Scholar8200:
The problem with these calvinists and neo-calvinists is that they indirectly tell us all the time Jesus and His Apostles told us to watch, they were pulling an April fool stunt! They hastily assume we mean we are saved by works!!! We are saved by faith but we are not kept against our will; we choose if we'll hold fast the faith to the end or not!

The main problem for Arminian proponents, is a strong Catholic background , which they are unable to shake off.

An2elect2:
Our brother in the Lord,Abduladino! where have you been!

My sister, i am good. Been busy of late. How are you doing?

vooks:

You are confused or acting hard to confuse.
There is not a remote probability that the verse was addressed to anybody other than believers. Would James go calling sinners his brethren?
If they are not saved then they are not brethren in the first place. So, why call them thus?
Ananias and Saphira were brethren. Who told you they were not?

Read this verse again
James 5:19-20 (ESV)
19 My brothers, if anyone among you wanders from the truth and someone brings him back, 20 let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from his wandering will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.

For somebody to wander from the truth they must have been in the truth in the first place. Sinners don't wander from the truth seeing they were never in it. So the subject here are believers AMONG THEM who strayed and risked death. Note too the death in question is that of a soul and not just the body.

I find this theory of yours of casting aspersions on believers' historical faith on the basis of their current action unreasonable. You for instance were you to fall away and start living in sin. Would we be justified in adjudging you as unsaved ab initio?

If we did, then it means all the present Christians just think they are Christians but the real ones we can only find out in future should they fall away

James addresses "my brothers" and says in verse 5:20, "he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins."

Although the verse is addressed to "brothers," i still maintain that not all among the brethren are necessarily saved. The fact that the brother had his soul saved from death and it covered a multitude of sins tells us that the "brother" was never saved in the first place. If he had been saved, his sin would have already been covered by faith in Jesus.

ABDULADINO:


James addresses "my brothers" and says in verse 5:20, "he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins."

Although the verse is addressed to "brothers," i still maintain that not all among the brethren are necessarily saved. The fact that the brother had his soul saved from death and it covered a multitude of sins tells us that the "brother" was never saved in the first place. If he had been saved, his sin would have already been covered by faith in Jesus.

That is how wearing Calvinist shades blind your eyes.
The brother WANDERS FROM THE TRUTH.
He must have been in the truth in the first place.

vooks:

That is how wearing Calvinist shades blind your eyes.
The brother WANDERS FROM THE TRUTH.
He must have been in the truth in the first place.

If he is in the truth in the first instance, he wouldn't have wandered from the truth.

They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us. (1 John 2:19)

ABDULADINO:
If he is in the truth in the first instance, he wouldn't have wandered from the truth.

They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us. (1 John 2:19)

Indeed, that's what John is saying!

ABDULADINO:
If he is in the truth in the first instance, he wouldn't have wandered from the truth.

They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us. (1 John 2:19)

The siliness is appalling
So was James out of his mind to tell us of the brother wandering from the truth?
Why does he tell us the brother wanders from something he never was in?

Let's look at your 'exposition' of 1 John 2:19
1. It means nobody can tell who is saved or not by their PRESENT behavior. You ABDULADINO may fall off tomorrow yet you have fantasies of being Elect. This contradicts 1John 3:7,8,10;2:3,4;Matthew 7:16,17
2. To say that the backslider was never saved is to say that a true Christian will ALWAYS obey God and never backslide

ABDULADINO:
My sister, i am good. Been busy of late. How are you doing?

Ok...Am doing fine dear brother.

ichuka:

Thanks sis.
Have been arround.

You welcome!

I seldom see you tho maybe i need glasses. Lol. Don't mind me i understand , just kidding.

Debunking the never-really-saved argument

This post attempts to put the Calvinistic “never really saved to begin with” view of apostasy to the test when reading select passages relevant to the topic of apostasy. The results speak for themselves.
“I am the vine, you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. If anyone does not remain in me he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. [proving that he was never in Christ to begin with, making it impossible to ‘remain’ in Him or be ‘cut off’ from Him] Jn. 15:3-6

“You will say then, ‘Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.’ Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.” [which would prove that you were never standing by faith to begin with, and that you were never grafted into the olive tree that you were cut off from?] Rom. 11:19-21

“Therefore dear friends…be on your guard so that you may not be carried away [from unbelief?] by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position.” [proving that you never were secure to begin with] 2 Pet. 3:17, 18
Matt. 18:21-35, [when the debt was credited back to the unmerciful servant’s account, it proved that he had never really been forgiven of the debt to begin with].

