m_nwankwo:

@Deloaded
It is your choice. But what is pro-choice? What are your reasons for being pro-choice?

Um because we live in a world of free will? People should be able to do whatever they want with their own bodies. The "Vatican" or govt doesnt own it. It's not something I'd want for myself but why would I try to deny others the right to do so?

There is no evidence in the newspaper report to shown wheather or not the pregnancy is harmful or fatal to the mother

*whether

If you really care about the situation, you can easily look up the other articles about the matter. Doctors specifically said she cant handle the pregnancy. Case Closed.

What is the teaching of Jesus on abortion and how does it contradict the stand of the catholic church on abortion.

This excuse is really dumb. So dumb. Read the story of the adulterous woman and get back to me. (Hint: The Bible doesnt support adultery either)

This is your opinion but it is an unnecessary generalization

Thank you for letting me know that it's my opinion. I dont remember saying it was yours. If you see it as "generalization", that's your business.

It is not difficult for affected individuals to know when abortion of a pregnancy is to save the life of the mother or just for convinience. If one believes that an unborn baby is a human being and has the same God given rights as children, adults and old people, then abortion should not be contemplated except when robust medical evidence points to the pregnancy resulting in fatality or harm to the health of the mother

Once again it was stated in MANY ARTICLES about this story, the severe danger of this girl going full-term. Stop relying on me and go and read up on it on your own.

You have yet to explain why it's ok to excommunicate the mother and not the monster who put the girl in this predicament.

Um because we live in a world of free will? People should be able to do whatever they want with their own bodies. The "Vatican" or govt doesnt own it. It's not something I'd want for myself but why would I try to deny others the right to do so?

you are right but in the same vein you have no right to tell vatican how they should worship their God. The woman in question was excommunicated and not banned from the church [which means she cannot partake in holy communion unless she make peace with God]. on the other hand, nobody is holding her from leaving the church for a more righteous god chose pentecostal assembly that usually keep quiet in daisy situations like this.

This excuse is really dumb. So dumb. Read the story of the adulterous woman and get back to me. (Hint: The Bible doesnt support adultery either)

Have you finished high school b/c it seems to me you have an expertise in abusing people even when you are the dumber one?. How is the story of adultry related to this issue?.

Like I said before, i don't know what you worship and how you worship it but keep your values to yourself. why not show us where the bible allowed abortion in dire situations so e can help you murder the catholic church like the prophet of baals. The world is so liberal now that they will threaten to kill you if you stand for anything against their wish.

Hi again deloaded

Um because we live in a world of free will? People should be able to do whatever they want with their own bodies. The "Vatican" or govt doesnt own it. It's not something I'd want for myself but why would I try to deny others the right to do so?

The vatican does not own the body of the girl and neither is the girl or the mother the owner of the body. Our physical bodies are the gift of God and as such God is the owner of our bodies. Sure we can do with our bodies what we want but we are not free to accept or reject the consequences of our choice. We are bound to the consequences of our choice, and the consequences are determined by God who provided us with physical body.

*whether

If you really care about the situation, you can easily look up the other articles about the matter. Doctors specifically said she cant handle the pregnancy. Case Closed.

I have read a number of articles on this issue including the ones you posted. Their is no collborative medical report. It is only the opinion of the doctors involved in the abortion that is reported.

This excuse is really dumb. So dumb. Read the story of the adulterous woman and get back to me. (Hint: The Bible doesnt support adultery either)

I asked a question. I did not give an excuse. Besides their is wisdom in being dumb. I have read the story you reported. I got the hint. Now expalin the position of Jesus on Abortion.

Once again it was stated in MANY ARTICLES about this story, the severe danger of this girl going full-term. Stop relying on me and go and read up on it on your own.

I am not relying on you. You posted the article and when evidence is demanded on the medical report, you are asking me to search for articles. Ok, what medical evidence have you to show that a nine year old girl can successfully or unsucessfully ungergo pregnancy to full term? Why is it possible in scientific terms for some nine year olds to reach puperty as in this case while other nine year olds did not?

