so accept your status and be grateful to God. This will be my last response to you to avoid derail....Be grateful for who God made you and stop hating over what God made other people. You spend all your energy running around Nairaland trying to run Anambra and Nri down...shame!

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Re: Finally! The Igbo Languages And Proto-Igbo Reconstructions by OdenigboAroli(m): 4:55pm On Jun 16, 2015
And I expect you are not passing an order!
Re: Finally! The Igbo Languages And Proto-Igbo Reconstructions by Ihuomadinihu: 5:11pm On Jun 16, 2015
OdenigboAroli:


No,you didn't just mention Nri in your post,you tried to spite her in your abundant ignorance. Its been a long time coming and you are being watched. Your insecurity is innate and I can't help you....All fingers are not equal,so accept your status and be grateful to God. This will be my last response to you to avoid derail....Be grateful for who God made you and stop hating over what God made other people. You spend all your energy running around Nairaland trying to run Anambra and Ndi down...shame!
Lol,what drugs are you on. Where did i trash Nri or Anambra? The impression i formed about /f/ lects has already been addressed, so anyother thing you are writing or going to write is just mere trash.
Are you saying i shouldn't mention Nri cos am not from Anambra? Lol, i have trashed you and your Nri myths before and i will do so again but that is for another day.
Re: Finally! The Igbo Languages And Proto-Igbo Reconstructions by ChinenyeN(m): 5:38pm On Jun 16, 2015
On My Ika Ihi Speculation

After going through the manuscript again, it seems more likely that the dawn association occurred earlier during proto-Igbo history.

I had also not stopped to consider Ekpeye in all this. The Ekpeye lect retains a good amount of the proto-Igbo linguistic features when compared with all other modern Igbo lects, which speaks to the antiquity of the branch. So, it would not make much sense for the Ika lect (a more likely younger branch) to have retained the more original cult when an older branch presents evidence of an already established association with dawn.

Radoillo, I went to see what I could dig up on Ehi and Ika, and it seems you have a real point. The degree of inflexibility of the Ehi concept among Ika speaks to its likely adopted nature. It seems safe to say that the Ika example does not work, so I'll have to discard it.

I have learned something from this though. The discussion on Ika has shown the need to consider these reconstruction on case-by-case basis, rather than limiting things to a more linear basis (i.e. proto-to-modern Igbo). In other words, it isn't enough anymore to generalize on isolation with respect to linguistic innovation. This means we can no longer assume that an innovation in one instance would necessarily equal the same or similar innovation in other instances within a single lect or across multiple lects. Oh, complications.
Re: Finally! The Igbo Languages And Proto-Igbo Reconstructions by ChinenyeN(m): 5:58pm On Jun 16, 2015
OdenigboAroli:
And I expect you are not passing an order!

Don't play dumb with me. It is not an order. It is a statement to show that I expect the two of you to be reasonable enough to quell the urge to continue this behavior. If you want so much to deride each other, go elsewhere and do that. We have plenty of other threads for that. No one needs it here. It's that simple.

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Re: Finally! The Igbo Languages And Proto-Igbo Reconstructions by Nobody: 6:39pm On Jun 16, 2015
ChinenyeN:
Oh, complications.

Oh, yes! grin The complications are crazy. But we are doing a good job making sense and even historical deductions from them. We should be proud. cheesy
Re: Finally! The Igbo Languages And Proto-Igbo Reconstructions by Stillfire: 12:04pm On Jun 23, 2015
Radoillo:

Oh, yes! grin The complications are crazy. But we are doing a good job making sense and even historical deductions from them. We should be proud. cheesy

ChinenyeN:

Don't play dumb with me. It is not an order. It is a statement to show that I expect the two of you to be reasonable enough to quell the urge to continue this behavior. If you want so much to deride each other, go elsewhere and do that. We have plenty of other threads for that. No one needs it here. It's that simple.

I would like for you guys to participate in this conversation. Where's Odumchi? I believe your input would be sane and balanced.

https://www.nairaland.com/2068013/women-development-nigeria-since-pre-colonial/3#35061500
Re: Finally! The Igbo Languages And Proto-Igbo Reconstructions by Ihuomadinihu: 4:01pm On Jun 23, 2015
Stillfire:




I would like for you guys to participate in this conversation. Where's Odumchi? I believe your input would be sane and balanced.

https://www.nairaland.com/2068013/women-development-nigeria-since-pre-colonial/3#35061500
^ Is that not an old thread/topic....ijs.
Re: Finally! The Igbo Languages And Proto-Igbo Reconstructions by Stillfire: 4:28pm On Jun 23, 2015
Ihuomadinihu:

^ Is that not an old thread/topic....ijs.

