What do you think about christians participating in politics. especially in the Nigerian context.

And what about Rev. Chris Okotie? What happens to his church while he is serving as president? Don't you think the calling of a pastor is higher than that of a king?

Mmmmmmmmm, let me think,

lafile:

What do you think about christians participating in politics.

Bad idea, we have a divine mandate to fulfil and enough to keep us occupied. Politics, commerce and culture (the world) are effectively under the sway of the evil one.

lafile:

And what about Rev. Chris Okotie? What happens to his church while he is serving as president?

I don't know what will happen to his church while he is serving as President, but the "Church of Jesus Christ" will be just fine. Not that I think he will make President, or even care.

lafile:

don't you think the calling of a pastor is higher than that of a king?

If you mean a secular king, no. If you mean a spiritual king, no. So that's a no then.

TayoD started a similar thread, but turned tail when he realised how misguided and contra scriptural the whole idea is. Let's end this real quick.

God bless

@TV01,
Seriously and with all due respect, I think you have a limited understanding of the scriptures but always forceful in asserting your point. I read some of your contributions on the Tithes discussion, etc. Can you kindly point out where it is inferred in the scriptures that Christians participating in politics is 'contra-scriptural'? before you start accusing TayoD of turning tail. Let's leave Chris Okotie for now and discuss the "principle or concept of christians in politics"
What exactly do you understand by the word 'politics'? You are more or less agreeing with the concept that 'politics is a dirty game'. Who gave that definition?. The press, philosophers, etc. The thuggery, arson and violence practiced do not define 'politics'. When God created man and said 'Have Dominion,,,,,,,' do you really understand the concept of dominion? It is not 'about dominating' that is done in 'our politics' but influencing the world positively in every facet and discipline to the glory of God.

The next concept is 'who is a Christian'? Is it just the church goer? Our nation and the world is in a jam now because we Christians have not really taken up the command of God to "Have Dominion". It is not just about establishing churches, and ordaining new pastors that is the divine mandate of the body of Christ. I will recommend you attend some Christian leadership seminars, read leadership books written to actually know the role of the "Ecclesia" in politics and the world affairs. I have sat down with Myles Munroe among many others at many teachings where we used the Bible Scriptures to investigate the role of the body of Christ in politics/world affairs and I am telling you, we need to get out there, and get into politics. This is the beginning of this thread, believe me nobody will turn tail because I am very interested in this and I hope TayoD and many others will come and 'let us reason together'. But before we go on, kindly furnish us with the scriptures you claimed are against Christians participating in politics. Peace.

Hello Havila,

Havila:

@TV01,
Seriously and with all due respect, I think you have a limited understanding of the scriptures

With all due respect, I agree with you. We all have a limited understanding of the scriptures.

Havila:

@TV01,
I read some of your contributions on the Tithes discussion, etc.

So? And? Are you a proponent of mandatory tithing? Like I said, we are all limited.

Havila:

@TV01,
Let's leave Chris Okotie for now

I never went there in the first place. I don't discuss people. Issues, principles, doctrine, concepts, ideas maybe, but not people.

Havila:

I will recommend you attend some Christian leadership seminars, read leadership books written to actually know the role of the "Ecclesia" in politics and the world affairs. I have sat down with Myles Munroe among many others at many teachings where we used the Bible Scriptures to investigate the role of the body of Christ in politics/world affairs and I am telling you, we need to get out there, and get into politics.

I read a great book on leadership, it's called the Bible. As for sitting down with whomever, please refer to my comments above about people. Name dropping is at best a bore, but if you have anything to share, please do.  I am always eager for the chance to reduce my "Scriptural Limitedness" Like I said, aren't we all scripturally challenged?

Scripture? "My kingdom is not of this world", would be a good start. May I point out the symbolism of those that represent the state in scripture. I'm sure your close to unlimited scriptural knowledge means you know exactly who they are. "The Leaven of Herod".

Sounds like a tithing dominionist is telling me where to get off. But I accept your offer to come and reason together. Please invite a few of your big name friends along.  Like I said, I'm right here, happy to be humbled if it means being enlightened.

ps - TayoD, you aint mad at me are you? Please take my tail comment as light-hearted joshing, but if offence is taken, I sincerely apologise.