You have yet to explain why it's ok to excommunicate the mother and not the monster who put the girl in this predicament

I never said it is ok to excommunicate the mother and leave the child molester. I simply said that the church cannot  excommunicate any person from God. I have already said that child molestation, rape and abortion (except on ground that the pregnancy is fatal to the mother or harmful to her health) are evil. Their is no difference interms of evil for those who molest children, those that cover the molestation, those that rape, those that commit abortion. Cheers.

Who cares? Where does the bible support rape?

well the bible does not support rape but that doesn't mean  it's not seen n the world.  well you don't care about the word of God, that is understandable but stop insulting those who care and wish to keep it.

Why is the stepfather rapist forgiven but not the mother or child?

Catholic Church is and has always been BS. Get over it.

excommunication is penance and not unforgiveness. its only god that can forgive you. if god can forgive saul, why not a rapist?

Aloy.Emeka:

well the bible does not support rape but that doesn't mean  it's not seen n the world.  well you don't care about the word of God,

you seem to be the one who doesnt care cos you've yet to show me where it says A Church is allowed to kick out a member for trying to save their daughter's life. Where does it even say anyone is allowed to kick anyone out fo church? Didnt Jesus ask for the sinners to come? Is rape now a "better sin" than abortion? You are sincerely yarning dust and I dont care for discussing with you.

You are constantly contradicting yourself. Your arguments are pathetic. Dont know who you are fooling. Im still waiting for the Bible passage about how men can remarry and woman can not. Until then please be quiet.

Lemme ask you this: A catholic woman is being constantly physically abused by her husband, should she stay in the marriage becos it does not say in the bible that divorce can be granted in a case like this?

 The bible is more than black and white. Thou shalt not do this or that for every situation is not written in it. It's not about fitting our ideologies into it, but taking the entire word and applying its principles in making decisions in unique situations that are not spelt out word for word in it.

The catholic woman should seek the face of God in His word and what he said about divorce. The bible is not more than black and white, it's the leftists that use that excuse to infuse their ideologies into it. it may sound ludicruous to you but remember it's the same bible that requires us to forgive those who killed our mother or only child. That doesn't sound feasible, does it?.

what am saying is that our human mind is different from the mind of God. If we apply our ideologies to solve each case, then a fornicator will have a good reason why he fornicated. An adulterous woman will come up with excuses on how her husband screws the whole town while the thief will tell you he couldn't find a job.

The girl is 9yrs old, I repeat 9yrs old. Doctors said her life was being threatened and it could prove fatal if she had the babies . . . what kind of cold, unfeeling heart would still demand that the blanket letter of the law be followed when it is clear that this poor abused child desperately needs mercy? Jesus showed us times without number that it is more than laws and commandments, but moreso about the heart and intentions. I don't know of a situation where this could not be clearer.

doctors said her life is being threatened by what? dont 9-12 yr olds give birth in the north?. tell me where jesus accepted vice to extol virtue? one verse alone?

 I think I speak for others here when I ask who annointed those fellas the leaders of christians everywhere?    They are not my leaders, I don't answer to them, I answer to God and His word.

oh well, you ask for their authenticity? stop playing with fire biko.

I understand your point and I agree that the left's agenda is being forced on religion but this issue is seperate & divorced from the topic at hand. Lets keep the discussion on the girl's case.

no difference, the left always clamp their claws on issues like this to discredit the bible and it's incompleteness.

you seem to be the one who doesnt care cos you've yet to show me where it says A Church is allowed to kick out a member for trying to save their daughter's life. Where does it even say anyone is allowed to kick anyone out fo church? Didnt Jesus ask for the sinners to come? Is rape now a "better sin" than abortion? You are sincerely yarning dust and I dont care for discussing with you.

Where did the catholic church support the rapist?. You need more education because excommunication does not mean kick out. Ask and you shall receive, seek and you shall find. Thats all i gotta say but stop spraying your ignorance here like a dimwit.

