@ABDULADINO, my brother u get time to still dey argue with these people? They will never agree with you, so don't bother. Since you have known the Truth, don't bother yourself with dem. My happiness is that they are Believers, so they will make Heaven on the last day. But since they believe its their WORKS dat saves them until Rapture, so be it Don't stress yourself. They will understand later.

If its by WORKS that we are SAVED or that we can lose our Salvation after being SAVED, then mankind will be doomed cos nobody will make it. It is by the GRACE of God through faith. God chose us the elect from Eternity past and it is Him dat preserves us till the end. It will be hard for Human Comprehension but everything will be clear when we cross over to Eternity.

God promised us Eternal life through salvation and for that Eternal life to be lost will make God a liar, which is not possible. So a Believer can never lose His Salvation.

I now declare this thread closed.....

jiggaz:
@ABDULADINO, my brother u get time to still dey argue with these people? They will never agree with you, so don't bother. Since you have known the Truth, don't bother yourself with dem. My happiness is that they are Believers, so they will make Heaven on the last day. But since they believe its their WORKS dat saves them until Rapture, so be it Don't stress yourself. They will understand later.

If its by WORKS that we are SAVED or that we can lose our Salvation after being SAVED, then mankind will be doomed cos nobody will make it. It is by the GRACE of God through faith. God chose us the elect from Eternity past and it is Him dat preserves us till the end. It will be hard for Human Comprehension but everything will be clear when we cross over to Eternity.

God promised us Eternal life through salvation and for that Eternal life to be lost will make God a liar, which is not possible. So a Believer can never lose His Salvation.

I now declare this thread closed.....

Ok bro..Bless you. I rest my case too..I guess it is difficult to convince skeptics. It is like convincing cessationist that the gift of tongues is still relevant today. I get you.

jiggaz:
@ABDULADINO, my brother u get time to still dey argue with these people? They will never agree with you, so don't bother. Since you have known the Truth, don't bother yourself with dem. My happiness is that they are Believers, so they will make Heaven on the last day. But since they believe its their WORKS dat saves them until Rapture, so be it Don't stress yourself. They will understand later.

If its by WORKS that we are SAVED or that we can lose our Salvation after being SAVED, then mankind will be doomed cos nobody will make it. It is by the GRACE of God through faith. God chose us the elect from Eternity past and it is Him dat preserves us till the end. It will be hard for Human Comprehension but everything will be clear when we cross over to Eternity.

God promised us Eternal life through salvation and for that Eternal life to be lost will make God a liar, which is not possible. So a Believer can never lose His Salvation.

I now declare this thread closed.....

You make God a liar for denying the very words of our savior. I really pity the deluded who think after a historical confession, imagine their eternity is sealed regardless of how they live.

Jesus will spit you out of your mouth, he will blot you out of the book of life, and worse, He will tell you to depart from him on the llast day.

Salvation is simply new life conditional on your faith. You drop your faith and you die again. Be warned.

I don't want to be comforted by false hopes

An2elect2:


None of the sheep of Christ will be lost. God cannot lie.

vooks is a trouble maker, i am used to his posts.

Sometimes i think regeneration goes a long way in helping us understand sound biblical truths.

All i see here, are proud men who want to have a sense of control in 'their salvation'. They are okay with another Jesus that only makes man savable and not THE ONE that has come to save men who are dead in trespasses.

The dead in their trespasses can still sin, and they can hear Jesus voice.

John 5:25 King James Version (KJV)
25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

jiggaz:
Are we still on this? Nawa oo....

Ok lemme say dis... SALVATION once gained can never be lost. You don't lose your Salvation because you sin.... Datz why Paul still addressed the Church of Corinth ( the most carnal church ) as the bride of CHRIST.

There are different levels of commitment among Believers... We have mature and baby Christians. A carnal Christian doesn't lose his Salvation cos he sin. Our Salvation is eternal, its sealed by the Holy Spirit until Rapture. It is only lost by denouncing CHRIST which is impossible, its very rare. Some Christians might not be as committed as they were before, but that doesn't mean they have lost faith in CHRIST. Some people might say these Christians have back-slidden but their faith in CHRIST is still there.

@An2elect2 , my sister i think you don't have to argue with @Vook again. Two of you will never agree. You are a GRACE Believer like me and he is a WORKS believer. If he believes its his Works dat saves him, all well and good. Let Him keep to his belief. On the last day He will know the Truth. GRACE is the person of Jesus.

What is the meaning of GRACE? UNMERITED FAVOUR...

Plz lets stop this argument..... the WORKS Believers will never accept our message of GRACE... and we cant accept theirs too.

Nobody is saved by works.
The merits of the cross, the grace of God are appropriated by faith and repentance. Faith and repentance from dead works is not work but condition for accessing this grace.

Listen,
Your concept of grace is confused.
If Jesus died and saved some as a result, then even the very preaching of the cross is unnecessary. Why do they need to hear the gospel?

Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. God does not magically deliver sinners from hellfire, they MUST hear the Word,and after hearing, they MUST believe. So salvation is conditional on these.

And after believing, they MUST remain in Christ. Your salvation is conditional to your living faith.

ABDULADINO:
Lol@ all these irrelevant long epistles. Who saves from SIN? Man or God? There is no middle ground here.

God saves those who want to be saved. Salvation is purely of God but it is a gift conditional on your acceptance.

