truthman2012:


If Hinduis is right, what is the need for islam as they are the same. The name of Muhammad is in Hindus scripture. Why should Hindus, a religion of satan recognize Muhammad as a prophet if they are not under the same deity?

Demmzy15:

Of course the modified bible would want you to believe this, but reverse is the case.


@emboldened this is to show that the reason Ishmael was sent away wasn't because he mocked but another different reason entirely which is a command by God. Ishmael was 14years when Isaac was born, and Isaac was weaned for about 2-3 years which then shows that Ishmael was 17years old during the "alleged" mockery.

When Hagar was about to embark on the journey with Ishmael, a striking description is made in which doesn't fit a teenager but rather an infant. Let's see:

[b]"14 So Abraham rose early in the morning, and took bread and a skin of water, and gave it to Hagar, putting it on [size=14pt]her shoulder, along with the child,[/size] and sent her away. And she departed, and wandered about in the wilderness of Beer-sheba. 15 When the water in the skin was gone, she cast the child under one of the bushes. 16 Then she went and sat down opposite him a good way off, about the distance of a bowshot; for she said, "Do not let me look on the death of the child." And as she sat opposite him, she lifted up her voice and wept. 17 And God heard the voice of the boy; and the angel of God called to Hagar from heaven, and said to her, "What troubles you, Hagar? Do not be afraid; for God has heard the voice of the boy where he is. 18 Come, lift up the boy and hold him fast [size=14pt]with your hand,[/size] for I will make a great nation of him." 19 Then God opened her eyes and she saw a well of water. She went, and filled the skin with water, and gave the boy a drink.[/b] Genesis 21:14-19

NOTE:
1. In Genesis 21:14,does it make sense that Abraham put a 17year old boy on his mother's shoulder? My junior brother is 17years and he's already bigger, taller than my parents talk more of my mother. Those this show a teenager or a child?

2. In Genesis 21:15, how can Hagar "cast" a teenager into the "bush" for him to rest? This scenario is like a women cooking good and she places her child probably on a shade or somewhere the child won't disturb her. So how can this verse point to a teenager?

3. We read in Genesis 21:16 that Hagar sat far away from Ishmael so as not to see him die before her own eyes. Is this the profile of a full-grown teenager who should, more appropriately be worried about his mother or of a helpless baby?

4. In Genesis 21:17, how can Hagar lift a 17year old boy with her hands? It'll make more sense that Ishmael lifts up Hagar rather than Hagar lifts him up!

5. In Genesis 21:20 we read that after this incident, "God was with the lad; and he grew, and dwelt in the wilderness, and became an archer." Is this a profile of a fully developed teenager or a child who is growing up, learning, and developing?


You're sounding like a Pained nigga, stop throwing tantrums and read. When you were 17years old in the 1960s, could your mother carry you on her shoulder?


Lol, if we're talking about paganism in any religion it's Christianity. So now go back and read the post of Rilwayne001, it's clear and simple. No ambiguous words were used, even a child will understand perfectly.

Rilwayne001:


This was the reply brother lanrex lan gave him:




Can we still after the underlined say this practise was copied from the pagans? NO. This reply has been brought to his face times without number. But due to the fact that they are not ready for the truth but silly back and forte arguement, he turned blind eye on it.

dolphinheart:
What does islam mean when it says something is a "symbol of allah" ?
When did it become a symbol?was it a symbol when the before hagar ran accross it seven times?
Why is it a symbol?

On ishmeals age issue
According to islam and their religious books , What was ishmaels age or age range as at the time he left with his mother?

Why did hagar leave with her son?

Who was the son abraham wanted to sacrifice, Isaac or Ishmael. ?
If its Ishmael, was he still a baby at that time?

On the cresent moon issue.
Does islam condemn the use of that symbol to represent islam? Is the use of that symbol Islamic?

I want or prefer a sincere , non abusive person to answer my questions.