I have read a number of articles on this issue including the ones you posted. Their is no collborative medical report. It is only the opinion of the doctors involved in the abortion that is reported.

Rofl. So what you're saying is that the doctors were merely going off their own opinion. They saw the girl and immediately assumed that she would die if she did this and sent her home. You wanna sit there and tell me they didnt do various test on the CHILD to see if she could carry that burden. You believe this cos they didnt publish her medical records for you and your Vatican to see. Abi?

I never said it is ok to excommunicate the mother and leave the child molester. I simply said that the church cannot  excommunicate any person from God.

Then what exactly is your problem?   You're either for the excommunication or against it. You cant play to both sides.

Aloy, go back to stalking Tpia and stop making noise here. She has started ignoring you and you are now looking for another host to latch on like the pathetic tick that you are. All your trash makes absolutely no sense. What does the girls of the North have to do with anything? Did anyone say it's not possible for a 9 year old to get pregnant or take one to term? In the girl's case, it was considered dangeous. Is that hard for you to understand or must i ask osisi to trnalste it to Igbo for you? Seriously, I dont have time for your madness. Koriburuku koro waju mi.

Go back to school.

Excommunication is a religious censure used to [b]deprive or suspend membership [/b]in a religious community.

This has turned into a juvenile jibjabs. Good nite

Good Riddance. Dont forget to pray to the pope before you sleep to watch over you.

if the catholic church fails to excommunicate the rapist, the law will excommunicate him from the society to the prison.

Thank God for society.

Even prisoners consider rapist to be the lowest of the low.

You see we are aware that abortion is wrong when its done for the wrong reasons. If performing an abortion will save the mother's life, then by all means perform it.

The world and its issues in which we live has grown to be so complex. It isn't always easy to talk of matters in black and white, but anyone with a sense of decency and common sense should know that when the doctors say that a nine-year-old girl will die if she doesn't abort, then work with the program.

If the RC church is so concerned about the life of fetuses, then what about the life of the child of nine? What would be the point of bringing 2 infants into the world without their mother, and having to face a father who brought them into the world through an act of rape. The world is already infested with unwanted children who are suffering enough.

i cant keep reading dis thread, im not sure u guys know d repercussion of wat ur sayin against d catholic church, there r beta ways 2 condemn wateva injustice dat has happened, but sayin all trash against d vatican, d catholic church is so outrageous, i know d catholic church is not exactly perfect, but it is d most true nd trusted church, its teaching was handed on by jesus as peter was d 1st pope of d catholic church, the pope if u dont know is jesus representative on earth, of course there hav bin a lot of scandal in d catholic church, but wat do u expect , d devil is everywhere tryin to pull d children of God down, if u know d trainin these annointed people undertook b4 being where they r u wil neva say a thing against them, everything dat happens in d catholic church was instituted by jesus christ. the catholic church hav its set rules dat cannot be waivered 4 anybody. the catholic church is strictly against abortion. when u eat a food u like at any time u like it surely goes in2 d stomach nd get digested u cant stop it, wen d food has 2 b forced in2 ur mouth it still get digested nd u cant say because it was forced into my mouth it cease 2 bcome food thus it wont b digested. d food remains food nd d belly will absorb it. the 9yr old father is a very shameless man 4 wat he did but it dosnt stop foetus 4rm bein foetus, it is an injustice to take d life of a person who cannot defend himself, dat baby would choose 2 live if it can speak, but u who ends d life betray d trust. speaking about if she can carry d pregnancy yes she can only dat she wil b robbed of her childhood, immediately those eggs got fertilized her body was turned 2 a womans so pls join in d fight nd shun abortion. u dont hav d right to choose if one has 2 live or die. wait a minute, i just googled it up, see, d catholic church did not even do all dat u accused it of doin, pple r rily bad, they just like saying wrong things about the catholic church

y do u all even carry fake news, nd look how many pple hav ignorantly committed sin by their horrible statements, plz wen u hear a story google it up 2 confirm b4 u say sumtin dat wil put u in ur grave one day.HERE'S WAT D VATICAN ND THE CATHOLIC CHURCH DID IN DAT SITUATION

The Brazilian press attacked the Catholic Church today, falsely reporting that the 9-year old girl, raped earlier this year by her step-father and pregnant with twins, had been excommunicated.