God bless.

Its a vital something

Quote from TV01: I read a great book on leadership, it's called the Bible. As for sitting down with whomever, please refer to my comments above about people. Name dropping is at best a bore, but if you have anything to share, please do.  I am always eager for the chance to reduce my "Scriptural Limitedness" Like I said, aren't we all scripturally challenged?
Scripture? "My kingdom is not of this world", would be a good start. May I point out the symbolism of those that represent the state in scripture. I'm sure your close to unlimited scriptural knowledge means you know exactly who they are. "The Leaven of Herod".  Sounds like a tithing dominionist is telling me where to get off

@TV01,
You can fly off to name calling by calling me a 'tithing dominionist' when you don't even know my stand on tithing, whatever!!. Saying I have sat at Myles Munroe and others at seminars is not an attempt at name dropping but to let you know that this is currently a topical issue and because I am interested in politics ; however I am willing to learn from divergent opinion and discussions on this topic. If I deduce from your intonation about your "comments above about people", that could mean you are not interested in some of the speakers I referred to. Well, nobody has the monopoly of wisdom and believe me, you can learn a lot from other, well experienced teachers if only you submit. No doubt bible is a great book, but we need to learn from other teachers and men on God to have deeper understanding.
Well, you mentioned you have scriptures but only wrote a line and said, let's start from there. Why don't you start, let us know what your inferences are from the passage you quoted ("My kingdom is not of this world", your expositions etc because now I don't know what you are thinking or how that passage is against Christians participating in politics. You will have to say more than that because i wont like to quote you out of context; at least you started the claim that it is contra-scriptural for christians to be in politics, then prove it conclusively and then I respond. Thanks for aplogising to TayoD,; it shows you are a man of dignity. So let's have a straight discussion. Regards.

Myles Munroe is not exactly a wise choice of a "teacher" anyway; and i have seen him speak live too.

Enigma:

Myles Munroe is not exactly a wise choice of a "teacher" anyway; and i have seen him speak live too.

Is that all? Thanks!. What else do you have to say on the topic?

guys check our Rev. Chris Oyakhilome.  A perfect teacher, evangelist, crusader, healing minister, prophet and indeed a pastor. Log on to www.christembassy.org  for more information.

@TV01 et al: I will kickstart my argument in support of Christians participating in politics with scriptural evidence thus:

What exactly is politics?: As a noun, it is defined in the dictionary as: “The art or science of government or governing, especially the governing of a political entity, such as a nation, and the administration and control of its internal and external affairs.” It could also mean “The activities or affairs engaged in by a government, a politician, or political party”. Thus, in whatever way you look at it, politics is actually about the art of governing, leadership, administration or influencing; and NOT the quality of those attributes (whether good or bad) which however is usually used to define politics. For example: A bad teacher does not mean teaching is bad, right?

Now, let’s go to the greatest book on leadership-the Bible, and check out one example of the instruction of the greatest leader himself, Jesus Christ to his disciples -i.e. Christians today- in Matthew 20 vs 25-28. (The context was following the request by the mother of Zebedee’s children for Jesus to ‘positions’ her sons on His left and right in His Kingdom and the anger of the other disciples at James and John for ‘jostling for positions’.)

Matt Chapter 20: (25) But Jesus called them unto him, and said, You know that the rulers of the world lord it over them, and their great ones exercise authority over them. (26) But that is not what you are to do: He who would become great among you shall be your minister;  (27) and whosoever would be first among you shall be your servant: (28) even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.”

You can see that Jesus DID NOT tell us NOT to be great or not to be leaders, he did NOT say that desire is wrong. Instead He told us how to get there, what it means to be a great leader and how to be a great leader. What we see in our politicians today are leaders who do not wish to serve the people, but want to be served or rather worshipped. That does not mean politics is wrong but that the politicians are wrong since they do not know what it means to be a leader. I will await responses and counter arguments before showing other evidences in support of our being actively involved in the affairs of our nation politically. Peace.