Lastly , pls I need further explanation on how pagans misplaced/missed/changed/forgot the God they where serving with that ritual but did not actually misplace/miss/change/forget the process of that ritual.

edrys:

You are not seeking the truth Bro. cos you already made up your mind not to learn or see anything good in Islam. Mind you, how was it possible for the Isrealite to carve a golden calf when Moses (ASW) went up the mount to collect the 10 commandments despite the fact that God led and help them to overcome their adversary on the way to promise land.

truthman2012:


Firstly, you didn't answer my question on how pagans could highjack islamic worship system (Safa and Marwah) meant for islamic allah. If it is true they converted islamic worship for their idols, it means the idols and islamic allah have something in common. Can you imagine idol worshipers shouting 'halleluyah' before their idols or placing a cross in their shrine? They are not compatible.

[s]It is because idol worship and islam have something in common, hence Muhammad praying with pagans. Sango (an idol) worshipers cannot assemble with Christians to worship the true God.[/s]

What is derivable far from Rilwayne001's post is that after the death of Abraham and Ishmael, ALL Meccans (with none left) went the way of idolalers, which is impossible in the first place and pagan took over the religious legacy left behind by Abraham and Ishmael. All people could not leave islam without a single person remaining. Besides, he (Rilwayne001) could not support his claim with any evidence.

Coming to your explanation on the Bible passage you cited, you really goofed.

How did you arrive at Ishmael being 17 years old when he was cast out?

Do women wean children after as long as 2-3 years? Take it easy na!

Ishmael was a boy and not a baby and that was why he could mock Sarah, for which reason he was sent out. Your interpretation of the bible passage is erroneous.

Gen. 21:14
New International Version:

Early the next morning Abraham
took some food and a skin of
water and gave them to Hagar. He
set them on her shoulders and
then sent her off with the BOY.
She went on her way and
wandered in the Desert of
Beersheba.

New Living Translation:

So Abraham got up early the next
morning, prepared food and a
container of water, and strapped
them on Hagar's shoulders. Then
he sent her away with their son,
and she wandered aimlessly in the
wilderness of Beersheba.

This is the Version you misinterpreted due to your shallow bible knowledge:

King James Bible:

And Abraham rose up early in the
morning, and took bread, and a
bottle of water, and GAVE it unto
Hagar, putting it on her shoulder,
and the child, and sent her away:
and she departed, and wandered
in the wilderness of Beersheba.

[s]Abraham put the luggage on Hagar shoulder and gave her the BOY. It doesn't mean he put both the the luggage and the boy on Hagar's shoulder. Wait a minute! What was Hagar carrying that Abraham had to put both luggage and the son on her shoulder? Could she not carry Ishmael on her shoulder by herself if he was a baby? The truth is Ismael was a boy and was given or handed over to her when being cast out.[/s]

Look at another version:

Holman Christian Standard Bible:

Early in the morning Abraham got
up, took bread and a waterskin,
put them on Hagar's shoulders,
and sent her and the boy away.
She left and wandered in the
Wilderness of Beer-sheba.

A 14 years old boy could be treated as a young child that needs the mother's tender care but definitely not a child being breastfed.

plainbibletruth:


[s]Demmzy15, Rilwayne001:
Muslims would have us believe that their ritual are based on what older people like Abraham, Hagar, etc did. 
IT IS CLEAR that they agree that the earlier pagans practiced the same rituals they do today. 

What I find you guys repeating IS NOT EXPLANATION of why these rituals are being performed but merely restating that they've always been performed. 
 
So the questions still remain:
1. Of what SIGNIFICANCE is Muslims' ritual of running between two mountains SIMPLY because Hagar did it?
2. What does what Hagar did REPRESENT? 
3. What is the VALUE in it? 
4. If the pagan generations that practiced these things before Mohammed "replaced the same and other fabrications in dedication to their idols." how did Mohammed and Islam come to UNDERSTAND them?[/s]

Demmzy15:

The answer to your questions were properly answered throughout this thread, you claim to be an old man but your brain is so primitive. Stop claiming boss, you've been exposed already.


Call it whatever you like or whatever you want, that doesn't prove anything. Continue worshipping your cross!


Like I said earlier, you're primitive. What did the Jews do when Moses was away? You have to be sincere with yourself, stop takkiyah. When Moses was with God, the Jews indulged in idol worship, the bible didn't pay attention to the those who remained with God.


Ohh! Really? Let's see your pathetic explanations.