Isaiah 65:2 King James Version (KJV)
2 I have spread out my hands all the day unto a rebellious people, which walketh in a way that was not good, after their own thoughts;

Hebrews 3:7-8 King James Version (KJV)

7 Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,
8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:

Jesus did not die for a select lucky fellas like you imagine, He died for the WHOLE WORLD. His blood is available for ALL who believe. Claiming that Jesus died for a few is foolish and blasphemous. It charges God with sadism and recklessness.

John 3:16 is clear; the cross is an opportunity for ALL to be reconciled back to God.

Some amateur theoreticians need to brush up their understanding of ELECTION and PREDESTINATION. By God's grace I will share on these two later in the day

vooks:

God saves those who want to be saved. Salvation is purely of God but it is a gift conditional on your acceptance.

Isaiah 65:2 King James Version (KJV)
2 I have spread out my hands all the day unto a rebellious people, which walketh in a way that was not good, after their own thoughts;

Hebrews 3:7-8 King James Version (KJV)

7 Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,
8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:

Jesus did not die for a select lucky fellas like you imagine, He died for the WHOLE WORLD. His blood is available for ALL who believe. Claiming that Jesus died for a few is foolish and blasphemous. It charges God with sadism and recklessness.

John 3:16 is clear; the cross is an opportunity for ALL to be reconciled back to God.

We can argue all we want but it won't change a thing. I had never said Jesus died for a few. I wonder where you got that concept from. Paul by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit said the gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; but Israel who pursued a law of righteousness has not attained it. Why Not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works.( Romans 9:30-32).

And this is exactly what you are advancing here as if it is by do's and don'ts we can keep our salvation, remember Paul warnings to the gentile church in Galatia.." Dis you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard? Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort? (Gal 3:2b-3)...

So you see it is with the help of the Holy Spirit that man can live a rigtheous life with zeal for without Him we can do nothing. It is important to note that man has absolutely no part in salvation. If he has Israel would have been saved..."For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another.But God found fault with the people.( Heb 8:7-8a).

And concerning election i really do wonder why you could evade clear scriptures that says before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad- in order that God purpose in election might stand, not by works but by him who calls-she was told the older will serve the younger..just as it is written Jacob i loved, but Esau i hated....so God hardens who he wants to harden and have mercy on whom he wants to have mercy...( Romans 9)..Maybe you can call sadistic and reckless here because we are not the ones who wrote these scriptures... Israel has indeed experienced a hardening in part until THE FULL NUMBER OF GENTILES has come in and so all israel will be saved... So God is fully aware of the people that will be saved, to call Him a sadist is your cup of tea..If he is not aware of the numbers he wouldn't have quoted an exact figure of 144,000 sealed tribe in Israel in revelation.

It is not of him who wills or runs but it is God that shows mercy.

Truth be told you don't mix law with grace, when you sought to establish your own righteousness, thinking it will save you then you will receive the shock of your life when Jesus comes....Shalom.

ABDULADINO:
[size=3pt]We can argue all we want but it won't change a thing. I had never said Jesus died for a few. I wonder where you got that concept from. Paul by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit said the gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; but Israel who pursued a law of righteousness has not attained it. Why Not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works.( Romans 9:30-32).

And this is exactly what you are advancing here as if it is by do's and don'ts we can keep our salvation, remember Paul warnings to the gentile church in Galatia.." Dis you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard? Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort? (Gal 3:2b-3)...

So you see it is with the help of the Holy Spirit that man can live a rigtheous life with zeal for without Him we can do nothing. It is important to note that man has absolutely no part in salvation. If he has Israel would have been saved..."For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another.But God found fault with the people.( Heb 8:7-8a).

And concerning election i really do wonder why you could evade clear scriptures that says before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad- in order that God purpose in election might stand, not by works but by him who calls-she was told the older will serve the younger..just as it is written Jacob i loved, but Esau i hated....so God hardens who he wants to harden and have mercy on whom he wants to have mercy...( Romans 9)..Maybe you can call sadistic and reckless here because we are not the ones who wrote these scriptures... Israel has indeed experienced a hardening in part until THE FULL NUMBER OF GENTILES has come in and so all israel will be saved... So God is fully aware of the people that will be saved, to call Him a sadist is your cup of tea..If he is not aware of the numbers he wouldn't have quoted an exact figure of 144,000 sealed tribe in Israel in revelation.

It is not of him who wills or runs but it is God that shows mercy.

Truth be told you don't mix law with grace, when you sought to establish your own righteousness, thinking it will save you then you will receive the shock of your life when Jesus comes....Shalom.[/size]

Ayoku777 asked a simple question;
DID JESUS DIE FOR ALL MEN?
Or did God ever have a plan for saving all men?

vooks:

You make God a liar for denying the very words of our savior. I really pity the deluded who think after a historical confession, imagine their eternity is sealed regardless of how they live.
Jesus will spit you out of your mouth, he will blot you out of the book of life, and worse, He will tell you to depart from him on the llast day.
Salvation is simply new life conditional on your faith. You drop your faith and you die again. Be warned.
I don't want to be comforted by false hopes

It is you that Jesus will spit out of his mouth!!!! You this deluded self righteous Pharisee!!!! What gives u the right to know who will make Heaven or not?? Look lemme tell you, if not for the GRACE of God, this your self righteousness ( which is a filthy rag before God ) will not take you anywhere. It is written in the Bible that Salvation is by Grace through faith, and it is the work of God lest any man should boast.