Hi Havila,

Havila:

Matt Chapter 20: (25) But Jesus called them unto him, and said, You know that the rulers of the world lord it over them, and their great ones exercise authority over them. (26) But that is not what you are to do: He who would become great among you shall be your minister;  (27) and whosoever would be first among you shall be your servant: (28) even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.”

You can see that Jesus DID NOT tell us NOT to be great or not to be leaders, he did NOT say that desire is wrong. Instead He told us how to get there, what it means to be a great leader and how to be a great leader. What we see in our politicians today are leaders who do not wish to serve the people, but want to be served or rather worshipped. That does not mean politics is wrong but that the politicians are wrong since they do not know what it means to be a leader. I will await responses and counter arguments before showing other evidences in support of our being actively involved in the affairs of our nation politically. Peace.

Please don't take offence, but I don't see how you can read scripture enjoining Christians to serve one another, as a mandate to enter the worldly political arena. The Lord said "The Leaders of this World" - We are not of this world! The reason we are to conduct ourselves differently is because we are under a different rule, in a different kingdom.

And please, arguing that because He did not preclude certain actions/activities therefore they are encouraged is somewhat weak. Furthermore, the Lord equated greatness with serving, while you are applying the literal worldly use. If you are serving the needy, the poor, the downtrodden and disenfranchised, worldly greatness is not your bag. The "Son of Man came to serve". When did He seek fame, political clout or celebrity?

This has dominion theology written all over it.

Your say mate.

God bless

TV01:

Hi Havila,
Please don't take offence, but I don't see how you can read scripture enjoining Christians to serve one another, as a mandate to enter the worldly political arena. The Lord said "The Leaders of this World" - We are not of this world! The reason we are to conduct ourselves differently is because we are under a different rule, in a different kingdom.

@TV01,
'We are not of this world' or 'in a different kingdom' does not mean we are not living in this world now. It is contradictory for you to say you are not of this world and still talk about serving the needy, poor and downtrodden. You have to be in this world to see their suffering and do the will of God in ministering to them even if they are not 'Christians' like you. When Jesus talk of His kingdom as being not of this world, to us christians, he is giving us an account of the 'nature' of His kingdom. It's nature is NOT worldly; it is a kingdom within men, set up in our hearts and conscience, it's riches spiritual, it's power spiritual, and it's glory within. That does not mean we are not living in the physical world where we are to impart influence with the nature of God's kingdom within us. It amounts to "escape theology" when you claim we are not of this world as a reason to shy away from our responsibilty and mandate. So how do you really serve the poor, unemployed, needy, sick etc if we stay away from using the nature of God's kingdom in us to particpate actively in governing the affairs of our nation? By doing missionary works, good, but not enough my friend!!

Yes, Jesus Christ did not seek fame or political clout, he does not have to; he had political clout through his ministry. Nobody else in the history of the world till date has had the 'political clout' on world affairs than Jesus Christ. He confronted the law of the Pharisees and saducees and rulers who were lording it over the people then(sound familiar?); we are here today in freedom of worship because of his 'political clout'. By the nature of God's kingdom in us, we have the political clout to positively influence, not seeking it. Seeking clout is what worldly politicians do, that makes them behave as masters and not servants as Jesus told us to be in greatness.
I await the 'contra-sciptures' against our being in politics because, as I detailed above, because Jesus said His Kingdom is not of this world is definitely not againt our being involved in the world, but against living like the world.

Mr. Havila,

So, “He had political clout through His ministry” did He?

That would explain why he was ridiculed, condemned and crucified by local state politics (Herod), federal politics (Pilate) and religious politics (the chief pries, Pharisees, scribes etc etc). Since it was the Jewish crowds who bayed for His blood, that would suggest He did not have a lot of grassroots support either.

Politics as it exists, is a way to gain state power. The kingdoms/states of this world are under the sway of the evil one. Try sitting on an evil throne and see if it won’t corrupt you or persecute you to the uttermost. When the church apes the world, it ceases to be the church.

The Christian charge is to spread the gospel and serve/minister to the needy.

It the same carnal thinking that introduced hierarchical/political structures into the church, that somehow thinks gaining political power on the earth is the way to usher in Gods kingdom.

