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Pakistan J-17 Warpalne Discussion - Foreign Affairs - Nairaland

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Pakistan J-17 Warpalne Discussion by Litmus: 9:15pm On Jun 17, 2015
Awais
May 26, 2013 - 9:09PM
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Its a good start folks. Keep learning through this experience of JF-17 and you will eventually get better at it. Haters gonna hate but whatever the quality of this aircraft is, it is bound to improve because that is how you learn!

A step in the right direction indeed.


Nadir
May 26, 2013 - 9:11PM
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Yep, so they said four years ago.



Shaami
May 26, 2013 - 9:21PM
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There is a huge difference in locally developed and locally manufactured aircraft and in my view JF/17 is just a locally assembled fighter jet and nothing else. JF-17s engine has a Russian rejected RD-93 engine manufactured in China under license which cannot even reach speed of above 1.6 Mach and that too with huge trails of smoke to be detected everywhere with infrared signature device. Similarly all avionics are mostly European, Radar is age old Chinese KLJ-7, Missiles like sidewinder aim9L is American and even the Martin baker ejection seat is American. I think Pakistanis done a wonderful paint job to own that aircraft otherwise our country cannot take the credit of JF-17 other than assembling the parts produced in the outside world.
Could anybody tell me the name of a single Part in JF-17 that is developed in Pakistan

If Pakistan Airforce cannot do anything then atleast fit JF-17 with modern PESA ( Passive Electronic Scanned Array ) Radar, or AESA phased array systems as long gone are the days of mechanical steered radars like KLJ-7 in modern jets and PAF must learn the modern trades of Electronic steering in this regard.



Awan
May 26, 2013 - 9:40PM

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PMLN after coming into power must give orders to PAF to start a 5th Generation fighter program as JF-17 is only fourth generation and we really need 5th generation program right now. Along with it we need Transport aircraft program that could develop transport planes that could replace the need of PAF on C-130 Hercules and C-17, C-13 etc. One fighter program atleast needs 5-7 years and if Pakistan will start this program right now then atleast around 2020 we could have our own 5th generation aircraft.


indian
May 26, 2013 - 10:17PM
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As an indian i feel proud when i see pakistan developing an aircraft on its owm ofcourse with chinese help a little bit. Hats off to Pak engineers. In India we dont have such expertise so we’ll keep buying military hardware fron US, Russia, UK, France, Israel among others.


Muslim Leaguer
May 26, 2013 - 10:40PM
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@ Awan

You must be aware of the fact that JF-7 project was initiated during Nawaz Sharif’s government. So it is wise to foresee that this project will get a new boost after Nawaz Sharif becomes Prime Minister… InshaAllah



TMM
May 26, 2013 - 11:09PM
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@Awan:
For God’s sake stop this nonsense of wasting your already meager resources on building war planes, rather divert all available resources on building nation by strengthening basic infrastructure like power generation, restoring law and order and creating job opportunities. You don’t need JF 17 or F 16 on your dinning table. By the way what usefulness F 16 has brought to this nation which is far superior war machine compared to JF 17 except increased maintenance cost till it becomes obsolete and gone.
And please understand, no other country included India would be a threat to us, they have more important and better things to do on their agenda.


abdussamad
May 26, 2013 - 11:39PM
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I bet no one expressed interest in this plane at all. It is all propaganda.



Haroon Malik
May 27, 2013 - 12:02AM
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They had to train for a week for flying at high altitudes in escort formation? I don’t know but it seems pretty lame.


AR
May 27, 2013 - 12:24AM
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@abdussamad:
Your frustration is a proof that the news is right and many parties are interested to know about JF-17.



k. Salim Jahangir
May 27, 2013 - 12:52AM
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@Shaami…..Seems you know too much about JF 17,its weaknesses & have also suggested its improvement plan. Why can’t you start making improved version of JF17 & market it.Aside from Pakistan even the US might consider buying your aircraft.


Dipak
May 27, 2013 - 2:34AM
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India is looking for good fighter jets. May be Rehman Malik can sell a thousand or two of JF17 to India.


vijay
May 27, 2013 - 2:51AM
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@indian: You are a Pakistani.



Pasha
May 27, 2013 - 3:10AM
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Can Pakistan worry and do something about the law and order, economic condition and strengthening it’s democratic institutions not be bothered by the might of military and it’s propaganda machinery. Any news about the military power and it’s toys and inventions will sure come at the cost of our liberties. We have been held hostage to this institution since 1947.



M
May 27, 2013 - 3:15AM
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@Indian
Why do you feel compelled to masquerade as an Indian? Assuming for one second that Pakistan did play any significant role in building JF-17, there are zero reasons for an Indian to feel proud about it. Pride swells in one when his own country achieves something, not when a failed neighboring state makes dubious claims about building something that they clearly have no local research & technological base to support it.



CounterTerrorist
May 27, 2013 - 3:31AM
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@Indian,
Ever heard about FGFA?



Deepak indian
May 27, 2013 - 4:59AM
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Awan .Pakistan has build so called fighter planes that good, well you can not build train engine in last 63 years of independence so shame .?? .