The Archbishop of this Northeastern Brazilian region explained that, contrary to the press reports, all those involved in the abortion have incurred in excommunication latae sententiae (automatically) “except for the little girl, who is not morally responsible for this tragic act.”

The girl was required to have the twins aborted on Thursday at a hospital in Recife, Brazil.

The Catholic Church teaches that a person who commits a sin of grave matter must be fully conscious, or in this case, have a mature understanding of the act they are committing.  Archbishop Cardoso said that “in order to incur an excommunication, it is required to have a full conscience of the act. In this sense, the Church is benevolent with the minors and the victims of abortion.”

“All those who approved, promoted and performed, confirm all these in dis sites
www.catholicnewsagency.com/new.php?n=15301
see? see stop bad mouthing d catholic church

justybaby:

[b]y do u all even carry fake news, nd look how many pple hav ignorantly committed sin by their horrible statements, plz wen u hear a story google it up 2 confirm b4 u say sumtin dat wil put u in ur grave one day.[/b]HERE'S WAT D VATICAN ND THE CATHOLIC CHURCH DID IN DAT SITUATION

The Brazilian press attacked the Catholic Church today, falsely reporting that the 9-year old girl, raped earlier this year by her step-father and pregnant with twins, had been excommunicated.


The Archbishop of this Northeastern Brazilian region explained that, contrary to the press reports, all those involved in the abortion have incurred in excommunication latae sententiae (automatically) “except for the little girl, who is not morally responsible for this tragic act.”

The girl was required to have the twins aborted on Thursday at a hospital in Recife, Brazil.

The Catholic Church teaches that a person who commits a sin of grave matter must be fully conscious, or in this case, have a mature understanding of the act they are committing.  Archbishop Cardoso said that “in order to incur an excommunication, it is required to have a full conscience of the act. In this sense, the Church is benevolent with the minors and the victims of abortion.”

“All those who approved, promoted and performed,  confirm all these in dis sites
www.catholicnewsagency.com/new.php?n=15301
see? see stop bad mouthing d catholic church

maybe you are the one who needs Google up stories by you start bad mouthing ppl. the article in this story was the ORIGINAL story reported by AP and other news sites before it was posted here. so wot the heck is your problem maybe you should write to AP and many other sites who originally reported the story and tell them to Google it up before posting nonsense. and wasn't it a member of the Vatican that also said that the action of the Brazilian whatever was wrong? so maybe you should warn him also? rubbish.

Its quite a shame to see many you guys castigating the Catholic church for what was done in Brazil. we all have seen stories of Pastors, committing murder, raping people and all sorts of atrocities; churches springing up for the main purpose of generating wealth ( i even know of a popular one where pastors build their parishes as investments). I f i should go on. I am a catholic and proud to be one, having attended several churches (for visits) without criticism and still stuck to my faith. You would all agree with me that the Catholic church is the most organised on earth, and that all other churches sprung out of it. I really sympathize with the scenario but strongly believe this thread "religion" is not for criticising churches as we all have one aim which is wining the race and achieving the crown (Heaven) through Jesus Christ. Please focus your strength on criticising Muslims who preach against Christianity.

i honestly think this was just too harsh, i'm not supporting the parents or the girl here, but the idea of excommunicating som1 cox of that is just blatantly too harsh. majority of Catholics commit abortion n r still Catholics, priest molest kids n some r still priest so i dnt think this was the right course of action to take they should have taken another action. come to think of it shouldn't the stupid idiot that calls himself the step father b the first to b excommunicated 4 the hideous crime he committed .