I said we are not of the world (not to misunderstand that we are most definitely in it), and you called that escape theology? Does your reading of the scriptures honestly teach you that the way to engage the world is by using its own apparatus and infrastructure? That the Bible gives Christians a political mandate. Please don’t refer to the stories of Joseph and/or Daniel. They were not career politicians, but servants, despite the lofty heights they reached.

God bless

A lady was in our church yesterday to share her testimony. She's 50 years old now and was born again at the age of 16. She has five children and 23 foster children that she raised up in her home along with the husband of her youth.

Her name is Mitchelle Bachman, a Minnesota State Congress Woman now running for the Nation's Congress. Against her candidature is the far-left who see her as a threat to the advancment of homo-sexuality. She's the author of the State's Marriage Ammendment bill which should be on the ballot this November. She is vehemently opposed to abortion and is known to be above board. Funny enough, her sister is a lesbian, but that doesn't keep her from standing up for what is true to her conscience.

This is a Christian in politics, using the world but not abusing it (1 Corinthians 7:31); being a salt and light to the world (Matthew 5:13-16), and being a minister of God (Romans 13:4).

Just like money, politics is a tool that can be used for right or for wrong. Politics in the hands of the wicked will bring suffering to the people, while politics in the hands of the uncompromisingly righteous, will bring blessings and rejoicing.

@TV01,
I was about replying to your initial response until I read the follow-up about the lady Mitchelle Bachman. I am no longer sure where your standing is but I think you've seen yourself through the achievements and the aims of this great woman what the impact of christians being in politics could be, going by your own very words, or what do you think we've been talking about since:

TayoD:

Her name is Mitchelle Bachman, a Minnesota State Congress Woman now running for the Nation's Congress. Against her candidature is the far-left who see her as a threat to the advancment of homo-sexuality. She's the author of the State's Marriage Ammendment bill which should be on the ballot this November. She is vehemently opposed to abortion and is known to be above board. Funny enough, her sister is a lesbian, but that doesn't keep her from standing up for what is true to her conscience. (that is the very nature and kingdom of christ in her)
This is a Christian in politics, using the world but not abusing it (1 Corinthians 7:31); being a salt and light to the world (Matthew 5:13-16), and being a minister of God (Romans 13:4).
Just like money, politics is a tool that can be used for right or for wrong. Politics in the hands of the wicked will bring suffering to the people(Amen, preach it!), while politics in the hands of the uncompromisingly righteous, will bring blessings and rejoicing. (You see why you and I and many christians should consider going into politics like her, not to lead but to serve and exert godly positive influence in the world that the wicked reins unchallenged, formulating policies that affects our lives)

So, do you now support christians in politics or you support only those christians who are "50yrs old, been born again since the age of 16 and have 5 children and 23 forster children" should go into politics.
You definitely misunderstood my saying that Jesus has political clout in his ministry. TV01, this our period (between the first coming of christ and his return) is called the 'Church age' in the gospel; now look at these periods and see what I mean by the political clout that Jesus brought into the world. The church, (as in the so-called 'churches' e.g church of england etc), might have misused the political clout they exerted on the world before, but that is the more reason why we of the body of christ, the heavenly eclessia, must rise up now and positively impact the world we live in. Nobody gave politics, finance etc to the devil, he took it because we buried our head in the sand, as a result gay marriage has been legalised in many so called christian nations, abortion is free-for-all, corruption is endemic, poverty is overwhelming. Do you see my point.

Havila (& TayoD, as this is a discussion we have been having in an off, on way for a while now).

Look, I don't for one moment doubt that for the most part many Christians believe that they can make a genuine difference through political activism. Indeed, on the face of it, it makes obvious sense.

The Christian mandate is not too influence the world by activley participating in it. It's to save those on whom the wrath of God abides from out of it. Trying to battle the world using the worlds systems, infrastructure and ways just won't work. Politics is about many things, but firstly, it cannot save souls and secondly, any impact will be hampered by those you purport to serve.

Let me advance two scenarios as we advance this discussion.