Read my previous post, it's very simple and self explanatory.


Grandpa, how many years were you weaned?


You're yet to prove that, you're just beating round the Bush. You're defeated!


Did the verse stop in 14? Continue now, by the way translation I used was the "New Revised Standard Version of the Bible which was compiled from manuscripts more ancient than those of the King James Version of the Bible." So you could go further and see if indeed it fits a baby or a teenage.


Lmaooooo! See who is talking, better study your religion first before jumping into Islam.


The emboldened explains it all.


But a 17year old neither can be placed on a shoulder nor be lifted up by his mother except if he's a retard which is not so.

NOTE: This issue of Ishmael's age came about when Rilwayne001 posted an hadith explaining your gibberish thread. You then tried to disprove by using the bible which is not so because we don't hold the bible as a confirmation for the Quran and hadith. When the Quran contradicts the bible, that doesn't prove anything rather than the bible is incorrect. The hadith stated Ishmael was a baby when his mum was in the wilderness, so I don't need the bible to confirm this for me.

truthman2012:


Trash!

Characteristic of muslims you employed abuses to cover up. Smh!

[s]What is the reason for pagans' compatibity with islamic worship system? Why were they worshiping their idols the same way you worship allah? Left unaswered![/s]

[s]Why did pagans join Muhammad and they both prayed islamically? No answer.
I tell you the truth, islam and paganism are one and the same.[/s]

Demmzy15:

Water brain! Go back and read again, stop deluding yourself. I don't why you guys are so dumb.

plainbibletruth:


It appears that until you resort to abuses you never feel normal.
It is also obvious when you guys are not able to answer simple questions.
Why don't you either simply cut and paste the answers or ADMIT that you don't have the answers?
Lol!

truthman2012:

Where did Muhammad read that Safa and Marwah was an act by Ishmael mother?

The same Bukhari wrote that Safa and Marwah was the practice of pagans. I asked some questions which you could not answer:

How could the pagan highjack islamic worship system(Safa and Marwah) if they were not compatible?

How could idol worshipers adopt the system of the true God?

[s]The truth remains there is a connection between paganism and islam. No wonder Muhammad could pray with pagans:

Sahih Bukhari Volume 006, Book 060, Hadith Number 385.
Narrated By Ibn Abbas : The Prophet performed a prostration when he finished reciting Surat-an-Najm, and all the Muslims and pagans and Jinns and human beings prostrated along with him.[/s]

plainbibletruth:


Demmzy15, Rilwayne001:
Muslims would have us believe that their ritual are based on what older people like Abraham, Hagar, etc did.

IT IS CLEAR that they agree that the earlier pagans practiced the same rituals they do today.

What I find you guys repeating IS NOT EXPLANATION of why these rituals are being performed but merely restating that they've always been performed.

So the questions still remain:
1. Of what SIGNIFICANCE is Muslims' ritual of running between two mountains SIMPLY because Hagar did it?

2. What does what Hagar did REPRESENT? 
3. What is the VALUE in it?

4. If the pagan generations that practiced these things before Mohammed "replaced the same and other fabrications in dedication to their idols." how did Mohammed and Islam come to UNDERSTAND them?

Demmzy15:

It is clearly shown in the hadeeth, Muhammad is a Prophet of Allah and he received revelations from God.
Tafsir of the Quran by Ibn Kathir states:
".....Isma`il's mother then returned to her place, started drinking water from the water-skin and nursing Isma`il. When the water was used up, she and her son became thirsty. She looked at him, and he was suffering from thirst; she left, because she disliked seeing his face in that condition. She found the nearest mountian to where she was, As-Safa, ascended it and looked, in vain, hoping to see somebody. When she came down to the valley, she raised her garment and ran, just as a tired person runs, until she reached the Al-Marwah mountain. In vain, she looked to see if there was someone there. She ran to and fro (between the two mountains) seven times.'' Ibn `Abbas said that the Messenger of Allah said, "This is why the people make the trip between As-Safa and Al-Marwah (during Hajj and Umrah).''....."