Yeah it is, but I would like to restart it. It would be nice to hear from you guys on gender relations in Igbo tradition. wink I don't want to start a new thread.
Re: Finally! The Igbo Languages And Proto-Igbo Reconstructions by pazienza(m): 6:38pm On Jun 23, 2015
I just noticed a /d/ for /z/ replacement in the proto Igbo reconstruction. For example, Zu ( steal) was written as "dui" in proto Igbo and Eze( tooth) as "Idue".

Then it occurred to me that I had noticed this d for z replacement in modern Igbo dialects.

For example, in some Igbo dialects, ozo( another) is "odo", hence the name Ozoemena becomes odoemena. This is mostly found in Imo and Abia. In those parts, "to rain" which normally is "izo" is spoken as "ido". The sentence : ( It's raining) Mili na-ezo, becomes, mili na-edo.

In some Igbo dialects, especially Ikwerre the name "Chidi" is spoken as "Chizi".

It's amazing that Igbo speech forms one might think are exceptions today, were actually the norm years gone by.

2 Likes

Re: Finally! The Igbo Languages And Proto-Igbo Reconstructions by Ihuomadinihu: 7:02pm On Jun 23, 2015
pazienza:
I just noticed a /d/ for /z/ replacement in the proto Igbo reconstruction. For example, Zu ( steal) was written as "dui" in proto Igbo and Eze( tooth) as "Idue".

Then it occurred to me that I had noticed this d for z replacement in modern Igbo dialects.

For example, in some Igbo dialects, ozo( another) is "odo", hence the name Ozoemena becomes odoemena. This is mostly found in Imo and Abia. In those parts, "to rain" which normally is "izo" is spoken as "ido". The sentence : ( It's raining) Mili na-ezo, becomes, mili na-edo.

In some Igbo dialects, especially Ikwerre the name "Chidi" is spoken as "Chizi".

It's amazing that Igbo speech forms one might think are exceptions today, were actually the norm years gone by.
In some dialects of some parts of Abia, Chidi is produced as Chidu. If i say the hinter and peripheral parts of Ala Igbo probably preserved the earlier speech pattern of Igbo language,some people will quarrel with me.
Re: Finally! The Igbo Languages And Proto-Igbo Reconstructions by ChinenyeN(m): 2:15am On Jul 01, 2015
pazienza:
It's amazing that Igbo speech forms one might think are exceptions today, were actually the norm years gone by.

In terms of things to learn, this has to be one of the biggest takeaways. For a long time, Igbo-speaking people have discussed with [and some even derided] each other over this this topic, in an effort to establish one lect or another as the more 'pure' and 'original'. The more 'abnormal' lects - the ones which deviated from one modern 'standard' or another - would often be relegated to the background and perceived of as some corruption or the result of interaction with non-Igbo-speaking populations. Now, with these manuscripts by Williamson et al and Ohiri-Aniche we see that these 'abnormal' lects - these exceptions - contribute the most toward the reconstruction of proto-Igbo speech.

How I wish the reconstructions also focused on syntax, rather than just modified versions of the Swadesh 100 Wordlist. I would have loved to see the sort of conclusions that Williamson et al and Ohiri-Aniche would have given.
Re: Finally! The Igbo Languages And Proto-Igbo Reconstructions by odumchi: 12:16am On Oct 09, 2015
I know I'm late, but I think you guys should hear me out lol.

The other day I was reading a paper on a particular religious topic and the author mentioned how we Igbo are obsessed with things that bloom, particularly trees. This got me thinking about the etymology of the word osisi/oshishi (tree) and it suddenly clicked to me that there could be a connection between it and the 'cult of the source' which you guys discussed here. I took its meaning to be 'thing that blooms/grows/protrudes from an origin' and it made a whole lot of sense, since after all, trees are simply organic matter that sprout from the ground. Taking this new interpenetration into consideration I looked at the word osimiri/oshimiri/orimili and it too began to seem meaningful when decomposed into osi + miri (water that flows from a great source or origin). I don't know if someone has already hashed this idea out before me, but I'm just throwing my thoughts out there. What do you guys think?

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Re: Finally! The Igbo Languages And Proto-Igbo Reconstructions by ChinenyeN(m): 9:35pm On Oct 10, 2015
Eehn? So no one wants to even make a small effort? Unu sef.

Anyway, Odumchi, remember earlier in the topic how I remarked on the existence of two different \s\ sounds in modern Igbo? An old \s\ and a new \s\? Well, basically what makes these two \s\ sounds different is that they have different etymological ancestors. To better explain, one \s\ sound is etymologically descended from an older \s\-type sound, while the other \s\ is etymologically descended from an older \t\ sound. All of this is of course based on the reconstruction work.