1. Take for example abortion. It's a commonly accepted "womans right". The Christian position is abortion is murder (right?). A Christian politician, legislator etc. etc. is scripturally bound to have it repealed from the statute books. But what do we find? Chritian politicians (and clergy men) arguing for in a reduction in the time lilmits for abortion, but not against it. Compromise. And that's where politics always leads you. Think about it a bit more. The people you purport to serve (and as a politician you would serve a constituency that is not necessarily all Christian), want you to serve them. Not your faith ideals. So for example, if a true Christian Prime Minister ascended into power here in the UK how could he/she repeal abortion? Not when 80% of the poulation think there's nothing wrong with it and consider it a basic right? Again, he/she would be compromised. Apply this reasoning to gambling, fornication, adultery (which I believe is still on the statute books, but who ever gets prosecuted for it? Indeed a woman can commit adultery and then divorce her husband, taking him to the cleaners in the process!)

2. Politics as law making. You cannot legislate against wickedness and unbelief. Gay homosexuality (and the lesbian variety) where once illegal and it was still widespread. You can legislate all you will. Laws do not change people's nature. Indeed, the Bible says "the Law is not for the righteous". Whatever the state position on homosexuality, it will not stop the practise or more pertinet to Christians, make any converts.

And one question.

1. Please show me where Christian politics (as opposed to a Christian culture) has made a true difference in any nation in the world.

While I appreciate your reasoning,  my position remains unchanged. The Christian mandate is not to partner with, consult, endorse or join forces with the world. It's to save the lost out of it. Where is it written "Go ye into all the world and engage in party politics"? People who know and love God do not need politics or politicians to keep them in the way of righteousness. Neither can politics or politicians keep people off the path of wickedness.

I'd like to take this discussion a little deeper, but lets clear this hurdle first.

God bless.

lets just say that anything is possible .

@TV01,
Let me start from your last question: What do you mean by 'Christian politics'? It does not exist, at the beginning of this discourse, I gave a definition of politics but also added that politics is usually defined by the quality of it's attributes but it is an art itself. You added a new one with Christian politics which could be an idiomatic expression. Christians participating in administration or in making the laws they and their families are required to live by does not mean it is Christian politics. However, I will give you examples of how peoples have allowed their Christian principles to direct or influence governing; the stem cell research, legalization of abortion, gay marriages in the Federal and some state systems in US is currently being challenged because George Bush and some state Governors are using their Christian principles to aid them in setting boundaries or limitations in an increasingly permissive world. This is an example of principle and we do not need to go into George Bush as a person.

And to your 2 scenarios, it's really funny because: how will the position of the Christian involved in politics with peoples of other faith and believes really be different from the position of the Christian missionary on the field who needs to minister to peoples of different faiths and beliefs, again in an increasingly permissive world, when it comes to facing compromise? Both of them must be principled enough and prayerfully approach issues and peoples of other faith; but ultimately believe and rely on the convicting and convincing power of the Holy Spirit to actually bring about a change.
Yes, homosexuality was once illegal, so what happened? The answer is that we went to sleep and the 'enemy' came to sow tares. We were and still behaving exactly as you are prescribing, which is to ignore politics and law making at our own peril. While law in itself might not keep people off the path of wickedness, it can sure create a very conducive environment or atmosphere for wickedness. Ensuring that the law does not do those enhances the work of Christian ministry in saving souls.

i've been watching TV01, Havila and TayoD go thru this topic. I personally believe Christians should participate in Politics. They've taken God out of American Schools. Imagine if there were enuff Christians on the schools board. We as Christians should spread the word everywhere by any means neccesary and biblical. Why should politics be an exception? Yes the temptation to compromise is more than likely; but would the situation be like this if we had more christians involved? if say the Nigerian senate was 75% christian who would be under pressure to compromise? the 75% christian or the 25% non-christian?

Havila,

This seems to be going nowhere fast, but let me persevere.

Right from the off, I figured you had your doctrine. No problem, we all do. But I don't hear you answering specific questions.

I initially noted my difficulty with your doctrinal exigesis and now it seems to be your analysis of the points that I raised.