These were things that were there before paganism.
They were rituals which were done by Abraham and Ishmael.
The people of the area followed the religion of Ibrahim through the guidance of Ishmael since he was the prophet of the area.
As time went on and he passed away the people started to stray away from the religion and started introducing foreign things and other gods into their worship.
In the end the only thing that was left from the religion of Ibrahim and Ishmael were those few things.


Did Bukhari write that this ritual was [size=14pt]introduced or first practiced by the pagan Arabs?[/size] You need to know the difference, it was practiced first by Hagar then the later generations which then plunged themselves into paganism continued this practice. The Prophet explained to them in the Ibn Abbas narration that it was this act of Hagar that Safar and Marwah was introduced. Understood?


Bowing down is a form of worship which is meant for God only, Jesus himself bowed down to God. But still today, we have religions in which it requires you to bow down to their idols. Now my question is, if Muslims, Christians and Hindus bow down during worship does that mean we're(Muslims and Christians) worshiping idols just because the Hindus do something similar? This was why the post of malvisguy212 was easily flawed, he tried to pull out similarities between Islam and Hinduism but at the end, Christianity and Hinduism have similar traditions too.


Thrash!

When Moses was away, didn't the Israelites bow down to a golden calf? A form of worship which God himself claimed is for him alone. Guy use your head!

Demmzy15:

Of course has clearly explained by the Prophet Muhammad!

Demmzy15:



But you're free to abuse my God and Prophet right? Guy no vex me fa!


Mr. Man go back to the replies given by the Muslims on this post. It's clear, unambiguous!


Trash! If I start with paganism and Christianity, wallahi you go enter ground.

dolphinheart:
What does islam mean when it says something is a "symbol of allah" ?
When did it become a symbol?was it a symbol when the before hagar ran accross it seven times?
Why is it a symbol?

On ishmeals age issue
According to islam and their religious books , What was ishmaels age or age range as at the time he left with his mother?

Why did hagar leave with her son?

Who was the son abraham wanted to sacrifice, Isaac or Ishmael. ?
If its Ishmael, was he still a baby at that time?

On the cresent moon issue.
Does islam condemn the use of that symbol to represent islam? Is the use of that symbol Islamic?

I want or prefer a sincere , non abusive person to answer my questions.

Lastly , pls I need further explanation on how pagans misplaced/missed/changed/forgot the God they where serving with that ritual but did not actually misplace/miss/change/forget the process of that ritual.

plainbibletruth:


All that you are still doing is to state that you do what you do today because your prophets and people of old did it. 

The question you're yet to answer is: why did they do it? 
Why did Hagar run between two mountains?
Is running between two mountains of any significance to you, if so how?
What benefit is there in doing this and other rituals?

Yes your forebears did it, but for what purpose? Simply stating that you do it because they did it doesn't answer the 'why?'. 

dolphinheart:

plainbibletruth

Seems no one wants to answer

edrys:

If you follow the chronological of event. What would you have done in that circumstance? Give up, blame the causer of the problem(Ibrahim asw), give up on your faith or use faith where the hope of surviving is only by a miracle? The lesson which everyone of us must learn from the story is never to lose FAITH 'IMAN' in Allah when face with life trials and problem. (This is what Muslim still uphold during hajj) We should be resilient in the face of hardship and should not renounce our convinction in Allah when tempted. Thank you OP cos you make me pay attention to d significance of what must have happened to Hagar while she was distressed but she kept faith hoping that Allah will send help which He eventually sent through Angel Jubril.

truthman2012:
Rilwayne001



The above is a plain lie. Ishmael was not a baby when he was sent out:

Ten years living in Canaan (Gen 16:3). Abraham was 86 years old when he had Ishmael (Gen16: 16). Abraham was 100 years when Isaac was born (Gen 21:5) So then to find the age of Ishmael at this time we subtract 86 from100 and it gives us 14 years. Is that a baby? Isn’t that a teenager?

Genesis 21 in excerpts:

5 Abraham was a hundred years old when his son Isaac was born to him.

and the text continues:

8 The child grew and was weaned, and on the day Isaac was weaned
Abraham held a great feast.
9 But Sarah saw that the son (Ishmael )whom Hagar the Egyptian had borne to
Abraham was mocking,

Analyzing this you find that:

Isaac was born after Ishmael. Therefore Ishmael must have been weaned long before Isaac. So Ishmael could not be a baby when he was sent out. So it is a lie that Ishmael was being suckled when they got to Mecca.