I pity you, so you think that The death of CHRIST on the Cross is not enough so you can add your filthy Self Righteousness to make up for your Salvation? God calls it PRIDE!!!! Abraham was counted as a man of righteousness because of his FAITH in God alone, not by his WORKS.

If you are not comforted by Eternal Security, plz go ahead with your WORKS but don't try to deceive other people into it. That's why your kind live depressed lives full of condemnation and guilt , that is your own wahala. I have comfort that my righteousness is the righteousness of CHRIST by FAITH. Nobody can snatch me out of the hand of the father & son, not you or your Religious / Judaism doctrine......

You can argue with the Birds, i am through with you. And please don't quote me AGAIN!!!!!

ABDULADINO:
Ok bro..Bless you. I rest my case too..I guess it is difficult to convince skeptics. It is like convincing cessationist that the gift of tongues is still relevant today. I get you.

Alright

vooks:


Ayoku777 asked a simple question;
DID JESUS DIE FOR ALL MEN?
Or did God ever have a plan for saving all men?

I never saw this question in my mentions..ofcos Jesus died for mankind not a select few.

ABDULADINO:
I never saw this question in my mentions..ofcos Jesus died for mankind not a select few.

Thank you sir
He died....
1.For all (1 Tim. 2:6; Isa. 53:6).
2. For every man (Heb. 2:9).
3. For the world (John 3:16).
4. For the sins of the whole world (1 John 2:2).
5. For the ungodly (Rom. 5:6).
6. For false teachers (2 Peter 2:1).
7. For many (Matt. 20:28).
8. For Israel (John 11:50–51).
9. For the Church (Eph. 5:25).
10. For "me" (Gal. 2:20).

Do you understand how contradictory it sounds to believe He died for all mankind but only a few elite believers, the Elect really appropriate His grace?

Jesus avails His blood for everyone but then goes ahead and marks a few to be its beneficiaries while the majority are totally incapable of accessing its merits?

If the majority are incapable of accessing the merits of Christ sacrifice, then the sacrifice is irrelevant and a mockery to them. God taunts sinners with an inaccessible means of salvation. All these verses I have shared above must be radically reinterpreted and twisted beyond recognition.

That is Calvinism for you. This theory in short reduces man into a spectator and a puppet with God pulling all the strings as far as salvation is concerned.

The only reason why many will end up in hell despite Christ dying for them is because they have REJECTED the gift of salvation. God's will is that nobody may perish, but they will perish. That is because His will is not exactly decrees but subject to His own creatures' freewill.

And this is why we keep on telling you man can and has rejected the offer of salvation.
Man can only reject this offer if he has real freedom of choice

But if God controls the entire salvation process without any responsibility from man, then man had no freedom of choice. God saves men against or in spite of their will while condemning others against/inspire of their will.

And to wrap it up, if man can't lose their salvation because it is God's work, then God is responsible for sending dozens to hell because He refuses to work salvation in them. So Jesus dies for all mankind, but then God LIMITS access to Calvary to all but a few.

I know you will retort that God is not obliged to save anybody, to which I will ask, why then did Jesus die for ALL? Jesus could only die for all if God wills to save all

So once again, DID JESUS DIE FOR ALL?

vooks:


The dead in their trespasses can still sin, and they can hear Jesus voice.

Your penchant for irrelevancies is legendary! Is someone arguing with you if they can still sin or otherwise?

John 5:25 King James Version (KJV)
25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

Are the dead here not qualified by Christ?


Did Christ say all shall hear and all shall live?
Why strive to no purpose?
It is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.

vooks:

Thank you sir
He died....
1.For all (1 Tim. 2:6; Isa. 53:6).
2. For every man (Heb. 2:9).
3. For the world (John 3:16).
4. For the sins of the whole world (1 John 2:2).
5. For the ungodly (Rom. 5:6).
6. For false teachers (2 Peter 2:1).
7. For many (Matt. 20:28).
8. For Israel (John 11:50–51).
9. For the Church (Eph. 5:25).
10. For "me" (Gal. 2:20).

Do you understand how contradictory it sounds to believe He died for all mankind but only a few elite believers, the Elect really appropriate His grace?

Jesus avails His blood for everyone but then goes ahead and marks a few to be its beneficiaries while the majority are totally incapable of accessing its merits?

If the majority are incapable of accessing the merits of Christ sacrifice, then the sacrifice is irrelevant and a mockery to them. God taunts sinners with an inaccessible means of salvation. All these verses I have shared above must be radically reinterpreted and twisted beyond recognition.

That is Calvinism for you. This theory in short reduces man into a spectator and a puppet with God pulling all the strings as far as salvation is concerned.

The only reason why many will end up in hell despite Christ dying for them is because they have REJECTED the gift of salvation. God's will is that nobody may perish, but they will perish. That is because His will is not exactly decrees but subject to His own creatures' freewill.

And this is why we keep on telling you man can and has rejected the offer of salvation.
Man can only reject this offer if he has real freedom of choice

But if God controls the entire salvation process without any responsibility from man, then man had no freedom of choice. God saves men against or in spite of their will while condemning others against/inspire of their will.

And to wrap it up, if man can't lose their salvation because it is God's work, then God is responsible for sending dozens to hell because He refuses to work salvation in them. So Jesus dies for all mankind, but then God LIMITS access to Calvary to all but a few.