“Do not by your eating destroy your brother for whom Christ died” [thereby proving that Christ really never died for him, and that he was never really your brother]. Rom. 14:15

“Now brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.” [Oops! Paul should have said, “Otherwise, you never really believed in the first place”] 1 Cor. 15:1

“Those on the rock are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in time of testing they fall away.” [and prove that they never really believed in the first place] Luke 8:13

https://arminianperspectives./2008/10/16/never-really-saved-to-begin-with/

vooks:
Debunking the never-really-saved argument


https://arminianperspectives./2008/10/16/never-really-saved-to-begin-with/

Thank you!

Paul said the jews were broken off because of unbelief. And that gentiles believers standing by faith will be cut off also if they do not continue in God's goodness by faith.

Romans 11v20 - Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

v21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

v22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

Since it is because of unbelief someone is cut off from Christ, why is the warning of being cut off given to believers? Why would believers be warned of something that only befalls unbelievers?

Its clearly because it is very possible for a believer to become an unbeliever. A believer can depart from the faith and revert into unbelief.

Their argument would be those believers being warned were "never really believers" or were "never really saved".

But Paul already told them;

Rom 11v20 - ...thou standest by faith.

Can a "never really saved" believer ever be standing by faith? Or ever be joined to Christ? Or ever be a branch on His vine?

I've even heard some ridiculous interpretations, that everybody is joined to Christ; believers and unbelievers alike. Then unbelievers will eventually be cut off if they do not become believers.

But again, Paul already told them;

Rom 11v20 - ...thou standest by faith.

Meaning the people being addressed are those with faith already. Those already standing by faith. And for what its worth; you CAN'T even be joined to Christ without faith.

Clearly, the warning of being cut off from Christ through unbelief was given to believers; people presently standing by faith in Christ.

Proving that a believer can become an unbeliever by departing from the faith and reverting into unbelief. And such a person will be cut off from Christ.

There are many other examples of scriptures that debunk this "never really a believer or saved" mantra.

The Holy Spirit said that some shall depart from the faith. Can you depart from something you were never in or with? And can you depart from something and still be in or with that thing?

Clearly, to depart from the faith means you were once in the faith and you're no more in the faith.

And a "never really saved" person can never had been in the faith; because we are justified by faith (Rom 5v1) and saved by grace through faith (Eph 2v8)

So, to have been in the faith and now no more, means you were once justified and saved and now no more.

Unless they want to add to their list of heresis, and claim that you can depart from the faith but still keep the justification and salvation.

Thanks again vooks

God bless.

Ayoku777

Weep instead of laughing at the absurdities of this system called Calvinism

vooks:
Weep instead of laughing at the absurdities of this system called Calvinism

I was just browsing the scriptures not long ago. See the verse I stumbled upon; and I know it was the Holy Spirit that led me to it, because it is relevant to what we've been saying.

2Peter 1v10 -Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

The word translated "sure" there is the greek "bebaios" and it means "stedfast, firm, unmovable".

Question is, if our calling and election is unmovable, would there be any need to tell believers to "give diligence" to making their election sure (unmovable)?

If something cannot move, do you need to make it unmovable?

The Holy Spirit through the scriptures will not warn people to make something that cannot move unmovable. It is only something that can move you give diligence to making sure it doesn't move.

Clearly, its one thing to be elected and its another thing to stay elected. To stay elected, you need to keep the faith by which you accepted the calling and the election.

This scripture flushes down the drain the doctrine that it is impossible for the elect to be lost.

That one is elected is something one needs to be diligent to keep that way. Because the election is not unmovable (sure). We wouldn't need to make our election sure, if it is sure.

Shalom!

ayoku777:


I was just browsing the scriptures not long ago. See the verse I stumbled upon; and I know it was the Holy Spirit that led me to it, because it is relevant to what we've been saying.

2Peter 1v10 -Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

The word translated "sure" there is the greek "bebaios" and it means "stedfast, firm, unmovable".

Question is, if our calling and election is unmovable, would there be any need to tell believers to "give diligence" to making their election sure (unmovable)?

If something cannot move, do you need to make it unmovable?

The Holy Spirit through the scriptures will not warn people to make something that cannot move unmovable. It is only something that can move you give diligence to making sure it doesn't move.

Clearly, its one thing to be elected, its another thing to stay elected. To stay elected, you need to keep the faith by which you accepted the calling and the election.

This scripture flushes down the drain the doctrine that it is impossible for the elect to be lost.

That one is elected is something one needs to give diligence to keeping that way. Because the election is not unmovable (sure). We wouldn't need to make it sure if it is.

Shalom!