Water Bottle
May 27, 2013 - 5:02AM
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@Shaami

How do you know so much? Are you an airforce employee?


SAL
May 27, 2013 - 5:03AM
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@Shaami:
I can smell something burning. My regrets that you are not current on this Aircrafts Stats. BTW Martin & Baker seats are made in UK and not USA.


Ek Tha Kashmiri
May 27, 2013 - 5:05AM
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What about 5th generation electricity?feeling hot?


Rezario
May 27, 2013 - 5:10AM
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Just don know why these 1950s planes can be envy of others. How can such a backward country like China produce any advanced aircraft.



Shaami
May 27, 2013 - 6:17AM
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@Water Bottle: No I am just an Ordinary Civilian. Just join any Hobby flying enthusiast group in Pakistan and you will find many with tons of knowledge about this. Anyway If i would be an Army or Airforce officer then i might be failing in telling even the basics of any technology but will be excelling in telling the beer brands, hollywood flicks and rates of Plots in DHA and other housing schemes instead,



Polpot
May 27, 2013 - 7:20AM
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Yet another indigenous product: after indigenous satellites, tanks, nuclear plants and Missiles
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Keep it up.


Zulfiqar
May 27, 2013 - 7:42AM
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@ ET: Please update the image, which shows an old prototype of the JF-17.



Zulfiqar
May 27, 2013 - 7:44AM
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@Haroon Malik:
Your also know zilch about flying.



abdussamad
May 27, 2013 - 8:36AM
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@AR:
Why would I be frustrated? And what have my feelings got to do with orders for JF-17 by foreign militaries? If I could really influence the conduct of foreign armies just by feeling a little different I would be the most powerful man in the world.



Sadik Ibrahim
May 27, 2013 - 10:46AM
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Its good to have it, but can we divert that money to eradicate the simplest disease that is diverstating children – Polio


Asif Butt
May 27, 2013 - 11:22AM
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@indian:
Thanks.


SK5
May 27, 2013 - 11:59AM
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You have to remember that our scientists and engineers are paid very low wages and have very scares budgets but yet they defy the odds. If we had the same resources and capital most western countries have then we would be ahead of all of them. Congrats on the JF-17, now step aside and let our power systems engineers take charge!.


BetelQ8
May 27, 2013 - 12:34PM
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@Deepak indian:
And you can not produce even Onion and Potato to your requirement, and have to import from across the border. This is the real shame, if you can feel it.



baba Zulfi
May 27, 2013 - 2:19PM
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@Zulfiqar:
Zulfi you are also Zilch in Flying


Riaz Ahmad
May 27, 2013 - 3:49PM
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@Awan:
There is no money, the PPP mafia mob have looted and bankrupted Pakistan.



viv
May 27, 2013 - 4:04PM
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Interested in a third generation fighter? While whole world is going for 5th gen or atleast 4th gen fighters,which are these countries?Also China has not inducted single FC-17 in its own airforce or navy.


A[b]nees
May 27, 2013 - 5:52PM
Reply[/b]

Can these plans help us in reducing loadshedding?no more waste of möny PLEASE.


Enlightened
May 27, 2013 - 6:39PM
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China is grounding its entire JF-17 fleet including its higher versions because of its obsolete technology and reverting to SU-35 along with technology transfer from Russia. JF-17 Thunder beats all others in its price tag ie 20 million US dollars as compared to India’s SU-30′s 40 millions which is now being upgraded to SU-35 at HAL factory in India. However, SU-30 is far superior than JF-17 having twin engines, with speed mach 2.35 against 1.8, rate of climb 355m/s against 175, range up to 8000 km against 3000km of JF-17′s. SU-30 has most maneuverability and excellent air to air performance matching with US F-18. No modern aircraft is made of all metal frame and devoid of carbon fiber composite but JF-17 is made of all metal frame which is the main reason for its low price tag and has much less life span. Notwithstanding its performance, if Pakistan is able to sell these aircrafts to other countries would earn them much needed foreign exchange which will be good for its faltering economy.


FYI
May 27, 2013 - 7:14PM
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@indian:
” The JF-17 Thunder or the FC-1 Fierce Dragon as it’s known in China is a third-generation multipurpose combat jet co-developed by Aviation Industry Corp of China and the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC). ”
The World is now on a track for Fifth Generation Aircrafts in various joint ventures. Why are you still stuck on Third Generation ? Kudos to the chinese smiley It is a face saver.
I would be much happy if Pakistan would have manufactured a Rail Engine / Dam or a Powerhouse.
FYI ” The Sukhoi + Hindustan Aeronautics Limited, Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) is a fifth-generation fighter being developed by India and Russia.”


SAL
May 27, 2013 - 9:24PM
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@BetelQ8:
We export them @ high price and import them @ cheap. Got the point Mr. Economist?



Green Tiger
May 27, 2013 - 10:33PM
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Who said JF-17 is the 4th Generation.. At max is 2.5 generation. Its got a manual Radar which is the technology of 1980s and not AESA.

Even the Chinese are not using it. They are just building this junk for us. Our main fighter is the F-16, which is tried, tested, potent and proven. They are the ones which should stand ground against the SU-30.