I know you will retort that God is not obliged to save anybody, to which I will ask, why then did Jesus die for ALL? Jesus could only die for all if God wills to save all

So once again, DID JESUS DIE FOR ALL?

Read Eph 1:4..God chose Israel from among the nation to be the channel through which He will bring salvation to the world doesn't mean God has rejected the world...

God has always been in the business of separation and election from Genesis to Revelation...this is scriptures.

Probably according to your warped theology God is sadistic for chosing ONLY israel among so many other nations as a prototype of what is to come. God is also sadistic for hardening Israel so the full number of gentiles has to be ingrafted in.

God said before ANYBODY DID ANYTHING HE CHOSE US TO BE HOLY AND BLAMELESS IN HIS SIGHT.
HE PREDESTINED US TO BE ADOPTED AS HIS SONS THROUGH JESUS CHRIST IN ACCORDANCE WITH HIS PLEASURE AND WILL...Eph 1:4-5.

This was the epistle of Paul to gentile nations called the ascension epistle telling them God has chose them.God sees them pure, He sees them having no iniquity.. I can understand this kind of gospel might be offensive to you and the Jews but not to God.

ABDULADINO:
Read Eph 1:4..God chose Israel from among the nation to be the channel through which He will bring salvation to the world doesn't mean God has rejected the world...

God has always been in the business of separation and election from Genesis to Revelation...this is scriptures.

Probably according to your warped theology God is sadistic for chosing ONLY israel among so many other nations as a prototype of what is to come. God is also sadistic for hardening Israel so the full number of gentiles has to be ingrafted in.

God said before ANYBODY DID ANYTHING HE CHOSE US TO BE HOLY AND BLAMELESS IN HIS SIGHT.
HE PREDESTINED US TO BE ADOPTED AS HIS SONS THROUGH JESUS CHRIST IN ACCORDANCE WITH HIS PLEASURE AND WILL...Eph 1:4-5.

This was the epistle of Paul to gentile nations called the ascension epistle telling them God has chose them.God sees them pure, He sees them having no iniquity.. I can understand this kind of gospel might be offensive to you and the Jews but not to God.

My friend,
Israel election does your theory more harm than good. How so?
Outside Israel, outside the Law, God judges the nations WITHOUT the Law.
But with your version of Calvinism, election is strictly to those in Christ so everyone else perishes!

Try another lame defense of your elite humans theory

5solas:


Your penchant for irrelevancies is legendary! Is someone arguing with you if they can still sin or otherwise?


Are the dead here not qualified by Christ?


Did Christ say all shall hear and all shall live?
Why strive to no purpose?
It is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.

John 5:25 (KJV)
Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live
Jesus makes it clear it is THE DEAD who hear.
Think through that. Dead in their trespasses hear God. Upon hearing, they LIVE.

The point is deadness does not prevent them from hearing God. God does not make you alive FIRST and then present his voice; He speaks to you while dead, and upon hearing you live. So man in his depravity is not immune to the voice.

vooks:


My friend,
Israel election does your theory more harm than good. How so?
Outside Israel, outside the Law, God judges the nations WITHOUT the Law.

Oga, i quoted the OT, God called Israel his first born except you want to tear the OT out of your bible.

But with your version of Calvinism, election is strictly to those in Christ so everyone else perishes!

Try another lame defense of your elite humans theory

I don't have any version, i quoted scriptures except your mind is playing games. Do explain the ephesians epistles i quoted. Ayam waiting.

vooks:

John 5:25 (KJV)
Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live
Jesus makes it clear it is THE DEAD who hear.
Think through that. Dead in their trespasses hear God. Upon hearing, they LIVE.

The point is deadness does not prevent them from hearing God. God does not make you alive FIRST and then present his voice; He speaks to you while dead, and upon hearing you live. So man in his depravity is not immune to the voice.

And my point is that Christ did not say ALL of the dead shall hear His voice.

vooks:

[b]John 5:25 (KJV)

The point is deadness does not prevent them from hearing God. God does not make you alive FIRST and then present his voice; He speaks to you while dead, and upon hearing you live. So man in his depravity is not immune to the voice.

The point is that context means nothing to you.
"The dead shall hear and THEY that hear ..." means that ALL hears , to you.

ABDULADINO:
Oga, i quoted the OT, God called Israel his first born except you want to tear the OT out of your bible.
I don't have any version, i quoted scriptures except your mind is playing games. Do explain the ephesians epistles i quoted. Ayam waiting.

Like I told you about Israel, God still saved many outside Israel. So Israel election was not the determinant of eternity before Calvary.
Romans 2:12 King James Version (KJV)
12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;


So there was salvation and damnation OUTSIDE Israel. Very important you note that.

Ephesians 1:4 King James Version (KJV)
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

The MOST important thing in this verse is IN HIM. God chooses those who are IN Christ. It is being IN Christ that makes me Elect, and not Election that makes me IN Christ.

This is why all believers are called Elect regardless of whether they will fall away the next minute. IN CHRIST we are chosen.

Let me explain it further by a simple example. When Herod ordered a genocide in Matthew 2:16,he specified the age,gender and area under which it was to be carried. If a child 'qualified',they were killed, and this would include 'stray' kids like Jesus (he just happened to be born in Bethlehem but his parents were from Galilee-Luke 1:26) Herod did not pick names and identities of his victims. Likewise, before the foundation of the earth God elects to favour a group with one condition; they MUST be IN Christ.