Pray tell, how do you liken a Christian involved in mission with one involved in politics?

Havila:

And to your 2 scenarios, it's really funny because: how will the position of the Christian involved in politics with peoples of other faith and believes really be different from the position of the Christian missionary on the field who needs to minister to peoples of different faiths and beliefs, again in an increasingly permissive world, when it comes to facing compromise? Both of them must be principled enough and prayerfully approach issues and peoples of other faith; but ultimately believe and rely on the convicting and convincing power of the Holy Spirit to actually bring about a change.

It's so clear that this "political approach" draws it's motivation from mens strength and wisdom. Folly. Sheer foolishness. Not by power, neither by the wisdom of this world. Little wonder so many so called clergy like to nosey up to big shot politicians and world leaders. Don't even begin to deceive yourself that you are taking the gospel to them. All you are doing is cuddling up to the throne of wickedness which legislates iniquity by law (Psalm 94:20), essentially endorsing them (the world), and at the same time weakening true Christian witness.

In the UK we have had bishops in the House of Lords for centuries, yet still experienced a steady descent into wickedness.

The Bible is crammed with warnings foretelling that lawlessness will abound, wickedness will increase and the like. Yet your considered (Christian?) response is legislate against it? Please.

The misguided belief that Christianity can prosper via politics is one of the enemy's biggest lies.

No, nobody went to sleep, what happened is the institutional church started to take it's lead from worldly trends. Hence political correctness, feminism and other such rot in the IC. The true church of God stands as a light in the World. By our godly conduct and righteous behaviour, we witness for Christ and glorify God.

Take a big picture view sir. I have cried long and hard against "religion" on this site. If only you could see that what you are championing will have its  ultimate outworking as a perverse form of Christian Sharia. Listen carefully, adherence to the law (forcefully or voluntarily) does not avail against the sin nature.

Sir, you thinking (to me at least) is a little muddled. Homosexuality is an outworking of human perverseness and God giving men over to their wickedness (Romans ch1). Can't you comprehend that you don't/can't legislate against what is judgement from on high.

So what if homosexuals can't marry? How many of the heterosexuals that can bother these days? So what if they've temporarily or permanently stymied stem cell research? between 500'000 and 1'000'000 people have been killed in Iraq II and in the UK estimates are that about 25% or 200'000 pregnancies per year are aborted.

The devil is throwing tiny red herrings sir. And the Christian political lobby is a big Seal, clapping it's flippers in glee.!

God bless.

@TV01,
Actually, this is going to be my last response to you. I can now understand why TayoD did not continue in a 'discussion' with you. In the beginning, I opined your understanding is limited and that you are forceful and not really intellectually inclined in your arguments, you've confirmed that with your rather intrepid and rude last post.
To your unmuddle thinking, homosexuality is a judgement from 'high', wonder why people will take a passage and twist it. Then every form of immorality is judgement from 'high' or God, that is a wicked thinking., if that is it, why bother to teach or pray people out of it? Or how is homosexuality different from other sins, it is the work of the flesh, pervesion of the devil
I dot not operate on the basis of any doctrine, as you are always quick tolable, other than the teachings of christ and his apostles in the bible.
You said, I am responding to your points, well I asked you to provide the scriptures you claimed are contrary to christians participating in politcs, but you've did not, while I supplied some in support. You now quoted Iraq and abortion figures. utterly confused.
You really need wisdom and teachings, you stated you dont believe in people in reference to some acclaimed teachers I mentioned;that has really restricted your thinking. Proverbs said 'in the multitude of counselling there is wisdom'. Get undertanding!!
Have a nice life.

Christian:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian

Politics:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politics

Let the civil discussion commence!

Faith without works is dead. We cannot just be praying for our country to be better, while all our leaders cannot do some real good because they are not christians. Unbelievers will most of the time do things their way, their own suitable style, which definitely will be against the advancement of the kingdom.

@TV01,

I can't believe how you have used the scriptures 'unscripturally' to arrive at your conclusions.  I will show you what I mean:

Bad idea, we have a divine mandate to fulfil and enough to keep us occupied. Politics, commerce and culture (the world) are effectively under the sway of the evil one.