The older \s\-type sound is what we've been able to determine as responsible for the original 'source cult' term (whatever it was). This older \s\-type sound then gave us the r/s/sh/h dynamic that we see across the surviving Igbo lects. 'Osisi' and 'oshishi' would appear to not be part of this dynamic. Instead, they are part of the s/sh/ts/tsh dynamic that is derived from the older \t\ sound. So, with that, we see that there seems to be no connection between the words for 'tree' and the 'source cult'.

Beyond that, I've been able to conclude that 'osisi' is likely to be etymologically connected to the root \si\ that translates as 'be stiff' (i.e. the \si\ in \-si ike\). The primary evidence for this determination is the fact that we traditionally distinguish between 'osisi' and 'nkwu'. In traditional speech, 'osisi' seems to refer to any type of tree that we would typically think of as straight-growing and stiff/unwavering (like iroko). 'Nkwu' does not seem to fit this traditional understanding, hence we never call it 'osisi', unless in instances where use 'osisi' as a general term for 'tree'.

So, altogether, 'osisi' and 'oshishi' are etymologically different from the whatever term was originally used for the 'source cult'.

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Re: Finally! The Igbo Languages And Proto-Igbo Reconstructions by odumchi: 7:42am On Oct 20, 2015
Your explanation makes sense and even introduces me to a fresh, new perspective on this matter. Thanks, ChinenyeN.

[size=5pt]Otuna I ji da gbiila anyi amamwhne l'uche l'uka magburu ogwe e.[/size]
Re: Finally! The Igbo Languages And Proto-Igbo Reconstructions by ChinenyeN(m): 1:30pm On Oct 21, 2015
Odumchi lei, i gamigbala ahu l'okwu Ngwa gh na. Heu.
Re: Finally! The Igbo Languages And Proto-Igbo Reconstructions by Nobody: 10:48am On Nov 09, 2015
Odumchi, you might be able to help me with this.

I'm trying to map the occurrence of f/v in place of h in the Arochukwu-to-Abiriba corridor. Are there breaks in this belt of territory where 'h' appears in place of this f/v? What of f and v? Are they interchangeable in this context, or do the communities involved favour one over the other?

If you can give me the variant of 'ohia' (bush) in the major dialects in this specific area, it would be most helpful
Re: Finally! The Igbo Languages And Proto-Igbo Reconstructions by cheruv: 9:52am On Nov 10, 2015
Umunnam,
Jisike unu ike nihi nam mutaga ihe di ukwu ebe a cool
Kam ga butuo akwukwo PDF a

1 Like

Re: Finally! The Igbo Languages And Proto-Igbo Reconstructions by cheruv: 10:08am On Nov 10, 2015
ChinenyeN:
Alright. Sorry to keep you all waiting. Here is the link, as promised. Feel free to view and download.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/fai471ny20v7vxg/AAD-lr9nAzR_QmG6gl3zFvnZa?dl=0

** I am not the owner of the linked manuscripts and am only sharing them for the sake of the dissemination of knowledge and freedom of information. Enjoy! wink **
The dlink isn't working oo
Re: Finally! The Igbo Languages And Proto-Igbo Reconstructions by odumchi: 10:45am On Nov 13, 2015
Dee, Radoillo. There aren't any communities in the strip of towns from Abiriba down to Arochukwu that employ the use of the 'h' sound in the manner that it's used amongst the southern Igbo. Most of the communities in this corridor employ the use of the 'f' sound instead, the exception being Arochukwu, which chooses to replace 'f' with 'v'.

However, that being said, this pattern isn't particularly black and white. In Aro speech, even though we say things like 'uvuvu' (foam), ivoro (shame), and 'viko' (to wringe clothes dry), we choose to say 'ihe' for thing, while all of our neighbors say 'ife'.

The 'f' and 'v' in our tongues isn't as absolute (for lack of a better word) as it in the Nri-Awka area. In a place like, say, Ogidi, you'd say 'ife afu' for 'that thing', while in Aro or Abiriba we'd say a nice and nasal 'ihe onhu/ori' and 'ife onhu/ori', respectively.

To further illustrate how inabsolute this 'f' and 'v' sibstitution is in Aro speech, take for example the Aro phrase for leaving a leftover quantity of something, 'irivo'. The fact that we choose to employ the 'v' sound where other dialects would traditionally use an 'f' would lead you to believe that our word for 'remaining' would be 'voro', while in actuality it's 'foro'.

So, no. They aren't interchangeable, as every other community prefers 'f', while even in Arochukwu, where the overwhelming majority of things are said with a 'v', exceptions occasionally arise here and there.

I'd also note that the 'h' sound becomes more prominent as you move closer to Umuahia and it's environs.

Here're local variants of 'bush':

Abiriba - ofia

Isu - ofia

Ututu - ofia

Ohafia - ofia

Ihechiowa - ofia

Abam - ofia

Arochukwu - ovia

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