So you always have a group/body corporate called Elect not individuals. The body Of Christ is the Elect. It is by being part of the body that we enjoy sanctification,justification.......

You readily admit that Jesus died to save ALL and not a few. Anybody accepting Him joins His Body and thus becomes Elect. Those who don't are reprobates.

5solas:

The point is that context means nothing to you.
"The dead shall hear and THEY that hear ..." means that ALL hears , to you.

1. The DEAD shall hear
2. They that shall hear

Who are 'they'? The dead of course?
Much as English is not your first or even tenth language, the sense of that verse is clear

Men estranged from God, totally dead still hear God.

5solas:

And my point is that Christ did not say ALL of the dead shall hear His voice.

That is a truism. Very many have and will perish without the gospel.

The important bit from this verse is a man totally dead in their trespasses still CAN hear God. Being dead is no excuse for not hearing God.

A sinner can either accept and respond to the voice or they can ignore it. Salvation of God is optional and not rammed down our spirits.

Finally
Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. (John 1:13)
It is, indeed, as great an absurdity as can be thought of, to suppose that the corrupt, vicious heart does anything towards its becoming holy, or exercises any will or choice that has the least tendency to it; as absurd as to suppose that the exercise of perfect selfishness has a tendency to produce benevolence, or that the heart is made better and becomes holy by the constant exercise of lust and wickedness. For all the exercises and volitions of the corrupt, unregenerate heart are certainly the exercises of sin. It was, nevertheless, of importance that this should be particularly observed by the evangelist, when treating of this matter; seeing, however plain it is, and though the contrary is so very absurd, men are ready to imagine they may be born again by the will of the flesh, or, at least, that by the exertions of their own wills and endeavors they may do something towards it. In this delusion, I suppose all men naturally are, and that no man heartily and really gives up this point until he is taught of God. And multitudes of professing Christians do persist in expressly opposing what is here asserted all their days.
~Samuel Hopkins.

An2elect2:
Finally

Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the
flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. (John 1:13)

It is, indeed, as great an absurdity as can be thought
of, to suppose that the corrupt, vicious heart does
anything towards its becoming holy, or exercises any
will or choice that has the least tendency to it; as
absurd as to suppose that the exercise of perfect
selfishness has a tendency to produce benevolence,
or that the heart is made better and becomes holy by
the constant exercise of lust and wickedness. For all
the exercises and volitions of the corrupt,
unregenerate heart are certainly the exercises of sin.
It was, nevertheless, of importance that this should
be particularly observed by the evangelist, when
treating of this matter; seeing, however plain it is,
and though the contrary is so very absurd, men are
ready to imagine they may be born again by the will
of the flesh, or, at least, that by the exertions of their
own wills and endeavors they may do something
towards it. In this delusion, I suppose all men
naturally are, and that no man heartily and really
gives up this point until he is taught of God. And
multitudes of professing Christians do persist in
expressly opposing what is here asserted all their
days.

~Samuel Hopkins.

John 1:12-13 (KJV)
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God

Note carefully
They receive him first and then become sons of God. Belief comes first and then Sonship. God ONLY makes sons out of those who receive Him

The DEAD hear his voice and live.
John 5:25 (KJV)
Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live
Which is it, Hopkins or John?

vooks:

Like I told you about Israel, God still saved many outside Israel. So Israel election was not the determinant of eternity before Calvary.
Romans 2:12 King James Version (KJV)
12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

God saved few when Israel wasn't born from Noah to Abraham.An example of the MANY that God saved would help me get your point.
Jesus came from that lineage( Jews) to say it wasn't a determinant is to go against scriptures.

So there was salvation and damnation OUTSIDE Israel. Very important you note that.

Those outside the covenant of Israel were still judged by the motives of their heart( Romans 2:14).. Example i gave was Abraham.So who put those laws in their heart?

Ephesians 1:4 King James Version (KJV)
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

The MOST important thing in this verse is IN HIM. God chooses those who are IN Christ. It is being IN Christ that makes me Elect, and not Election that makes me IN Christ.

The Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world. God is no respecter of chronological time.He does things by the predeterminate counsel of His will. Noah,Abraham, Moses,prostitute Rahab,Samson, Jephthah, David, Samuel and all the patriachs and prophets were ALL IN CHRIST before He came. This is election by Grace and Jeremiah boldly declared it that before He was formed God CHOSE him and SET HIM APART.( Jer 1:5).

This is why all believers are called Elect regardless of whether they will fall away the next minute. IN CHRIST we are chosen.

Let me explain it further by a simple example. When Herod ordered a genocide in Matthew 2:16,he specified the age,gender and area under which it was to be carried. If a child 'qualified',they were killed, and this would include 'stray' kids like Jesus (he just happened to be born in Bethlehem but his parents were from Galilee-Luke 1:26) Herod did not pick names and identities of his victims. Likewise, before the foundation of the earth God elects to favour a group with one condition; they MUST be IN Christ.

Herod is a type of satan, the analogy doesn't follow by equating what he does with what God does.God's wisdom is different from devilish wisdom.

So you always have a group/body corporate called Elect not individuals. The body Of Christ is the Elect. It is by being part of the body that we enjoy sanctification,justification.......

You readily admit that Jesus died to save ALL and not a few. Anybody accepting Him joins His Body and thus becomes Elect. Those who don't are reprobates.

Care to explain why God loved Jacob and hated Esau before any of them had done anything good or bad? Is God unjust? And why a specific number of 144000 from all the tribes of Israel in revelation ?