The reason Hagar and her son, Ishmael were sent out was because Sarah caught Ishmael mocking her. Can a baby still being breastfed mock?

The whole account of Ishmael in Mecca was a lie formulated by the devil to deceive humanity. The quran never tells how and why Ishmael got to Mecca, why the silence? It never tells the reason for the Jews wanting to kill Jesus, why the silence?

From where did Muhammad read that Safa and Marwah was an act by Ishmael mother?

The same Bukhari wrote that Safa and Marwah was the practice of pagans. I asked some questions which you could not answer:

How could the pagan highjack islamic worship system(Safa and Marwah) if they were not compatible?

How could idol worshipers adopt the system of the true God?

The truth remains there is a connection between paganism and islam. No wonder Muhammad could pray with pagans:

Sahih Bukhari Volume 006, Book 060, Hadith Number 385.
Narrated By Ibn Abbas : The Prophet performed a prostration when he finished reciting Surat-an-Najm, and all the Muslims and pagans and Jinns and human beings prostrated along with him.

truthman2012:


Firstly, you didn't answer my question on how pagans could highjack islamic worship system (Safa and Marwah) meant for islamic allah. If it is true they converted islamic worship for their idols, it means the idols and islamic allah have something in common. Can you imagine idol worshipers shouting 'halleluyah' before their idols or placing a cross in their shrine? They are not compatible.

It is because idol worship and islam have something in common, hence Muhammad praying with pagans. Sango (an idol) worshipers cannot assemble with Christians to worship the true God.

What is derivable far from Rilwayne001's post is that after the death of Abraham and Ishmael, ALL Meccans (with none left) went the way of idolalers, which is impossible in the first place and pagan took over the religious legacy left behind by Abraham and Ishmael. All people could not leave islam without a single person remaining. Besides, he (Rilwayne001) could not support his claim with any evidence.

Coming to your explanation on the Bible passage you cited, you really goofed. How did you arrive at Ishmael being 17 years old when he was cast out? Do women wean children after as long as 2-3 years? Take it easy na!

Ishmael was a boy and not a baby and that was why he could mock Sarah, for which reason he was sent out. Your interpretation of the bible passage is erroneous.

Gen. 21:14
New International Version:

Early the next morning Abraham
took some food and a skin of
water and gave them to Hagar. He
set them on her shoulders and
then sent her off with the BOY.
She went on her way and
wandered in the Desert of
Beersheba.

New Living Translation:

So Abraham got up early the next
morning, prepared food and a
container of water, and strapped
them on Hagar's shoulders. Then
he sent her away with their son,
and she wandered aimlessly in the
wilderness of Beersheba.

This is the Version you misinterpreted due to your shallow bible knowledge:

King James Bible:

And Abraham rose up early in the
morning, and took bread, and a
bottle of water, and GAVE it unto
Hagar, putting it on her shoulder,
and the child, and sent her away:
and she departed, and wandered
in the wilderness of Beersheba.

Abraham put the luggage on Hagar shoulder and gave her the BOY. It doesn't mean he put both the the luggage and the boy on Hagar's shoulder. Wait a minute! What was Hagar carrying that Abraham had to put both luggage and the son on her shoulder? Could she not carry Ishmael on her shoulder by herself if he was a baby? The truth is Ismael was a boy and was given or handed over to her when being cast out.

Look at another version:

Holman Christian Standard Bible:

Early in the morning Abraham got
up, took bread and a waterskin,
put them on Hagar's shoulders,
and sent her and the boy away.
She left and wandered in the
Wilderness of Beer-sheba.

A 14 years old boy could be treated as a young child that needs the mother's tender care but definitely not a child being breastfed.

reallest:
Religion people with their problem :DReligion people with their problem

plainbibletruth:


All that you are still doing is to state that you do what you do today because your prophets and people of old did it.

The question you're yet to answer is: why did they do it? 

Why did Hagar run between two mountains?

Is running between two mountains of any significance to you, if so how?