Your post clearly shows you have a false notion on election.
Who are the elects and what is election?
Start from there before telling us election is not sure.

5solas:
Your post clearly shows you have a false notion on election.
Who are the elects and what is election?
Start from there before telling us election is not sure.

The elect are those who have put their faith in Christ. And the election is the state of being an elect. The elect are those standing by faith in Christ; the same group of people Paul warned would be cut off if they do not continue in God's goodness.

Those are the the elect and election.

ayoku777:


The elect are those who have put their faith in Christ. And the election is the state of being an elect. The elect are those standing by faith in Christ; the same group of people Paul warned would be cut off if they do not continue in God's goodness.

Those are the the elect and election.

Please give the scriptures you have in mind concerning this.

ayoku777:


The elect are those who have put their faith in Christ. And the election is the state of being an elect. The elect are those standing by faith in Christ; the same group of people Paul warned would be cut off if they do not continue in God's goodness.

Those are the the elect and election.

This is your own definition of elect. Can we see the biblical one? And election requires an elector, who does the electing? and on what basis?

5solas:

Please give the scriptures you have in mind concerning this.

Scriptures concerning what? How that the elect are those who have put their faith in Christ?

Is Election not of grace? How else do you receive anything that is by grace? Is it not through faith in Christ?

Romans 11v5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Election is of grace. And grace is of what? Faith.

Romans 4v16 -Therefore IT IS OF FAITH, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed;

Romans 5v1 -By whom also we have access BY FAITH into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

Faith in Christ is the way anything that is of grace is accessed. Election is of grace, and grace is by faith. There is no other way to receive anything that is of grace except through faith in Christ.

So the elect are those who have received God's grace through faith in Christ.

Now let me ask you a question. Can we have an unelected believer? Can we have a believer in Christ who is not an elect?

Shalom!

Smhead. How can arminians without any fear of God twist scriptures to say something it never said? How do you know, a cunning teacher? He maliciously dodges all the passages that talk about a thing clearly and heed only to scriptures that can be ambiguous if not properly interpreted with others, manipulates it and gives it a meaning that fits what he thinks is right.

Election can also mean choice. Who chooses according to grace? Is it the sinner that elects himself or God? The arminians, who constitute the majority will have us belief man is the elector of himself and he does this by faith in the word of God. LOL. What Nonsense teaching is this when the bible is very clear that God elects according to His will. And this he had done from the foundation of the world. Why are some people so treacherous when it comes to sound doctrines. God is wiser.

Ephesians 1:4
Even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love.

When do people make choices. Is it not when they have more than one to choose from? Before the world began, God already chose people who will be holy and blameless in Him. Where we existing (except in the mind of God) when God chose? In time,will our supposed choices cancel God's own or confirm it?

2 Timothy 1:9
Who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not
because of our works but because of his own purpose
and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the
ages began,

If everything God is doing is for His own purpose and grace, how will you deny Him the election of His own people?


Ephesians 1:4-6
Even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved.

Arminians say, election is by grace according to our faith. The scripture says it is by grace according to the purpose of God's will. Who is lying?

2 Thessalonians 2:13
But we ought always to give thanks to God for you,
brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth.

Romans 9:15-18
For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I
have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

Yet again, God's will!

Whose will is it that a dead sinner be awakened. Arminians scream man's will but the bible makes it known that it is God's.

Ephesians 2:1-10
And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— ...



Paul was even clear

2 Timothy 2:10
Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

Election precedes salvation


John 15:16
You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you.

Why did He have to say that? men are always tempted to think their choice matter here! no it doesn't.

Mark 13:20
And if the Lord had not cut short the days, no human
being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect,
whom he chose, he shortened the days.


Remember, God does not want any of His elect to perish! And they would not perish!


Bad news for arminians, you cant change God's will.

Job 23:13
But he is unchangeable, and who can turn him back? What he desires, that he does.

An2elect2:

Bad news for arminians, you cant change God's will.

Job 23:13
But he is unchangeable, and who can turn him back? What he desires, that he does.

Let me ignore the junk you just posted and focus on this.
If you can't change God's will, then can we say that God willed for Satan to rebel?
And did God also will that some will perish?

2 Peter 3:9 (KJV)
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

So what happens to those who despite God not willing that they should perish, end up in hell?

Go and study the folly of determinism before making ignorant posts

vooks:

Let me ignore the junk you just posted and focus on this.
If you can't change God's will, then can we say that God willed for Satan to rebel?
And did God also will that some will perish?