1. Unlimited atonement removes sin as the basis for eternal condemnation. 

Faith in Christ becomes the key issue. 
Faith is a non-meritorious expression. 

2. A person who expresses faith in Christ is saved, regenerated, in union with Christ, in dwelt by the Spirit, given spiritual gifts, sealed, etc. 

All these are acts of God's grace. 

3. Can the saved then cancel out what God has accomplished?
Can sin or failure (e.g. Failure to continue to have faith) on the part of the saved be great enough to cancel God's grace? 
Or, will God reverse His grace provisions for the saved due to failure on the part of the saved?

4. Grace is all about UNMERITED FAVOUR. 
Grace has been defined as: "A favor done without expectation of return; absolute freeness of the lovingkindness of God to men finding its only motive in the bounty and free heartedness of the Giver; unearned and unmerited favor" (The Lexical Aid to the New Testament). 

5. God's grace is a favour done without the expectation of return. 
- The Good Samaritan Lk. 10:30-35
- The Ten Lepers Lk. 17:12-18

6. God's grace is an expression of his unfailing love; Is. 54:10a, Ps. 89:2, 1 Cor. 13:8. 

7. God's grace is solely on the basis of His integrity expressed in his bounty and freeheartedness - Lk. 11:13. 

8. God's grace is not dependent on man's MERIT - Romans 5:8

9. God's grace is TOTALLY dependent on Him - the Giver rather than the receiver. Man, on this side of eternity, will always be imperfect. Only God is perfect. God is not impressed by man's works - Isa. 64:6; God is only impressed with His own work. 

10. If man does ANYTHING to remain saved the he (man) 'earned' it. That would cancel out grace - Romans 11:6. Adding anything to grace nullifies grace. 

11. God's grace is unconditional; therefore it is not dependent on man but on God. God is unchanging and so His grace continues undiminished. God's grace does not swing like a pendulum. 

What God starts in grace, He continues in grace!

trustman:
1. Unlimited atonement removes sin as the basis for eternal condemnation. 

Faith in Christ becomes the key issue. 
Faith is a non-meritorious expression. 

2. A person who expresses faith in Christ is saved, regenerated, in union with Christ, in dwelt by the Spirit, given spiritual gifts, sealed, etc. 

All these are acts of God's grace. 

3. Can the saved then cancel out what God has accomplished?
Can sin or failure (e.g. Failure to continue to have faith) on the part of the saved be great enough to cancel God's grace? 
Or, will God reverse His grace provisions for the saved due to failure on the part of the saved?

4. Grace is all about UNMERITED FAVOUR. 
Grace has been defined as: "A favor done without expectation of return; absolute freeness of the lovingkindness of God to men finding its only motive in the bounty and free heartedness of the Giver; unearned and unmerited favor" (The Lexical Aid to the New Testament). 

5. God's grace is a favour done without the expectation of return. 
- The Good Samaritan Lk. 10:30-35
- The Ten Lepers Lk. 17:12-18

6. God's grace is an expression of his unfailing love; Is. 54:10a, Ps. 89:2, 1 Cor. 13:8. 

7. God's grace is solely on the basis of His integrity expressed in his bounty and freeheartedness - Lk. 11:13. 

8. God's grace is not dependent on man's MERIT - Romans 5:8

9. God's grace is TOTALLY dependent on Him - the Giver rather than the receiver. Man, on this side of eternity, will always be imperfect. Only God is perfect. God is not impressed by man's works - Isa. 64:6; God is only impressed with His own work. 

10. If man does ANYTHING to remain saved the he (man) 'earned' it. That would cancel out grace - Romans 11:6. Adding anything to grace nullifies grace. 

11. God's grace is unconditional; therefore it is not dependent on man but on God. God is unchanging and so His grace continues undiminished. God's grace does not swing like a pendulum. 

What God starts in grace, He continues in grace!

But do you realise that:
1. Grace can be received in vain by the receiver; 2 Corinth 6:1

2. Frustrated by the receiver; Galatians 2:21

3. Fallen from by he that once received it? Galatians 5:4

4. Turned to lasciviousness and an occasion to serve the flesh if careful heed is not taken; Jude 4

5. Grace works in tandem with our wills and willingness? 1 Corinth 15:10

6. Grace only becomes effectual in our lives when we believe on Him Romans 5:2 hence the need to hold fast and continue in the faith.

7. Actions that contradict the grace received by faith we possess are evidences that we are no longer in the faith 2 Corinth 13:5

8. Grace goes beyond forgiveness of sins to empowerment to live victorious lives Titus 2:11-13 and that if this aspect of grace is missing, we may profess grace but we deceive ourselves!

9. Sequel to (8.), if we have no earnest hunger and thirst after righteousness and purity, and only rejoice in the forgiveness aspect of grace then we have a form of godliness while denying the power thereof: a recipe for becoming reprobates!

ABDULADINO:
God saved few when Israel wasn't born from Noah to Abraham.An example of the MANY that God saved would help me get your point.

God gave opportunities to ALL

Jesus came from that lineage( Jews) to say it wasn't a determinant is to go against scriptures.

By saying it's no determinant I mean there is salvation outside the Law just as there is condemnation. What do you think happens to those who never heard of Torah?

Those outside the covenant of Israel were still judged by the motives of their heart( Romans 2:14).. Example i gave was Abraham.So who put those laws in their heart?