Is your definition of the 'world' here yours or the Bible's?  According to my Bible the 'world' consists of the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes and the pride of life.  For whatever reasons, politics, commerce and culture are conspicously missing from God's list.  And what is our Divine mandate?  And what are the tools that we have to carry out that mandate?  Please show us where God told us not to use politics, commerce and culture as tools to carry out our mandate.

"My kingdom is not of this world", would be a good start.

What 'world' is Jesus talking about?  Is it the same 'world' that He died for?  Or was He talking about the world system of consisting of the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes and the pride of life?  Please make this very clear.

May I point out the symbolism of those that represent the state in scripture. I'm sure your close to unlimited scriptural knowledge means you know exactly who they are. "The Leaven of Herod".

You have either tried to totally mis-represent the scriptures here or you just showed how ignorant you are.  Here is the scriptures you refered to in full: Mark 8:15 And he charged them, saying, Take heed, beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, and of the leaven of Herod..  If we go by your interpretation, then Jesus must be telling us not to have anything to do with the Church as well.  On the contrary, He is advising us to desist from the 'leaven' of the church and the state, and not to stay away from the church and the state itself.

I'm also surprise that you felt Jesus never had any political clout.  Why were the Pharisees jealous of Him.  Why was the whole of Jerusalem moved on His triumphal entry?  What happened to Him with respect to the crucifixion was plainly because it must come to pass.  Someone who have thousands showing up at His meetings must surely carry His weight around politically.  That is a fact.

I will answer you in turn (please bear with me while I go get my fly swat ).

@ Havila, howdy. Two words for you sir - Heat & kitchen!

Bro' TayoD,

How now? Hope you are well. As ever you know I love to engage with you about our shared faith. And as always I take it you are up for the cut and thrust of the debate. Needless to say I continue to appreciate your willingness to discuss, time, effort and maturity in knowing that nothing is meant to be taken personally. And if we help each other along the Way all the better. With that in mind, I want you to know that I take your labelling me ignorant & terming my use of scripture  "unscriptural" in good humour. I'll take time to post a specific response to your last post later.

God bless

@TV01,
Well I have 1 phrase in response:-----> intellectually-inclined debate based on scriptures!!

@ TayoD, as promised.

Firstly your definition of the “World”

TayoD:

I can't believe how you have used the scriptures 'unscripturally' to arrive at your conclusions. I will show you what I mean:Is your definition of the 'world' here yours or the Bible's? According to my Bible the 'world' consists of the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes and the pride of life.

Really? You have reduced the Biblical concept and usage of the term “world” to Human lust. Misguided at best my brother. But let’s go to the Word.

Matthew 4:8 - Again, the devil took Him up on an exceedingly high mountain, and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory.

Mmmm. That would suggest that the world consists of kingdoms (states maybe?). That should nail it for any open minded observer. If a kingdom doesn’t consist of politics, commerce and culture, pray tell, what does it consist of?

Luke 9:25 - For what profit is it to a man if he gains the whole world, and is himself destroyed or lost

That would suggest that the world is not merely the lusts of men, but something much more tangible. No offence, but I would go as far as to say your definition is just plain wrong. You appear to have confused the desire/appetite/hunger or lust for a thing with the thing.

Even an ad-hoc response to your definition would totally blow it out of the water. So, for example, “He is the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world” – would suggest the world is also a body of people .

How about this;

John 12:31 - Now is the judgment of this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out

This world has a ruler. So if you try and work in its systems/kingdoms/politics, guess who you’re taking orders from?

The Bible also mentions we are not to be conformed to it!

Romans 12:2 - And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.

That would suggest its a system of things, a thought/reasoning process, behavioural patterns, mores, concepts, ideas. Need I go on?

And finally, THE WORLD HATES CHRISTIANS

John 15:18 -"If the world hates you, you know that it hated Me before it hated you. 19 - If you were of the world, the world would love its own. Yet because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you.
(also see John 17;13-21)

TayoD, not your customary insightful analysis.

But lets keep talking. I'll respond when I have more time, probably on a point by point basis.