I wouldn't say more than what the scripture has said concerning this matter. As you have seen from the passages i gave as examples: Some were chosen or elected in Christ before the foundation of the world to obtain mercy and grace in Him. We cannot debate this, unless you want to tear out all the scriptures that teach election, predestination and other doctrines of grace, then you might as well throw your bible away because they are littered in every book of the bible.

BTW, don't you think you should be wrestling with the scriptures not me? But i will advice you seek wisdom and understanding from God which will save you from the error of Arminus and other hirelings who teach false gospels

vooks:

2 Peter 3:9 (KJV)
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering [b]to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.[/b]

Who are these people Peter talked about? Are they not the elect of God who are yet to come to the knowledge of the truth? If God wills that all men without exception should come to repentance, wont every man born in this world be saved?

Did you miss this?
2 Timothy 2:10
Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. Paul was assured that there were people who are God's but have not come to know God. Paul here, expressed the will of God. It is God's will that those saved should endure suffering, persecution, affliction, discomfort for the elect who are not saved yet. God is not longsuffering towards the non elect, for He already knows their end from the beginning. Why chase something He is not going to need? Why seek when you already know they won't come and would perish anyway?

vooks:

So what happens to those who despite God not willing that they should perish, end up in hell?

They are the elect and they will not end up in hell. The scripture does not teach heresies like this.

vooks:

Go and study the folly of determinism before making ignorant posts

All my posts are scriptural. You should work on yours.

ayoku777:


I was just browsing the scriptures not long ago. See the verse I stumbled upon; and I know it was the Holy Spirit that led me to it, because it is relevant to what we've been saying.

2Peter 1v10 -Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

The word translated "sure" there is the greek "bebaios" and it means "stedfast, firm, unmovable".

Question is, if our calling and election is unmovable, would there be any need to tell believers to "give diligence" to making their election sure (unmovable)?

If something cannot move, do you need to make it unmovable?

To properly understand this verse you have to consider it with other verses of the Bible and also ask yourself some questions. Is the verse saying we do something to get us elected or keep us elected? The obvious answer is , no. The verse is an exhortation for believers to continue to live right. Right living is the mark of a believer , of one who is saved, who is elect. If after your believing you see the character traits of a believer, then you are a believer and an elect. This is what the verse is saying. So that if an unbeliever were in their midst deluding himself that he was saved, he had a way to check to see if he really was . It is for the same reason Paul said to examine oneself to see if one was truly in the faith. So we see that even a letter addressed to believers also tries to address the unbeliever that might be present with them.
When we give a message in church we also have a word for the unbeliever, sometimes indirectly .

The Holy Spirit through the scriptures will not warn people to make something that cannot move unmovable. It is only something that can move you give diligence to making sure it doesn't move.

Clearly, its one thing to be elected and its another thing to stay elected. To stay elected, you need to keep the faith by which you accepted the calling and the election.

This scripture flushes down the drain the doctrine that it is impossible for the elect to be lost.

That one is elected is something one needs to be diligent to keep that way. Because the election is not unmovable (sure). We wouldn't need to make our election sure, if it is sure.

Shalom!

Point already addressed.

ayoku777:


The elect are those who have put their faith in Christ. And the election is the state of being an elect. The elect are those standing by faith in Christ; the same group of people Paul warned would be cut off if they do not continue in God's goodness.

Those are the the elect and election.

The elects are those who were chosen for salvation before the foundation of the world. Yes, even before the fall, they are those whom God chose to save. Scriptures regarding them are endless. That is why Christ would call such, '' my sheep''.

An2elect2:
Smhead. How can arminians without any fear of God twist scriptures to say something it never said? How do you know, a cunning teacher? He maliciously dodges all the passages that talk about a thing clearly and heed only to scriptures that can be ambiguous if not properly interpreted with others, manipulates it and gives it a meaning that fits what he thinks is right.

Election can also mean choice. Who chooses according to grace? Is it the sinner that elects himself or God? The arminians, who constitute the majority will have us belief man is the elector of himself and he does this by faith in the word of God. LOL. What Nonsense teaching is this when the bible is very clear that God elects according to His will. And this he had done from the foundation of the world. Why are some people so treacherous when it comes to sound doctrines. God is wiser.

Ephesians 1:4
Even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love.

When do people make choices. Is it not when they have more than one to choose from? Before the world began, God already chose people who will be holy and blameless in Him. Where we existing (except in the mind of God) when God chose? In time,will our supposed choices cancel God's own or confirm it?

2 Timothy 1:9
Who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not
because of our works but because of his own purpose
and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the
ages began,

If everything God is doing is for His own purpose and grace, how will you deny Him the election of His own people?