The most important thing is there is salvation outside the Law, and I don't mean those who lived before the Law, I mean those who lived during the Law but outside Israel

The Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world. God is no respecter of chronological time.He does things by the predeterminate counsel of His will. Noah,Abraham, Moses,prostitute Rahab,Samson, Jephthah, David, Samuel and all the patriachs and prophets were ALL IN CHRIST before He came. This is election by Grace and Jeremiah boldly declared it that before He was formed God CHOSE him and SET HIM APART.( Jer 1:5).

God is no respecter of persons. If he respects some persons over others, then Peter is clearly deluded
Acts 10:34-35 (KJV)
Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: 35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him
You need to read this verse severally and let the truth sink; God has no favorites NOW

Herod is a type of satan, the analogy doesn't follow by equating what he does with what God does.God's wisdom is different from devilish wisdom.

The point remains...election is corporate and conditional not arbitrary and individual. Join Christ and you are Elect, stay outside and you are a reprobate

Care to explain why God loved Jacob and hated Esau before any of them had done anything good or bad? Is God unjust? And why a specific number of 144000 from all the tribes of Israel in revelation ?

God preferring Jacob over Essau was simply for rolling out His plans. He never condemned one to hell while saving the other. Just like He made Paul an apostle to the Gentiles and Peter to the Jews

trustman:

10. If man does ANYTHING to remain saved the he (man) 'earned' it. That would cancel out grace - Romans 11:6. Adding anything to grace nullifies grace. 

We are saved by grace through faith.
Faith is not works so remaining in faith is not working.

11. God's grace is unconditional; therefore it is not dependent on man but on God.  

God's grace is AVAILABLE for all men
Titus 2:11 (KJV)
For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

But is only realized through faith
Ephesians 2:8 (KJV)
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God

And this is why despite God's grace overflowing, multitudes will miss its merits
Christ's sacrifice is SUFFICIENT for ALL but EFFICIENT only for those who believe

God is unchanging and so His grace continues undiminished. God's grace does not swing like a pendulum.

These cliches and rhetoric are full of half-truths. He is unchanging and Lucifer will end up in Hell

What God starts in grace, He continues in grace!

What is appropriated by faith is kept by faith

vooks:

Scholar8200:

A true understanding of grace should elicit a great appreciation of God, and awe and reverence for Him. Not the opposite. 

Also, the issue in a true understanding of grace is God's integrity, not ours. 

God gave Christ as a sin-offering to the world. 
Is there going to be a time when God will say something like  'I'm tired of mankind. I'm withdrawing my gift'?

If God did so much for the man when he was 'dead' will He do any less for the believer in Christ?

Our focus therefore should be on God's viewpoint. Grace is ALL about what God did. Man only responds to it and contributes nothing to it. 

Can man 'unrespond' to his initial response to salvation and then become 'unsaved'?

Some pertinent questions:
1. When a person becomes 'born again' does anything happen to him to change his spiritual status?
2. Is that change in status 'real' ?
3. If real, is that change temporary or permanent ?
4. When a Christian sins does his initial spiritual status change? If yes, to what? Can he be restored?
5. Can a person be saved more than once? So if anything can make a believer 'unsaved' (since it is the unsaved that will end up in hell) doesn't he have to be 'saved' again to be right with God?
6. What is the equation of salvation - faith alone in Christ alone or faith in Christ plus some additional things ( living a sin-free life or not renouncing Christ)? In other words does man add to Christ's work to make it complete or effectual?

If man can do anything to add to God's work in saving him then salvation is not a GIFT of grace; it is not 'unearned' or 'unmerited favour' and not dependent on the bounty and free heartedness of God. If man can do anything to add to or complete his salvation then it's not a FAVOUR! It's payment (at least in part) for the 'work' he did. He earned it in part. Therefore the glory belongs to both God and himself. But that would be blasphemous. 

Adding man's work to the process of salvation is irreconcilable with the truth of the Word of God. That is why the scripture emphatically declares that:
"For BY GRACE you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the GIFT of God, NOT A RESULT OF WORKS, so that no one may boast". Ephesians 2:8&9

"he saved us, NOT BECAUSE OF WORKS done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy" Titus 2:5a

"who saved us and called us to a holy calling, NOT BECAUSE OF OUR WORKS but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began," 2 Timothy 1:9

Salvation is by faith ALONE in Christ ALONE. Man's 'works' (however they are classified) play no part in it from start to finish. 
Acts 13:39 "Through him everyone who believes is justified from everything you could not be justified from by the law of Moses."

trustman:




A true understanding of grace should elicit a great appreciation of God, and awe and reverence for Him. Not the opposite. 

Very correct.

God gave Christ as a sin-offering to the world. 
Is there going to be a time when God will say something like  'I'm tired of mankind. I'm withdrawing my gift'?

God never changes but man does. God will never withdraw His Gift but man can withdraw from faith! The prodigal son left the father's house of his own accord and as long as he was away, he was counted dead!

If God did so much for the man when he was 'dead' will He do any less for the believer in Christ?

As long as that believer cleaves to Him with purpose of heart!

Our focus therefore should be on God's viewpoint. Grace is ALL about what God did. Man only responds to it and contributes nothing to it. 

Rather we should be balanced in our outlook. True we cannot add to Christ's finished work of redemption, however we must RECEIVE and REMAIN therein BY FAITH and continue in the latter else such faith is dead!

Can man 'unrespond' to his initial response to salvation and then become 'unsaved'?