God bless

Havila, are you a girl? It's only you said you'd made your last response?

TV01,

I like to have the Bible interprete itself.  That way, I know I am not bringing my prejudice to bear on what it says.  The Bible clearly defines what the 'world' consists of in 1 John 2:16  For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

If we go by this definition of the Bible, then maybe the scripture you quoted in Matthew 4:8 will be seen in a new light.  It is obvious that the devil wants Jesus to see what He will possess if He succumbs to the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life.  In order words, the devil wanted Jesus to have it the easy way, instead of going to the cross.  He wanted Jesus to see that the 'wordly' option aint so bad afterall, since the glories before Christ were obtained through that means.

If you are careful to read my response as well, you will find out that I also mentioned and differentiated between the world as used in 1 John 2:16, and the 'world' as used in John 3:16!  'The 'world' in 1 John 2:16 is an enemy of God, unredeemable and subject to eventual destruction.  The world in 1 John 3:16 goes beyond just humans, it includes the whole  of creation plus the kingdoms of this world.  While the kingdoms may be effectively in the devil's grip right now, that grip was shattered by Jesus' death and resurrection.  These kingdom was paid for by Christ's blood and will eventually be turned over to Him in full as we read in Revelation 11:15  , The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.  

P:S.
Since I am commanded to turn the other cheek when struck, I felt the need to do just that when you threw the first punch.  And knowing that you and I are one body, I decided to turn the other side of my body (You in this case), and returned the punch. 

TayoD,

Why do I get the impression that you are trying to use semantics to work your way out of this?

Never the less, I will persevere in trying to make my point. Allow me;

There are effectively 2 kingdoms (or two rulers if you please). Those submitted to theLord Jesus Christ and those in the devils kingdom and under his sway. All the kingdoms of the earth are under the sway of the evil one.

Trying to split definitions of the "world" may have it's place, but is pointless at this stage in this discussion. Let me explain;

The "world" (the place, kingoms of this earth), is inhabited by the "world" (the people who have not turned to the Lord, remember the Bible says they have been taken captive by the devil to do his will?). The lust for it and the pride of it are merely the manifestations of desiring this world and taking pride in being successful and lauded in it. There's nothing difficult about this.

Now back to the topic under discussion. How exactly can a christian be politically active, seek for office and remain uncompromised? What real change can they make? More importantly, how far can engaging in politics further the true mandate of the church (saving people out of the world and equipping them as saints of God in Christ?). What are the weapons of our warfare, because believe it or not, it's war, and you don't defeat the other side by becoming like them.

It simply cannot be done. Show me one example! I outlined in my previous post scenarios why this was so. Politics is ordered, structured and engaged in using strictures that are totally worldly. To be successful, you have to be worldy.

(I'm replying ad-hoc here so please bear with me).

You asked a question about the leaven of the Pharisees earlier. I was hoping that we could leave the elementary parts of this discussion and move on. But let me share a little of my thinking on this here and now.

Three warnings in the Bible about "leaven", pertaining to the;
1. Pharisees
2. Saducees
3. Herod

You asked this earlier;

Mark 8:15 And he charged them, saying, Take heed, beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, and of the leaven of Herod,   If we go by your interpretation, then Jesus must be telling us not to have anything to do with the Church as well.  On the contrary, He is advising us to desist from the 'leaven' of the church and the state, and not to stay away from the church and the state itself.

Let me ask you this;
Is the Lords warning redundant for us in this day? Well, I don't think so. I see types interpreted as follows;

1. Legalistic law bound religion (tithing, authority precepts, the clergy/laity split etc etc)
2. Liberal religion (Rejecting the bible as myth, political correctness, ecumenism, syncretism etc)
3. Compromise with the state (registration/incorporation of the church, charitable status, political   endorsement or involvement etc  etc. All yoking the Church to the State and in essence making the church subject to the state. A body can have just the one Head. if it's the state, it can't be the Lord)
   
Let's continue if you will, but I repeat; Christianity is not served by political engagement, indeed the urge to be take charge politically is driven by the scripture on which you based your initial interpretation of the world, namely lust and pride.

As ever, God bless