Anyone who commits abortion are automatically excommunicated at the time of the abortion, the woman was already excommunicated, all the Church did was make it known.
If the woman is contrite for her actions she can reinstate herself in the grace of Christ.

What I want to know is this? How is it sad that a person commits murder and is punished for it? Or is it that abortion is now ok? Since when is murder ok? Why does the child have to loose his/her life because of the evil actions of a man? Isn't the child a victim too? Why victimize the child even more? Is it the child's fault that the mother was raped? Why was the child punished for the crime of another?

Or is it that because we cannot physically see the child we automatically assume that they're not human or that they're nothing or that they're without life?

Um because we live in a world of free will? People should be able to do whatever they want with their own bodies. The "Vatican" or govt doesnt own it. It's not something I'd want for myself but why would I try to deny others the right to do so?

So suicide is ok, and we shouldn't try to prevent those who want to commit suicide from doing it?

Also the woman isn't deciding what to do with her body, she is deciding what to do with another person's body. The child too has a right to live.

You see we are aware that abortion is wrong when its done for the wrong reasons. If performing an abortion will save the mother's life, then by all means perform it.

Why is abortion wrong in the first place?

Lemme ask you this: A catholic woman is being constantly physically abused by her husband, should she stay in the marriage becos it does not say in the bible that divorce can be granted in a case like this?

She does not have to live in the same house with him, but she cannot receive a divorce from the Church. If she and her husband entered into the marriage truthfully and without reservations she cannpt receive a divorce, but if it can be proven that the marriage wasn't entered into with truth then an annulment is granted.
If a divorce cannot be granted, it is permitted that they both divorce civily for the sake of property, but they are sacramentally joined together, sacramentally is forever. So neither of them can remarry or have sexual relations with other people, they would commit adultery.

It is a hard pill to swallow, but Christ's words are straightforward.

I think I speak for others here when I ask who annointed those fellas the leaders of christians everywhere? They are not my leaders, I don't answer to them, I answer to God and His word

Who appointed the Bible leader of Christians?

I do not subscribe to the idea that aborting a fetus is wrong, it all goes back to the debate of when does life really start? The moment of birth gives a pretty fine line as to where life starts, then the rights of thee child can be fully protected.
Coming back to this story, I thought the church was the place for sinners to go to? I thought sins were equal in the church (at least all mortal sins and all venial sins) last I check missing church on Sunday was a mortal sin as is abortion so why excommunicate them?
Are there no people who have confessed murder of full grown human beings and gotten forgiveness? why is the "life"of a fetus more important than kids dying in daffur?
Life is not at all in anyway sacred to the biblical God, at least not the God of the old testament so why are Christians vehemently against it? Because last I checked the Thou shall not kill was part of the ten commandments just before Moses' army killed the innocent women and children, this is a seriously twisted sense of reason!
Abortions were already happening 1500 years before christ came on this earth, why did he not openly condemn it?
My two cents.

most times when pple write out of hate, it lacks merit.
and yes i am a Catholic.

if my child, (God forbid) goes through same, i will not make her have an abortion.
every person including an unborn child deserves the right to life, simple as that.

the parents and the doctors who are Catholics already knew the implication of what there were about to do, so it makes little sense in them accepting it or not. . . . it is just like breaking a curfew, face the concequences. . .


Catholics are mammons, Catholics are demons, witches, bla bla bla, why not face and practise that which you feel comfortable with and leave that which you barely understand? ? ? ?

if you really think murder is ok in any circumstance, i fear we will never believe in the same thing. . . .

and by the way Dereloaded, i dont quite agree that people should do whatever they desire to their bodies,
im really suprised all those making long posts here are ok with such. . . .

oh and by the way, excommunication means that you can no longer receive the sacrements, but you still can receive the sacrament of reconcilation. . . .

it could help if you have a little more understandn before commenting on things. . . .

as i said earlier, quit acting/postn out of hate, you always end up sounding sad.