B
May 28, 2013 - 1:24AM
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Some very valid points above re utilization of resources towards national problems of which electricity shortage and healthcare improvment are the front runners. But please we have to take into consideration the massive spend on defence budget (c. 75% annually) is finally showing some evidene of being consumed towards good use. Yes the tehnology may not be the latest however it has resulted in something tangeable coming out of our most well fed industry
@ Shami…I admire your through knowledge and understand your point on the lack of Pakistani manufactured parts in use. However mate have you come across the phase “why re-invent the wheel?”. Chinese themselves have mastered this art where they tend to source parts from across the globe and design engineer it effectively into their products. And in the west we can see that it is changing the image of Chinese brands that were in the past not trusted for reliability. Also if you lift the hood of any Audi or Mercedes-Benz (both hallmarks of German engineering) you will notice that very few of the parts would have been manufactured locally. In fact automotive factories in Western Europe are perfect examples of effiient assembly lines of parts from across the globe (saying that from first hand experience).
The point I am trying to make is we need to back initiatives that will get revenue generated for our country. Yes there will be shortcomings along the way but it is all part of the continuous improvment process.
In addition to the above why do we draw comparison with India every time? We need to assess ourselves by understanding where we are today in the defence sector as oppose to a decade ago and what steps are required to achieve the longterm vision?



Zain
May 28, 2013 - 2:28AM
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No interest in JF-17 at all.
All we need is 24 hours of uninterrupted electricity for God’s sake.



PakInd
May 28, 2013 - 1:02PM
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This is for both Pakistanis and Indians, all we see is today’s China which is challenging U.S.A in almost all of the aspects but what we forgot is for many decades China was sitting very quietly ,working its way to the top. As School going kid 30 yrs back I still remember using very good quality Chinese fountain pens and from little fountain pens they have progressed to heavy engineering. I don’t know what kind of genes we posses, we make much more noise and do very little like empty vessel make much noise . India is on path which china took 30 yrs back but Pakistan still has long way to go . Till then keep on making making noise Pakistanis and Indians …btw start some kind of students and teachers exchange programmes with each other at least.


Atif
May 28, 2013 - 3:58PM
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Dear All,

I am Pakistani, I am Indian, i only want peace. has any of the above educated elite cared for it ?


Raj
May 28, 2013 - 7:52PM
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@Enlightened:
That other countries shown interest need not mean they are interested in buying these JF17 planes. Perhaps it migh be useful for as training jets or even to display in a museum TC. Or impress foreign dignitaries provided they can be bough at cut throt prices. China may even n’interet free’ loans to buyer for the purpose of keepin production going or to show off. Ther is lots goes on behind the actual show. Buyers have to worry if parts at available etc. so I is not easy and buy something xpenive!



Enlightened
May 28, 2013 - 10:07PM
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@Raj:
You have made a valid observation however we should wish our neighbor good luck to find prospective buyers from small countries which cannot be ruled out as China has decided to stop further production of these aircrafts.



best plane
Jun 5, 2013 - 7:05PM
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I am following all article from 2009. I can say that countries are Bangladesh, Azerbaijan, Zimbabwe, Egypt and some middle east countries are intrested. Main reason is its low cost Maintenance. Jf-17 Bock-2 has aesa radar and stealthy. So many countries will try to see that part. Even China will consider.



Umar
Jun 8, 2013 - 2:49PM
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The most important point to consider, is that the war does not depend on military strength and weapons. But, it only depends on the faith in God and loyalness with homeland. We have a lot examples. In 1965, how we shoted down 117 migs of Indian Air Force with our low class Sabres. Similliarly, JF 17 WILL ALSO RULE OVER SKY.


Rao
Jun 8, 2013 - 10:37PM
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@Dipak:
Why not? For a god commission, there will b lots of arms dealers but rarel who can talk to Indian Baboos on Urdu. It can be a convincing language.


Jun 8, 2013 - 10:45PM
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@Atif: My friend! Just enjoy the Tamasha in writing anything you want under the assumed names. Even if we’re to say JF 17 can fly at Mach 4 speed, nobody can verify these tall claims. So why not enjoy all this funny write ups……….!!!


sami
Jun 11, 2013 - 8:52PM
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how can you meet the orders for JF-17when there is 20 hrs. powercut in a day??



Rao
Jun 11, 2013 - 10:19PM
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@sami:
There may not be electricity for the civilians, true. But you can be sure, officers’ houses are air conditioned and remain pleasantly COOL my friend. So also air bases all the time you know! They say Pakistani people are very resilient and can take up any hardship for their families, Zameen and Khuda. So stop complaining.
Re: Pakistan J-17 Warpalne Discussion by rawtouch: 9:23pm On Jun 17, 2015
This is all the reviews and comments of other people so what am I supposed to add,

Meanwhile no pinshure
Re: Pakistan J-17 Warpalne Discussion by Litmus: 9:30pm On Jun 17, 2015
The Context:

[size=14pt]Mystery Shopper buys the JF-17[/size]

Someone has bought the JF-17. Quite who or how many planes they’re getting, no one is too sure about, though according to The Diplomat, the smart money is on Myanmar (Burma) which does operate a range of Chinese and Chinese/Pakistani aircraft.