What benefit is there in doing this and other rituals?

[s]Yes your forebears did it, but for what purpose? Simply stating that you do it because they did it doesn't answer the 'why?'.[/s]

malvisguy212:
[s]read the op and see , All the evidence are there in the quran and hadith, if the muslims in muhammed era believe doing tawaf between safa and marwa come from Abraham or ishmael, why did they dislike it in the first place ? When did the pagan hijacks this very same ritual ?only muhammed claimed the kabba was a place to worship God , NO other prophet made such claimed,If the Kaba was the house of God, why did Muhammad order his followers to face Jerusalem? Muhammad's 'revelation' in the Quran says that when Allah had Muhammad change prayer directions, it was a test of the Muslims. This sounds like a lame excuse on Muhammad's part.
What's the test? Face another direction?
That does not appear to be such an
incredible challenge! The fact that muhammed and his followers are facing Jerusalem to pray proof the Jews and christians are worshipping the true God
And he wanted to deceive them to worship Allah , but the Jews and christians reject him.

You see , in the bible there is no place christians worship the way pagan do , infacte Jesus message teaches we should not show to much emphasis on religious ceremony (which the pagan do) soo your allegation against christians worshipping the same way pagan did was a lies from the pit of hell, bible never encourage such. When the children of isreal waited for Moses for so long and Moses did not show up, they loose patience , started worship the golden calf , it was Moses HIMSELF who destroyed this idols.

The bottomline!! Muhammed sanctioned the worshipping of pagan ritual in the quran and the hadith confirmed it , the black stone is a symbol of paganism,

Umar bin Al-Khattab was a pagan before his conversion to islam, here what this hadith say:

Sahih Bukhari, Volume 2, Book 26,
Number 675:
Narrated by Zaid bin Aslam: From his
father who said: “Umar bin Al-Khattab
addressed the Corner ( Black Stone)
saying, ‘By Allah! I know that you
are a stone and can neither benefit
nor harm. Had I not seen the
Prophet touching (and kissing) you,
I would never have touched (and
kissed) you.’ Then he kissed it.”

This is a very revealing statement coming from one who used to be a pagan. Umar’s conversion to monotheism was so absolute that he was able to make the above observation while his Prophet was actually venerating a pagan idol. The reason behind Umar’s reluctance in kissing the Black Stone is that the pagan Arabs also performed this same ritual. However, Umar venerated his Prophet and this eventually led him to venerate the pagan idol. Ultimately, he ended up
venerating the Black Stone, Muhammad
and Allah.[/s]

dolphinheart:
What does islam mean when it says something is a "symbol of allah" ?
When did it become a symbol?was it a symbol when the before hagar ran accross it seven times?
Why is it a symbol?

On ishmeals age issue
According to islam and their religious books , What was ishmaels age or age range as at the time he left with his mother?

Why did hagar leave with her son?

Who was the son abraham wanted to sacrifice, Isaac or Ishmael. ?
If its Ishmael, was he still a baby at that time?

On the cresent moon issue.
Does islam condemn the use of that symbol to represent islam? Is the use of that symbol Islamic?

I want or prefer a sincere , non abusive person to answer my questions.

Lastly , pls I need further explanation on how pagans misplaced/missed/changed/forgot the God they where serving with that ritual but did not actually misplace/miss/change/forget the process of that ritual.

truthman2012:


@Demmzy15

Trash!

Paste the answers to those questions here and let people see. Liar.

As for your Christianity and paganism, post it here backing your claim from Christian sources like I did for slam and not from non-Christian perspectives. I hereby challenge you to do it.

truthman2012:
.

Demmzy15:

Bros Rilwayne001 wallahi this guy is sooo dumb, he created threads about this nonsense and he was refuted to the core. https://www.nairaland.com/2408973/explanation-wanted

Even on plainbibletruth thread, he asked about the Kaaba and the black Stone and it was explained thoroughly for this lying hypocrite https://www.nairaland.com/2410291/which-son-did-god-ask/3

Malvisguy212 you made a point about Moses destroying the idols himself, didn't the Prophet Muhammad destroy the idols in the Kaaba too? Guy you're so dumb!!