I do not subscribe to the idea that aborting a fetus is wrong, it all goes back to the debate of when does life really start? The moment of birth gives a pretty fine line as to where life starts, then the rights of thee child can be fully protected.
Coming back to this story, I thought the church was the place for sinners to go to? I thought sins were equal in the church (at least all mortal sins and all venial sins) last I check missing church on Sunday was a mortal sin as is abortion so why excommunicate them?
Are there no people who have confessed murder of full grown human beings and gotten forgiveness? why is the "life"of a fetus more important than kids dying in daffur?
Life is not at all in anyway sacred to the biblical God, at least not the God of the old testament so why are Christians vehemently against it? Because last I checked the Thou shall not kill was part of the ten commandments just before Moses' army killed the innocent women and children, this is a seriously twisted sense of reason!
Abortions were already happening 1500 years before christ came on this earth, why did he not openly condemn it?
My two cents.

Ok Chris

1) At the moment of conception is the fetus dead?
2) Sweetheart, did you fail your catechism class or what? Mortal and Venial sins are not the same. One cuts you off from God completely that is mortal, the other doesn't but it does wound your soul and makes it easier for you to commit the mortal sin. It's called mortal for a reason, mortal meaning deadly.
3) Sinners are definitely welcomed in the church. Excommunication doesn't mean you have to stop coming to church, it just means you cannot partake of the sacrament of the eucharist, and the other sacraments except reconciliation. Actually every one excommunicates themselves from the church when they sin, and in order to be united with the church again, one has to go to reconciliation. So excommunication does not have to be announced by the church, the Pope or Bishop doesn't have to be the one to make the decree, when a person commits a mortal sin, he or she is automatically excommunicated. If this young girl did not tell anyone that she had an abortion, she would still be excommunicated anyway. People excommunicate themselves, the church just announces it. I've excommunicated myself several times, the only thing is the Bishop didn't make a formal announcement. I've returned to the church by the sacrament of reconciliation.
4) The life of a fetus is not more important than a kid in darfur, that's why the church is working hard and catholics charity workers are getting killed in darfur. You won't hear that in the news because anything to put to church in a good light is taboo.
As I was saying. All life is sacred, including the life of the late term abortionist that was murdered, Dr. Tiller. Evil means can never justify good ends. The means can never justify the ends. That's the difference between being pro-life, and anti-abortion. Pro-life means EVERYONE, EVERYONE'S life is sacred, including those who kill others.
That is the reason why the life of the mother is not more important than the life of the child in the womb. They are equally important, and it is not for us to choose which life is more important.
5) Christ condemned it. All he did was not put into the Bible, doesn't mean it didn't happen. Besides it has always been noted in the christian communities that abortion is an intrinsic evil.

Even the Romans as wicked as they were, would wait until after a woman gives birth before they execute her. They valued the unborn, ironic, but that says something.

and by the way Dereloaded, i dont quite agree that people should do whatever they desire to their bodies,

why can't people do whatever they desire to their bodies?

bawomolo:

why can't people do whatever they desire to their bodies?

So people should be allowe to blow their brains out with a bullet?

I think men should keep quiet when rape and abortions are discussed, unless they are specialists. I don't really understand why they feel they have the right to express their views concerning these issues when they obviously know nothing about them.

@Dereloaded

I put it to you that your reactions is not just because of this topic, you are simply a Catholic Church hater, period.

Now a Bishop in Brazil allegedly excommunicated some people because they committed an abortion to save a child's life and suddenly the Catholic Church is Mormonism? The Catholic Church is as bad as can be imagined to you for this singular reason.

I advise you to examine yourself sincerely, what exactly do you have against the Catholic Church because this definitely is not it. Open your mind, state them here sincerely.

The time has come that those who attack the Church think of themselves to be righteous! Protestants, Pentecostals, Freemasons, Illuminati s, Atheists, Ogbonis, just name them.
The simple truth is that if the Mother Church were like the world, the world would have loved her. But its only that which is not planted by God that can be uprooted.