So far though official comments have only said it is a South Asian country, leaving the outside chance it could be Bangladesh. Quite why the buyer’s name isn’t being shouted from the rooftops by Air Commodore Khalid Mahmood, head of sales for the joint marketing team established by Chengdu and the Pakistani Aeronautical Complex, isn’t clear. If Myanmar were the buyer then it is possible that a sale is felt to be too politically sensitive to announce it openly. The country has been subject to insurgencies and what is effectively a civil war for some years now. Earlier this year several Chinese farmers were milled when mistakenly bombed by Myanmar Air Force K-8 Karakorums. Beyond that, last week militants based in Western Myanmar attacked Indian troops, with India later launching a retaliatory strike

[img]http://i0.wp.com/fighterjetnews.files.wordpress.com/2015/06/chengdu_f-7_pakistani_air_force-1.jpg?w=576?w=102[/img]

At some point though the buyer’s identity must surely be made public given that several other nations including Argentina, Bangladesh and Nigeria are known to have expressed interest in the type. That said it could well be the case that where Beijing and Islamabad feel a sale might be too politically sensitive, they choose not to reveal who the buyer is. Sudan, whose president, Omar Al Bashir, narrowly escaped arrest in South Africa on charges of war crimes, is amongst the interested countries. Even a sale to Argentina might be considered far enough beyond the pale not to announce openly, given the links between Britain and Pakistan.



The curious reticence of Air Commodore Mahmood and his colleagues to name the buyer, should not however, detract from the JF-17’s success in finding a buyer. The fighter and the simplified concept that underpins its design has long been searching for a customer willing to sign a deal. The improved block 2 variant just beginning to enter service with the Pakistani Air Force, should improve sales, with the newer type, which allows for air to air refuelling, a far better product than the block one.

Re: Pakistan J-17 Warpalne Discussion by Litmus: 9:50pm On Jun 17, 2015
I just hope we don't buy this crud -even if they throw in the entire production facility down at Ilamabad embarassed Thing looks like a Chengdu F-7 with sharp noes.
Re: Pakistan J-17 Warpalne Discussion by Appleyard(m): 12:02am On Jun 18, 2015
Litmus:
I just hope we don't buy this crud -even if they throw in the entire production facility down at Ilamabad embarassed Thing looks like a Chengdu F-7 with sharp noes.


The whole thread almost make me laf my head off..cheesycheesy

But my eyes won't stop tears if my belove Nigeria buy this 'canoe' of a millipede plane..

God help us! shocked
Re: Pakistan J-17 Warpalne Discussion by Nobody: 12:36am On Jun 18, 2015
Appleyard:



The whole thread almost make me laf my head off..cheesycheesy

But my eyes won't stop tears if my belove Nigeria buy this 'canoe' of a millipede plane..

God help us! shocked

By reading people's comments? Have you studied the specifications of the JF-17 thunder or the block 2 Nigeria is intending to purchase?
Re: Pakistan J-17 Warpalne Discussion by Nobody: 12:40am On Jun 18, 2015
Litmus:
I just hope we don't buy this crud -even if they throw in the entire production facility down at Ilamabad embarassed Thing looks like a Chengdu F-7 with sharp noes.

The JF-17 is a chinese plane. It's parts, components, fuselage and engine come primarily from China and Russia.

Why shouldn't Nigeria buy this jet?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P61OyqzWjAo&sns=em
Re: Pakistan J-17 Warpalne Discussion by Centrifude(m): 2:49am On Jun 18, 2015
I rarely agree or support many of Henry120s comments but I have to say that this time I completely agree with him, you can't judge the Jf-17 but just reading speculations made by people.

The Jf-17 is a really good jet, and even though you may not want it for Nigeria, but the fact is if it is chose it will meet all of the current NAF needs, and it was a capability that is sorely needed by NAF right now which is delivering PGM day and night and providing extremely accurate close air support for troops on the ground.

Right now Nigeria needs something like the jf-17 they'll worry about Su-30s or something similar at a later time.

Pic: JF-17 Block 3 version, It looks awesome as hell.

Re: Pakistan J-17 Warpalne Discussion by Nobody: 8:03am On Jun 18, 2015
people sef ,the jf 17 thunder is a good buy for nigeria and i like the fact that it is an open system which can incorporate western and eastern avionics as well as weapons.
Re: Pakistan J-17 Warpalne Discussion by Nobody: 8:05am On Jun 18, 2015
Litmus:
I just hope we don't buy this crud -even if they throw in the entire production facility down at Ilamabad embarassed Thing looks like a Chengdu F-7 with sharp noes.
how dem carry resemble F-7 uses delta wings na
Re: Pakistan J-17 Warpalne Discussion by Nobody: 10:25am On Jun 18, 2015
Centrifude:
I rarely agree or support many of Henry120s comments but I have to say that this time I completely agree with him, you can't judge the Jf-17 but just reading speculations made by people.

The Jf-17 is a really good jet, and even though you may not want it for Nigeria, but the fact is if it is chose it will meet all of the current NAF needs, and it was a capability that is sorely needed by NAF right now which is delivering PGM day and night and providing extremely accurate close air support for troops on the ground.