Ephesians 1:4-6
Even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved.

Arminians say, election is by grace according to our faith. The scripture says it is by grace according to the purpose of God's will. Who is lying?

2 Thessalonians 2:13
But we ought always to give thanks to God for you,
brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth.

Romans 9:15-18
For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I
have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

Yet again, God's will!

Whose will is it that a dead sinner be awakened. Arminians scream man's will but the bible makes it known that it is God's.

Ephesians 2:1-10
And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— ...



Paul was even clear

2 Timothy 2:10
Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

Election precedes salvation


John 15:16
You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you.

Why did He have to say that? men are always tempted to think their choices matter here! no it doesn't.

Mark 13:20
And if the Lord had not cut short the days, no human
being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect,
whom he chose, he shortened the days.


Remember, God does not want any of His elect to perish! And they would not perish!


Bad news for arminians, you cant change God's will.

Job 23:13
But he is unchangeable, and who can turn him back? What he desires, that he does.

Thanks so much for this excellent submission.

vooks:

Let me ignore the junk you just posted and focus on this.

It shows you just can't see.

If you can't change God's will, then can we say that God willed for Satan to rebel?
And did God also will that some will perish?

Look at this man o
So you think you can change His will?

2 Peter 3:9 (KJV)
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

1. So what happens to those who despite God not willing that they should perish, end up in hell?

2. Go and study the folly of determinism before making ignorant posts

1. Please tell us , since even with your Arminian viewpoint , some still perish.

2. Please enlighten us.

@Ayoku777
Concerning election and the elects, consider the passage below:
John 17

1 ¶ These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
6 ¶ I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.
7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.
8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.
9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.
11 ¶ And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
13 And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves.
14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
17 ¶ Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
20 ¶ Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
24 ¶ Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.
25 O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me.
26 And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.

@Ayoku777
Concerning election and the elects, also consider the passage below:
John 10

1 ¶ Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.
2 But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.
3 To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.
4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.
5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.
6 This parable spake Jesus unto them: but they understood not what things they were which he spake unto them.
7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.
8 All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.
9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.
10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.
11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.
12 But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep.
13 The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep.
14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.
18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.
19 ¶ There was a division therefore again among the Jews for these sayings.
20 And many of them said, He hath a devil, and is mad; why hear ye him?
21 Others said, These are not the words of him that hath a devil. Can a devil open the eyes of the blind?
22 ¶ And it was at Jerusalem the feast of the dedication, and it was winter.
23 And Jesus walked in the temple in Solomon's porch.
24 Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.
25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

5solas:
To properly understand this verse you have to consider it with other verses of the Bible and also ask yourself some questions. Is the verse saying we do something to get us elected or keep us elected? The obvious answer is , no. The verse is an exhortation for believers to continue to live right. Right living is the mark of a believer , of one who is saved, who is elect. If after your believing you see the character traits of a believer, then you are a believer and an elect. This is what the verse is saying. So that if an unbeliever were in their midst deluding himself that he was saved, he had a way to check to see if he really was . It is for the same reason Paul said to examine oneself to see if one was truly in the faith. So we see that even a letter addressed to believers also tries to address the unbeliever that might be present with them. When we give a message in church we also have a word for the unbeliever, sometimes indirectly.

Nice try but you missed it again.

The people Paul warned about being cut off if they did not continue in God's goodness are people already standing by faith. These are not people deluding themselves to be believers. These are believers!

Read it again;

Romans 11v20 -20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

An unbelieving church-goer who is deluding himself to be saved; is he standing by faith? Has he been engrafted into Christ? And does he have the life of the vine in him? Absolutely not! He is not standing by faith, he is not engrafted into Christ; and he does not have the life of the vine.

Unbelievers and pretenders are not standing by faith. Someone not grafted into Christ cannot be warned of being cut off. The people Paul warned about being cut off, are believers in Christ, who are engrafted into Christ and are standing by faith.

See the verses in full;

Romans 11v20 -Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

v21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

v22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

Who are the "thee" that God shall not spare, and the "thou" that shall also be cut off, if they don't continue in God's goodness by keeping the faith? It is clearly those "thou" that are "standing by faith". The warning was obviously addressed to believers.

And why would a believer be warned about being cut off from Christ as an unbeliever?

It is because a believer can depart from the faith and revert into unbelief. Simple!

And also this verse that you've all being tip-toeing around, trying to give a meaning other than the obvious; also proves that a believer can revert into unbelief.

1Tim 4v1 -Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

These people that the Holy Spirit told Paul would depart from the faith are not unbelievers deluding themselves. These are believers!