If we fail to watch and examine ourselves, give all diligence to make our calling and election sure, keeping in mind the Gospel, our faith will be vain!
8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
2Peter 1:8,9

The implication of the highlighted is that such a one reverts back to the state he was when his eyes were blinded by the god of this world! Do read the whole chapter to understand the context.

Some pertinent questions:
1. When a person becomes 'born again' does anything happen to him to change his spiritual status?
2. Is that change in status 'real' ?
3. If real, is that change temporary or permanent ?
4. When a Christian sins does his initial spiritual status change? If yes, to what? Can he be restored?
5. Can a person be saved more than once? So if anything can make a believer 'unsaved' (since it is the unsaved that will end up in hell) doesn't he have to be 'saved' again to be right with God?
6. What is the equation of salvation - faith alone in Christ alone or faith in Christ plus some additional things ( living a sin-free life or not renouncing Christ)? In other words does man add to Christ's work to make it complete or effectual?

1.The Life is revealed in such a person and he is illuminated all by his faith in Christ.

2. The Newness of Life is made possible by his faith in God's provision. As long as the faith by which he has access to that Grace is intact and increases more and more, he is sure. If otherwise, he may become a reprobate claiming a salvation by faith but denying the power thereof, having a name that he lives but is dead! Revelation 3:1-5

3. That depends on the believer. The Provision is permanent, but man having accessed same by faith must continue in the faith lest he be cut off.
Hence the repeated exhortation to stand fast, hold fast, take heed, resist the enemy etc all needed if a man will continue in that state and increase therein!

4. From James 1:15, we see that sin brings forth death! How many sins did Ananias commit before he was struck? Now don't say they were not truly saved as Peter's rebuke makes it clear that he yielded to temptation!

5. If Jesus' continual command to the churches in Revelations 2 & 3 to repent, and 1 John 2:1,2 is anything to go by, it is clear that when a believer sins, such is expected to repent and take every necessary step to avoid a repetition! Repentance goes together with sorrow, burden and concern:
See how Paul described it in 2 Corinth 7:10-11
10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.

(The highlighted forecloses any trite, God forgive me" and life goes on. Besides, we deceive ourselves when we 'repent' with a mindset of,'God knows I am weak and this will happen again)

11 For behold this selfsame thing, that ye sorrowed after a godly sort, what carefulness it wrought in you, yea, what clearing of yourselves, yea, what indignation, yea, what fear, yea, what vehement desire, yea, what zeal, yea, what revenge! In all things ye have approved yourselves to be clear in this matter.

6. Equation of salvation: God's Provision x (1,0)____=(Salvation, Damnation)
a) 1= saving faith (backed with repentance)
b) 0=mental assent with no appreciation of moral destitution & need of Saviour

Equation of Preservation: God's Power x (1,0)=(Secured, Cut off)
a) 1=active faith(backed by watchfulness, giving all diligence,resisting temptation, denying the flesh, endeavour to grow in Grace)
b) 0=passive hope (I have no role to play, God saved me and must keep me anyhow)

I have used '1' because we dont add to God's provision when we manifest these; rather we being free moral agents indicate our willingness to receive and continue in His Provision.

If man can do anything to add to God's work in saving him then salvation is not a GIFT of grace;

As a free moral agent, we must show our willingness to receive and continue therein day by day. (Jesus emphasized bearing the cross and following Him daily)

it is not 'unearned' or 'unmerited favour' and not dependent on the bounty and free heartedness of God. If man can do anything to add to or complete his salvation then it's not a FAVOUR! It's payment (at least in part) for the 'work' he did. He earned it in part. Therefore the glory belongs to both God and himself. But that would be blasphemous. 

When you say grace is a Favour can you expantiate:

1. Do you mean its a permission or a Power?
2. Is it only a writing off of old debts with an invite to freely incur new ones or that and an empowerment to ensure that debt will be an exception that evokes concern, not a norm?
3. Establish your description of grace as favour from the Bible.
4. If possible give types from the OT and/or parables in the NT that illustrate your definition of Grace.

Adding man's work to the process of salvation is irreconcilable with the truth of the Word of God. That is why the scripture emphatically declares that:
"For BY GRACE you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the GIFT of God, NOT A RESULT OF WORKS, so that no one may boast". Ephesians 2:8&9

"he saved us, NOT BECAUSE OF WORKS done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy" Titus 2:5a

And after He saved us what was to be the result?
Ephesians 2:10
10 For we are God’s handiwork, [b]created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.[/b]

Meaning we are not saved by goodworks but after we are saved, good works must follow else our saving faith is vain. Besides the use of the word 'created' (not redeemed) shows that This Life in Christ was God original design for Adam and his before he fell. This answers the question of what was predestinated: not people but character!

"who saved us and called us to a holy calling, NOT BECAUSE OF OUR WORKS but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began," 2 Timothy 1:9

But the same epistle is garnished with warnings, commandments and exhortations for the minister who had been saved, likewise 1 Timothy!

Salvation is by faith ALONE in Christ ALONE. Man's 'works' (however they are classified) play no part in it from start to finish. 
Acts 13:39 "Through him everyone who believes is justified from everything you could not be justified from by the law of Moses."

He who believes but bears no fruit is cut off and burnt! We are saved by faith but," ...faith worketh by love": the Fruit of the Spirit and evidence that we truly believed and were born of the Spirit! Continuance in such faith to the end is the only guarantee of security!