Right now Nigeria needs something like the jf-17 they'll worry about Su-30s or something similar at a later time.

Pic: JF-17 Block 3 version, It looks awesome as hell.

Why is that, is it because South-Africa is always at the receiving end of my comments? cheesy cheesy

I agree with you, the JF-17 is a pretty impressive fighter for it's conservative price, it meets and exceeds all expectations of the Nigerian Airforce. If the JF-17 were western it would cost as much as the Gripen.


All though the SU-30 is class, I do not believe Nigeria needs the SU-30. It is a heavy high maintenance fighter, that very well meets our requirement but I don't believe we can afford it now. Probably in the future, but not now.


The block 3 looks fantastic. Here is another conceptual JF-17, let's call it the Super- JF-17. This upgrade could be a true rival to the Gripen NG.


The JF-17 provides the "bang-for-the-buck"!

Re: Pakistan J-17 Warpalne Discussion by Nobody: 10:34am On Jun 18, 2015
Nigerdeltaboi:
people sef ,the jf 17 thunder is a good buy for nigeria and i like the fact that it is an open system which can incorporate western and eastern avionics as well as weapons.

The JF-17 BlockII would be a great buy for the NAF, if and when we eventually sign the contract. Although i prefer the J-10B, the JF-17 still represents a capable multi-role fighter.
Re: Pakistan J-17 Warpalne Discussion by Appleyard(m): 11:56pm On Jun 19, 2015
Henry120:


By reading people's comments? Have you studied the specifications of the JF-17 thunder or the block 2 Nigeria is intending to purchase?


And what about its specification?:/ Does having new avionics, new weapon loadages, AESA/PESA radar capabilities, etc, etc, etc, makes it the fighter of choice? :/
The desirability of any fighter is not just its radar and electronic capabability, but mostly its strenght measured in speed and manovaurability.

We know that the JF-17 Block 2— aircraft have air-to-air refuelling capability, improved avionics, enhanced load carrying capacity, data link, and electronic warfare capabilities: but that is not all it entails to be a formidable and a deterrence-serving Fighter.

For instance, its engine and speed level are things to worry about,
Engine supply is an issue. Most RD 93 of china are for drones. This is a proven system. Even Russian's T50 with 50 kn thrust can do 1.8 mach.
With 10,000 hours/13,500 sorties, equates to 45 minutes per sortie,
“Notwithstanding the aerial refueling capability [which has many operational and logistics limitations], the short sortie time may always be a no-no for prospective buyers,”

The truth is, at such low speed of 1.8 mach, the plane is no match for enemies targets like Su34 and 27; and is a 'sitting duck' for enemy's anti-aircraft missiles.

This is certainly not the type of fighter Nigeria should go for. I can even shoot it with my catapult.cheesy

Also, Conformal fuel tanks are absolutely essential to a multi-role JF-17, but these are not easy to install, since the aerodynamics of the aircraft is greatly altered and it would call for flight testing in all regimes, including certification of all store anew.



Well, like somebody said, For now, we know the JF-17 block II is a non-disputable asset for NAF now, when you take into consideration the delapitated state of the army/AF; couple with the fact that it is very low in cost, and provide an option for technological transfer.

So, on these grounds, one can argue in favour of it. But on the long run we can't do without the services of the su 27/30 or su34. To me, it’s highly preferable we go with Su-27/30 cox of it well proven “fighting” prowess. It has been in service for quite a long time now, so its deployment and mission is no more a problem. It is battle tested and battle proven. I will suggest we go for that. For su34, i consider that highly an answer to any F-16/15 threat. Am really enthralled with the “cobra” stunts both su27/30 and su34 can perform, something no jet can perform. For now we can get su27/30 jet, but if we want to be serious about “future” threats, i prefer we place an order for Su34 jets— it is more advance. It is designed to deliver high-precision strikes on heavily defended targets in any weather conditions, day or night, and fields weaponry that includes a 30mm GSh-301 cannon, up to 12 Alamo or Archer AAMs, ASMs, and bombs. The fact that The two members of the crew sit down side by side in a large cabin, with the pilot-commander to the left and navigator/operator of weapons to the right in a jettisonable Zvezda K-36dm seat [that has an inlaid system of massage] also make it something we cant ignore. The advantage of the side by side cockpit is to eliminate the duplication of instruments and controls of flight, which improves efficiency and comfort. As long missions require comfort, it has pressurization that it allows to operate up to 10,000 meters without oxygen masks, which are available for emergencies and combat situations. The members of the crew can leave the seats and be in vertical position and relax. The space between the seats allows that they can lie down in the corridor, if necessary,—-imagine this.

cheesycheesycheesy

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Re: Pakistan J-17 Warpalne Discussion by M14A1: 8:39pm On Jun 26, 2015
^^^ Too much movies grin
Re: Pakistan J-17 Warpalne Discussion by Nobody: 9:49pm On Jun 26, 2015
M14A1:
^^^
Too much movies grin


Buhahahhaha...... grin grin grin

1 Like

Re: Pakistan J-17 Warpalne Discussion by Litmus: 2:34pm On Jul 01, 2015
Article of interest ...perhaps


Jaguar XX734 restoration project








Re: Pakistan J-17 Warpalne Discussion by Centrifude(m): 7:35pm On Aug 27, 2015
Henry120:


Why is that, is it because South-Africa is always at the receiving end of my comments? cheesy cheesy

I agree with you, the JF-17 is a pretty impressive fighter for it's conservative price, it meets and exceeds all expectations of the Nigerian Airforce. If the JF-17 were western it would cost as much as the Gripen.