I can't depart from America, because I was never in America. I can only depart from where I was or had been.

Only someone in the faith can depart from the faith. Not someone pretending to be a believer or pretending to be in the faith.

There are athiests that go to church, sing, dance and maybe even take communion. If he later stops going to church, did he depart from the faith? NO!

He didn't depart from the faith because he wasn't in the faith. He departed from church not from faith in Christ.

There are many muslims that attend Reinhard Bonnke's crusade. They don't believe in Jesus as the Messiah and the Son of God. They just came because they heard miracles are happening.

If that muslim leaves, did he depart from the faith? NO again! He was never in the faith.

You can't depart from the faith unless you were in the faith. And you can't depart from the faith and still remain in the faith.

Only someone who once truly had faith in Christ and no longer does can be said to have departed from the faith.

So clearly the people Paul warned about being cut off, and the ones the Holy Spirit said would depart from the faith; are believers in Christ who will not keep the faith. These are not unbelievers who were never in the faith or standing by faith, but just deluding themselves. These are believers in Christ.

A believer can depart from the faith! And the Holy Spirit said some will depart from the faith!

Shalom!

5solas:
The elects are those who were chosen for salvation before the foundation of the world. Yes, even before the fall, they are those whom God chose to save. Scriptures regarding them are endless. That is why Christ would call such, '' my sheep''.

Now to your claim that God only chose to save some.

There is no one that is not on God's "To save" list.

See this;

2Peter 2v9 -The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that ANY should perish, but that ALL should come to repentance.

It said God does not want ANYONE to perish, but for ALL to come to repentance. Does this verse remotely suggest that there are some people God does not want saved?

See this verse too;

1Tim 2v3-4 -For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

How many people does this verse say God wants saved? ALL MEN! God wants ALL MEN to be saved!

Does this verse even require any further breaking down to show you that there is no one who is not on God's "To save" list?

See this verse too;

Ezekiel 33v11 - As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live:

See that? God almost swore on His life here; that as surely as He lives He doesn't desire the death of any sinner, but that they should all turn (repent) and live (be saved).

So unless you want to say God lied under oath, this scripture shows that repentance and salvation is His desire and heartbeat for ALL MEN -not a select few.

See this verse too;

Titus 2v11 - For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to ALL MEN,

How many people did the grace of God unto salvation appear unto? ALL MEN! And you said God desired only the salvation of some not all. When He extended the grace that brings salvation to all men.

See this verse too;

1John 2v2 -And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD.

See that? Did Jesus propitiate (atone and appease God) for only the sins of a select few? NO! Jesus atoned and appeased the Father on behalf of, and for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD.

God is not a tease; He won't pay for your ticket, if He doesn't want you on board. Jesus atoned for the sins of the whole world because everyone is on His "To save" list.

See this verse too;

2Cor 5v19 -To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling THE WORLD unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

See that? When Jesus hung on that cross, how many people was God reconciling unto Himself? Only a few or the whole world? Scripture says the WORLD.

The death of Christ was for the reconciliation of the entire world to God. No one is intended of Christ to remain estranged to the Father after His death. His suffering was for the reconciliation of the whole world to God.

I can bring up more verses. But if all these verses still roll off your back with indifference to the fact that God wants ALL MEN SAVED AND RECONCILED to Him; then more scriptures won't make any difference.

Everyone who is not born again or saved after hearing the gospel is unsaved because he chose to reject God's offer of salvation -its not become God doesn't want to save such a person.

And here are scriptures that's show that God's offer of grace and invitation unto salvation can be rejected by man.

John 1v5 -He (Jesus) came unto his own, and his own received him not.

Luke 13v34 -O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not (ye refused)!

Romans 10v21 -But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

Acts 7v51 -Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

Acts 13v46 -Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.

All these scriptures show that God's invitation can be rejected, His offer can be turned down; and His call unto salvation or service can be rescinded by man.

God's will is not always done; and it is not always imposed over man's freewill or right of choice to accept or reject the call.

Those who perish, perish because they chose to reject God's offer of salvation. Not because God didn't want to save them.

Shalom.

5solas:

It shows you just can't see.

Look at this man o
So you think you can change His will?


1. Please tell us , since even with your Arminian viewpoint , some still perish.

2. Please enlighten us.

God's sovereignty allows for human will.
God's gift to mankind is Calvary. If you reject that, you are damned.

God's will is not cast in steel is the point

ayoku777:


Nice try but you missed it again.

The people Paul warned about being cut off if they did not continue in God's goodness are people already standing by faith. These are not people deluding themselves to be believers. These are believers!