All though the SU-30 is class, I do not believe Nigeria needs the SU-30. It is a heavy high maintenance fighter, that very well meets our requirement but I don't believe we can afford it now. Probably in the future, but not now.


The block 3 looks fantastic. Here is another conceptual JF-17, let's call it the Super- JF-17. This upgrade could be a true rival to the Gripen NG.


The JF-17 provides the "bang-for-the-buck"!

I wouldn't worry too much about comparing the JF-17 with the Gripen NG because the Countries that are most likely to buy the JF-17 don't have enemies that use the Gripen. I'm more concerned about how the Jf-17 would perform against something a Su-30mk, Rafale, Mirage 2000, Mig29, F-22, F-35 etc...

With a GDP as large as yours I don't think money is the problem is Nigeria. It's how it's managed and distributed (like most African Countries).

The problem I have is that Buying the Jf-17 will be a temporal solution that will end up being a permanent solution once the war is over. I think its just better to go all out right now and just buy what Nigeria needs and wants, Which is the Su-30 for the Migs.

1 Like

Re: Pakistan J-17 Warpalne Discussion by FighterPilot(m): 9:43pm On Aug 27, 2015
Henry120:


Why is that, is it because South-Africa is always at the receiving end of my comments? cheesy cheesy

I agree with you, the JF-17 is a pretty impressive fighter for it's conservative price, it meets and exceeds all expectations of the Nigerian Airforce. If the JF-17 were western it would cost as much as the Gripen.


All though the SU-30 is class, I do not believe Nigeria needs the SU-30. It is a heavy high maintenance fighter, that very well meets our requirement but I don't believe we can afford it now. Probably in the future, but not now.


The block 3 looks fantastic. Here is another conceptual JF-17, let's call it the Super- JF-17. This upgrade could be a true rival to the Gripen NG.


The JF-17 provides the "bang-for-the-buck"!

I was recently adviced by some experts in aeronautical enginering that fighters with small or short wings at their tail is a bad fighter in terms of manuevrability and agility. I was told they are as well bad at controlling the air, that's why such fighters are slowly fading away. JF 17 is unfortunately one of such fighters even with their latest versions. Very bad indeed.

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Re: Pakistan J-17 Warpalne Discussion by Nobody: 12:13pm On Aug 28, 2015
Centrifude:


I wouldn't worry too much about comparing the JF-17 with the Gripen NG because the Countries that are most likely to buy the JF-17 don't have enemies that use the Gripen. I'm more concerned about how the Jf-17 would perform against something a Su-30mk, Rafale, Mirage 2000, Mig29, F-22, F-35 etc...

With a GDP as large as yours I don't think money is the problem is Nigeria. It's how it's managed and distributed (like most African Countries).

The problem I have is that Buying the Jf-17 will be a temporal solution that will end up being a permanent solution once the war is over. I think its just better to go all out right now and just buy what Nigeria needs and wants, Which is the Su-30 for the Migs.

Nigeria's most likely foes in the air would be French Rafale Fighters, French Mirage 2000D and Chadian MIG-29s.

Nigeria has no JF-17s, we fly F-7s. So hypothetically if Nigeria were to get the JF-17s, we would still have the most potent aircraft in the west and central Africa region.

Chadian MIG-29s, 3 in number won't be much of a problem as, we would have both the numerical and technological advantage over them. Chad flies legacy MI-29s, not the MIG-29SMT and not the MIG-29K.

So the JF-17 would effectively fill Nigeria's requirement for a proper deterrent if the enemy is African.


- Against French Rafales and Mirage 2000D based in N'jamena, Chad, the JF-17 stands no chance against the Rafale, however it would be a significant deterrent against the Mirage 2000D.




"Buying the JF-17 thunder would be a stop-gap, which would eventually become permanent, true"!

"It is also better that Nigeria goes all in for a capable fighter like the SU-30 or J-10B, also true"!


Thing is, reality is a fickle b*tch, given Nigeria's past antecedent, Nigerian Air Force generals are 79% more likely to go for the JF-17 than the SU-30 or J-10B.

This is the unfortunate position we find our selves.
Re: Pakistan J-17 Warpalne Discussion by Nobody: 12:22pm On Aug 28, 2015
FighterPilot:


I was recently adviced by some experts in aeronautical enginering that fighters with small or short wings at their tail is a bad fighter in terms of manuevrability and agility. I was told they are as well bad at controlling the air, that's why such fighters are slowly fading away. JF 17 is unfortunately one of such fighters even with their latest versions. Very bad indeed.

Fighterpilot, I beg to differ.