He was addressing believers. What you don't know and grant is what I am trying to bring to your understanding. He knew they were saved! He had laboured all through the epistle to tell them so. He knew that with their knew nature they would not work after the flesh but after the Spirit. But what if they was a person, just one, that wasn't in faith? Such a one not having the Spirit could live after the flesh and still feel he was saved. The verse is for such a one. And for your information wherever you see such admonition, that is the purpose. You may call such verses Antinomian checks. In most of the epistles you will always see Pelagian checks and Antinomian checks. The balanced believer is mindful of both. The Pelagian checks are more and tell us not to put our hopes on going to Heaven on ourselves, sadly, you don't even see them.

Read it again;

Romans 11v20 -20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

An unbelieving church-goer who is deluding himself to be saved; is he standing by faith? Has he been engrafted into Christ? And does he have the life of the vine in him? Absolutely not! He is not standing by faith, he is not engrafted into Christ; and he does not have the life of the vine.

Unbelievers and pretenders are not standing by faith. Someone not grafted into Christ cannot be warned of being cut off. The people Paul warned about being cut off, are believers in Christ, who are engrafted into Christ and are standing by faith.

See the verses in full;

Romans 11v20 -Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

v21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

v22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

Who are the "thee" that God shall not spare, and the "thou" that shall also be cut off, if they don't continue in God's goodness by keeping the faith? It is clearly those "thou" that are "standing by faith". The warning was obviously addressed to believers.

And why would a believer be warned about being cut off from Christ as an unbeliever?

It is because a believer can depart from the faith and revert into unbelief. Simple!

I don't have to read it again! He was speaking to believers in the main! But perchance there was an unbeliever present, this was applicable to him! And for what reason would they be cut off? If they did not continue in His (God's) goodness! What did that mean? If they did not continue in those things which accompany salvation. If they did not do good works!

Do you see were we are at now?

What you and your ilks have been saying is that salvation can be lost by non-performance of good works. In short, that good works saves.

And also this verse that you've all being tip-toeing around, trying to give a meaning other than the obvious; also proves that a believer can revert into unbelief.

1Tim 4v1 -Now [b] the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

These people that the Holy Spirit told Paul would depart from the faith are not unbelievers deluding themselves. These are believers!

I can't depart from America, because I was never in America. I can only depart from where I was or had been.

Only someone in the faith can depart from the faith. Not someone pretending to be a believer or pretending to be in the faith.

There are athiests that go to church, sing, dance and maybe even take communion. If he later stops going to church, did he depart from the faith? NO!

He didn't depart from the faith because he wasn't in the faith. He departed from church not from faith in Christ.

There are many muslims that attend Reinhard Bonnke's crusade. They don't believe in Jesus as the Messiah and the Son of God. They just came because they heard miracles are happening.

If that muslim leaves, did he depart from the faith? NO again! He was never in the faith.

You can't depart from the faith unless you were in the faith. And you can't depart from the faith and still remain in the faith.

Only someone who once truly had faith in Christ and no longer does can be said to have departed from the faith.

So clearly the people Paul warned about being cut off, and the ones the Holy Spirit said would depart from the faith; are believers in Christ who will not keep the faith. These are not unbelievers who were never in the faith or standing by faith, but just deluding themselves. These are believers in Christ.

A believer can depart from the faith! And the Holy Spirit said some will depart from the faith!

Shalom!

The reason I have given above is sufficient for this also, but to add to it, your ilks would not even distinguish if the muslim was in church or in faith, all you will be quick to say is that he has lost his salvation. Is they a departure from the faith that does not involve evil works? Once again I tell you that your striving is about works. You are advocating good works and continuance in good works for salvation. It is that simple.

vooks:


God's sovereignty allows for human will.

Spoken as if it was in contention!

God's gift to mankind is Calvary. If you reject that, you are damned.

Is this in contention?

God's will is not cast in steel is the point

Man's will does not overrule God's.
The tail does not wag the dog, the dog wags its tail! Always!

5solas:
He was addressing believers. What you don't know and grant is what I am trying to bring to your understanding. He knew they were saved! He had laboured all through the epistle to tell them so. He knew that with their knew nature they would not work after the flesh but after the Spirit. But what if they was a person, just one, that wasn't in faith? Such a one not having the Spirit could live after the flesh and still feel he was saved. The verse is for such a one. And for your information wherever you see such admonition, that is the purpose. You may call such verses Antinomian checks. In most of the epistles you will always see Pelagian checks and Antinomian checks. The balanced believer is mindful of both. The Pelagian checks are more and tell us not to put our hopes on going to Heaven on ourselves, sadly, you don't even see them.