The JF-17 at different angles looks like what an F/A-18 hornet would look like if it were a single engine fighter. Designers of the JF-17 leverage upon already tested structural designs, and did not look to "re-invent the wheel". The stuck to what was proven, and integrated additional features such as D.S.I which improved overall aircraft performance.

The JF-17 is a very very agile and maneuverable fighter.
Re: Pakistan J-17 Warpalne Discussion by FighterPilot(m): 10:27pm On Aug 29, 2015
Henry120:


Fighterpilot, I beg to differ.


The JF-17 at different angles looks like what an F/A-18 hornet would look like if it were a single engine fighter. Designers of the JF-17 leverage upon already tested structural designs, and did not look to "re-invent the wheel". The stuck to what was proven, and integrated additional features such as D.S.I which improved overall aircraft performance.

The JF-17 is a very very agile and maneuverable fighter.

F/A 18 hornet has its short wings projected more to the top of its body to cancel the g effects of its twin engines, thus having a different structural design to that of JF-17

Well, I must agree with the fact that you are a JF-17 enthusiast. However, like I have already put it to you that it does not have anything to do with your so called already tested structural design, it has to do more with new innovation and evolution. The structural design of JF17 is very old and follows those of many fighters of the past which have their short wings at their tail. I agree that JF17 is manuvrable but not agile as compared to gripen and rafale which follows the new modern structure.

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Re: Pakistan J-17 Warpalne Discussion by Nobody: 11:09pm On Aug 29, 2015
FighterPilot:


F/A 18 hornet has its short wings projected more to the top of its body to cancel the g effects of its twin engines, thus having a different structural design to that of JF-17

Well, I must agree with the fact that you are a JF-17 enthusiast. However, like I have already put it to you that it does not have anything to do with your so called already tested structural design, it has to do more with new innovation and evolution. The structural design of JF17 is very old and follows those of many fighters of the past which have their short wings at their tail. I agree that JF17 is manuvrable but not agile as compared to gripen and rafale which follows the new modern structure.

-The JF-17 is the plane on the left, while the F/A-18 is the plane on the right.


- The F/A-18 is the plane in the second photo, while the JF-17 is the plane in the 3rd photo.



As we can all see, the similarities are glaring. The JF-17 as far as Air Frame goes is a perfect match with the F/A-18 hornet.

Re: Pakistan J-17 Warpalne Discussion by Nobody: 11:34pm On Aug 29, 2015
FighterPilot:


F/A 18 hornet has its short wings projected more to the top of its body to cancel the g effects of its twin engines, thus having a different structural design to that of JF-17

Well, I must agree with the fact that you are a JF-17 enthusiast. However, like I have already put it to you that it does not have anything to do with your so called already tested structural design, it has to do more with new innovation and evolution. The structural design of JF17 is very old and follows those of many fighters of the past which have their short wings at their tail. I agree that JF17 is manuvrable but not agile as compared to gripen and rafale which follows the new modern structure.

Structurally, the F/A-18 and JF-17 are the same. My photos prove this fact.


Not necessarily, the JF-17 is very decent fighter jet which provides the "bang for the buck", however my favorite Fighter is the French Rafale.

Logically, Nigeria cannot get a western Jet, we tried it with the Jaguars........ It wasn't a particularly happy ending, hence my pivot and that of many Nigerian military enthusiasts to the east. In the east, the J-10B is my number 1 choice.

New Innovation, the JF-17 features a D.S.I, while the Gripen uses frontal canards. Both planes have evolved. It is untrue that the JF-17 relies only on already defined structural designs.


The JF-17 is a very agile plane, based on available technical details and available videos, I can comfortably say it is more agile than the Gripen.
Re: Pakistan J-17 Warpalne Discussion by FighterPilot(m): 1:16am On Aug 30, 2015
Now have a look at these new modern structural design.

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Re: Pakistan J-17 Warpalne Discussion by Nobody: 9:36am On Aug 30, 2015
FighterPilot:
Now have a look at these new modern structural design.

Are they more modern than the JF-17 and F/A-18 hornet?....... Yes!


Is there any evidence both technical or otherwise that proves they are more agile than the JF-17 and F/A-18? ............... up till now, NO!
Re: Pakistan J-17 Warpalne Discussion by FighterPilot(m): 10:36am On Aug 30, 2015
Henry120:


Are they more modern than the JF-17 and F/A-18 hornet?....... Yes!


Is there any evidence both technical or otherwise that proves they are more agile than the JF-17 and F/A-18? ............... up till now, NO!


The speed tells it all, JF17 makes Mach 1.6 and F/A 18 makes Mach 1.8. Very slow for interceptors of course.

With respect to agility there are no concrete specifications apart from the fact that aeronautical engineers believe that when short wings are put more to the front the fighter has a better control of the air and thus makes it more versatile against missile attacks. Like I said it has to do more with the innovation and evolution. Moreover, with short wings to the front, it makes the fighter to be more compact and still with more wider wingspan much bigger than those of Russian fighters which enable the fighter the advantage in terms of manoeuvrability.

2 Likes

Re: Pakistan J-17 Warpalne Discussion by FighterPilot(m): 1:02pm On Aug 30, 2015
J10 Chinese twin engine fighter with modern structural design that beat the wind with agility.

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Re: Pakistan J-17 Warpalne Discussion by Nobody: 3:02pm On Aug 30, 2015
Henry120:


Why is that, is it because South-Africa is always at the receiving end of my comments? cheesy cheesy

I agree with you, the JF-17 is a pretty impressive fighter for it's conservative price, it meets and exceeds all expectations of the Nigerian Airforce. If the JF-17 were western it would cost as much as the Gripen.


All though the SU-30 is class, I do not believe Nigeria needs the SU-30. It is a heavy high maintenance fighter, that very well meets our requirement but I don't believe we can afford it now. Probably in the future, but not now.


The block 3 looks fantastic. Here is another conceptual JF-17, let's call it the Super- JF-17. This upgrade could be a true rival to the Gripen NG.


The JF-17 provides the "bang-for-the-buck"!

I'm not here to have another NL verbal fight but don't make me laugh Henry.grin

The J-17 rival to the Gripen NG stop dreaming. The Gripen NG is a fully fledge 5th gen multi role fighter in the same class as the F-22 and F-35 and can stand toe to toe with any fighter currently in service both western or eastern. Don't come and compare your third world J-17 wish list to a Gripen NG please.

3 Likes

Re: Pakistan J-17 Warpalne Discussion by Nobody: 3:51pm On Aug 30, 2015
DictatorZAR:


I'm not here to have another NL verbal fight but don't make me laugh Henry.grin

The J-17 rival to the Gripen NG stop dreaming. The Gripen NG is a fully fledge 5th gen multi role fighter in the same class as the F-22 and F-35 and can stand toe to toe with any fighter currently in service both western or eastern. Don't come and compare your third world J-17 wish list to a Gripen NG please.

How is the JF-17 a 3rd world plane?



I said, the JF-17 block 3 would be a rival to the Gripen NG. The JF-17 block 3 would be considered as a 4++ Gen fighter, same as the Gripen NG, SU-35, Rafale, Eurofighter.

The Gripen NG is a 4++ Gen Aircraft.
Re: Pakistan J-17 Warpalne Discussion by Nobody: 4:01pm On Aug 30, 2015
FighterPilot:



The speed tells it all, JF17 makes Mach 1.6 and F/A 18 makes Mach 1.8. Very slow for interceptors of course.

With respect to agility there are no concrete specifications apart from the fact that aeronautical engineers believe that when short wings are put more to the front the fighter has a better control of the air and thus makes it more versatile against missile attacks. Like I said it has to do more with the innovation and evolution. Moreover, with short wings to the front, it makes the fighter to be more compact and still with more wider wingspan much bigger than those of Russian fighters which enable the fighter the advantage in terms of manoeuvrability.

I don't doubt that the designs for the Gripen, Rafale and J-10 are new. The JF-17 also features new structural designs and innovations.



In the case of the Eurofighter, the aircraft was designed to be unstable, this allows the plane to be much more agile than Fighters in it's class.


However in terms comparisons between the agility of the JF-17 and the Gripen, i can only say that given the newer innovations used on the JF-17 it allows the Fighter to be very maneuverable and agile than many of it's contemporaries.

Both the JF-17 and F/A-18 are multi-role jets, they aren't primary interceptors. A Fighter speeding at MACH 2 would burn out it's fuel in under 15 minutes, neither does speed determine agility. If this were the case, it means the MIG-31 is the world's most agile/maneuverable fighter.
Re: Pakistan J-17 Warpalne Discussion by FighterPilot(m): 4:14pm On Aug 30, 2015
Henry120:


How is the JF-17 a 3rd world plane?



I said, the JF-17 block 3 would be a rival to the Gripen NG. The JF-17 block 3 would be considered as a 4++ Gen fighter, same as the Gripen NG, SU-35, Rafale, Eurofighter.

The Gripen NG is a 4++ Gen Aircraft.

Gripen NG is a fifth gen fighter and far more superior than JF-17 bk III.

2 Likes

Re: Pakistan J-17 Warpalne Discussion by FighterPilot(m): 4:20pm On Aug 30, 2015
Henry120:


I don't doubt that the designs for the Gripen, Rafale and J-10 are new. The JF-17 also features new structural designs and innovations.



In the case of the Eurofighter, the aircraft was designed to be unstable, this allows the plane to be much more agile than Fighters in it's class.


However in terms comparisons between the agility of the JF-17 and the Gripen, i can only say that given the newer innovations used on the JF-17 it allows the Fighter to be very maneuverable and agile than many of it's contemporaries.

Both the JF-17 and F/A-18 are multi-role jets, they aren't primary interceptors. A Fighter speeding at MACH 2 would burn out it's fuel in under 15 minutes, neither does speed determine agility. If this were the case, it means the MIG-31 is the world's most agile/maneuverable fighter.


I beg to differ. Actually the JF-17 was designed as a low cost fighter to meet the shortfall experienced by the air wing of developing countries. It was not designed or build to rival expensive and more advanced stealth fighters. Putting and incorporating more features on to it will only make it more expensive and that's why is still bearing the old outdated structural design.

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