Oh please, come on, enough with the "what ifs" and "antinomian checks". Someone that is not grafted into Christ cannot be warned of being cut off.

If Paul was talking to pretentious unbelievers; he would warn them to check themselves if they were truly grafted into Christ, if they truly believe in Him. He would not warn them of being cut off. You can't cut off what was never grafted; and unbelievers were never grafted.

Don't insult my intelligence, this is not rocket science. Pretentious, self-deluding unbelievers are not standing by faith and were never grafted into Christ; so the warning of being cut off does not and cannot apply to them.

The warning of being cut off can only apply to those who are really grafted into Christ -which can only refer to real believers.

Unbelievers cannot be cut off from Christ because they were never grafted into Him. Paul knows this, the scripture knows this, and the Holy Spirit that inspired both Paul and the scripture knows it. So the warning applies to only believers.

Believers are the only ones grafted into the Christ, so the warning of being cut off can apply only to them.

No need for "what ifs" or "antinomian checks" or "pelagian checks" to understand this simple truth. You can't warn those who were never grafted about being cut off. Only believers can be cut off, because only believers are ever grafted.

5solas:

I don't have to read it again! He was speaking to believers in the main! But perchance there was an unbeliever present, this was applicable to him! And for what reason would they be cut off? If they did not continue in His (God's) goodness! What did that mean? If they did not continue in those things which accompany salvation. If they did not do good works!

Do you see were we are at now?

What you and your ilks have been saying is that salvation can be lost by non-performance of good works. In short, that good works saves.

You obviously don't know me. So don't even presume you do.

I don't believe and I've never preached that salvation can be lost by works. You can't lose your salvation to fornication or stealing or lies or to any such thing. Salvation can only be lost through unbelief; by departing from the faith and reverting into unbelief.

The fornicator brother in 1Cor 5, sleeping with his stepmom; Paul said they should deliver him into the hands of satan, for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit might be saved.

You can't deliver someone into the hands of satan if he is already in his hands. Meaning that the unrepentant fornicator brother with all his in.cest is still in the hands of Christ.

And infact it is his body that is being delivered into the hands of satan for buffeting and destruction if he doesn't repent. His soul and spirit still remains in the hands of Christ.

This proves that salvation is not lost by sin or by carnality. It is lost only by unbelief, by departing from the faith in Christ.

A carnal christian is called a "babe in Christ", meaning he is still "in Christ". So carnality does not cost believers their salvation; even though it will cost them reward and greatness. Every sin is unto spiritual demotion but only unbelief is unto spiritual death.

Only believers who depart from the faith lose their salvation and are cut off from Christ, not those who commit sins or are carnal. So no one is preaching works here.

How do we receive God's goodness? By putting our faith in Christ. And how do we continue in God's goodness? By keeping the faith by which we received His goodness; by not departing from faith in Christ and reverting into unbelief.

To continue in God's goodness is to keep the faith in Christ by which you received the goodness. It is not by doing good works. Also, to not continue in God's goodness, is not by doing evil works; it is by not keeping the faith, it is by departing from the faith. And believers who don't keep the faith but revert into unbelief will be cut off.

No one is saying salvation is gained or lost by works. Salvation is received through faith and only lost by departing from the faith. And a believer can depart from the faith according to the Holy Spirit.

5solas:
The reason I have given above is sufficient for this also, but to add to it, your ilks would not even distinguish if the muslim was in church or in faith, all you will be quick to say is that he has lost his salvation. Is they a departure from the faith that does not involve evil works? Once again I tell you that your striving is about works. You are advocating good works and continuance in good works for salvation. It is that simple.

How is it any of my business to know who is in the faith and who is not in the faith? Are my the Holy Spirit? My judgment doesn't count, because I don't know men's heart.

But the Holy Spirit who knows men's heart, says some people in the faith will depart from the faith in the last days.

That's it! I'm using what the Holy Spirit said to establish doctrine. He didn't say some believers will become fornicators and thiefs. No! He said some believers will become unbelievers.

He said some people who believe in Christ will depart from the faith and revert into unbelief.

The Spirit wasn't talking about evil works here; He wasn't talking about a believer becoming a carnal christian. He was talking about a believer becoming an unbeliever. About someone in the faith reverting into unbelief in Christ.

No one is preaching that salvation is gained or lost by any good works or evil works respectively. But that salvation is received by faith in Christ, and lost by departure from faith in Christ.

And not only can that happen; the Holy Spirit said it will happen!

Shalom!